Spirituality versus Religion

[kheretsenu]

Hello everyone; long time, no post (senior year of university is getting the best of me).

At any rate, I spend a couple of days in San Jose this weekend at Pantheacon, and while I was primarily spending time with other Kemetic sorts, an observation of other attendees as well as a perusal of the convention program got me thinking about something.

My question is - are you religious, or spiritual?

I noticed in the program a great deal of language about "spirituality" but very little (though there was some) about "religion" and "faith." "Honoring," instead of "worshiping," and other similar diction. (There was also an awful lot more concerned with magic than religion, but that's not really relevant to this question.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm religious. I have faith in my gods and I do not "work with" Them - I get down on my knees before Them. It's not always been easy for me to do that, but I think I've made peace with my religious history (conservative Catholic upbringing) and can now admit that admitting that one is submissive to one's gods is not weak but rather strong; there is nothing in my eyes so great as following.

I've definitely been on the more "spiritual" side of the fence and I certainly don't see anything wrong with it. I'd just like to know what the general trend amongst non-mainstream religions is and how we feel about the topics of religion versus spirituality.

[RainInanna]

I'm not sure if I see the terms differently than you do. Here are definitions of religion from Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion), and here are definitions of spiritual on Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spiritual) (I chose "spiritual" rather than "spirituality" because the latter seemed to simply say "the quality or state of being spiritual"). I tend to see religion as referring to a specific set or framework of beliefs, whereas spiritual suggests more of something that pertains to or involves spirit. The former involves more structure, the latter is simply belief. Since I don't practice within a specific framework and my beliefs and activities change as I grow, I tend to think of myself as spiritual not religious.

That said, as to your comments about whether one worships or works with the gods, I can certainly understand that. I was Kemetic myself for awhile and believe me, everytime someone asks me about "using" Sekhmet, it makes me cringe. However, my deity views are rather flexible. Right now I consider myself panentheistic and animistic, meaning I focus on the Sacred as immanent within and around me, and understand it to exist as the spirit that inhabits all things. I believe it can and does manifest as deities, as well as archetypes, or any other form that is meaningful. Kind of like Netjeru and Netjer, if you know what I mean? Right now I don't worship specific gods, though I have and probably will again.

When I do recognize deities as individuals I respect them as complete beings that are more powerful and ancient than myself. Like I said, it isn't wise to mouth off to Sekhmet :D But when god is within me and in the trees and flowers and earth around me, I see it more as kin then higher up. To me it can and is both.

[Tranquility]

I think that many people are afraid to draw on the Judeo-Christian concepts.. (or I suppose religious could be substituted). Worshipping ties in with sounding religious (Stereotypically), and although I'm sure you'll find many Pagans that consider their path a religion, the ones I've encountered have called it a spirituality or "walk" of life.

If we look at both of these words according to their dictionary definitions, I would in fact be considered religious. I consider myself spiritual, only meaning that I believe there is something great to life, something more than this physical being.

Dictionary Definitions of Religious:
1)strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
2) A framework of beliefs relating to supernatural or superhuman beings or forces that transcend the everyday material world.
3) generally a belief in a deity and practice of worship, action, and/or thought related to that deity. Loosely, any specific system of code of ethics, values, and belief.

In Sum: A believe in the divine that transcends the mundane world (I'm sure many of us could be clumped into this).

Dictionary definitions of spiritual:

Now THIS I found interesting. The first result from define: at google.com came up with RELIGIOUS when I searched for spiritual. Now, at Dictionary.com I got the following results:

of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature
of or pertaining to sacred things or matters; religious; devotional; sacred.


There isn't much different between the two according to every definition I could find. Both believe in something beyond the mundane, but religious specifically mentions the Divine or Supernatural. Spiritual apparently relates to matters of the soul (well what is the soul?? another discussion..).

Personally, I use the world spiritual for several reasons. 1) My "spirituality" (aka beliefs) change, via personal experiences, science, etc. I don't feel that religion changes as much, and I don't feel comfortable referring to my practice as a religion. 2) I use the word spirituality to clearly define that it is not the same as religion (when people hear spiritual, they often hear sometihng like new age, or at least non-christian). For me, that's what I want to get across. Non-Christian - but no other implications.

Most people think of Religious = Rules, Dogma, Traditional, Spoonfed, Group worship. Spiritual = free verse, personal exploration. That may or may not be true, but that's partially why I call myself spiritual and not religious. They may be stereotypically clumped as:

In a nutshell: spiritual to me means that I'm a personal seeker of the truth. I don't accept all these written rules and dogmas about my life or practice. My spirituality is based on personal exploration, not a book, person, or otherwise. Hope that breaks the surface a bit.. lol.

[kheretsenu]

That is interesting, the dictionary definitions are so similar, and yet I perceive a huge difference in connotation.

My practices don't come out of a book either (believe it or not the Book of the Dead is not like the Bible, heh), and yet I feel more on the religious side of things.

I need to think some more on this subject, because I think it's a crucial distinction. Are these "paths," "belief systems," or "religions" that we're following? Obviously, a lot of the time, they're all three and a number of other things too.

[inkywitch]

I am spiritual because I don't follow a belief system, I follow my own. I'm also not very structure and strict in how I practice.

I 'honor' deity, because I don't know them enough to worship them (or it), but I like to be open, and respectful.

[Xirian]

My question is - are you religious, or spiritual?
I would have to say that at this point in my life, I am much more spiritual than religious. I was really religious for a long time, but that really cut into my understanding, analyzing and connecting with my spiritual nature. Asking questions and not simply trusting that what the bible said was fact. That was how I was raised and much of the time I was doing door-to-door work, studying 7 times or more a week and really didn't have much time to reflect on what I was learning from a spiritual frame of mind.

Now that I have that time, I am taking it to focus specifically on my spiritual nature.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm religious. I have faith in my gods and I do not "work with" Them - I get down on my knees before Them. It's not always been easy for me to do that, but I think I've made peace with my religious history (conservative Catholic upbringing) and can now admit that admitting that one is submissive to one's gods is not weak but rather strong; there is nothing in my eyes so great as following.
I think if this is what you need, then this is wonderful for you. It wasn't something that I needed, religion I mean. I really was searching for my spiritual side. And now that I've found it, I'm going to learn as much about it in relation to other things that I can.

I am not religious. However, I am very interested in religious philosophy, from all different types of religions. I feel that just focusing on my spirituality allows me the freedom to study as many religions that I can and try to relate them to my spiritual path, if I can. It's very fun and rewarding. I've learned a lot about myself by doing such.

I communicate with deities, but I do not worship them because in relation to my practices and path, their most important quality is that they are made up of energy, IMO. Something that everything in the universe possesses. I do speak to them and in my head see them as individual beings, but I do not worship energy, because it is and always will be whether I pay attention to it or not and therefore, in my mind, doesn't warrent my faithful reverence to it. I already believe in it.

I guess what I'm saying is, that energy and connection to energy on a spiritual level has been what I've been looking for and I'm really only interested in that now. In the future, I may feel that having faith in something that I don't exactly know the truth about, will be better for me. Who know's what the future holds? But because of my perspective and upbringing and what religions meant to me then, I have to go with what feels right and religion is it right now. Perhaps in the future, I'll have a completely different view of religion than I do now.

Gosh, I hope that made sense.

[Glory]

I voted 'Spiritual'.

This is because I'm agnostic right now - I need to decide where I stand on the nature of gods, and then I will find which gods call to me. And even then, I will still 'honour' rather than 'worship', because I would need to have utter faith and belief in those gods to do the latter, and I think that will take time, patience and courage.

So right now, I'm a spiritual person. I'm not seeking out gods to worship, I'm just trying to pave my own path, and if gods are involved, they will come to me.

[Fiamma]

I am both spiritual and religious.
I worship the gods, and fully agree with what keretsenu said:

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm religious. I have faith in my gods and I do not "work with" Them - I get down on my knees before Them. It's not always been easy for me to do that, but I think I've made peace with my religious history (conservative Catholic upbringing) and can now admit that admitting that one is submissive to one's gods is not weak but rather strong; there is nothing in my eyes so great as following.


I do not refer to my religions as "path" and I do believe that many folks who refuse to use words like "religion" and "worship" because of Christian use don't fully understand what the words mean. Note, I did not say all, so if you feel you're an exception...well, you might very well be. However I can tell you that I've seen a number of people change their minds about the "wrongness" these words upon looknig them up in a thesaurus.

I guess you would call me duotraditional, as I do practice two religions.

[Vigdisdotter]

how we feel about the topics of religion versus spirituality.

I probably have a different definition of "spiritual" and "religious" then you.

To me, Religion is about the group. It's community ideas and activities.

While Spirituality is the thoughts and actions of the individual.

And yes, it's more then possible to be both at the same time.

It's also possible to have spirituality without religion. But when it's the other way (religion without spirituality) things become very hollow because one's personal understanding of/relationship with the universe and it's mysteries isn't present, and the "religion" becomes a matter of rote or going through the motions.

[Xirian]

To me, Religion is about the group. It's community ideas and activities.

While Spirituality is the thoughts and actions of the individual.

And yes, it's more then possible to be both at the same time.

I agree with this very much.

[plumedsnake]

definations definations definations! Here are mine: Spirit is an aspect of the human being so everybody is spiritual whether you like it or not. One might not be very developed spiritually but we are all still spiritual being. The dichotomy between spiritual and religious is a false one. Not everybody is effectively religious. For me REligion is a system whereby any Dis-Ease is removed and one is reharmonised with one's condition. The atheist plutocrat who looks for salvation and harmony by making more money is in my opinion merely practicing an ineffective religion. He has his beliefs about how to make the best of life and he pursues the path. The person who practices within a system that gives him correct information about the spirit world and who to achieve balance and harmony in his life is practicing an effective religion. Mind you, I'm not saying True or FAlse religion, just Effective and INeffective.

[Glory]

I feel like religion is a system set up by someone else that you subscribe to... spirituality is how you practice within it.

EDIT: Maybe. Haha. I've never been religious so that's an outsiders point of view.

[Lyrien]

Spiritual because my definition of religion is too structured to apply to me.

Honor because my god ideal does not require, nor want worship.

[Fiamma]

Spiritual because my definition of religion is too structured to apply to me.

Honor because my god ideal does not require, nor want worship.


what precisely is your definition of "religion"? How is it different from commonly-accepted definitions?

How do you define "worship" versus "honor"?

[Athena-Nadine]

I am very religious. That I have no need or desire to look outside my gods and my religion does not exclude me from being spiritual, nor does it make me close minded or any other nonsensical thing that some would state. It just means that my religion, like that of all others (or the lack thereof), is defined by my spirituality.

I serve my gods. I worship my gods. I do not work with Them, nor do I demand anything of Them.

[TaysatWesir]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm religious. I have faith in my gods and I do not "work with" Them - I get down on my knees before Them. It's not always been easy for me to do that, but I think I've made peace with my religious history (conservative Catholic upbringing) and can now admit that admitting that one is submissive to one's gods is not weak but rather strong; there is nothing in my eyes so great as following.

I'm the same. :)

[LadyCelt]

I'd say I'm both.

I wasn't raised in church, so I wasn't doctored in dogma etc. I went to youth group breifly, but I didn't really get the spiritual connection back then. For me, it is good to have a foundation of scriptures etc, but you also need to apply it to your life and your spirit. What good is it to read and be able to recite scriptures if you don't live it and relate to it? What good is it if there is no connection within your spirit?

[Crystal_Raye]

I think I'm both. I follow different beliefs from different religions to form my own spirituality.

[Shanti]

I'm atheist so I'm not religious but I am very spiritual.

[plumedsnake]

often when I meet people and they talk to me of spiritual experiences and feeling spiritual, I often wonder whether in actual fact they are talking about emotional experiences. Some emotional experiences can be very intense and some preachers and religious leaders are quite good at working up a storm in the hearts of their congregation. Could that be described as a spiritual phenomenon. If so, then is going to listen to a motivational speaker also a spiritual experience?

[coyoger]

I too am not so sure that the terms are that different. I said I was spiritual because I don't follow any orginized themed religion. To me religion is used to describe a path, this is what you do and how you do it. Spirit resides in the heart. I bow to my gods, and when I die, then, and only then, will I work with them. If I'm lucky.

[Arcana]

I voted "spiritual". There really isn't a set framework to my beliefs, and my approach to religion is an eclectic one. Building further on that, I don't have an active relationship with the Gods and instead focus mainly on spiritual advancement through my own means. Scripture and ritual can be useful to me along the way, but overall, that usefulness is limited.

[plumedsnake]

I voted "spiritual". There really isn't a set framework to my beliefs, and my approach to religion is an eclectic one.

This suggests, and I have got this impression from reading and talking to other people about their beliefs, that spiritual just means unstructured. My understanding of spirit and spiritual things are quite different. I do belief that there are spiritual laws and that there are definite entities that we call spirits. I believe that human beings are spiritual. Most people would say we have a spirit, I would say we are, each and everyone of us, a spirit.
I don't get this dichotomy between spiritual and religious. It really totally puzzles me.

And as for religion, talking to people it seems to me that most people feel that religion is something that you choose and/or some can even just make up for themselves. That's like saying,'okay gravity doesn't exist for me because I choose not to believe in gravity'. Again I believe that religion is based on certain laws. I don't believe that there are different religions in the world, but rather that there are different approaches to religion. Not having an institutionally dictated approach to religion does not amount to not being religious.

[Enlightenment1]

I would say I'm both, religious and spiritual. One without the other seems strange to me.

[cheddarsox]

I am always spiritual, have a spiritual aspect to my life. There have been times when I was without religion...a particular focus or direction that my spirituality showed itself.

I have a religion now, and it is one way in which my spirituality expresses itself, but not the only way.

I consider religion to be a language my spirituality uses, or a media, like an artist can use different media, my spirituality can express itself in different religions...or in some other way.

My spirituality doesn't go away, or dry up when I am not practicing a religion, a particular religion is just one dance it can do out of all the possible dances.

cheddar

[Venutius]

I think the major issue is the definitions of the terms. It seems to me, if you look carefully, that apganism has been pushed outside of the term religion, because of interpretations of mainly Christian based scolars etc.

For example, a religion is not allowed to have initiation rituals that would explude members of the public. It should also have some sort of dogma, so technically most of us are not religous according to many scholars, including Pagan ones.

I recently had a massive argument with a pagan scholar, because I was arguing that paganism should be regarded as a religion. She argued most forcefully against this, even started getting very personal. But as I see it, paganism was the first religion of these lands and it is paganism that should set the standard as to what religion is. And in that context, spirituality and religion are very similar terms indeed.

[cheddarsox]

I think the major issue is the definitions of the terms. It seems to me, if you look carefully, that apganism has been pushed outside of the term religion, because of interpretations of mainly Christian based scolars etc.

For example, a religion is not allowed to have initiation rituals that would explude members of the public. It should also have some sort of dogma, so technically most of us are not religous according to many scholars, including Pagan ones.

I recently had a massive argument with a pagan scholar, because I was arguing that paganism should be regarded as a religion. She argued most forcefully against this, even started getting very personal. But as I see it, paganism was the first religion of these lands and it is paganism that should set the standard as to what religion is. And in that context, spirituality and religion are very similar terms indeed.

I think the issue might be that paganism...the whole big mish mosh of beliefs and practices...is not a religion, there are religions within paganism, but just generic paganism is not a religion, but a collection of religions, practices, interest groups, etc.

Also, as far as I know non public initiations do not define whether something is a religion or not. There are non-pagan faiths that have these that are clearly considered religions by many people.

there are many people within the pagan community that are vehemently anti-religious and would go to blows with you if you tried to label their practice a religion. Many came to paganism because they dislike or had negative experiences with religion.

Indeed, in my life, I've met more pagans that refused the religion term than any other variety of spiritual people. So I am not surprised that you ran into such an opinion from a pagan scholar.

cheddar

[Fiamma]

For example, a religion is not allowed to have initiation rituals that would explude members of the public. It should also have some sort of dogma, so technically most of us are not religous according to many scholars, including Pagan ones.


Huh? I've never heard either of these things.

I recently had a massive argument with a pagan scholar, because I was arguing that paganism should be regarded as a religion. She argued most forcefully against this, even started getting very personal. But as I see it, paganism was the first religion of these lands and it is paganism that should set the standard as to what religion is. And in that context, spirituality and religion are very similar terms indeed.

Paganism is not a religion. Now, I don't know what points were argued between you and this scholar, but there is no one single religion called "paganism". There are many religions that fall under the pagan umbrella.

[Fiamma]

I think the issue might be that paganism...the whole big mish mosh of beliefs and practices...is not a religion, there are religions within paganism, but just generic paganism is not a religion, but a collection of religions, practices, interest groups, etc.

yes. exactly.

Also, as far as I know non public initiations do not define whether something is a religion or not. There are non-pagan faiths that have these that are clearly considered religions by many people.

First communion, confirmation, baptism (of anyone able to make the choice) are all examples of initiations- even if the word is never used.

there are many people within the pagan community that are vehemently anti-religious and would go to blows with you if you tried to label their practice a religion. Many came to paganism because they dislike or had negative experiences with religion.

Which is really kinda sad and narrow-minded I think. I mean, yeah it sucks that some particular subsets of religion do horrible things and abuse it....but that's not the whole of religion by any stretch.

[two_named_sue]

I think the reason that it is so hard to agree on a definate distinction between spirituality and religion is because both words have multiple meanings and both are open to individual interpretation. Take religion first. In the dictionary it has 4 different meanings listed for the word, the first being "supernatural constraint". Perhaps this is why so many Pagans feel that they are not religious but rather spiritual because the word religion to them means limitations and retraint. The second definition given is the "service of a God or the supernatural". Perhaps many people simply see religion as a type of servitude rather than spirituality which by definition is more personal (catered to the individual) and free-spirited. Words I see regularly used when describing religious practice is "system" or "organized", and many Pagans don't believe that those words describe their lifestyle. So I can understand why so many Pagans out there say "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual." I tend to lean toward that slogan myself. I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church, and when I think of religion that's what I think of. And honestly, I'd rather not think of those days. So I say "I'm a spiritual being." It's just a personal choice, opinion, whatever. So of course I'd never tell a Pagan who said they were religious, "Oh you're not at all Pagan then because you're religious." Which I have heard some Pagans tell other Pagans who still held on to some of their Christian traditions - like praying before meals. The beauty of Paganism is that each of us can be unique. Diversity is what makes this path so great. So I guess in short I say "Who cares?!" lol I hope no one finds that last remark insensitive or rude because it was really just meant to be humorous. ^_^

[Nox_Mortus]

I consider myself religious because I work within a particular belief system, which is all I consider religion to be.