Having doubts about paganism

[arctic splash]

I'm having doubts. Is anyone else out there having doubts? It would help to hear of other people who are.

I'm not having doubts about my path, but I wonder if paganism is still a good descriptor of my path. I've started to question whether I really fit in here. I feel a disconnect between myself and other people who call themselves pagan, and I wonder what it is that brings us together. Sometimes it feels like it's something superficial, like the terminology we use, or the sorts of rituals we like to participate in, or maybe our propensity to follow individual paths (but that alone is hardly enough to warrant calling it paganism).

For me it's important in a spiritual community to be able to connect with others who share my values, who have similar goals that their spiritual path is helping them achieve. But what are our values? What are our goals? If we don't share at least compatable visions, what is the value of pagan community? These are my questions. What can/does bring us together?

Part of the reason I feel out of touch with other pagans is that so many seem to describe their spirituality in terms of what they believe. They believe in this particular pantheon, or they believe magic works in this particular way, or they have all these theological ideas about divinity. I find myself asking, "Yeah... but what's the point?" I mean, it's perfectly alright to have these kinds of ideas, but I'm much more interested in what people experience. I don't follow a pantheon. I don't have a clue what I believe theologically about divinity except that it exists and it's awe-inspiring and I'd rather just be open to the mystery. My spirituality is based on experience, and then ACTION: experiencing human things, like struggle and awe and joy and pain and hope and beauty and ecstasy and connection with other people and the natural world... and then acting in the world in accordance with my values. I've found it doesn't matter what anyone BELIEVES. I feel so much spiritual kinship with those who claim not to be spiritual who are also receptive to these common human experiences, and sometimes much less with pagans who have these beliefs but are less perceptive to these experiences, especially experiences of interconnection.

The reason I initially identified as pagan is that nature and celebration of the natural cycles are very important to me spiritually. Though I know a lot of people here would say their spirituality is also nature-based, I still feel pretty alone in this. What's important to me is a connection with the actual earth, putting my hands in the soil, planting a garden, doing whatever I can to halt the ecological devestation of the planet. I don't believe ritual or intention makes much meaningful difference unless accompanied by action. So I wonder if some people use paganism or magic an excuse not to act. It seems that way. I'm much more impressed with a spirituality that involves taking real action in the world than in one that creates some impressive rituals and manipulates energy. Sometimes, when people talk about their earth-based spiritualities, I wonder if they're talking about the same earth that's right HERE. Can you say you have a real connection with the earth if you're only connected to it in some mental realm? Of course the mental is important, the rituals are important, but it doesn't feel balanced enough to me...

Most of the stuff that inspires me is not from pagan books. It's from pagan-influenced Christian writers like Matthew Fox, or socially/ecologically conscious Jewish writers like Michael Lerner, or psychologists like R.D. Laing and Carl Rogers, or people like Jeremy Taylor (who's done all sorts of impressive stuff with dreamwork) or people who write about interconnection like Thich Nhat Hanh, or qi-gong and body-mind healing, or books like Michael (?) Cohen's Reconnecting with Nature which has all sorts of exercises for deepening our relationship with the earth, or books on indigenous traditions, or herbalism. Strangely, hardly any of these writers and teachers who have so inspired me are themselves pagan. Some of them, like me, have pagan and shamanic and indigenous influences, but none of them identify particularly with paganism. I just haven't found much in pagan-oriented books that I've found to be spiritually INSPIRING. There are the intro books on the wheel of the year and circle casting and correspondences and things like that, but I don't really need anyone telling me how to cast a circle or why it's important or what correspondences to use, etc. Those sorts of things are reference, at best... and I do things my own way. I just wonder, sometimes, where is the wisdom? Or perhaps a lot of these writers choose to expand outside pagan markets to reach wider audiences...

I just hope there's someone else out there who's had similar doubts to the ones I've expressed. Doubt is good sometimes. I'm hoping this will help me connect a little more with some of you!

[dragonprincess]

I read this whole thing, Moonstone. And i tend to agree, on some points. However, I can only sympathise with other points. I personally tend to keep my spirituality to myself, to me, it's between my and my deity. I don't really try to connect with others of like mind, whenever I have, I've ended up feeling either inferior, or dissapointed. I like coming here for the comraderie, and the hopes that i can help someone who has a question that's in my area of expertise.
I certainly hope that you find what your looking for, remember this site isn't just for pagans, it's for anyone, Xian, pagan, wiccan, hindu, whatever. Don't leave, ok?

[ShadowcatX]

Doubting is natural, I've been in a slump myself, half considering myself athiest when I think about it over much. It doesn't bother me too much though, I figure I'll either figure it out eventually, or I'll experience it a little more eventually, so I'll know in the end. To me faith is important in that it's good for getting you through hard times and inspiring you in good times, and so long as it does that the rest (God, Goddess, Gods and Goddesses, magic, magick, etc.) are just trappings.

A friend of mine once said "Churches and religions are horrible things and can ruin a perfectly good spirituality." (The word Churches wasn't meant to single out the Christian Religion, he meant holy places in general.)

As Dragon Princess pointed out, this place isn't just for pagans, it's for everyone, don't feel you need to leave as your religion changes and / or evolves, just move forward with it and if you feel the need share your wisdom with others here.

[stella01904]

For me it's important in a spiritual community to be able to connect with others who share my values, who have similar goals that their spiritual path is helping them achieve. But what are our values? What are our goals? If we don't share at least compatable visions, what is the value of pagan community? These are my questions. What can/does bring us together?
There is no community. If you are looking for one and you are fortunate, you may find a little group of like-minded people someplace. But there is no "pagan community." This board tells you that much.

[Dio]

Like you and others said, it's ok to doubt. You can't truly be honest with yourself and your beliefs if you can't seriously analyze and question them.

As far as the connection you look for, why does it have to be the spiritual path you identify with that offers you the most inspiration and fulfillment? There is so much truth and beauty in the world that to think that you can only find it within the context of your personal beliefs is just so limiting. That doesn't mean you can't still identify yourself as pagan. To me, being a pagan is about having my own individual truth and searching for knowledge in the world around me and gaining wisdom by living my life and teaching others what I accept as truth. It's about being able to change and discard those beliefs that hold me back, and about embracing additional truths that I have found work better for me. I find that my beliefs have solidified even more by doing so. What I choose to call myself has nothing to do with that.

I think that as long as you are honest with yourself, whatever you choose to identify yourself as shouldn't even matter. Truth can be found everywhere. To only believe that you can find truth within the context of one path, you limit yourself.

To me, it sounds like you're on the right track. I hope you can find peace in your doubting. :)

[forestrangergrrl]

i feel similarly to you moonstone, not exactly, but similarly. that's part of being human - everyone has different ways of looking at things. most of what you said i agree with and it's how i look at life in general, but then again on some things i didn't see eye to eye w/ you.
yes, i do have doubts along the way, especially lately when nothing seems to be going right. or when one thing goes correctly, 15 others go to hades in a handbasket. it's natural to doubt, even when life is going great.
i hope this reply made some sense. probably not but, hey, where's the fun in that? lol!

[RainInanna]

I'm having doubts. Is anyone else out there having doubts? It would help to hear of other people who are.

I'm not having doubts about my path, but I wonder if paganism is still a good descriptor of my path.

Absolutely. I can identify with much in your post. On one hand you seem to ask whether Paganism is a label that applies due to orthodoxy (beliefs) or orthopraxy (practices). On the other, either way it doesn't matter, because Paganism doesn't have common beliefs *or* practices. As you point out, we don't have common values and goals. What is the commonality that makes us all Pagan? Most of us can only define Pagan by what we think it is not (ie. Judaism, Christianity, Islamic belief). We can't all identify as nature-worshippers, as followers of ancient religions or modern, or any other common denominator.

My theory is that "Pagan community" simply is "a group of people who sometimes get together and talk about spirituality that isn't entirely Judaic, Christian, or Islamic". It doesn't have shared values, goals, practices, beliefs, ethics, or anything else. For most people it doesn't have to, they can continue talking to others with different values, goals, etc. because they enjoy the discussion. They don't feel the need to work together towards something, they just like being here to share and learn.

There are organizations and communities that do share common values and goals, and I am sure you can find one out there to match yours. But it will be characterized by it's common goal or value, not the word Paganism.


I don't have a clue what I believe theologically about divinity except that it exists and it's awe-inspiring and I'd rather just be open to the mystery.

I think many of us can say that. I can certainly tell you what I *think* about divinity in this moment, but more importantly "it exists and it's awe-inspiring and I'd rather just be open to the mystery". Truth is I really have no idea what Divinity really is, but I like to think about it.


What's important to me is a connection with the actual earth, putting my hands in the soil, planting a garden, doing whatever I can to halt the ecological devestation of the planet.

Have you been looking in the Pantheism subforum? There is definitely space on the Pantheistic spectrum for those who are more focused on physical connection and action without spiritual belief.


Can you say you have a real connection with the earth if you're only connected to it in some mental realm? Of course the mental is important, the rituals are important, but it doesn't feel balanced enough to me...

I think you have an excellent point. Certainly people feel ritual and magic are their own ways of acting within the universe, and do feel that action on the mental is manifested in the physical (ie. the earth that is right here), but I certainly see some people (including me!) who forget the balance of also acting right in the physical. We get all caught up in theory sometimes when there's so much to do in reality!


I just wonder, sometimes, where is the wisdom?

I can understand your thinking here too. For me, spirituality is an ongoing way of life - not a ritual and religion, but inspiration, love, and the vibrancy of life. It doesn't just come with an athame and a cauldron, or the right Pagan book. Spirituality to me is about the joy of living, the awe of the Divine, constantly growing towards something more. So it comes every word and piece of art and idea that inspires you. To me the wisdom is everywhere. It just may be Pagan books don't hold the wisdom you need.

[Tabbykitty]

I'm having doubts. Is anyone else out there having doubts?

its normal to question what one is into now and again..... that means one's mind is still functioning... and that's a good thing! :)



I wonder if paganism is still a good descriptor of my path. I've started to question whether I really fit in here. I feel a disconnect between myself and other people who call themselves pagan, and I wonder what it is that brings us together.......

It is quite impossible to find more than 5 people who have exactly the SAME view on any definition in spirituality. Spirituality is a highly personal thing and it really shouldnt matter if no one else seems to fit into another person's definition of "paganism" for instance.....

For me at least.... I can say I am here.... NOT to find another person who shares my beliefs... but to find a place where I can read views on current topics in alternative religion and sometimes.... air my own views and problems. Granted, I might not find a sympathetic ear.... heck, i have even been told off AFTER I have shared my experience.......but it still allows me to express what I feel......



For me it's important in a spiritual community to be able to connect with others who share my values, who have similar goals that their spiritual path is helping them achieve. But what are our values? What are our goals? If we don't share at least compatable visions, what is the value of pagan community? These are my questions. What can/does bring us together?

I think MW at least is a place for people to meet, chat, gather info, make friends..... and express themselves... thus it welcomes a whole stew of many different faiths....

As said before... it is HARD to find even 5 people with whom you can find complete agreement on certain fundemental definitions....... if a person really really wanted to have the spiritual fellowship of others of similar faith.... MW may not be the best place to find it.....

I mean.... personally..... i don't agree with the definitions and views given by about 80% of the folks here... but I respect their right to air those views. And Im glad to read them because it allows me to get an idea as to the types of alternative belief-systems there are out there..... and who knows.... someone might occasionally mention some resource or information I AM actually looking for :D

If I really wanted to er.....find others of like minded spirituality..... I could always go back to the community of those who follow my path in my country. :) I certainly don't expect to see them here :)



My spirituality is based on experience, and then ACTION: experiencing human things, like struggle and awe and joy and pain and hope and beauty and ecstasy and connection with other people and the natural world... and then acting in the world in accordance with my values.

actually i have to say that this is where my own path is slightly similar to yours. The beliefs I have are based on what I observe and experience..... but thats where the similarity ends unfortunately....

I do think it is important for a person to actually be able to say.... even in simple words... what it is he or she believes in.... whether it is in terms of named gods...... or just universal concepts and a belief in energies and archetypes...... I believe when a person is able to explain what he or she believes in.... it is a sort of indication that the person is clear about the spiritual path he or she is taking..... understanding why he or she made certain decisions when walking that path.

I have seen many belief-systems where people dont know WHY it is they perform certain rituals, chants and practices...... ultimately, when they make life-affecting decisions based on their beliefs..... the decisions were often badly made.....

This may not be true for you.... however.... it is true in my experience.... that is why I hold this view.



I don't believe ritual or intention makes much meaningful difference unless accompanied by action. So I wonder if some people use paganism or magic an excuse not to act.

I have to disagree with your views about ritual and intention...... Where I live, I have seen rituals and spells that have completely altered the life of individuals.... whether it was through outright domination, curses or other forms of manipulation......

when you've seen furniture move without being touched by any physical hand.... or look on when someone is repeatedly slashed by a sharp machete without getting a single scratch..... or see with your own eyes an entire park quite literally whither up and die, after a ritual involving a dark entity....... you'll really start to wonder what's truly real......

I don't doubt for one minute the ability of ritual and intention to change the nature of our physical world.

Still...... I don't disagree with your observation that perhaps there is a lack of actual action by certain practitioners.... when the easiest way out of a certain situation is through normal, physical means.....




I just haven't found much in pagan-oriented books that I've found to be spiritually INSPIRING. There are the intro books on the wheel of the year and circle casting and correspondences and things like that, but I don't really need anyone telling me how to cast a circle or why it's important or what correspondences to use, etc. Those sorts of things are reference, at best... and I do things my own way. I just wonder, sometimes, where is the wisdom?

Actually I havent found a pagan-oriented book that was worth reading.... and yes, I do agree with you on that point..... about the wisdom.

I think for some writers, the attempt to reach out to a wide audience MAY have diluted some of the knowledge held within a particular path. However, recently, when I picked up yet book from the pagan section of the bookstore.... I was a little disappointed that the book tried to mesh together practices from several paths/traditions without really getting into an in-depth discussion about any of the traditions used or the WHYs behind certain practices that were mentioned.

so yes, we agree on some things but differ on others.......
Chances are, you'll likely meet quite a lot of posters like me :) hope that answers some of your questions.

[LostSheep]

I think you'd probably be unlikely to find two people who call themselves pagans who agree completely about everything; and i think that's encouraging, that not everyone does think alike, follows exactly the same doctrine. I don't follow any particular doctrine, do rituals or anything, and i think that's the difference from the major religions, that you don't have to. Probably some might see you as a heretic; do what i do and say poo to them.

Does a "community" mean that everyone has to believe the same thing, do the same thing? Can't a community accommodate people who don't do exactly the same thing as everyone else or think the same things are essential to be a "true believer", and isn't that healthier than if everyone just has to obey a laid down set of dogma?
I don't have a clue what I believe theologically about divinity except that it exists and it's awe-inspiring and I'd rather just be open to the mystery. I think that's all you need really.

[cheddarsox]

Most of the stuff that inspires me is not from pagan books. It's from pagan-influenced Christian writers like Matthew Fox, or socially/ecologically conscious Jewish writers like Michael Lerner, or psychologists like R.D. Laing and Carl Rogers, or people like Jeremy Taylor (who's done all sorts of impressive stuff with dreamwork) or people who write about interconnection like Thich Nhat Hanh, or qi-gong and body-mind healing, or books like Michael (?) Cohen's Reconnecting with Nature which has all sorts of exercises for deepening our relationship with the earth, or books on indigenous traditions, or herbalism. Strangely, hardly any of these writers and teachers who have so inspired me are themselves pagan. Some of them, like me, have pagan and shamanic and indigenous influences, but none of them identify particularly with paganism. I just haven't found much in pagan-oriented books that I've found to be spiritually INSPIRING. There are the intro books on the wheel of the year and circle casting and correspondences and things like that, but I don't really need anyone telling me how to cast a circle or why it's important or what correspondences to use, etc. Those sorts of things are reference, at best... and I do things my own way. I just wonder, sometimes, where is the wisdom? Or perhaps a lot of these writers choose to expand outside pagan markets to reach wider audiences...




I have had very much the same experience. Most of the published written works I have found most useful tend not to be pagan. I suspect this is a "lag" time issue. Most of the pagan books seem to focus on history, beliefs, and ritual, and less on inner spirituality. Other faiths have more books on this subject.

Same with music, art, etc. The stuff that most reaches me spiritually, tends not to be "pagan". This could also be due to what is currently defined as "pagan" by the culture, including booksellers/publishers. Pagan is culturally defined right now as Wicca, witchy, tarot, elves, fairies, goth. None of which speak to my inner spirituality.

Due to this sort of thing, I don't primarily define myself as "pagan", it isn't a very useful term. It means too many different things to people.

I'm a human first, an American citizen, a woman, a spiritual person, a pantheist...all these seem to have more to do with who I am and how I think than the amorphous label "pagan".
I've also reached middle age, and really, after 40, little things like labels just stopped mattering much. I read, eat, live, do what works, hang the origin. That is the biggest plus I've found in ageing, I just don't care about so many things that I used to let bog me down.

I just fell in love with a book on ancient spiritual practices. it is unabashedly christian.

It makes no difference to me. I'm not invested in being "pagan", whatever that means...over the years I've learned it means very little. so I've let it fall away, and haven't missed it.

cheddar

[LadyWinter]

I have been gone for a few months and I see upon my return alot of this usage of the word "people"...can someone direct me to a definition or a post supplying the definition for all this? I have never considered myself People....though I have people who know people...

as for having doubts that is what makes a person grow

Winter
looking for the people in the snow

[Zephyrstorm]

"people" pops up under the work setting. If you go into your usercp, you can turn off the work-safe mode and see the proper word: pagan/paganism.

I think that's what you're getting at anyway.

btw, welcome back LadyWinter. :waves:

[LordHelmet]

Well, 'religion' never really got to be religious (a few places where pushing that way or minor little bits of it) until a little before Catholicism kicked in. Paganism got popular for describing those who really just didn't get religious.

For instance, most pre christianity didn't 'believe' in their Gods any more than any of their other views on life.

Basicly, religious people are those who believe a a movement or belief system without scientific or substantial evidence.

Atheist covers people who seriously doubt Deity or the supernatural, and have nothing to do with it.

Agnostics don't know and or don't care.

Pagans don't see it as a matter of beliefs, we believe whatever we do for whatever reason, but it's for reasons that make sense to us. Our spirituality has nothing to do with faith in teachings and is more a matter of art.

Like ...
Running Wolf "... so when the spirit of the owl came to Bear Paw he knew the coyote had tricked him..."

Modern Western thinker "But, how do we know it was an owls spirit? Maybe he just got smart."
"Huh, ... I don't know, why do you care?"

[LordHelmet]

"people" pops up under the work setting. If you go into your usercp, you can turn off the work-safe mode and see the proper word: pagan/paganism.

I think that's what you're getting at anyway.

btw, welcome back LadyWinter. :waves:

Please tell me your joking! I looked on my cp and I didn't see any such option, is it really that bad for some people?

[Tranquility]

I don't consider myself Pagan. If at all possible, try not to get too caught up in labels, because eventually you'll find they're all pretty useless. If there's one thing i've come to terms with, it's that I don't really know what "path" I follow. I'm a spiritual mutt. It would be unfair to categorize myself or my path (make it finite) when it's quite the anti-thesis! Follow what you feel is right, and if people ask you what religion you are, honestly answer "I don't know.. but what I DO Believe in is such and such, and what I DO follow is such and such." Try to piece things together from there. I think humanity somehow finds refuge behind titles and labels, so that everything is all neat and tidy. Realistically, life's not all neat and tidy, put into boxes, and pushed in a drawer. Don't limit yourself, just be open to experience and expression. Good luck, and never stop questioning life :).

[LostSheep]

Please tell me your joking! I looked on my cp and I didn't see any such option, is it really that bad for some people?

it's in the little box down at the bottom of the screen, whatever page you're on, in the red bar at the bottom, which usually says "normal".

[LordHelmet]

it's in the little box down at the bottom of the screen, whatever page you're on, in the red bar at the bottom, which usually says "normal".

aaawwww awwwwww


oh no...




wait... let me check this out

pagan paganism heathen mystic mystical magick magic magickal magical wiccan wicca druid druidic druidism shaman esoteric spell cast witch withcraft craft spellcraft

... hmmm

christian budhist islam muslam

Edit : (turns on work mode)
turns into ...

People peopleism heathen mystic mystical magick magic magickal magical wiccan wicca druid druidic druidism shaman esoteric spell cast witch withcraft craft spellcraft

So apperantly it's ok to be a wiccan darksided heathen and devil worshiping spell caster that was sucked into the demons corner as a kid while playing D&D, just so long as your not pagan. hmmm.... this format protection could use a little work. (BTW, if your sheilding your coworkers from the terrifying reality, don't edit nething with pagan in it because it won't say people then)

Edit 2: Also, the sidebar is still selling dark omens and unholy trinkets.

[Tanya]

I've been disgussedly beating my head against this wall as well moonstone... and lately I just op out of those discussions... they just make me mad and get me flamed.... I'm gonna be me, and not share it.

[LordHelmet]

Confuscios man say (only the kicker is it's actualy a core confucious principle) A person is greater then an ideal, and an ideal is nothing without a person to follow it.