2nd and 3rd degrees

[RainInanna]

Hi all,

I am interested to know what concepts and challenges you feel characterize the second and third degrees in a three degree system. I have recently felt a call to dedicating myself to a higher level, however as I am not part of a coven I don't have specific knowledge of what second and third degree might entail. I'm thinking more of the concepts and ideas as a guideline than worrying about titles that may only apply within a group.

I get the impression that the second degree relates to shadow work and self examination whereas the third degree suggests taking the work of the first two degrees together to create a foundation for serving the sacred and the community. Perhaps the training in the third degree includes counselling, healing, ritual organization, leadership skills, etc.?

Sorry if I'm not being clear, I can try to clarify later if necessary. I was just laying down for a nap and wanted to post this before I lost the train of thought :D

[Morgandria]

I'm neither a 2nd or 3rd of my tradition, so I honestly don't know. And I'm fairly certain until you swear oaths to a tradition, and begin to recieve degrees, they're not going to tell you their workings or course of study.

[Fiamma]

I'm neither a 2nd or 3rd of my tradition, so I honestly don't know. And I'm fairly certain until you swear oaths to a tradition, and begin to recieve degrees, they're not going to tell you their workings or course of study.


no doubt, but one would think that in order to be properly informed before making some huge commitment, there would be a certain amount of general information given by a particular tradition to those who may be seeking study. I don't know of too many people that would agree to go into a course of study without even a general idea of what to expect, and I don't think anyone should be willing to.

[Morgandria]

That may well be with some traditions. It isn't so with mine. There is some very general Wicca 101-ish stuff taught about the sabbats, and very basic theology, but you don't start learning anything about the tradition and its' methods until you take the student oath.

[RainInanna]

That's what I'm hoping for, Fiamma. Hopefully it goes without saying that I'm not looking for anyone to break their oaths or provide specifics they don't feel comfortable with or can't provide at all. Just hoping there are some out there with general ideas or information they would be willing to share.

[Lunacie]

In my experience first in a coven and then as a solitary and now in a less-formal circle, the titles of First, Second and Third Degree are meaningless outside of a coven setting. At First Degree one pledges oneself to learn and grow and honor the old gods and all of nature, and that pledge continues as long as one is a Wiccan in belief and practice. This link may be helpful in understanding: http://www.starkindler.org/degrees.html

[Eran]

Any Tradition that has levels of "degrees" will mean something different by those levels. Outside of each particular Tradition, those meanings would be little more than confusing. Within experiential traditions (such as the one I belog to) it is next to impossible to discuss what the Degrees "mean" with someone who has not experienced them - and it is even more difficult for someone who has merely read about them to really have a clue as to what they're "about".

For someone working alone or creating something new, this poses a bit of a challenge. I suspect the best way to approach this question is to see where you, personally, feel most in need of deeper or broader experience, knowledge, or realizations.

You may have previously dedicated yourself to the path you're on now. You may feel drawn to particular deities or symbols. Meditate on those, design for yourself some kind of divinatory ritual, perhaps one that may include a session of trance journeying. See what messages and insights you gain from that. Perhaps some realization will come to you, either a discovery of what areas you should seek next, or perhaps even a transformation experience itself that might provide the deeper levels you desire.

[RainInanna]

http://www.starkindler.org/degrees.html

Thank you, this is the kind of thing I'm looking for. As opposed to the structure I mentioned earlier, this one suggests that a 2nd degree is declared in their own right to be a HP or HPS, is to assist the coven's HP and HPS, can elevate others to 1st or 2nd, and yet is still often called to do shadow-work as I mentioned.

The 3rd is said to relate to mastery, has the responsibility to guide others, and can independently start a new coven.

In either case the degree seems to relate to service within the group and in starting new groups. Therefore while I agree it seems both are important as they relate to others within a group, rather than as a solitary, I'm not sure they must be tied to a coven. Certainly a coven would include their own specific structures and practices, however, I think there's room for a more general layout.

[RainInanna]

Hm I'm surprised no one has research regarding degree systems within other religions, though come to think of it I think there may be info on the subject somewhere in the two books I have by Manly P Hall. Will let you know if I find anything.

[RainInanna]

MW threads and posts of interest
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1889349&postcount=9
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=112136
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=37582
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=20534

Edited to add http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=116093

According to
http://www.paganwiki.org/index.php?title=The_Sibylline_Order#Degrees_Overview in the Sibylline order the 2nd degree suggests one specialization and community service, whereas the 3rd suggests two or more specializations along with community service.

Looks like the degree system within Wicca was influenced by the system in Masonry. I am sure it existed within other mystery religions as well.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, obviously I don't know the exact specs on it, since I'm still a 1*, but in my coven, well, in my tradition, really, a second degree must be able to successfully run a circle, acting as HP/S, and being well-versed in all aspects of the circle. A first mostly indicates general knowledge, a strong commitment and recognition as family. A second, OTOH, may hive off and form a new, daughter coven. I'm unclear as to whether they are able to initiate and elevate to 2*, but I imagine they must, at least, be able to initiate to 1*. My parents were both 2* when they founded my coven, and they were elevated a bit later. (We've always had 3*s around, in my memory, so I can't think of an initiation that was done by a 2*, but I would imagine it could happen.) Third requires more maturity, more experience, more responsibility, and more depth. Obviously, they can initiate and elevate any degree. For us, it's more, if you're there, then you're there. There isn't any fudging of the lines. We have very little in the way of a checklist, and most of it's experience and depth and ability. But that's just us.

Lunacie's right. The degrees are meaningless outside of a tradition, outside of a coven, even. It is a personal marker, and it means something to the Gods and to the people in the coven, but usage varies from coven to coven. Each has different ways of determining "readiness", each has different markers that they use... basically, each coven is autonomous.

[Lunacie]

Hm I'm surprised no one has research regarding degree systems within other religions, though come to think of it I think there may be info on the subject somewhere in the two books I have by Manly P Hall. Will let you know if I find anything.

Well I did wonder, but since it was posted in the Wicca section I thought that must be what you were asking about. Wicca is the only degree system I know anything about anyway.

[~Owl~]

Well I did wonder, but since it was posted in the Wicca section I thought that must be what you were asking about. Wicca is the only degree system I know anything about anyway.


Actually, there are many non-wiccan traditions that have inititory degree systems. Just not like your mainstream Wiccan Degrees. They may have similar titles, but not similar roles. And vice versa. There are also inititory paths that are pagan oriented, but have nothing to do with the Craft even.

Here is a link you might find interesting on some of the major tradions of Wicca and non Wiccan witchcraft tradions:

http://www.homecircle.info/Atraditions.html

[Lunacie]

I wasn't saying that there aren't other religions with degree systems, I was saying that Wicca is the only one I'm personally familiar with enough to comment on, especially since I thought I the question only had to do with Wicca.

[~Owl~]

I'm fairly certain until you swear oaths to a tradition, and begin to recieve degrees, they're not going to tell you their workings or course of study.

You are correct in this statement.

[Jenett]

As said, there's a tremendous amount of variation. Which you knew. The trick is, that part of that tremendous amount of variation is because the way different groups actually work varies, too.

For us, 1st is basically "Responsible for yourself", 2nd is a broader responsibility to the well-being of the group (and the power to do some things, like hive or do initiations to your own degree, but not the authority to do so), and 3rd gives you the authority and also broader responsibilities not just within the group, but within a broader community setting. (We don't use this as 'make the Pagan community a better place' necessarily but in some sense of integrating your life so that you're making the world a better place in some deliberate ways that interlock with your spiritual work.)

You may see this overlapping in terms used in circle - we use "initiate and witch", "priest/ess and witch" and "high priest/ess and witch" for some of our wording, which gives an idea of some of the differentials.

Overlapping that, there's a series of group-internal requirements and responsibilities. (1st degrees enter rotation for writing and planning rituals. 2nd degrees participate in one specific trad ritual, and have some broader responsibilities within the group and 3rd degrees get to do all that and more.) There's also some stuff (like some ritual roles) that people take on when they ask for them, mostly, and that can be 1st degree, or later, depending.

And over *that*, there's a layer of personal change and growth and shadow work and dealing with our baggage, and so forth. It's not that this process ends at 3rd degree - because it absolutely doesn't - but there are some distinctive landmarks for a number of people at the three degrees.

I got my 2nd about 18 months ago, and I'm *finally* feeling like I'm really integrating some of the stuff that got shaken up. It's still in process, and will be for quite a while to come.

What happened with me is that my life was pretty well sorted out for being a happily functional initiate, doing my thing, but not taking on other larger responsibilities. However, when I took that step forward to actively seeking to priestess, to take on larger group responsibilities, which coincided with my HPS and HP scheduling my 2nd degree, the bits of my life that couldn't support that blew up.

I'm really happy with where I am now (and where I'm going) and it was *totally* necessary if I was looking at group leadership - but it's involved a divorce, two moves, a lot of financial stress, going back to finish grad school, and a major job change and another move in the next few months assuming all goes the way I think it will.

And it's that stuff, in particular, that's hard to put into any kinds of words. It's the reason that most degree systems that have any kind of long-term coherency have a "Must be deemed ready" clause. (In my case, it was really sort of funny: they scheduled my 2nd 4 months in advance, and had no idea why it needed to be in November, just that that was when I'd be ready. Turns out it was amazing timing on all sorts of levels.)

I really don't think there's an easy way to line up solitary practice with at least half of what's involved - just because the demands and the skills and the expectations needed for dealing with group work aren't in the picture. So much of what I've learned at 2nd isn't directly about group work - but it took group work or regular interaction to trigger it, or to help me work through it in multiple ways.

In other cases, the sheer "Ok, I need to make this ritual work for other people, even though I'm in a lousy mood and I'm getting over sick" teaches a whole bunch of lessons on its own.

Either way, it hasn't so much been about skills (except the refinement of the ones I had) as 1) very specific applications of same (the ritual I mentioned), 2) learning to teach/show/lead others towards that goal in some way and 3) learning how to keep myself centered and focused and doing the stuff I need despite and because of the other commitments I've taken on.

[Ben Gruagach]

Keeping in mind what everyone has said about degrees being mostly only relevant within the specific group or denomination that is granting them, those who are working as solitaries might find some helpful material in "Self-Initiation for the Solitary Witch: Attaining Higher Spirituality Through a Five-Degree System" by Shanddaramon.

The book provides a structured study program that can lead a solitary to a level of understanding that tends to surpass the usual first-degree sort of stuff. Of course the whole degree thing doesn't mean anything to anyone else so calling the stuff you learn in this book degrees is just an arbitrary label.

[Lunacie]

Actually in my first coven by the time I made it to second degree I had a shorthand version of what the three degrees meant...

1st: know yourself
2nd: know your coven
3rd: know your community

But before any of that came...

Dedication: know the divine

Not that you had to have a personal connection with any specific god in order to dedicate yourself, but a personal acknowledgement that there is a divine presence in our universe.

Yes, I'm a product of a generation that uses too many catch words and reads too much Reader's Digest and hears too many sound bites and tries to condense everything into a nutshell. ;)

[SoulFire]

Lunacie's right. The degrees are meaningless outside of a tradition, outside of a coven, even. It is a personal marker, and it means something to the Gods and to the people in the coven, but usage varies from coven to coven. Each has different ways of determining "readiness", each has different markers that they use... basically, each coven is autonomous.

Well spoken. In the Anderson Feri Tradition, which I was initiated into in '96, we do not have a hierarchical 'degree' system. In fact, we have only one Initiation (training is more rigorous however). Likewise, in the Pictish-Faery Tradition I was originally initiated into in '84, we do not have a degree system either. Instead, we also have only one Initiation. In addition, we have a pre-initiatory Dedication for newbies. I have initiated one student into Feri/Vicia, and dedicated and initiated another student into Pictish-Faery.

My former teacher, Lilly, taught that during the first "year-and-a-day", the Dedicant sets about purifying himself/herself, increasing self-knowledge, and correcting any negative habits and faults in the personality. Meditation and journal keeping is a daily practice (I was required to give weekly reports on my progress). Harmony is sought within the self and the external world, including Nature and the Gods. The Dedicant is also expected to understand mythology, symbols, and how to construct and use the ritual tools (paraphrased from A Book of Pagan Rituals).

In the second year, following Initiation, the Witch develops his/her psychic and magical abilities further. He or she chooses an area of expertise. (In my first coven, we were all specialists at divination.) The Initiate also begins taking a more active/participatory role in the group's rituals, and all that this entails (casting the Circle, etc.). In this way, the Witch becomes a priest or priestess of the Goddess and God.

We do not have a '3rd degree' initiation. As I said, we have only one Initiation.

[SoulFire]

Keeping in mind what everyone has said about degrees being mostly only relevant within the specific group or denomination that is granting them, those who are working as solitaries might find some helpful material in "Self-Initiation for the Solitary Witch: Attaining Higher Spirituality Through a Five-Degree System" by Shanddaramon.

The book provides a structured study program that can lead a solitary to a level of understanding that tends to surpass the usual first-degree sort of stuff. Of course the whole degree thing doesn't mean anything to anyone else so calling the stuff you learn in this book degrees is just an arbitrary label.

Though personally I have a problem with the concept of self-initiations, another good resource book is A Grimoire of Shadows by Ed Fitch, which also presents a five-leveled training system, as used in the Pagan Way. Likewise, Starhawk's book The Twelve Wild Swans presents a 4- or 5-path system in the Reclaiming Tradition.

[Ivy Artemisia]

I agree with those who've said that the degrees vary from coven to coven. In my coven, we have three degrees, plus a dedication phase.

Dedication- has made a commitment to the coven, and will take classes for at least 10 weeks, able to participate as a guest in sabbat and open esbat circles.

First Degree- dedicant has basic craft knowledge, can cast a circle, call quarters, able to participate fully in ritual. This is usually pretty quick to happen, given that all of our dedicants have at least 6 months of individual study under their belt before dedicating.

Second Degree- has completed all of the first degree studywork- really understands the whys and the hows. Every person in the coven is expected to elevate to the second degree. As a second degree one is expected to help with dedicants and Wicca 101 classes more often than a member of the First Degree. This usually takes about a year or so.

At this point, they may remain a second degree indefinitely, or may choose to pursue a path to Third Degree. This path leads to priestess status, where one could hive off or switch off with the HPS of the coven.

Third Degree- our third degree members will understand group dynamics, how to form a coven (and keep it going), ritual dynamics and writings, magickal theory, and more. There is a time-consuming process to go from Second to Third and it could take years- a portfolio of rituals and ideas is created. The reason for this is so, once they hive, they'll have the tools and knowledge to be successful.

That's just how my group rolls. :)