Understanding the Mother (Triple Goddess)

[moonmorgan]

I know that you don't have to have children to go through the Mother phase of the Triple Goddess, but I am having trouble thinking of signs that you are going through the phase otherwise.

For example the Maiden is usually before "doing it" and before your body is fully developed and the crone is Menopause. So what signifies you've hit the Mother stage? Getting married? What if you don't get married?

Help!

[tarotgirljess]

hmm to me the mother part would be when you realize others matter too and you employ empathy. you care for those around you and nurture relationships.
It's the stage in your life where you are no longer a child but a woman grown. no longer as selfish as the maiden was.
make sense

[inkywitch]

hmm to me the mother part would be when you realize others matter too and you employ empathy. you care for those around you and nurture relationships.
It's the stage in your life where you are no longer a child but a woman grown. no longer as selfish as the maiden was.
make sense

Absolutely agreed.

Getting married, or falling pregnant are just icing on the cake.

[RainInanna]

I agree as well. The maiden is inward focused, the mother is more outward focused. Her sight has moved towards nurturing and protecting others. She takes a greater responsibility to interact with her family, loved ones, community, environment, etc., whereas the maiden was more focused on experiences and sensory input.

Hope that makes sense?

[moonmorgan]

Thanks for the answers so far, this helps a lot. I still look forward to some other views.

[Glory]

I connect the Triple Goddess as phases of the moon, and the Mother is the full moon, so what does that represent? It is fulfillment and illumination. In terms of women specifically, I disagree that it has to do with marriage - I feel that it is when a woman reaches her personal peak. She is content in the aspects of life that matter to her, and for many, this can mean motherhood, but it definitely doesn't have to.

Physically... I think she is comfortable with her body, she menstruates, she makes love, and she gives. I agree that a maiden is inward, focusing on herself as she develops, but a mother is developed and now she can focus on everyone else.

[_Banbha_]

The neo-Pagan embrace of maiden, mother, and crone concept is something I've always wondered at. It seems so limiting and confining to develop a meme based on limited roles in phases. These roles don't have historical or cultural relevance in the deities of 'Celtic' cultures which are part of my belief system. I know there is some rare precedence to the concept in ancient Greece but I'm wondering about the contemporary neo-Pagan meme which attaches it to most any triad, whether it applies accurately or not.

I don't understand why all the Mother Goddess charcteristics are always tender, selfless and giving with the Mother phase. Why is that? Why should she focus outward or on everyone else? Is this a healthy example to aspire to? And importantly, what specific deities is that supposed to represent?

It's implied that maiden's are selfish because they do not employ these characteristics and yet are given an excuse for youths sake. Isn't this rather judgemental and regimented?

It seems an attempt at saying what's right and proper for a woman to behave at any given age within a rather narrow guideline of gender specific roles during specfic outlined phases. That it is embraced by many who profess to be in a spirituality or religion that is claimed to more inclusive and open is a bit confusing to me. Can anyone explain?

[RainInanna]

Excellent, some points to draw in more discussion! I always love these type of discussions because it helps me consider how I feel about the sacred and archetypes. There's often discussion on specific deities and that's great but I really can bite into this subject :)



It seems so limiting and confining to develop a meme based on limited roles in phases.

I don't find it limiting and confining, simply one paradigm that is inspiring to many and can be adopted or ignored at one's desire. If one does not find it useful, they are welcome to not use it. If one does not agree with my opinion on how it works, they can and will modify it to fit their spirituality. There isn't "one true Maiden Mother Crone concept" that all must follow, just a general idea that clearly many enjoy and use.


I'm wondering about the contemporary neo-Pagan meme which attaches it to most any triad, whether it applies accurately or not.

Again, just my humble opinion, but I'm in the "if it works, use it" kind of camp. It's useful to me to consider Isis an expression of Mother, so I do.


I don't understand why all the Mother Goddess charcteristics are always tender, selfless and giving with the Mother phase.

They aren't. The Mother is also a fierce protector, a warrior who keeps her family safe. She is the mother bear. She is power of mother earth during earthquakes and when volcanoes erupt. She is the queen bee, the matriarch. A great part of what I value in life is protecting my loved ones.


Why is that? Why should she focus outward or on everyone else?

Don't make the mistake of thinking the Mother does not within her contain what the Maiden has learned - one must first build the inward and continue to do so before they can focus outward. The two are not mutually exclusive, they are built upon one another. Once she has the strength and wisdom to build herself, she can turn out to help others. In doing so she builds strong communities, she raises her children to become independent adults, she guides the coven or group.


And importantly, what specific deities is that supposed to represent?

There are many deities associated with one element of MMC as you mention above, but I wonder too, why is it important to map this against specific deities? I tend to see MMC as an archetypal idea that is larger than specific deities though it can be mapped to them. Mother is also my mother, mother earth, myself, nurturing energy, the moon, and so much more.


It's implied that maiden's are selfish because they do not employ these characteristics and yet are given an excuse for youths sake. Isn't this rather judgemental and regimented?

Well, where you see that implication, I do not. I believe some inward focus is absolutely necessarily. I believe in creating a strong self first and foremost, and continuing to keep it strong. I have recently found myself re-exploring the senses, appreciating the freedom and sensitivity of the maiden as she experiences the universe without inhibition.

And I believe it's impossible to look outward before you are strong on the inside. I tend to work with Jungian ideas on the subject and see this to be an ongoing process.

To say "this is selfish" is, of course, judgmental. But I don't see it as selfish. How could the child so entranced by the clouds, the one who could spend hours watching ants go by, be seen as selfish?


It seems an attempt at saying what's right and proper for a woman to behave at any given age within a rather narrow guideline of gender specific roles during specfic outlined phases.

It is simply a model, a paradigm, a collection of ideas. I think that's what I hope to get across most when I speak of my panentheistic beliefs and archetypalism, etc. If the model doesn't work for you, don't use it. This is similar to the thread that started about "the Goddess" - if it does not suit you to consider what represents this archetype or that, no problem.

It's not meant to be restricting. It isn't meant to tell you "what's right and proper" at all, it's meant to reflect ideas that people notice. It's meant to convey a truth, a quality of being - in this case going from focusing inward to focusing outward, from being a carefree maiden to a protective mother and on to the crone. And it really isn't specific either - there is no age at which one goes from maiden to mother. There is no divide where one stops being maiden and automatically turns to mother.

[Morgandria]

It seems an attempt at saying what's right and proper for a woman to behave at any given age within a rather narrow guideline of gender specific roles during specfic outlined phases. That it is embraced by many who profess to be in a spirituality or religion that is claimed to more inclusive and open is a bit confusing to me. Can anyone explain?

I wish I could. I've been thinking about it for more than I care to admit (:p), and I still don't have an answer. I think of goddesses only as individuals, really - I can't really shoehorn them into the MMC framework and feel good about it.

So far, what I've come to understand is that you can't so much define things by traits or characteristics, if people are trying to discern what "phase" they may be in. It's really pretty basic.

A Maiden is simply a woman who isn't married. She could have had sex.

A Mother, has had a child. Being married doesn't make you a mother. There are lots of women who are mothering-age, who are married, and yet have not had children - I'm one of them.

A Crone is a woman who has passed menopause. Pretty basic. It's not predicated on age, or experience - merely that you no longer bleed, and you can no longer bear children.


As you can tell, there's lots of room for variance there. I am married, I still bleed, but I'm infertile. So I'm not a maiden, I'm not a mother, and I'm not a crone. Heh. I choose in my own case to identify with the hidden face of the Goddess, if I'm pressed to think in soft polytheistic terms, and leave it at that.

[_Banbha_]

I don't find it limiting and confining, simply one paradigm that is inspiring to many and can be adopted or ignored at one's desire. If one does not find it useful, they are welcome to not use it. If one does not agree with my opinion on how it works, they can and will modify it to fit their spirituality. There isn't "one true Maiden Mother Crone concept" that all must follow, just a general idea that clearly many enjoy and use.

Again, just my humble opinion, but I'm in the "if it works, use it" kind of camp. It's useful to me to consider Isis an expression of Mother, so I do.


Okay, is a a tool for self-realization (self-actualization).

I understand it's flexible and people apply there own meanings but what was the orginal intent of the concept? It is still either limiting or inaccurate because many women choose to or cannot have children. And there are many, many women who are mothers and are more complex than this archetype suggests, even with the add-ons. It all seems ego driven in this way: It's like a combo of paragon and martyr to motherhood. It seems unrealistic to me and not condusive to healthy, full life.

I understand the use of archetypes and respect that others do veiw deity in those terms, I still wonder at the titles MMC and the stereotypical roles. I find the actual goddesses themselves more interesting and varied than the modern titles. I could go into myriad examples here but I think it's been done before.

I know you don't do this but I still wonder at those who apply it to the always popular Celtic triads when MMC concept does not and has never applied to them.


They aren't. The Mother is also a fierce protector, a warrior who keeps her family safe. She is the mother bear. She is power of mother earth during earthquakes and when volcanoes erupt. She is the queen bee, the matriarch. A great part of what I value in life is protecting my loved ones.

I value protecting loved ones as well and always have even, as a child. I recognize and 'feel' the power and energy in the earth, sea and sky and beyond.

Does the Mother ever attack beyond defense? Say offense or for her own reasons? How about dog eat dog striving for success that has nothing to do with anything but competitiveness? Is fierceness only in defense of her children? It's always is in context of children. Again, to go outside the proscribed roles is what? Inward, selfish, young? This is just what I'm seeing. These can easliy be rhetorical questions, food for thought.


Don't make the mistake of thinking the Mother does not within her contain what the Maiden has learned - one must first build the inward and continue to do so before they can focus outward. The two are not mutually exclusive, they are built upon one another. Once she has the strength and wisdom to build herself, she can turn out to help others. In doing so she builds strong communities, she raises her children to become independent adults, she guides the coven or group.

Much of what you are saying is about growing and maturing in general. I do understand one is built upon the other. Still, it seems scripted.



There are many deities associated with one element of MMC as you mention above, but I wonder too, why is it important to map this against specific deities? I tend to see MMC as an archetypal idea that is larger than specific deities though it can be mapped to them. Mother is also my mother, mother earth, myself, nurturing energy, the moon, and so much more.

Good question.



Well, where you see that implication, I do not. I believe some inward focus is absolutely necessarily. I believe in creating a strong self first and foremost, and continuing to keep it strong. I have recently found myself re-exploring the senses, appreciating the freedom and sensitivity of the maiden as she experiences the universe without inhibition.

So the Mother is inhibited then? If so by what? Her selflessness and outward focus?

Here's what others have said about maidens that prompted the implication:


hmm to me the mother part would be when you realize others matter too and you employ empathy. you care for those around you and nurture relationships.
It's the stage in your life where you are no longer a child but a woman grown. no longer as selfish as the maiden was.
make sense

Note the past tense in both too.


<snip>
I agree that a maiden is inward, focusing on herself as she develops, but a mother is developed and now she can focus on everyone else.

So inward focusing is only for the undevelped woman is a clear implication. When you grow up, you move beyond this and serve others. That is Mother, that is adult female focus. And be a paragon to others while your at it, because you are already "developed." Yikes.

People never finish developing. Motherhood is not and should not be stagnation.



And I believe it's impossible to look outward before you are strong on the inside. I tend to work with Jungian ideas on the subject and see this to be an ongoing process.

I think it's healthier to do both in tandem as you are growing. You make mistakes and learn from them.


To say "this is selfish" is, of course, judgmental. But I don't see it as selfish. How could the child so entranced by the clouds, the one who could spend hours watching ants go by, be seen as selfish?

How about a 'Mother' (archeypically speaking) doing the same?


It is simply a model, a paradigm, a collection of ideas. I think that's what I hope to get across most when I speak of my panentheistic beliefs and archetypalism, etc. If the model doesn't work for you, don't use it. This is similar to the thread that started about "the Goddess" - if it does not suit you to consider what represents this archetype or that, no problem.


I understand and it's important for me to stress I'm not trying to stir controversy. Many of my queries and this (and my first post) are to everyone as much as replying to you now. :)

It just seems there are aspects that no one really questions. This archetype of MMC is considered woman centered, and as such feminist. I just disagree with that estimation and implication.

I think while MMC can be part of someones Pantheistic beliefs, it's more about archetypical beliefs.



It isn't meant to tell you "what's right and proper" at all, it's meant to reflect ideas that people notice. It's meant to convey a truth, a quality of being - in this case going from focusing inward to focusing outward, from being a carefree maiden to a protective mother and on to the crone. And it really isn't specific either - there is no age at which one goes from maiden to mother. There is no divide where one stops being maiden and automatically turns to mother.

Are all maidens carefree? Is it because they don't have children? I do not believe this to be the case.

As you said, it's not for everyone. It does seem imply what is right or proper for women at certain stages of life in such a way that lacks a realistic complexity for me, so I have to agree to respectfully disagree with you on MMC veiws.

[RainInanna]

I understand it's flexible and people apply there own meanings but what was the orginal intent of the concept?

Can't say I know I'm afraid, not sure where it originated or how. Similarly I can't speak of the history behind yin and yang in Taoism, or other dualities and trinities that exist in various cultures, though I find them fascinating.


It is still either limiting or inaccurate because many women choose to or cannot have children.

I've had four miscarriages and took over five years to be able to maintain pregnancy only through medical intervention - I would strongly insist motherhood is not only meaningful according to choosing or being able to bear children. There's also community, family, coven, group, friends, social group, what have you. Simply "others". My "mother" energy is just as manifested when I'm protecting my parents or standing to strengthen my friends.


I find the actual goddesses themselves more interesting and varied than the modern titles. I could go into myriad examples here but I think it's been done before.

Absolutely. I'm wondering if it's a matter of focus. I imagine you are polytheistic (correct me if I'm wrong) so the deities are individuals first and foremost. Trying to stereotype your Celtic deities by some pattern, could be like someone stereotyping my mom based on their own idea of "motherhood". It could easily be done disrespectfully. If nothing else it could be really irritating if someone disregards important facets of who my mom is as a person just to fit her in their mold of "motherhood", or if they decide arbitrarily that she doesn't measure up and therefore isn't worth their time.

But the mistake there is not in seeing "motherhood", it's in using it as a value judgment and letting it restrict thinking. It's by refusing to see any other view.

When I mention panentheism it's because my view goes the opposite way - instead of thinking of deities as individuals first, I think of energy and spirit first. I see it manifest in infinite ways, both in archetypes and as individuals. So I think focusing in that way makes me see "Mother" as a large archetypal idea that manifests in many individuals, rather than many individuals forced into and stereotyped by a label. Kind of the opposite way 'round, if that makes sense?


Here's what others have said about maidens that prompted the implication:

Ah, I'll leave it to them for the most part. The only thing I notice when someone mentioned the Mother is developed is that logically if you take an adult they are going to be more developed then a child. But it doesn't mean development stops there at all. Of course an adult continues to develop, but it would still be correct to say an adult is developed compared to a child.

Similarly, when I say "a maiden does this" or "a child does this", I am not saying "a mother cannot". As mentioned, Mother builds upon Maiden and there are no absolutes. An adult can do most anything a child can; saying "a child sucks his thumb" doesn't imply an adult can't. It's just noting a common characteristic of children.


I understand and it's important for me to stress I'm not trying to stir controversy. Many of my queries and this (and my first post) are to everyone as much as replying to you now.

Yep, no worries. I really enjoy the discussion and appreciate the opportunity to share ideas and learn from you. I believe I see where you're coming from now (if you are indeed a polytheist), or at least I hope I haven't mucked it all up :)

[_Banbha_]

Can't say I know I'm afraid, not sure where it originated or how. Similarly I can't speak of the history behind yin and yang in Taoism, or other dualities and trinities that exist in various cultures, though I find them fascinating.

I find cross-cultural similarites interesting as well and there are discernable connections to be found. I am uncomfortable with and I do not think it is correct to stripe the culturual aspect of a deity to the bare bones and ascribe your own meaning to it. Way not just make up your own? I appreciate the cultural connection and I think it should be respected. I think there is also greater wisdom there to be found. (agian I'm speaking of the practice in general, I know you don't do that)


I've had four miscarriages and took over five years to be able to maintain pregnancy only through medical intervention - I would strongly insist motherhood is not only meaningful according to choosing or being able to bear children. There's also community, family, coven, group, friends, social group, what have you. Simply "others". My "mother" energy is just as manifested when I'm protecting my parents or standing to strengthen my friends.

I have never been pregnant and have no desire to bear or raise children. I have no 'Mother' energy. I have loving and nurturing energy like any other person. My creative energy and protective insticts are tuned or defined that way. It has little or nothing to do with my ability or not to bear children.

All this energy is still being defined in this meme as 'Mother.' I just see it as my energy as a member and a part of the human tribe. Men feel nurturing and protective energy as well, as children and crones do.




Absolutely. I'm wondering if it's a matter of focus. I imagine you are polytheistic (correct me if I'm wrong) so the deities are individuals first and foremost. Trying to stereotype your Celtic deities by some pattern, could be like someone stereotyping my mom based on their own idea of "motherhood". It could easily be done disrespectfully. If nothing else it could be really irritating if someone disregards important facets of who my mom is as a person just to fit her in their mold of "motherhood", or if they decide arbitrarily that she doesn't measure up and therefore isn't worth their time.

I don't care if She (insert Celtic Goddess) doesn't measure up or isn't worth someone's time. All the better to leave Her alone. But it is frustrating to see so much out there based on nothing but some contemporary authors fantasy *being passed off as ancient and historical* being the key point here.

I'm polytheistic but not what some people call "hard polytheist." That is a concept that is a reaction to monotheism. I also have something of a pantheistic streak but it has nothing to do with archetypes and more to do with ancient Irish practices of every place and object being part of the sacred and thus connected. Something I have not found in "hard polytheism."


But the mistake there is not in seeing "motherhood", it's in using it as a value judgment and letting it restrict thinking. It's by refusing to see any other view.

I understand what you are saying but then I listen to people discribing it who practice it; and I'm back to my original opinion.


When I mention panentheism it's because my view goes the opposite way - instead of thinking of deities as individuals first, I think of energy and spirit first.

I see them as all at the same time: Individual, energy, spirit... (not including archetypes as I think that is something else).


I see it manifest in infinite ways, both in archetypes and as individuals. So I think focusing in that way makes me see "Mother" as a large archetypal idea that manifests in many individuals, rather than many individuals forced into and stereotyped by a label. Kind of the opposite way 'round, if that makes sense?

It has the same result for me either way; but I am trying to understand.



Ah, I'll leave it to them for the most part. The only thing I notice when someone mentioned the Mother is developed is that logically if you take an adult they are going to be more developed then a child. But it doesn't mean development stops there at all. Of course an adult continues to develop, but it would still be correct to say an adult is developed compared to a child.

There is a logical connection there. But that is not what was said or implied, and not just here, by those who incorporate MMC in thier practice.

As far as development, it also really depends on the person. Being 'Mother' is not automatic wisdom and some people seem born wise. And I'm half joking/half serious here. :hahugh: Some people regress in some ways as they get older as well. Sure they have more experience than a child but that is not necessarily a virtue.

<snip>


Yep, no worries. I really enjoy the discussion and appreciate the opportunity to share ideas and learn from you. I believe I see where you're coming from now (if you are indeed a polytheist), or at least I hope I haven't mucked it all up :)

No, you haven't at all! :D It has been interesting and I enjoyed the discussion as well. Clearly it's not for me but I am trying to understand properly. It something I'm not getting and yet I know it's something many women hold dear. That is a bit confusing for me because I feel like a voice in the wilderness. 8O

[RainInanna]

But it is frustrating to see so much out there based on nothing but some contemporary authors fantasy *being passed off as ancient and historical* being the key point here.

This makes me wonder what you are referring to specifically - what contemporary author, what fantasy? Who is passing something off as ancient and historical? I'm confused, maybe we are looking at this in totally different contexts? I'm beginning to think I misunderstand what we disagree on, because I certainly agree passing off fantasy as historical fact is annoying no matter how you do it :D

[Philosophia]

IMO, I think maiden-mother-crone isn't really age apparent and can be combined to ease the transition. For example, I liken the maiden phase as being a new beginning, birth (not just physical), and youth (not age wise). The "Mother" phase tends to become more stable, fulfilling, nurturing (not just having babies but also nurturing your creativity, animals, ideas, etc.), and the Crone phase is more the end, death (not physically), and the accumulation of knowledge and wisdom. Neither stage is fixed or, for me, related to physical age. Its a fluid concept that relates more to our stage of mental and spiritual growth.

Of course, this is just my opinion but thats how I see the concept.

[_Banbha_]

This makes me wonder what you are referring to specifically - what contemporary author, what fantasy? Who is passing something off as ancient and historical? I'm confused, maybe we are looking at this in totally different contexts? I'm beginning to think I misunderstand what we disagree on, because I certainly agree passing off fantasy as historical fact is annoying no matter how you do it :D

MMC is not an ancient goddess concept especially how it's practiced in the contemporary context, many seem to believe it is though. There is plenty of Goddess thealogy out there that does claim that. You have not ascribed archtypical qualities of deity as an ancient practice but most *in my experience* who follow the MMC do. So in a sense, I'll say again, I'm not really speaking to the right person about this qualm. 8O

some contemproary authors: Edain McCoy, Kisma Stephanich, Conway, ZBudhapest, and more if I take the time to think about and research a bit. I've seen 'Celtic' Goddess Triads' cramed into this MMC meme more than I can count, though i haven't saved or collected the references more than I've hurled them across the room. (Not my laptop, just the books. :D)

If you want to discuss it, name some of the books or sites you've read on the subject. But, I do think we are in agreement on the history part. :smile:

[moonmorgan]

Wow so much to comment on now! This will take a while...


...what was the orginal intent of the concept? It is still either limiting or inaccurate because many women choose to or cannot have children.

I wish I knew the original concept. We need a historian. Saying that you must have children to go through the Mother stage is limiting but I honestly don't think that's what was originally meant. Or perhaps it was since it used to be the thing for women to do. That was considered women's duties. So if that was the original concept, than we are modernizing it.


Does the Mother ever attack beyond defense? Say offense or for her own reasons?

Sure, to demonstrate what is important to her. However I don't believe she would attack for fun, then she would still be Maiden and naive. (note: I don't mean to make it sound like the maiden is a bad person, there are positive traits of the maiden too.)


So inward focusing is only for the undevelped woman is a clear implication. When you grow up, you move beyond this and serve others. ...
People never finish developing. Motherhood is not and should not be stagnation.

You're right, we never finish developing. However I don't think that saying the mother is outward focusing is saying we are done developing.


As you said, it's not for everyone. It does seem imply what is right or proper for women at certain stages of life in such a way that lacks a realistic complexity for me, so I have to agree to respectfully disagree with you on MMC veiws.

What part of it seems unrealistic? What qualities do you strive for? What part of what we have said the Mother represents is not a real quality one can posess? Am I misunderstanding you?


I think of goddesses only as individuals, really - I can't really shoehorn them into the MMC framework and feel good about it.

I thought the MMC concept was Wiccan. As far as I understood, Wiccans believe in a God and Goddess that are all encompassing and that the named deities are just aspects of that God and Goddess. If that is not the Wiccan concept, it's at least what I believe. If I'm right, then you wouldn't shoehorn specific deities into the MMC framework because it wasn't meant that way.


So far, what I've come to understand is that you can't so much define things by traits or characteristics, if people are trying to discern what "phase" they may be in. It's really pretty basic.

Why can't we use traits or characteristics to define ourselves and what phase we may be in. Who says that the MMC idea is supposed to be basic?

I agree that a Maiden isn't married. Just as the term virgin originally meant that. As for your description of the Mother, as I said before, even if it originally meant bearing children, that doesn't always apply now. There has to be other things that put you into that phase.

I think that the Maiden Mother Crone is more like the Child, Adult, Elder that we attribute to the seasons. Mother was used because a female adult tended to be a mother than but another term could be used.


I am married, I still bleed, but I'm infertile. So I'm not a maiden, I'm not a mother, and I'm not a crone.

See I don't agree with that. Although if you have interest to identify yourself in the MMC idea that's fine. To each his or her own. However if you are an adult, you are still going through the mother stage as I see it.


I don't understand why all the Mother Goddess charcteristics are always tender, selfless and giving with the Mother phase. Why is that? Why should she focus outward or on everyone else? Is this a healthy example to aspire to? And importantly, what specific deities is that supposed to represent?

I do not think that thinking of other people and putting others first means that you are completely selfless. You do not think that putting others first is something we should aspire to? I do.


It seems an attempt at saying what's right and proper for a woman to behave at any given age within a rather narrow guideline of gender specific roles during specfic outlined phases. That it is embraced by many who profess to be in a spirituality or religion that is claimed to more inclusive and open is a bit confusing to me. Can anyone explain?

Again if the concept was created many years ago, women did have narrow, specific roles they were expected to fulfill. However I don't think that the more modern understanding of the Triple Goddess is all that narrow. Also I think it's more about who we are as a person, not our behaviour. We may consider the needs of others but then decide not to care and do what we want. We have still reached the Mother phase but are not behaving that way.


I am uncomfortable with and I do not think it is correct to stripe the culturual aspect of a deity to the bare bones and ascribe your own meaning to it. Way not just make up your own?

Again I think the problem here is the difference between those of use who believe each God and Goddess is a separate individual and those that believe they are all a part of The God and The Goddess or even The All. To me the Maiden, Mother and Crone has nothing whatsoever to do with a specific deity.


I have never been pregnant and have no desire to bear or raise children. I have no 'Mother' energy. I have loving and nurturing energy like any other person. My creative energy and protective insticts are tuned or defined that way. It has little or nothing to do with my ability or not to bear children.

You've contradicted yourself, at least in my view. You say you have no mother energy but then say you are loving and nurturing, creative and protective. These are all mother qualities.

[Morgandria]

I'm sorry - I have to agree to disagree, simply because "adult female" does not equal "mother", and never will in my world. I have many creative gifts. Being an artisan? Still doesn't make me a mother. It may be creative - but it is not bringing forth life. Art is not alive. Nurturing? Sure, I garden. But I only tend, offer support - I didn't give the seed the energy to become a sprout. Being a gardener does not make me a mother.

Those qualities you ascribe to motherhood are the traits that most humans can or do possess, through various stages of life. What makes a mother a mother is giving birth, and only through giving birth.

And you're right. The maiden-mother-crone Triple Goddess, associated with the moon, is a Wiccan perspective of the female half of the divine. Some people try to cram the various goddesses into this framework, though; I think because they work with a specific Lady and still believe that all Goddesses are one, they also feel they have to make that goddess work in the M-M-C framework. And often they just don't fit.

I just happen to be a Wiccan is not duothestic, so I don't think that way.

[_Banbha_]

I wish I knew the original concept. We need a historian. Saying that you must have children to go through the Mother stage is limiting but I honestly don't think that's what was originally meant. Or perhaps it was since it used to be the thing for women to do. That was considered women's duties. So if that was the original concept, than we are modernizing it.

MMC is deity though. It's difficult to discuss the original intent when you don't know what it is.


Sure, to demonstrate what is important to her. However I don't believe she would attack for fun, then she would still be Maiden and naive. (note: I don't mean to make it sound like the maiden is a bad person, there are positive traits of the maiden too.)

You are assuming that an attack not in defense of children would be just for fun and not have another offensive purpose. I also mentioned competitiveness just for it's own sake or for getting ahead. Or having a passion that is all your own. An attack doesn't have to mean a fist fight or some kind of beating. Again, it's a tight, judgemental script to follow imo. Maidens do sound like they get the short end of the stick. They get a lot of crap thrown on them for any misbehavior that goes off the scale from being the paragon of 'Mother' who seems beyond reproach. Crone is sitting in the corner laughing. :hehehehe:


You're right, we never finish developing. However I don't think that saying the mother is outward focusing is saying we are done developing.

It was said and I commented on it. And it sounds like MMC are perscribed roles people seem to be taking seriously.


What part of it seems unrealistic? What qualities do you strive for? What part of what we have said the Mother represents is not a real quality one can posess? Am I misunderstanding you?

I can possess many fine qualities without identifying with MMC. The 'Mother' as selfless and outward thinking lacks complexity and depth. My veiw does not preclude valuing those precepts.

This is part of your OP:


For example the Maiden is usually before "doing it" and before your body is fully developed and the crone is Menopause. So what signifies you've hit the Mother stage? Getting married? What if you don't get married?

Help!

You seem concerned you are not fitting/conforming to the meme. This does not sound confining to you, but it does to me. And there is the maiden before 'doing it.'


I thought the MMC concept was Wiccan. As far as I understood, Wiccans believe in a God and Goddess that are all encompassing and that the named deities are just aspects of that God and Goddess. If that is not the Wiccan concept, it's at least what I believe. If I'm right, then you wouldn't shoehorn specific deities into the MMC framework because it wasn't meant that way.

They are nameless beyond their titles?



Why can't we use traits or characteristics to define ourselves and what phase we may be in. Who says that the MMC idea is supposed to be basic?

Imo, that's all I've really heard here. It seems to be designed for 2 demensional simplicity and to be as non-threatening as possible. Like the Blessed Mother, who I grew up adoring, but still.


I agree that a Maiden isn't married. Just as the term virgin originally meant that. As for your description of the Mother, as I said before, even if it originally meant bearing children, that doesn't always apply now. There has to be other things that put you into that phase.

And I'm just wondering why stereotypical phases and the need to conform to this construct. As I've said, it's not for me.


I do not think that thinking of other people and putting others first means that you are completely selfless. You do not think that putting others first is something we should aspire to? I do.

Good for you! Have a cookie. You are doing exactly what I think the meme dictates.


Again if the concept was created many years ago, women did have narrow, specific roles they were expected to fulfill. However I don't think that the more modern understanding of the Triple Goddess is all that narrow.

Frist, you don't seem to know exactly when the concept was created. I see the modern understanding of the triple goddess is just that-- a modern creation.



Also I think it's more about who we are as a person, not our behaviour. We may consider the needs of others but then decide not to care and do what we want. We have still reached the Mother phase but are not behaving that way.

I think women are born humans, as men are, and have potential to be full human beings if we want to live an examined life. Phases would be far to confining for me. There are far too many possibilities.


Again I think the problem here is the difference between those of use who believe each God and Goddess is a separate individual and those that believe they are all a part of The God and The Goddess or even The All. To me the Maiden, Mother and Crone has nothing whatsoever to do with a specific deity.

Okay.


You've contradicted yourself, at least in my view. You say you have no mother energy but then say you are loving and nurturing, creative and protective. These are all mother qualities.

No, I haven't. These are human qualities found in most every woman, man, transexual or inbetween, young or old. I am a woman, not a mother.

[moonmorgan]

They are nameless beyond their titles?

I'm not quite sure what you mean exactly but I believe that there is an all and that we think of the all as a God and Goddess because it's easier for us to think in gender terms. For many, including myself, it's hard to think of a genderless being. As for specific Gods or Goddesses, they are just further aspects of the all. I don't expect or ask others to believe as I do, but that's what makes sense to me.


You seem concerned you are not fitting/conforming to the meme. This does not sound confining to you, but it does to me. And there is the maiden before 'doing it.'

You misunderstand me. I do have children, I'm just trying to better understand the concept as I know that not all women have children. Perhaps the concept isn't relevant any more, but that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Anyways we have very different beliefs so I know we won't come to consensus which is fine, like I said I wanted to know other's views. Thanks for the chat.