GET BENT!!! This is AMERICA!

[Twig]

That is in case my boss/Apt. manager looks at this site. :evilway: :flamer: You folks tell me if you think this is legal?

There are apts. in my complex that have crosses on the doors. Well, over my door is a tastefully presented sign ( a bumpersticker w/a small hand-painted forest scene background) that says Pagan Clergy. I AM clergy and consider my place a santuary to others, should they need it.

Today, I got a note saying I had to take it down. :mad: Does this sound like religious discrimination to anyone else!??

Thanks

Twig
:elf:

Wow, my hands are starting to shake. :mad:

[Myst]

Yup.

Slightly illegal.

[Yvonne Belisle]

I bet the ACLU would love to hear about this. :)

[Twig]

Here is the sign

[Old Witch]

'Bout as legal as a $3.00 bill!

[Twig]

the background is acrylic on paperboard.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Um, I hate to sound like I'm taking the other side (cause I know that'll get me beat up ;) ) but you might want to ask for a reason. Maybe they have a real reason for you to take it down. Either way it wouldn't kill you to ask. Don't just go bite their head off.

[CoolJ]

you could very well go to court with this, whoever gave you that notice is some1 that doesn't fully understand the concept of paganism,... he either is A. Racist and doesn't want to see that stuff or B. racist and doesn't want ppl to think there are "freaks" living in his building or ...etc...

grrr I'd love to give him a fat lip for that :mad:

If people can display things that represent the christian and jewish religion, i don't see one damn good reason for you to be prohibited from hanging up that sign...

i believe "freedom of religion" is in the declaration of independence, ur apt. manager is being an ass... this is not too legal you know...

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods** See what their policy is toward decoration of doorways, etc. If they have prohibitions against all religious symbols, then you don't really have a leg to stand on. If, however, they're making an arbitrary decision. . . then fight it, but fight it civilly.

Chibi's got the right idea. Find out what they're using to justify their request before you do anything drastic. :cool:

[WandererInGray]

*shrugs* They'd better have a real good reason.

If there's crosses on the other doors...or some kind of rule about no door decorations. *shakes head*

I'd definately go talk to them and get a reason first though. If they can't give you a good one, then point out the crosses on other people's doors. If they still persist, tell them you're taking the matter to the ACLU (*grins wickedly* Or don't, it's more fun to hit them when they're not looking)

Definately contact your local ACLU chapter, Twig....

www.aclu.org

Should be able to find a contact there for your area.

*smiles* Good luck, Hon. Keep us posted.

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
If they have prohibitions against all religious symbols, then you don't really have a leg to stand on.

*smiles* Maybe not as far as keeping his up....but if that's the case, they'd better make darn sure all the others are taken down as well.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth CoolJ:
you could very well go to court with this, whoever gave you that notice is some1 that doesn't fully understand the concept of paganism,... he either is A. Racist and doesn't want to see that stuff or B. racist and doesn't want ppl to think there are "freaks" living in his building or ...etc...
Umm, I know this is semantics. . . but there's nothing racist about discriminating against Pagans (or any other Religion). That would be religionist, or just plain bigoted.


If people can display things that represent the christian and jewish religion, i don't see one damn good reason for you to be prohibited from hanging up that sign...
And that's the question that's at the crux of the matter. If Joe next door can't put a cross on his door, then the complex's request is legally sound.

Of course, the best solution in the long term is to buy a home, which you can decorate more-or-less as you please.


i believe "freedom of religion" is in the declaration of independence, ur apt. manager is being an ass... this is not too legal you know...
**Shakes head** There's reference to "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," however, the Declaration of Independence to my knowledge has no mention of freedom of religion. And in any event, the Declaration of Independence is a historical document, not a legal one--the Constitution is what provides our government with its system of laws and checks and balances.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
**Shakes head** There's reference to "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," however, the Declaration of Independence to my knowledge has no mention of freedom of religion. And in any event, the Declaration of Independence is a historical document, not a legal one--the Constitution is what provides our government with its system of laws and checks and balances.

Incidentally if I remember correctly there was recently discussion of that in Political Pagan.

[CoolJ]

right, that's what i meant... ack, my brain's not working too well, i just ate A LOT and i could barely muster the brainpower to goto mysticwicks....

*wobbleS*..

well i know it's not in the declaration of independanc, it's in the constitution, *shackees head* ... but it is ... in the rights of every american citizen...sorry i just feel ... umm, dizzy, ... like i'm about to vomit... bah....

still, have a talk with him, ... let's see his reasons for his demands.... i think i'll go lay down for a while .... :sick:

[Chibi-Fallon]

Considering we don't really know anything at this point, and being non-judgmental is a good thing let's hold off on the lawyer, go to our happy place, and start drinking the decaf.
Maybe this isn't because the landlord is evil, cruel, and pretty much out to get us all. :eek: Maybe someone else complained and kept complaining and he/she's just asking to see if Twig would be a pal and just take it down. I think we all know the answer to that question ;) but whatever.
Twig, how long have you had this thing on your door?

[Phoenix Blue]

Goodness, man. . . of course you feel ill, you're trying to force your brain to work on a Friday. ;) Bookmarks, my friend. . . bookmarks!

[Dellit Tandannon]

whether they understand what paganism is or not, its still illegal.
twig, this is your apartment and your sign. this is freedom of expression and freedom of religion. i say leave the sign where it is!

[Myst]

Yeah, do you know if everyone has been asked to take theres down? Do you know if they have a legitimate (or seemingly legitimate) reason such as that it might be a fire hazard? Since the building is owned by someone else they could ask everyone to take down their signs (since the tenants don't own the building and it's private property of the landlords) perhaps..?

I don't know American law but that might be something to ask about.

[Twig]

Here's a picture of me! (I'm playing w/my webcam) Not posted in the right thread cause I got a mean streak going today!:devil: :bigredgri

Luv ya Myst!

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Chibi-Fallon
Maybe someone else complained and kept complaining and he/she's just asking to see if Twig would be a pal and just take it down.

*snorts* Well if that's the case, I'd say whomever complained is SOL.
If they don't like it they're free to a)not look at it or b)move to a different housing complex.

If Twig had porno pictures tacked up to his door (:D Know you wouldn't Twig....) then I could see the offense.

People have the right to be "offended" by our religion...they don't have the right to ask us to muzzle ourselves.

[Myst]

haha didn't work!

:D

[Chibi-Fallon]

Alright, the landlord is really the supreme evil of the universe out to get us all! Happy Wanderer?
Remember "After you've eliminated the impossible whatever remains, no matter how improbable is the truth." And considering we've eliminated nothing, maybe it's a building wide "get that crap off your doors" thing. For all we know. You're guess is no better then mine.

[Twig]

Twig, how long have you had this thing on your door?

Over 3 years!


maybe it's a building wide "get that crap off your doors" thing

Nope! I'm his employee as well as a tenant. I got this note on my work order board.

[shnen]

Twig,
I think you have a just cause to go and ask what it's all about. Don't judge too quickly. Then once they give you a good reason, who knows, it might be???, or it might now, in which case then you can lose it! ;)

Or else hang a Pentacle on your door...:)

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Chibi-Fallon
Alright, the landlord is really the supreme evil of the universe out to get us all! Happy Wanderer?


*dryly* Excuse me....could someone please hand me some scotch tape to reattach my head?

I didn't say the landlord was the supreme evil....what I said was it seems from the information that Twig has given us, he probably didn't have any other reason to ask for it's removal than someone's complaint.
That means no legal reason for it.

I have not advocated beating the crappy out of the landlord, or raising a big rukus about it.

What I suggested was that he go talk to the landlord first. Which I believe is what you suggested.

Frankly I'd appreciate an apology for biting my head off when we agree on the topic.

[Twig]

he's a born again christian.

And yeah, my first post was a rant, I'm sorry. I'll politely refuse (in writing ;) ) and we'll see where it goes from there. but DAMN :( that made me mad.

I'm going to my happy place now. :cool: Hehehe

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[Theres]

Chibi-Fallon quoting Sherlock Holmes? cool!

Twig, you really need to investigate this further. perhaps it's a 'code' thing. you know, no bumper stickers, etc. would he mind if it were polished brass?
you absolutely do have legal recourse, but at what cost. you don't want to lose your place! and while he may not be able to evict you for this, if he really wants you out he'll find something.
and for whoever suggested that you should buy your own house and do what you want, well some of us don't have that option financially.
but you do need to talk to this guy and find out what is up, especially if it's been there for three years.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Originally posted by Twig


Over 3 years!



Maybe this is a dumb question but why are the caring now? They've had 3 years. I know people are always saying how long it takes to get stuff fixed and all that good stuff.... ;)

[Chibi-Fallon]

Originally posted by WandererInGray

Frankly I'd appreciate an apology for biting my head off when we agree on the topic.

Well, I'd appreciate it if you didn't snort at my ideas. :rolleyes:

[WandererInGray]

I wasn't snorting at YOUR idea, Chibi.

I was snorting at the idea that Twig should take a religious symbol down because it offended someone.

I'm sorry you chose to take it as such. But it's still no excuse for biting my head off.

Especially since, as Twig just said...the man's a born-again Christian. Makes the whole issue of him protesting Twig's sign a little more questionable.

[Myst]

:rolleyes:

[Chibi-Fallon]

Well the way to get me to apologize isn't to insult me first.
And another Holmes quote for the whole born-again bit:
"Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing,"

[Myst]

Guys.

Let's stop bickering now please.

Thanks.

[Theres]

and as Holmes might have said when he was arguing with someone online..."how can you build on such quicksand?"
so let's all kiss and makeup now. it's easy to be misunderstood in such a limited communication as this, so it's best not to first assume the worst.

and by the way, how can i possibly have a 'Happy Place' with DECAF!? aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

[Myst]

Shall we get back on topic now...?

Twig : let us know how this pans out. I can understand you're being annoyed! I don't blame you for thinking that, and I think it's very good that now you can look at it rationally and carefully. Nothing wrong with being angry, eh? :)

[Lavender]

I haven't posted here yet but I hope it all works out ok for you, Twig. Hope it will just blow over with no fuss for you.

[flar7]

If you work for him, that makes it even trickier, eh?
Good Luck.

[gunner]

"the Declaration of Independence is a historical document, not a legal one--the Constitution is what provides our government with its system of laws and checks and balances."

no, it's both, a historical document and the literal supreme law of the land which governs all lesser law, it is a legal document. this is why we have a supreme court. congress may pass laws but if those laws violate the basic law of the constitution they are null and void and the supreme court can and will overrule them. if you read the first amendment it bars congress from making any law "establishing" a religion, this forbids congress from declaring any church as the "official" religion of the united states. as to twig's situation, he may have a case if he has been singled out by this landlord while others, christians, jews, etc. are permitted to display their symbols then it is discrimination and if the landlord will not see reason then a talk with a lawyer is in order as well as a sit down with the aclu. even if they do no more than send him a "nasty letter" it may have an effect. good luck twig, "non lessi illegitimus carborundum"

[Theres]

i think it was the Declaration of Independence that was being refered to as not being a legal document. nobody is arguing about the Constitution.
but again, having legal recourse is great, but the practicality of using it might be questionable. as an old rebel and card-carrying anarchist, i can't believe i'm saying this. but you have to choose your fights carefully. Twig, do you want to risk eviction to be a martyr at the altar of religious freedom?

[Earthcup]

I agree with checking the policy and then fighting it but what I really wanted to say was cool sign! :D Hope you get to keep it!

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Greenman:
i think it was the Declaration of Independence that was being refered to as not being a legal document. nobody is arguing about the Constitution.
Right; the Declaration of Independence was the document I meant to call non-legal. :) Sorry about the confusion!

[kblackthorne]

Here's a question:

Have the other residents been asked to remove their religious symbols as well?

(Maybe you're not being singled out -- maybe EVERYONE's been told they must come down.)

Check out the library. They should have manuals on hand with the current tennant/landlord laws for your area, or be able to help you find them. There may be information in there to help.

In my experience, when a landlord is doing something illegal, mailing them letters (not going in person or handing it to them, but MAILING it) in which you quote the law they are breaking has a marvelous effect. And local (state/county/municipality) code probably prohibits them from religious discrimination as well.

Get some photos of those crosses -- preferably showing the apt.# as well. Include photocopies in your letter. (NOT the original prints.)

Send a copy (openly acknowledged by choice, or not if you're feeling sneaky) to the local fair housing regulation agency & the ACLU, as well as your landlord, pointing out the illegality of their request, and politely refusing to comply.

[Laiste]

Twig I sure do hope things work out for you! You should be able to keep that sign up if everyone else is allowed to keep up their religious symbols! Step lightly concidering this person is not only your landlord but also your boss! I would hate to see this symbol of your religion cause more harm to you than good! Let us know how it works out!

[Garnet]

Twig...does your landlord have a Christian symbol on his door?
This reminds me of the time guys at work told a supervisor to make me take down my Playgirl centerfold because they were offended by a pic of a naked man. It was on the inside of my locker door in my work area, & the door was open only briefly because leaving it open interrupted traffic. Anyhoo...in their work area, they had a dozen Playboy centerfolds mounted behind plastic where they could be seen 24-7. I told the supervisor that when their 'girls' came down, so would my boy. The supervisor smiled & said, "I told them you'd say that." End of discussion.
My point being (you guys didn't think I actually had one) that if it's a building policy, he has every right to make you remove it, unless it's a new rule & your sign is 'granfathered' somehow. If he's being a religious bigot, yeah, turn him into the Fair Housing Commission or maybe a tenants' group, if you have one.
But I'm with Chibi & the others on this. Make sure there isn't some kind of rule about it. But nothing prevents you from asking "Is this a rule in writing that I can read or is this just your own illegal religious bigotry that I can sue you into homelessness over?"

[Wyrdsister]

Please keep us posted on this, Twig. Have you talked to your landlord/employer, yet? Did he become a born-again Christian since you put up the sign (i.e. in the last 3 years)?

Good luck to you, friend! And keep that sign up!! :)

Wyrdsister

[faeriedust]

any new updates? i hope it all works out for you!!!!!!!!!

[Sequoia]

uhg! I hope everything works out well for you. It's really annoying when people just out of the blue come up with these things. . . -_-; reminds me of my mom. Pretty much pagan. And in fact, is now acting 'normal'. but not a week ago, the woman was ranting on about the evils of D&D, role playing, paganism, and witches and satan worshippers. . . . maybe she needs prozac. Can your landlord spare some?

[Illuminatus]

This is really a non-issue Twig. If they do force you to take down your sign, it's a simple matter for you to force your landlord (through threat of lawsuit) to make the other tennants take down their precious christmas decorations when yule rolls around. The threat alone should suffice.

[StarryDancer]

Waaal...I do believe Twig said the man is also his EMPLOYER ? That doth complicate things justly!

:woah: :woah: :woah:

[Persephone]

There's a possibility that the request to remove your sign is the result of a misunderstanding. I have run across many people who think that "Pagan" means "Hates God". Really. So maybe whoever complained thinks it's a statement against God & an explanation would resolve the problem.

[kblackthorne]

Point.

I recently had a co-worker find out I was Pagan. They asked me what that meant, and I gave a short explanation, which included phrases such as, "non-Christian Deities" and "worship".

She acted as if she understood everything I said, until I was all done. Then she looked at me, kind of puzzled, and said, "So you don't believe in God at all?"

In the end, we did achieve understanding. But it took some work!

[kblackthorne]

And religious discrimination is just as illegal in the workplace as it is when applied to housing.

The fact that this guy is Twig's boss actually gives Twig more leverage, not less.

One more angle for a lawsuit to come from.

[StarryDancer]

True, Katherine -- if you're in the mood for all the bullhockey that comes with being involved in a lawsuit. Been there, done that, NEVER AGAIN! (and we won, even...)

[flar7]

remember, twig said he works for this man also.

[Epona44]

If your landlord orders you to take down the sign, then he is in violation of your First Ammendment rights under the Constitution of these United States.



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The American Civil Liberties Union does not generally charge if it takes a case, Twig.

This is a work and housing matter, as well. Either they make the same rule for everyone, or you should be allowed to put your sign back up.

In addition, unless things have changed, the United States Army recognizes Paganism and Wicca as religions and has chapters listed in the Chaplin's manual.

I'm with you on this one.

[Twig]

After 10 days. I don't want to say too much here. Ummm, I will say that this was just another prime example of the way this man and I interact. OOOOHHH he STORIES I can tell you after 6+ years of being here!

Like the time when he called me a "Incompetent f****** idiot" to my face......but that's another story. ;)

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[shnen]

so no word yet? how frustrating...
he seems to be very mean and inconsiderate...
your in my thuoghts.:)