A Question on Bel

[zephyrbluebird]

Hey everyone I have a question on the God Bel. Well actually many questions?
I am working on a ritual for Beltaine for a book I am working on and I need to do research on the Sabbat. So any websites you could post for me, would be much appreciated.
Or if you could, post some information on Bel. Any would do.
Thanks in advance.

[Theres]

one of the theories about the origin of Beltane is that it was named after the Celtic Sun God Bel, more specifically the Welsh Belenos (or Belenus or Belios), or the Irish Bile. also known as Apollo Belenus (mostly in Gaul), showing the Celts associated this deity with the Sun. further evidence of this is the attributes of healing and light. it is probably these attributes which brought about the association with Beltane, a festival at which we celebrate the return of the Sun and all its favors.
the Gaulish Celts worshipped Apollo Belenus, and associated Him with the horse. model horses have been found at the sanctuary at St. Sabine, a thermal spring.
Bel is thought to be one of the oldest known Celtic Gods.

i've been wanting to post a history of Beltane, but it's been a hectic weekend. keep posted!

[Twilight Garden]

With Vox is a pretty informative site. Here is a link to their Beltaine Links Page (http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/beltaine/beltaine_links.html).

[DandelionDame]

I'm bumping this old thread here because I'm looking for info on the Irish god Bile more than Bel, but seeing how closely associated they are, figured this thread might be good to bump.

Anyway...

I've read the basics of Bile - means "sacred tree" in Irish Gaelic, but my confusion comes from pretty much every site I've Googled saying that Bile is the Irish version of the Welsh Bel and Beli Mawr and essentially saying that they're the same god. To all of you who are are further along in your studies than I may be, can you help me decipher how true this is? I'm on a wicked Bile kick and I want to make sure I'm getting correct information.

Some sites say that Bile is the god of the dead and the Otherworld and that he's primarily associated with trees. Others say he shares the characteristics of the gods of light, like Bel. Some others infer both. I'm trying hard to see what's Irish, what's Welsh, British, etc. and what crossed over into how the Irish made sense of this all.

Help?

[StephanieAine]

Bealtaine takes its name from "bright fire" in reference to the bonfires that are customary during the festival. I don't believe that Bel is the reason for the name "Bealtaine."

[ShadowcatX]

If I remember Correctly, Marduk eventually came to be known as "Bel" meaning "Lord." I could be wrong on this point though, I'll double check and if I'm wrong I'll edit or if anyone else knows feel free to let me know.

[Philosophia]

I've read the basics of Bile - means "sacred tree" in Irish Gaelic, but my confusion comes from pretty much every site I've Googled saying that Bile is the Irish version of the Welsh Bel and Beli Mawr and essentially saying that they're the same god. To all of you who are are further along in your studies than I may be, can you help me decipher how true this is? I'm on a wicked Bile kick and I want to make sure I'm getting correct information.
Some sites say that Bile is the god of the dead and the Otherworld and that he's primarily associated with trees. Others say he shares the characteristics of the gods of light, like Bel. Some others infer both. I'm trying hard to see what's Irish, what's Welsh, British, etc. and what crossed over into how the Irish made sense of this all.

http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/gods&goddesses/celtic/belenos_brigantia.html (http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/gods&goddesses/celtic/belenos_brigantia.html)

I don't know if this site offers any help in the linguistic department but it might.

[Verthandi]

Darn, a friend of mine is researching Bel, but she's at basic right now (a month and a half left, woot), so I can't ask her what she's found.

Wish I could help you.

[DandelionDame]

Thank you all for the insights! I think I need to get a basic understanding of what it really means when things like "In Ireland his name was Bile" are written. Like, did the Irish consciously revere a god whose existence was rooted in a different country (albeit relatively close by), and give him a "nickname" of sorts? I'll be spending some quality time with Google, I'm sure! ;)

Athene, thank you for the link - very informative, and is giving me much to think about!

Edited to add: I wish your friend the absolute best in basic, Verthandi!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

DandelionDame, have you read the article written by Alexie Kondratiev, Danu and Bile: The Primordial Parents (http://www.imbas.org/articles/danu_bile.html)?

It has some very interesting points on Bile and goes into the etymology and his place in Irish lore. It might help answer some of your questions. It also has a very nice bibliography at the end which you can use for further research.

[DandelionDame]

Thank you for the link, Morag! I read that ages ago (Imbas was my big internet vice for a while), but haven't thought to go back to it recently. It would be a perfect starting point.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Well I think the really interesting point about the article was the Bile was the grandfather of Donn, one of the sons of Mil who came from the Iberian penninsula to conquer Ireland, and that even though he died at the same time as Donn, Donn is the one named as the first dead ancestor in Ireland and revered as a king of the underworld. So it's definitely not a "nickname."

Alexie, I think also mentions, that the etymology of Bile and Bel are quite different. So that in my opinon throws out Bile being the same god as Bel/Belenos/Beli Mawr.

[DandelionDame]

I'm glad they didn't give their gods nicknames - that would have kind of freaked me out. :)

Especially interesting in that Imbas article (that Alexei is a wicked smartypants - I've started and re-started his Apple Branch book a couple of times - don't want to miss a beat!) was when he said

"In literary Irish -- and especially in the praise-poetry the filí addressed to their aristocratic patrons -- the term bile is often applied to the scions of noble families, with the sense of 'eminent warrior'."

More food for more thought indeed!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'm glad they didn't give their gods nicknames - that would have kind of freaked me out. :)

It might be a bit disturbing to hear the ancient Irish say something along the lines of "Yo dude, can I get some wicked waves? Surfing is like totally radical!" when addressing Mannanan mac Lir. :toofless:


Especially interesting in that Imbas article (that Alexei is a wicked smartypants - I've started and re-started his Apple Branch book a couple of times - don't want to miss a beat!) was when he said

I've only read his whole book through once, some parts multiple times. I though the information (history, etymology, etc.) was great. The rituals he provide though, had way too much of a Wiccan feel to them for my taste.


"In literary Irish -- and especially in the praise-poetry the filí addressed to their aristocratic patrons -- the term bile is often applied to the scions of noble families, with the sense of 'eminent warrior'."

More food for more thought indeed!

Huh. I don't rememeber that part from the dozen or so times I've read the article. Sometimes it takes a new set of eyes to pull something out that you've been missing. Thanks! :floating:

[DandelionDame]

Giggling like a schoolgirl at the very idea of someone not only calling Manaanan Mac Lir "Dude", but appealing to him for waves for surfing. Heh!

I may have noticed the warrior comment because it has been popping up for me a LOT the past couple of days, bizarrely enough. Don't get it, but there it is.

I haven't checked out Alexei's rituals yet - they're kinda Wiccan? Weird. And huh? (runs off to check that out - call it morbid fascination)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I thought it was an amusing thought. Even more amusing is to actually picture Mannanan mac Lir on a surfboard. :bigredgri

Well, Nantonos and I have discussed Alexie's rituals before and we were of the opinion that it was done to appeal to a broader audience. The rest of the book is very good, so I don't think it does that much harm as long as people realize that these are rituals of his own making and not authentic Gaelic rituals, which I believe he even stresses in the book.

Speaking of Alexie, I don't know if you're a part of the IMBAS yahoo group, but he is a list member there and posts frequently. He also has a yahoo group to discuss his book. I've not checked that one out, but several people on the IMBAS list are on the other as well.

[DandelionDame]

I thought it was an amusing thought. Even more amusing is to actually picture Mannanan mac Lir on a surfboard. :bigredgri

:lol: I'm not sure why, but I'm picturing that ending up with a horribly smashed surfboard being sworn at by... well, you know... Him. I'm sure he'd be great at surfing, but it's kinda fun to picture him not so great at surfing.



Well, Nantonos and I have discussed Alexie's rituals before and we were of the opinion that it was done to appeal to a broader audience. The rest of the book is very good, so I don't think it does that much harm as long as people realize that these are rituals of his own making and not authentic Gaelic rituals, which I believe he even stresses in the book.
Oh yeah - I seem to remember reading that thread a while back!



Speaking of Alexie, I don't know if you're a part of the IMBAS yahoo group, but he is a list member there and posts frequently. He also has a yahoo group to discuss his book. I've not checked that one out, but several people on the IMBAS list are on the other as well.
I shall look into that (I'd never heard that before) - sounds very intriguing. Thank you!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

:lol: I'm not sure why, but I'm picturing that ending up with a horribly smashed surfboard being sworn at by... well, you know... Him. I'm sure he'd be great at surfing, but it's kinda fun to picture him not so great at surfing.

Cowabunga, dude!!! :lol:


I shall look into that (I'd never heard that before) - sounds very intriguing. Thank you!

Here is the link for the IMBAS mailing list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/imbas-public/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/imbas-public/)

And here is the link for the Apple Branch list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Apple_Branch/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Apple_Branch/)

[DandelionDame]

Ooooh, thank you, darlin'!

[Seren_]

Well, Nantonos and I have discussed Alexie's rituals before and we were of the opinion that it was done to appeal to a broader audience. The rest of the book is very good, so I don't think it does that much harm as long as people realize that these are rituals of his own making and not authentic Gaelic rituals, which I believe he even stresses in the book.

I think Alexei's quite open about the fact that he did want to appeal to a broader audience - or maybe had to, for his publishers etc. I don't use them, but I do find some of the gaelic prayers he has interesting.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I think Alexei's quite open about the fact that he did want to appeal to a broader audience - or maybe had to, for his publishers etc. I don't use them, but I do find some of the gaelic prayers he has interesting.

Yep. I believe he says it in the book and I know I've seen him mention it on the IMBAS list. He's a nice guy - very open to discussing his book and helping people out on parts they don't understand along with providing pronunciation if you ask.

The book in all was quite good. It's a shame he did have to modify rituals for a broader audience though. It would be nice to see something a little more authentic.