Something I've been wondering...

[Danustouch]

I hear stories, and have seen first hand, women who flirt with men whom they know are involved with another woman, or who are married to other women. Why? I just don't get it. I think the worst cases are those in which a woman KNOWS the woman who the guy she was chasing was involved with. I dunno. Me, I've never dated a married man, or flirted with a married man, or a man involved with a woman. At least not knowingly. I got involved with a guy only to find out LATER that he was involved with another woman, at one point in my life. But..had I known, I wouldn't have given the guy a passing thought. I've always wondered about people who would deliberately get involved with a "Taken" man. I know it goes the other way around, too folks. But..I just know someone who this has happened to recently, and she keeps asking why this has happened, why women would do this to another woman. And I have no answers for her. Yes..I know it takes two to tango, and have told her as much. But...while she agree's, and has dealt with the man in the situation, she's left with alot of anger towards the "other woman".

Is there any sort of psychological phenomena this is associated with? I've heard theories stating that a woman who does this sort of thing, has fear of intimacy, and thus chooses an unattainable man. And I've heard a theory about it being really low self esteem...that perhaps if she could "Reel In" a married guy, that she would feel somehow better than the wife/girlfriend/partner whom she has stolen a partner from.

But..is that all? Are there other possibilities???

[Old Witch]

I think it has something to do with being stupid ( no matter how intelligent she is ) mean spirited, ( no matter how "nice" she seems ) jealous, ( not that she would ever admit it to herself ) and pretty much all that you said Danustouch......

[Earthcup]

All of the above!

What gets me is women who steal a guy from someone else and then gets all hurt and shocked when he cheats on them. He was cheating on someone else to be with her and she thinks it's going to stop there?!?!?:rolleyes:

[Danustouch]

LOL..yep Earthcup..that's always been my feeling to. I love seeing these idiots on Jerry Springer : "Well...My sister stole my boyfriend"..."Yeah..but she stole him from me FIRST". Hello...eegit, ever hear of Karma? Do you REALLY want to be involved with a guy who would cheat on your SISTER??? Duh!

anyway..these women really get on my nerves. I was watching a movie the other day, which featured such a woman...My hubby nearly dropped his jaw when I screamed out "FEMALE DOG" only not as nicely...at the top of my lungs. LOL.

I hate to see women go through this B.S. It's happened to me in the past, so I know how it feels. It just makes me want to take hold of these manipulative type women, and shake the living daylights out of them!

[Old Witch]

" Oh, but he really loves me. He'll be different with me"....Oh yeah???

[Danustouch]

LOL..yep Old Witch...what kills me, is that these women tend to think they know the guy BETTER than the woman he's been dating for months/years/a decade. Better than the woman he's lived with..slept with..etc. In the case of which I'm speaking, this guy kept giving the manipulative woman sob stories about what he wasn't getting from his mate. And the chick just kept stroking his ego, "ohhh..you are so wonderful..so smart...so ..blah, blah, blah". I wonder if this chick ever stopped to wonder if maybe the reason why his girlfriend wasn't *cough* indulging him, was because he'd treated her like crap for six months. Ya know? Oy.

[Earthcup]

:T Another one that gets me is when guys cheat and their wife forces them back into being faithful. Then after realizing there isn't anything to save anymore she decides to leave and gets accused of cheating on him with everyone! Like he never did anything wrong!

Jerry Springer is awful. My grandma sends my grandpa to the store everyday so she watch Springer without him knowing. All she does is sit there and tsk tsk about how awful the world has become... of course I doubt she knows he listens to Britney Spears on the way to the store...:D

[Earthcup]

This reminds me of someone I saw today. I haven't seen this guy in awhile but he dumped his same age girlfriend of four years to date a 15 yo. He was 21 at the time and wouldn't listen to any of his friends about what he was getting himself into. "But I love her!"

Today I saw him, in a town he swore he hated, walking along holding hands with another HS age girl and he's 24 now.....

It's really bizarre how some people never learn..:rolleyes:

[Danustouch]

Ick Earthcup...lol. One day, one of these girls Daddy's is gonna get a hold of him....won't be a pretty day at all!

[Flar's Freyja]

Don't get me started. My ex-husband cheated on me for 12 years, with women who came to my home, ate my food, and played with my kids ~ and acted like they were my friends.

[Danustouch]

Freyja..what do you really think (with your psychological background, being a social worker, and all), causes them to behave this way??? Is it the reasons I previously stated, or does it all boil down to selfishness?????

[Earthcup]

He said her mother liked him so it was ok. However under Georgia law if she changed her mind she could have had him locked up!

I always assumed the girl would end up pregnant and they'd marry but apparently he's moved to a different county and still dating women who don't threaten him.

There were plenty of women his age interested in him but he was only interested in girls with a great body who were his intellectual inferior, which meant they were pretty stupid.

People do really stupid things in relationships. The worst thing that ever happened to me was being proposed to and after telling him I wasn't ready for that yet I found out he had been dating someone else who was more than willing to get married. They're divorced now and he still doesn't have the "perfect family" he wanted so badly. I still feel like a complete idiot everytime I think of him. :(

[Earthcup]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Freyja..what do you really think (with your psychological background, being a social worker, and all), causes them to behave this way??? Is it the reasons I previously stated, or does it all boil down to selfishness?????

To paraphrase Olympia Dukakis, it's because they fear death. :lol:

The New Cow Theory works for me... :D

[Danustouch]

I just watched that movie Earthcup! I loved it!

[Earthcup]

"Moonstruck" or the Ashley Judd one?

I love them both, but then I'll watch anything with the Wolverine guy in it!:loveduv:

[flar7]

I agree with what you said earlier Danu. They seek the safe bet
(probably subconscious) so that it can be fun but not serious or
permanent...fear of being tied down to the wrong guy.

I am divorced, but still have my wedding ring. And when I used to
go out, I had better luck if I wore it....(as in meeting and flirting
with a girl/woman) Is very wierd.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Freyja..what do you really think (with your psychological background, being a social worker, and all), causes them to behave this way??? Is it the reasons I previously stated, or does it all boil down to selfishness?????

I agree with you to some extent, Danustouch. I think that there are a lot of women who consciously or unconsciously look for unavailable men. This could be for many reasons, including insecurity about themselves, a history of failed relationships and fear that they can't make it in a real relationship. I also believe that there are some who are purely selfish and will go after what they want no matter who they hurt. That's a dysfunction in itself. Actually, I'd say the correct word is self-centered.

Professional or not, it's a very sore subject with me. I divorced him 14 years ago and it still hurts. I don't understand why married men never seem to be satisfied with what they've got.
But that's another thread.

[kblackthorne]

Why do I flirt with men/women who are taken? Because they are safe, off limits, and don't take me seriously. I'm married, not dead, and some innocent flirtation can be fun, when both parties know that's all it is.

Why do women set out to break up relationships?

Let me tell you a true story.

The year I was studying to become Wiccan, I had 2 roommates. One we'll call Jen, the other Nora.

Nora had problems with men. With a few exceptions, she considered all of them "creeps". When Jen's boyfriend wrote poetry for Jen, Nora decided he was a dangerous psychotic who must be dumped!

Now, in the 3 years I'd known Nora at that time, she'd only dated one guy. (Nice guy -- friend of mine.) It didn't end too badly -- they were still friends afterwards.

But around the end of that year, she became attracted to a guy she worked in the lab with.

He was married.

She set out to break up that marriage.

Her logic was this: Since all men are scum, he was going to leave his wife anyway, sooner or later. Men do -- they're jerks. So she, Nora, was just taking advantage of something that was inevitable... and was probably doing Tom's wife a favor, by making it happen sooner rather than later.

And it wasn't like she had done something WRONG, like sleeping with a married man.

(The last was a dig at me. Earlier in the year, I'd had a relationship with a man I met after his marriage was over, but before the divorce papers had arrived. His sister was a friend of mine, which was how we met. Through his sister, I'd known his marriage was over for some time before the divorce even started. There was no possiblity of reconciliation. And he'd been moved out for months before we met.

Yet in Nora's eyes, what I had done was wrong, and what she had done was right.)

[Earthcup]

There's a fine line between innocent flirtation and "up to somethin". After several crossed wires I gave up. Flirting's an art I'm not skilled at.

Where does innocent fun become "up to somethin" anyway?

I goof off with guys at work and one of them was certain I'd fallen for him. Of course I try to flirt with a guy I like and he starts asking me for advice on asking out someone else. I'm not even sure where to start when it comes to women. :(

[Flar's Freyja]

I agree, Earthcup. I honestly don't believe in a "harmless" flirt.

[Rubi Waters]

I had a friend like that she only went after married (or taken) men. for her it was a control thing. it always drove me nuts when she did that. But she was such a good friend to me my husband (at the time ) was safe. Ok so i was just a little bit nieve(sp?) But the way she treated them was with total control. Imagine a trained dog!

[Danustouch]

This is a long, and twisted tale.

The friend who called me is an old friend from highschool. When we were in highschool, she dated men. When I went off to College, she went into the airforce, got discharged, and got married, had a child. Her husband cheated on her, and she left him. Soon afterward, she "discovered" she was a Lesbian. Had a few short affairs with women. And then her ex husband called, they went out, he apologized for what he'd done...she decided then that she was really bisexual, and got back together with her husband. Things didn't work out this time, though this time, he didn't cheat on her. She had another relationship with a woman, which didn't work out. Met a guy, and four months later, moved in with him. They've been living together for Six months, now. Lately, this guy had been coming home late from work, and making excuses about having "problems" with his employee's that he had to straighten out. While going through his laundry, she found a slip of paper with a number on it. She asked him whose number it was, and he said it was one of his employee's numbers, and he had to call "Her" in the morning, to remind her to bring something to work with her that day. The next morning, he rushed out the door, and didn't call anyone before he left. My friend thought it was odd...but..dismissed it. She called him at work that day, and he told her he'd be home late again. Her child was with her exboyfriend for a few days, so...she thought she'd pick her boyfriend up some Chinese takeout, and bring it to him at work. When she showed up she found another woman in his office with him, sitting on the edge of his desk, sipping coffee, and giggling. He looked surprised, and none too thrilled that she'd shown up. She kind of flipped out. He told her she was being paranoid, and after a while, he admitted that he'd been "Flirting" with this woman..but nothing more. She happened to glance down at his desk, and saw that the telephone book was laying open, and what page should it be opened to? The page for Hotels. He tried to make excuses that "Susan" (the other employee), had family flying in, and they needed a place to stay, so he was helping her find reservations. Ummhmmm.. I see...a fully capable receptionist needed HIS help to find reservations. Sound a little off? It did to my friend. She stormed out of the office, and up to the girls desk, and asked what the hell was going on. The girl just smiled, and said.."Nothing. We were just talking. Get a grip..yadda yadda yadda". So..my friend, put on her sweet contrite face..and said.."oh..i'm terribly sorry. i don't know what has gotten into me. I think i'll just go home and try to calm down. oh..by the way...If you're family is looking for a good hotel, they should try the ....(name of motor lodge here). " the girl looked at her and said "Why would my parents need a place to stay?" Caught.

She has no proof that anything HAD happened...yet. But..she has a pretty good inkling of what was GOING to happen. I don't know how she restrained herself from strangling the girl, but she left, went home, and when her boyfriend got home that night, she had barricaded herself in the bedroom. Right now, she is trying to find another apartment for her and her child.

At this point, she feels she cannot trust women, because of what this woman did. And she feels that she cannot trust men, because of what her husband, and now her boyfriend did. This has thrown her into another identity crisis, amongst all of the other emotional crap she's dealing with as a result of this.

I have gone through this type of thing in the past, too. So I can sympathize with her. But...I have always wondered why the women who messed with things in my relationships, did the things that they did too. So I don't know how to advise her.

Are women just as much dogs, as the men who go out and do this sort of thing? Ugh.

I still have trust issues, constantly, even with my hubby. Things that have happened in our relationship, and in my past relationships, make it very difficult for me to trust. And what's worse, is I hold suspect any woman who comes anywhere near him..because of all the crappy things that have happened to me in the past. It just sucks that people who believe in faithfullness, and honesty, get dealt the crappy hands in life :(

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Danustouch
At this point, she feels she cannot trust women, because of what this woman did. And she feels that she cannot trust men, because of what her husband, and now her boyfriend did. This has thrown her into another identity crisis, amongst all of the other emotional crap she's dealing with as a result of this.

I have gone through this type of thing in the past, too. So I can sympathize with her. But...I have always wondered why the women who messed with things in my relationships, did the things that they did too. So I don't know how to advise her.

Are women just as much dogs, as the men who go out and do this sort of thing? Ugh.

I still have trust issues, constantly, even with my hubby. Things that have happened in our relationship, and in my past relationships, make it very difficult for me to trust. And what's worse, is I hold suspect any woman who comes anywhere near him..because of all the crappy things that have happened to me in the past. It just sucks that people who believe in faithfullness, and honesty, get dealt the crappy hands in life :(

Ah, yes, the trust demons......however do we banish them? As I stated in my earlier post, I had to deal with women who professed to be my friends. I would have felt better if they had been his co-workers, etc. I have been extremely selective about who I choose as female friends for a long time. Oddly, one of them ended up sincerely regretting what she'd done and apologized to me a few years later. I am one who believed in faithfulness and honesty and it's a struggle not to lose hope in those virtues.....

However ~ one thing that I should have stated was that "it takes two." My ex-husband was fully aware that he was married. Once he started engaging in this behavior and getting away with it, the more of a pattern it became. I didn't figure it out until I wanted to take an evening job to save on child care and he made threats, not because he didn't want to baby-sit, but because that was his carousing time.

I also can't help but wonder if some of these women may be on a revenge quest; i.e., someone did it to them and this is the payback. Twisted thinking, I know. On the other side of the issue, I have been hit on by several men in my social circle who claim to be euphorically happy in their marriages or long-term relationships. :confused: Now that really sickens me.

But that's another thread...(hmm, new signature, perhaps?)

[shnen]

Women are women's worst enemy... I have found this out too much... but also we have to remember it takes two to tango.

Being a single female, I would never knowingly be involved with a guy in a relationship, any kind of relationship (girlfriend or wife, etc.) I have never been able to get why this happens... :(

[Phoenix Blue]

I think partners who cheat on one-another have serious issues regarding trust, self-esteem, and/or communication.

**Shrugs** It's a shame, really. . . I'm a proponent of polyamoury, as some things are just too much fun not to share. :p But that requires a lot of trust and communication and self-esteem that many monogamous couples don't have to begin with, as well as a complete lack of jealousy. It's not cut out for everyone.

I believe any good relationship--polyamorous or monogamous--focuses on communication and trust. If you lose either of these, get help; if you lose both, get out.

[WandererInGray]

*puzzled face*

And here I thought all this time that the definition of Flirting was "harmless fun"....

[Medusa @ Dawn]

I believe in polyamoury but that's just because my marriage sucks!

Just kidding (I think)...
Now that I'm 30 I'd totally go for a polyamorous relationship but I think there has to be certain rules to it. My dh could never follow those rules because he has very low self esteem.

I was one of those teens who went for older and attached men and it was very much a control thing. I have to have control of every aspect of my life or I go into these very strange depressions.

I've gotten over that since I'm older. Now, I hardly find anyone even remotely atrractive.

That sucks, what happened to your friend. I'm one of those people who don't blame the women though. It's the man who gets testosterone poisoning and can't think about what he's doing anymore. My husband has had this happen in the past and though I'm sure I made my point before anything actually happened, he was walking that fine line and didn't even realize it.

Medusa @ Dawn

[Flar's Freyja]

Not to play :devil:'s advocate, but I really should state that there are some who honestly do fall in love. Back to my psych background, it is interesting that after a divorce, men remarry quicker than women do. Often, the woman they really wanted comes along not long after.

I've never been comfortable with the polyamourous thing. (Where's that spell checker, Mol?) I've always felt strongly about monogamy. Recently a pagan friend accused me of hanging on to Christian values because of that? I've had that value since I was a teenager and it's never changed. Maybe it's just a Taurus thing.

[Phoenix Blue]

:lol: I'm sure it's a Taurus thing. . . you possessive Taurus women, you! **Winks at Wanderer, who is also a Taurus Girl**

Ironically, I was one of the men who honestly did fall in love--Wanderer and I became emotionally involved online about the same time I started divorce proceedings with my ex. We didn't actually meet until after the divorce was final, though.

Also ironically, it was my bad marriage that had me looking for love elsewhere, to some extent. It was a very abusive marriage, in every conceivable way. . . the only love within the relationship was of the most unhealthy variety.

**Shrugs** As the quote says, experience comes from making mistakes. . . and I have enough experience to last me a lifetime in the relationship department. Now, when I look back and see her saying, "My (soon-to-be-ex-)husband hurt me, so this is what I did to screw him over," I wonder how I ever kept my sanity.

[Danustouch]

Heh..my husband is a Taurus. And he's a terrible flirt..but..not polyamourous in the least.

Being a Gemini, i've often been accused of flirtation in the past. Sometimes, I didn't even KNOW I was flirting. To some people, it just comes naturally, and you don't even realize you've been doing it. Is it harmless? I suppose that's a matter of perception. To me, at the times I was doing it, it was harmless. But did it bother my husband? Yes. So I aked him to point out the things which he thought were flirtatious, he did, and I immediately tried to correct the behavior.

It's not harmless, if it bother's your partner. If you are in a committed relationship, then your primary responsibility is to that relationship. If your partner feels insecure, or has doubts about you because of your flirting, you need to sit back and think about that for a minute, and alter your behavior, or run the risk of ruining your relationship.

My big problem with cheating, is this...If you are unfulfilled in your relationship..then why not break it off, instead of running around behind your partners back, and screwing around on them? Want your cake, and want to eat it to? Well..that is the epitomy of selfish behavior. I've told my husband, that if he ever meet's someone he wants to fool around with, don't do it behind my back. Tell me you are having these feelings, and we can try together to find out WHY..or...we can go our separate ways. But if I caught him sleeping with another woman...there would be HELL to pay.

I don't think it's a christian value, at all..monogamy, that is. I think it's a societal value. Yes, Yes, our ancient ancestors, the cavemen or what have you, may have had little use for fidelity, and monogamy..but we've evolved. Women do not have the protection of small knit villages, and clans, to keep them safe, and raise their kids communally. There are diseases out there which prey upon promiscuous behavior. The days where men needed to sew as many oats as they could to promote the survival of the race, have long past. Now..people have committed relationships, and if that is the case, screwing around behind the persons back has NO place.

But..the reason why I posted this letter this way, is because it's not just the cheating husbands/boyfriends fault either. Yes..he certainly takes alot of the blame, some would say even more of the blame. And rightfully so. However, it's also the "otherwomans'" fault. And it sickens me that so many of them get away with their behavior. In the past, when a partner cheated on me, and I confronted the woman, she actually even turned to me and said.."Well..if you made him happy, then he wouldn't have needed to cheat, would he?". What a lame azz idea! That any man "NEEDS" to cheat. If he's unhappy in a relationship, he should break it off. Simple as that. There is never any excuse for cheating...and the "other women" in these situations SHOULD know that.

I don't know..maybe it's due to stereotypes. But i've always thought that the statistics of cheating men were larger than those of cheating women. And I've also thought that women were the far more "romantic/idealistic" individuals in *most* relationships (notice, i'm not saying all. I do understand that there are exceptions to every rule). And in that case, how can women do this awful thing, to other women? Ugh.

[Danustouch]

Oh..and one point of clarification...

There are some people who just honestly fall in love? Well..at what point is THAT decision made? Usually, for two individuals to fall in love, they must be spending a large amount of time talking to eachother, flirting with eachother, being close to eachother. Shouldn't the immediate ethical response in such a situation be..."ya know..I think we're getting a little close here, and before I 'fall' I'd better back off, he's a taken man!".

I've also heard of situations where the "other woman" claims "Well..I didn't know". Now..coming from someone who was in one of those situations where I honestly didn't know..I can obviosly forgive someone for not knowing. But...my first question is.."Did you ASK?". If the person asked, and the guy lied and said he wasn't involved with anyone, then obviosly, the blame falls more on the guy involved. But..if the woman just never bothers to Ask...well..that's just the epitomy of stupidity, imo.

[Medusa @ Dawn]

I know this is going to a really unpopular stance and because I'm new I run the risk of making some enemies but I'll say it anyways

<i>My big problem with cheating, is this...If you are unfulfilled in your relationship..then why not break it off, instead of running around behind your partners back, and screwing around on them? Want your cake, and want to eat it to? Well..that is the epitomy of selfish behavior</i>

Sometimes, relationships are more complex than that. And sometimes staying in a bad relationship is the exact opposite of being selfish.

Here, I am talking about myself. All of my friends say I should leave my husband. My boss even says I should leave my husband because she sees how much stress I'm under but there's more to my relationship than just my husband and I.

You see....
my best friend also lives in our house. I homeschool my stepson and my 2 children.

Leaving would mean uprooting my children (taking them away from 2 men whom have raised them), putting them in public school (which I'm not willing to do), my stepson would go back to living with his mom who lives in the worst apartment complex in a 40 mile radius and probably would never see his father again. I would also have to go back to work full time (mind you I work 3 part time jobs now so working isn't the problem) which would mean someone else would be raising my children and I'd hardly ever see them. And there's so much more to the entire relationship than a selfish act of me packing up and leaving.

If I were to cheat on my husband it wouldn't be without complete thought about the above and much much more. And granted, it's not the best idea in the world but I'm a worthy person too... I cannot go around being here just for everyone else in the world without ever feeling the least bit happy again.

And now let the slamming begin...

I

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by kblackthorne
Yet in Nora's eyes, what I had done was wrong, and what she had done was right.)

"We are all exceptional cases. We all want to appeal against something. Each of us insists on being innocent at all cost, even if he has to accuse the whole human race and heaven itself."- Camus

[Danustouch]

Well..at the risk of sounding unsympathetic, life is a series of choices. Many of which involve self sacrifice. If it is more important to you that your child not be uprooted, and your stepson not return to living with his mother in an unsuitable environment, then you *May* have to sacrifice your happiness for a while. Situations can change. You never know what will happen four or five years down the road. And though it may seem a long time to wait for true love...to me, if you gained temporary satisfaction from a fling or affair, it wouldn't be the long lasting satisfaction of having lived ethically. On the other hand, if you waited until things sorted themselves out a bit more, and you came to a place where you could leave your husband, and know that your child, and stepchild would be ok..to me, the new relationship you had would be all the more worth it.

[Medusa @ Dawn]

And though it may seem a long time to wait for true love...


There is no such thing as true love in my life...
and yes life is full of choices which is exactly my point. What one sees as "selfish" may not be selfish at all (at least in someone else's eyes).

I've had true love with my husband.... life changes. Every decision made changes your life either for the better or for the worst. One makes those decisions on an individual basis.

When someone cheats they know what's going on. They know what that decision can do and are willing to take that consequence. To be angry with someone who doesn't know you isn't worth being angry at because, how do they have the knowledge to make that decision? They don't know you and therefore couldn't care less about you. All they see is the other person and are attracted to THAT person.

[Danustouch]

Uh-huh. And that attitude is the Selfish attitude. I don't know you...so it's okay for me to hurt you. Why doesn't that attitude fly in a court of law, when a person mugs another person? Because it doesn't hold water. Just because a person doesn't know you, doesn't mean they have the right to hurt you.

[Flar's Freyja]

Wow, Danu ~ you've made so many good points but wrote so much if I quoted it it would take up two pages in the thread!
[list=a]
Flirting is not harmless if it bothers your partner - Very true
If the relationship isn't working, why not break it off? I agree completely. In fact, I THOUGHT I had that arrangement with my ex-husband, that if he felt he had to cheat we would end it first. Didn't happen.
At what point is the decision made to fall in love? Sometimes it just happens. They may not deliberately be spending lots of time together. It might happen at work, through family or community events. They may not be intentionally pursuing a relationship. Feelings and emotions tend to rear their heads without provocation at times. And yes, people should think about backing off. But you may be looking at the rest of your life. Is it fair to your partner to live with regrets for the life of the relationship? I don't think that I would want ghosts haunting my marriage. I once dated someone who'd had an excellent marriage and had lost his wife through death. I always felt as though there were a third person with us, and as much as I envied, respected and admired what he had with her, it got in the way and I ended up breaking it off.

Is it fair to yourself? Could you live with knowing that you'd met your soulmate at the wrong time? Would your regrets have a negative influence on your relationship and cause it to dissolve at a later time anyway?
[/list=a]

[Medusa @ Dawn]

I understand... but here you're saying that it's the selfish attitude of someone who may not even know that other spouse exists.

They may and then it could be conceived as selfish on that person's part but then that person could just be like everyone in my life who's telling me to leave my husband.

It's not always so cut and dried.

It sucks when it's you who discovers the cheating. For many people... life just sucks no matter what. We all have our own lessons to learn in life.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth Danustouch:
There are some people who just honestly fall in love? Well..at what point is THAT decision made? Usually, for two individuals to fall in love, they must be spending a large amount of time talking to eachother, flirting with eachother, being close to eachother. Shouldn't the immediate ethical response in such a situation be..."ya know..I think we're getting a little close here, and before I 'fall' I'd better back off, he's a taken man!".
This was quite an issue, actually, both for Wanderer and myself. I won't speak for her, but I had two specific things I had to make sure: first, that I was getting the divorce for my own sake. I was long overdue to get out of the marriage anyway, but I didn't want to leave for the wrong reasons. And second, that after six months of separation I was ready to involve myself romantically again.

(Added 11:40 CDT) On the other hand, I'm not so sure that one can just "decide" to fall in love. You don't always get to choose how you feel, though of course you always have the choice of what to do with the feelings in your heart.


But...my first question is.."Did you ASK?". If the person asked, and the guy lied and said he wasn't involved with anyone, then obviosly, the blame falls more on the guy involved. But..if the woman just never bothers to Ask...well..that's just the epitomy of stupidity, imo.
Notsomuch stupid, as just too trusting. **Soft smile** It happens. . . unfortunately, too many women get burned.

[WandererInGray]

Generalizations are easy things...but they rarely work. Because every situation is different, every person is different, every time is
different.


"True love is like lightning...and you can no more make it strike then you can avoid it if it decides to hit you."
~Young Indiana Jones

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by WandererInGray
Generalizations are easy things...but they rarely work. Because every situation is different, every person is different, every time is different.

:thumbsup:

[Myst]

Originally posted by WandererInGray
Generalizations are easy things...but they rarely work. Because every situation is different, every person is different, every time is different.

I agree wholeheartedly, having been on both sides of this "fence". It's impossible to know the complexities of circumstances, situations, implications, and people involved, legally, personally, physically, mentally, and spiritually.

[StarryDancer]

Wouldn't it be great if there was one answer for the issue of flirting and cheating when you shouldn't have?;)

I believe in keeping my promises, which is why I'm still married. It's far from a "soulmate" situation, but he is a good man. It would hurt him terribly if I were to leave him just because he does not fulfill my life. That's my job, not his.

But I have watched some wild antics in others that just leave me shaking my head. Personally, I think that some people are just born with a hunger that can't be fed, and they go through life jumping from one person or thing to another, seeking fulfillment. And often, for the obvious reasons, sex is seen a potentially fulfilling.

Others see sex as a relationship game, which they play to win. Having won, they go on to the next...

And I have seen one young woman carry on with "revenge sex", having sex with someone else's boyfriend because she's angry with the woman, or with her own boyfriend. A dangerous game, that.

[Earthcup]

Originally posted by Danustouch
There are some people who just honestly fall in love? Well..at what point is THAT decision made? Usually, for two individuals to fall in love, they must be spending a large amount of time talking to eachother, flirting with eachother, being close to eachother. Shouldn't the immediate ethical response in such a situation be..."ya know..I think we're getting a little close here, and before I 'fall' I'd better back off, he's a taken man!".

I actually know a case where this has happened.

My sister is going through a divorce and has completely fallen for a guy at work. They are totally and completely in love. They've never kissed, never met outside of work, nada. They both made a decision to wait until her divorce was final before they tried to pursue a relationship. It's been frustrating but they felt they owed it to their children and to each other.

[Topazz]

My AlmostEx-husband and our friend/business partner were cheating on me for several years. I asked them to stop, they agreed to stop, but they never really stopped. I was angry and bitter and kicked him out of the house, but I didn't ask for a divorce. I thought it was good revenge to drag my feet and keep them from marrying each other.

Eventually I realized that it's even better revenge for them to have each other. He deserves the jealous-manilupative-slut and she deserves the selfish-lying-ba$tard.

He gave me the house and will continue to make the mortgage payment until it's paid off or I sell it. But I feel like she owes me something too. Of course I'm going to sell the house, who needs the reminder? And anything I got from her would also be a galling reminder. My freedom is the best thing I could ask for.


Have I ever flirted? Yes. Was it a 'power trip'? Yes. Would I do it again? Not unless I was interested in having a relationship with the person I was flirting with, and we were both free to pursue that relationship.

Not knowing whether the person you are flirting/cheating with is married is just dumb. Not caring is stupid and selfish and shameful.

In my opinion,
Subject to change,
Void where prohibited.
Topazz (survivor of incest and infidelity) :thumbsup:

[Medusa @ Dawn]

Topazz: You were hurt not only by your husband but also a friend of yours. I understand your hurt... my hugs go out to you. And I think you know that I'm not the type to just go out and do something (ok, well maybe that's not what I'm trying to say... but at least not something like this) for the hell of it. Noy even saying I definately would but I have thought about it a lot!!!!

[Myst]

As far as flirting, I think that's also up to the situation and people involved. I can flirt pretty heavily with people without getting trouble, same goes for my fiance. But then I know how far I can go, who I can flirt with, and so does he. And we both know we can say "hey that makes me kind of uncomfortable.." and have done so before, so it's not a problem.

[WandererInGray]

*nods in agreement with Myst*

Again it goes back to the individual....and for me, flirting is just flirting. It's not harmful until someone takes action.

[Phoenix Blue]

Quoth StarryDancer:
Wouldn't it be great if there was one answer for the issue of flirting and cheating when you shouldn't have?;)
There is. ;) Learn from it.


I believe in keeping my promises, which is why I'm still married. It's far from a "soulmate" situation, but he is a good man. It would hurt him terribly if I were to leave him just because he does not fulfill my life. That's my job, not his.
True enough. As long as your partner is your friend and lover, and as long as s/he is trustworthy and open with you. . . the relationship doesn't have to be storybook romantic, to be practically romantic. :)

On the other hand, when the only reason you're married is because you can't stand the thought of breaking a promise, it's time to realize the marriage is dead--and holding onto a dead thing is just icky. There's no dishonor in recognizing that fact and acting accordingly.


But I have watched some wild antics in others that just leave me shaking my head. Personally, I think that some people are just born with a hunger that can't be fed, and they go through life jumping from one person or thing to another, seeking fulfillment. And often, for the obvious reasons, sex is seen a potentially fulfilling.
I think you're right, to some extent. :) I actually prefer foreplay to the actual sex itself. . . it involves a physical, emotional, and spiritual sensuality that the act itself can't touch; and I love learning new things, and experiencing the wonderful feelings that come with exploring and being explored. Mind you, at some point all the energy that's built up through the exploration hungers to find an outlet. . .

That said, a lot of folks who do sleep around do so because they are looking for some external source of passion. **Shakes head** Passion has to come from the inside; if there's no passion in your heart, you'll never know passion in your life.


Others see sex as a relationship game, which they play to win. Having won, they go on to the next...
A meaningless, empty existence lay in wait for the people who play this game.


And I have seen one young woman carry on with "revenge sex", having sex with someone else's boyfriend because she's angry with the woman, or with her own boyfriend. A dangerous game, that.
Truly. She doesn't know where that thing's been!

[LadyWinter]

Okay alot of good points are on this thread and I just wanted to acknowledge that.

I dont flirt. Not even mildly. I am a very jealous person and my husband knows that. Because I am such a jealous person I dont give my husband any cause to think well she flirted with him so I can flirt......

Women for some reason probably I will never understand, seem to compete constantly with each other for everything. I am not saying ALL women but ALOT of women....and I think the attraction to married or taken men is just that....well I am better than her because I can take him....when they should be thinking...well if I can take him he isnt much of a prize.....

Men cheat, women cheat....but the reasons are very different. Women, I sometimes wish, should realize we are all SISTERS and I wouldnt take my sisters husband or boyfriend if my life depended on it. Maybe if we thought of each other more like that and less like an enemy things would be better. There will always be selfish people who think only of themselves and quite frankly I cant imagine a worse hell than being married to one of them for the rest of my life.

When cheated on in the past I try to remember that an honorable love awaits me and this wasnt it. Honor is something else that keeps me faithful, that and the fact I said for better or worse and we are gonna work on this until its better or until he feels worse LOL.

Slan Astar (Safe Journey) and Peace filledRecovery to those who have divorced,
LadyWinter

[WandererInGray]

Women, I sometimes wish, should realize we are all SISTERS and I wouldnt take my sisters husband or boyfriend if my life depended on it.

There's my hang up.....(now bear in mind it's not a practice of mine to randomly go after married men for the sake of screwing over other women)

There are women I am blood related to...we are bonded by "sisterhood."

There are women I am bonded to in "sisterhood" for other reasons.

There are women who aren't on my radar screen.

And there are women, who, for whatever reason....I would not swear "sisterhood" with....not ever....not even upon pain of death. (and my fiancée's ex-wife definately makes the top of that list)

I can be decent to people without having to go into that whole "we're all brothers and sisters" deal. But in all honesty...if we ALL followed that policy...how could we possibly date another man again? Because then every single guy who's been married or been out on a date has been with one of our "sisters". *shrugs* That's just my two cents.

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods** And it makes sense.

Women have to compete with one-another to find the most viable mates; that's biological. Besides, fights within a family tend to be more verbally violent than inter-family disputes. . . the parties are more familiar with one-another, so words are sharper.

Also, isn't it a bit sexist? If all women are "sisters," what are men?

No, this idea of all women being "sisters" doesn't float for me, either. . . because there's no way in Hell I'd want to be considered a "brother" to most politicians, which I'd otherwise have to be. 'Course, I'm a guy, maybe my mileage varies. :cool:

[Old Witch]

I agree with Wanderer.........Certain women call me sister, I'd hafta slug 'em...................

[Earthcup]

"I've got a sister and it's not you" the teacher from Northern Exposure's reply to the "sisters" thing :D

Topazz-Actually in Georgia you can sue the person who was sleeping with your spouse and broke up your marriage. That's one reason my sister has kept her distance, she doesn't want her ex to take revenge on the guy she's fallen for.

I'm not into flirting. I goof off and enjoy off-color jokes and some people see that as flirting. I had one guy certain I had a thing for him because we joked about music and movies. Nothing could have been further from the truth.

To me flirting is hinting at a relationship between two people, goofing off is a group of friends making off-color jokes.

I've been tempted to do the revenge thing. There are a couple of women I know who I'd love to steal their b/f's or husbands just to hurt them. I've daydreamed about that kind of thing but I would never try to do anything like that. I can understand people having those feelings but acting on them is inexcusable IMO.

[LadyWinter]

Okay to clarify.....By we are all sisters I meant that as....Intentionally taking another womans man for no reason besides revenge or your bored or whatever. Why inflict that hurt on someone else? And dating someone who has been with a "sister" is quite different from stealing her mate or current significant other, which I believe is what I said.

Sexist? See what you want to see....I speak of women because I am not a man....maybe if I was a man I would care about men being brothers...but I dont. I am speaking from female experince.....I dont recall ever being a man.

Slan Astar,
LadyWinter

[Phoenix Blue]

Ladywinter, **nods** But that sort of thing is common courtesy. :) A woman doesn't have to be your sister for you to treat her with courtesy and respect.


Quoth Earthcup:
Topazz-Actually in Georgia you can sue the person who was sleeping with your spouse and broke up your marriage. That's one reason my sister has kept her distance, she doesn't want her ex to take revenge on the guy she's fallen for.
My ex actually threatened me and Wanderer with this--it's called "alienation of affection." Given that I'd been separated since October '00 anyway, of course it wouldn't have flown in court. It's difficult to prove, and therefore not often used.


To me flirting is hinting at a relationship between two people, goofing off is a group of friends making off-color jokes.
And see, I don't think flirting has to be that serious. If I smile at an attractive young lady, that might be flirting. . . but does it imply anything else? Not really, because my interest is in letting her know I think she's pretty--nothing further than that.


I've been tempted to do the revenge thing. There are a couple of women I know who I'd love to steal their b/f's or husbands just to hurt them. I've daydreamed about that kind of thing but I would never try to do anything like that. I can understand people having those feelings but acting on them is inexcusable IMO.
**Nods** Inexcusable is right. Toying with a man's heart just to get back at another woman is both inexcusable and despicable.

[LadyWinter]

Okay Okay I give up! :nyah: :rotfl:

Slan Astar
LadyWinter