Contemplating magic

[Sage Rainsong]

I was read an article called the Impact of Scientism on Competeing faiths by Isaac Bonewits: http://www.neopagan.net/Scientism.html

In this article he said the following quote that really got me thinking he was talking about many Modern Pagans' attitude towards magic: "I’ve often thought that the overwhelming reason why most modern magic(k) falls so short of its potential is that most modern magicians, whether monotheists or Neopagans, really don’t believe in magic. So they have to keep inventing new definitions for it. After all, magic as psychotherapy can be made to sound scientific, magic as art or poetry is immune from scientific criticism, and magic as a method of spiritual growth is “above” science. But magic as magic, as a way of causing measurable and observable changes in the physical universe, collides head-on with Scientistic dogmas about the nature of reality."

How true do you think this is? Do you think that many modern magicians are trying to rationalize magic too much? If so, why? Does believing in magic as solely a psychological tool or an artform somehow limit its stregnth? why or why not?

Disclaimer: This thread is for discussion only, it is not meant to insult anyones view on the nature of magic.

[Lolair]

How true do you think this is? Do you think that many modern magicians are trying to rationalize magic too much? If so, why? Does believing in magic as solely a psychological tool or an artform somehow limit its stregnth? why or why not?I do think that magic is over-rationalized. I do not like thinking of it as purely psychological as that takes away from the magic, the religious aspects, the wonder. If one thinks that everything comes from the mind then why even practice magic? Why not just wish or pray? Why even bother to have a ritual or cast a circle? You wouldn't need to if it was all psychological - you could just think it and it would happen - which I think many of us would have a hard time believing.

Some spells and rituals work, some don't. There are no explainations why. I think the only science that should be brought into magic is theory and practice - i.e perform a ritual or spell and see if it works, if it doesn't have any effect try another one or change aspects of the original...

In my opinion, if one overthinks magic too much either scientifically (physics) or psychologically I think that magic does lose its strength as the more you think about these things, the less "real" or plausable magic will seem. Instead believe, have faith, avoid doubt, think outside the box.... Your magic is as strong or as weak as your faith.

“Any fool could be a witch with a runic knife, but it took skill to be one with an apple corer." ~ Terry Pratchett

[Windsmith]

Do you think that many modern magicians are trying to rationalize magic too much?Unquestionably. Early in my magical journey, I studied with a group whose teachers went on and on about how science supported magic. I wondered: if they really believed in magic, why would they care what science said? And if they needed so badly to prove that science backed up their claims, they didn't really believe in magic and should've been scientists instead! I've grown a lot since then, but I think about that a lot. My Christian friends believe with their whole being that bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ inside of them, but I've never heard them cite studies on "the science of Transubstantiation." Only among magic-workers have I found that impulse.


If so, why?Modern Paganism struggles to gain respect in the larger world. President Bush has said he doesn't consider Wicca a real religion. Someone in a thread about the "broom closet" says they told their mom, and their mom asked if they weren't "a little old for that stuff." A lot of people think our practices and beliefs are silly. And as much as we'd like to shrug it off and not care what other people think of us, we want to prove our legitimacy. We don't have thousands of years of history to do that, so some of us cling to the idea that science will make us credible.


Does believing in magic as solely a psychological tool or an artform somehow limit its stregnth? why or why not?I recently metamorphosed from someone who wanted to believe in magic to someone who views it as psychological. This change has strengthened my magic. Before, I put so much effort into trying to believe that something supernatural would happen that I couldn't concentrate fully on my spell. I couldn't put in the elements that made the most sense to me, because I'd read that the correspondences were "wrong." My focus was less on the desired outcome than on the process I wanted so badly to bring forth that outcome.

But now that I've acknowledged that I only believe in magic on the psychological level, I've gotten so much more excited about it. I create spells however I want, in whatever way speaks to my own deep self. And, because I no longer believe that I can sit back and let deities or spirits or some unnamable energy do the work of the spell for me, I've become more involved in the process of bringing about manifestation. I am the spell. I'm the only one there is to do my work.


[FONT=Georgia]If one thinks that everything comes from the mind then why even practice magic? Why not just wish or pray? Why even bother to have a ritual or cast a circle?Because to someone who believes that everything comes from the mind, magic can be - as Rosana gorgeously phrased it a while back in the Pantheism sub-form - "psychology for romantics." Ritual and ceremony - including spell-casting - satisfies deep emotional, social, and psychological needs for humans, and allows us to do so in a very beautiful way. Just thinking it doesn't work because I have a lot of other things I need to think about; holding on to intent is sometimes difficult. But if I cast a spell, I have something physical as a trigger. Every time I smell that sachet I sewed, or taste that honey I charged, my subconscious remembers this intent I had, and this work I have to do, and it reinforces my will to make it happen.

[RainInanna]

"I’ve often thought that the overwhelming reason why most modern magic(k) falls so short of its potential is that most modern magicians, whether monotheists or Neopagans, really don’t believe in magic. So they have to keep inventing new definitions for it."

I have to say, I don't understand the logic at all. If I didn't believe in magic I wouldn't bother "finding new definitions" for it. The very act of trying to learn and understand how it works implies that I realize it does work and therefore that I do believe in it. Certainly we can't be saying that belief in magic requires turning our brain off?


"But magic as magic, as a way of causing measurable and observable changes in the physical universe, collides head-on with Scientistic dogmas about the nature of reality."

Not when you consider quantum physics, which is what many are doing right now. There is no need anymore to insist science and magic are mutually exclusive. These days many people are combining the two to create meaningful magic. Working magic by understanding it through a scientific lens or a psychological one is completely possible and meaningful for many. So I don't understand the need to cling onto outmoded ideas about how they cannot complement and enrich eachother.

Insisting science and spirituality can't play nicely is making the same mistake made when they split so long ago. Prior to that they were understood to be complementary and compatible and we weren't restricted to believing science had all the laws and logic and spirit was just superstitious nonsense. Let's not make the same mistake from the spiritual side.

[Xentor]

Let's not forget that many of the early scientists were driven by religious and magical convictions. They wanted to explain the world as they saw it. The whole science of chemistry seems the result of alchemists trying to change lead into gold. The science of medicine has its roots in herbal and elemental magic. The science of psychology and psychotherapy have their roots in dream interpretation, divination, and cold reading.

Science is a method that can be applied... but doesn't necessarily have to be applied. However it has one virtue that unscientific methods lack: it generates repeatable results. That makes it highly popular in a society that looks for achieving results quickly and cheaply. It makes it trustworthy. Not just to oneself (most magicians trust their own abilities), but more importantly, to others.

That's the one thing magic can't claim: objectivity. Mysterious by definition, it defies explanation and defies repeatability.

Thus I can understand why some people try to seek a scientific basis for their magic: they just may want it to have the same level of objective trustworthiness.

[David19]

I think I have seen it on many sites, books, forums, etc. People try and say 'science backs up their magic', and yet, if science really backed up their claims, why don't they let scientists investigate it?.

To me, I agree with Bonewits, magic is magic, a way of making things happen that you want to (whether it's getting money, sex, love, power, summoning something, whatever, etc).

Good topic, BTW :).

[Philosophia]

Do you think that many modern magicians are trying to rationalize magic too much? If so, why?

Yes and no. I think people, as a whole, try to rationalize or somehow justify why things work the way they do. Its natural human curiosity to find things out and we do so but looking through various systems. Its not predominantly a "modern" conception because, in the past, they try justifying themselves with religion.


Does believing in magic as solely a psychological tool or an artform somehow limit its stregnth? why or why not?


No because that is simply a way of explaining it. The only thing that can limit it is ourselves and that usually is because of our own fears.

[HadouKen24]

If you look back even to the 17th century, it's clear that science has always--always--rejected magic. Newton initially had difficulty selling his theory of gravity to the early scientific community of his day because its instantaneous action at a distance bore too much resemblance to occultism. Magic has never really undergone scientific testing; it has always just been rejected out of hand.

However, the physicalistic mode of thinking that scientific models bear have become ingrained in our culture and our psyches. It is hard to weed it out, and expose it as the subjective body of knowledge that it is. ( * is tempted to start yammering on and on about the Duhem-Quine thesis and Kuhn's critique of the scientific community * )

[Tabbykitty]

Hey Sage,

this is a very good discussion that you have started here and one that I think is long overdue.




In this article he said the following quote that really got me thinking he was talking about many Modern Pagans' attitude towards magic: "I’ve often thought that the overwhelming reason why most modern magic(k) falls so short of its potential is that most modern magicians, whether monotheists or Neopagans, really don’t believe in magic. So they have to keep inventing new definitions for it.

.....How true do you think this is? Do you think that many modern magicians are trying to rationalize magic too much? If so, why?

This is really very true. When I first started doing magic, I was told, by practitioners who have had many years of experience that magic is well..... some kind of subtle psychotherapy.... a change in my own perception of the issue I am trying to affect with my incantations...... sheesh

And it gets better........

apparently, quite a lot view the supernatural world and evil entities/spirits as "personal demons"..... or issues that somehow manifest in "a visual language and context that I can rationalise"..... which means I'm, what..... seeing things??????

You know what..... stupid ol me ALMOST believed them!

It took a couple of real, scary and quite unexplanable experiences with the supernatural to really jolt me into reconsidering what I have been told by "experienced practitioners".

Truth of the matter is, a lot of modern users of magic dont really believe in magic and its power to really change things.... no, not even a large percentage of the wiccans in my local community. I have seen people read tons of books and get embroiled in ever more complex discussions about magical philosophy and theory and it seems that the power of their own spells fall far short of spells cast by local traditional witchdoctors and shamans...... who have an unshakable belief in their own 100% supernatural magical powers.

you can walk on the street of my country today and ask people if they would feel greater respect and awe consulting a traditional witchdoctor or a neopagan witch......... I don't think anyone would choose the latter as their answer.

Why is this so? well.... imagine this....
you are casting a spell, calling in the elements, energies..... be they universal, divine..... whatever.... to make your intent manifest in this reality..... that means, to use energy, your will and the weaving of your spell to affect REAL PHYSICAL CHANGE......

And then imagine that you.... the caster.... don't really believe in magic as an actual supernatural force/system that can alter the state of the physical world..... with this doubt in your heart..... how is it then possible to call upon whatever energies, or deities or entities for help? I mean, IF magic isnt real? What makes you think the deities or entities or whatever you are calling out to is?

How can you then draw forth the power from ..... whatever things you call upon... if you dont really truly believe in them? You might as well be calling in air....... empty words....... and if there are any gods that hear your calling for divine strength... DO YOU THINK they would assist someone who doesnt really believe in them?

It is no wonder then that spells fail or lack power?


The point Im trying to make is this.... when there is a lack of belief in magic... its not just magic alone that is the issue. Magic springs from a belief in a supernatural world, and a lack of belief in magic is often accompanied by a lack of belief in the supernatural. IF there is doubt that the unseen world of spirits and unknown forces exist.... where then does the magician draw his power? Even so-called universal energy or the elements is based on the belief there are invisible energies... not defined by science ... that we can tap into.

And because magic seems to have lost its.... wonder...... its modern practitioners come up with ever more elaborate philosophies to redefine it.....explain away the "shortcomings" that pop up as a result of a lack of belief.........




Does believing in magic as solely a psychological tool or an artform somehow limit its stregnth? why or why not?

Indeed, it does. It limits it because our mind sets an automatic filter on what can and cannot be achieved via this thing called magic.

Take for instance the following example......
Lets say that you have a colleague that is out to make sure you get sacked. YOu know its only a matter of time before you do because somehow that colleague of yours is willing to do the nasty stuff to get at you.... and you, being a "nice person" wont do the same things.

So you do a spell to change the situation you are in.... so that you feel less threatened and stressed. Let's say you eventually get sacked..... psychologically you instantly feel less threatened and stressed..... the spell works cos your viewpoint of the whole situation is changed...... then you start to rationalise the whole thing and see how this new situation is somehow "a better fit" for you as a person.

If this is all magic is.... pure psychology.... a mental viewpoint... then the only thing it can achieve is changing your mind about a certain matter. It cannot make any changes in the physical world that you yourself are not willing to undertake (eg. backstab that guy in return)

Now, Let's say you really believe in magic and the supernatural.... you cast a spell to change the situation you are in..... because you don't put a mental filter on what can or cannot be accomplished the spell.... any number of things can happen..... from your nasty colleague being transferred out or sacked.... or even that he is suddenly struck by lightning and dies....

Regarding Magic as a kind of supernatural power... and NOT merely as a psychological tool lifts a lot of limitations... not least of all the limitations imposed upon us by modern scientific definitions and laws..... it is when you allow the impossible to happen ... that the impossible actually might take place.

[maverick9750]

I wondered: if they really believed in magic, why would they care what science said? And if they needed so badly to prove that science backed up their claims, they didn't really believe in magic and should've been scientists instead!

I'm both. the reason I study the science behind magick is the same reason a person must study mechanics before he builds a car. even if a person is only going to drive, it will still improve his driving if he understands how and why the car does what it does. studying physics and using it to perform magick is no different, and it is NOT limiting. instead, it shows that anything is possible if you can bring enough power AND control to bear in precisely the right place and time. knowing where to get the power from and exactly how to put it to use in terms of what is, instead of what we want to be, grants us magickal power limited only by our own knowledge and immagination.

edit to add: is there really any difference between a differential equation and a rune spell? why not combine them.

[David19]

Hey Sage,

this is a very good discussion that you have started here and one that I think is long overdue.




This is really very true. When I first started doing magic, I was told, by practitioners who have had many years of experience that magic is well..... some kind of subtle psychotherapy.... a change in my own perception of the issue I am trying to affect with my incantations...... sheesh

And it gets better........

apparently, quite a lot view the supernatural world and evil entities/spirits as "personal demons"..... or issues that somehow manifest in "a visual language and context that I can rationalise"..... which means I'm, what..... seeing things??????

You know what..... stupid ol me ALMOST believed them!

It took a couple of real, scary and quite unexplanable experiences with the supernatural to really jolt me into reconsidering what I have been told by "experienced practitioners".

Truth of the matter is, a lot of modern users of magic dont really believe in magic and its power to really change things.... no, not even a large percentage of the wiccans in my local community. I have seen people read tons of books and get embroiled in ever more complex discussions about magical philosophy and theory and it seems that the power of their own spells fall far short of spells cast by local traditional witchdoctors and shamans...... who have an unshakable belief in their own 100% supernatural magical powers.

you can walk on the street of my country today and ask people if they would feel greater respect and awe consulting a traditional witchdoctor or a neopagan witch......... I don't think anyone would choose the latter as their answer.

Why is this so? well.... imagine this....
you are casting a spell, calling in the elements, energies..... be they universal, divine..... whatever.... to make your intent manifest in this reality..... that means, to use energy, your will and the weaving of your spell to affect REAL PHYSICAL CHANGE......

And then imagine that you.... the caster.... don't really believe in magic as an actual supernatural force/system that can alter the state of the physical world..... with this doubt in your heart..... how is it then possible to call upon whatever energies, or deities or entities for help? I mean, IF magic isnt real? What makes you think the deities or entities or whatever you are calling out to is?

How can you then draw forth the power from ..... whatever things you call upon... if you dont really truly believe in them? You might as well be calling in air....... empty words....... and if there are any gods that hear your calling for divine strength... DO YOU THINK they would assist someone who doesnt really believe in them?

It is no wonder then that spells fail or lack power?


The point Im trying to make is this.... when there is a lack of belief in magic... its not just magic alone that is the issue. Magic springs from a belief in a supernatural world, and a lack of belief in magic is often accompanied by a lack of belief in the supernatural. IF there is doubt that the unseen world of spirits and unknown forces exist.... where then does the magician draw his power? Even so-called universal energy or the elements is based on the belief there are invisible energies... not defined by science ... that we can tap into.

And because magic seems to have lost its.... wonder...... its modern practitioners come up with ever more elaborate philosophies to redefine it.....explain away the "shortcomings" that pop up as a result of a lack of belief.........




Indeed, it does. It limits it because our mind sets an automatic filter on what can and cannot be achieved via this thing called magic.

Take for instance the following example......
Lets say that you have a colleague that is out to make sure you get sacked. YOu know its only a matter of time before you do because somehow that colleague of yours is willing to do the nasty stuff to get at you.... and you, being a "nice person" wont do the same things.

So you do a spell to change the situation you are in.... so that you feel less threatened and stressed. Let's say you eventually get sacked..... psychologically you instantly feel less threatened and stressed..... the spell works cos your viewpoint of the whole situation is changed...... then you start to rationalise the whole thing and see how this new situation is somehow "a better fit" for you as a person.

If this is all magic is.... pure psychology.... a mental viewpoint... then the only thing it can achieve is changing your mind about a certain matter. It cannot make any changes in the physical world that you yourself are not willing to undertake (eg. backstab that guy in return)

Now, Let's say you really believe in magic and the supernatural.... you cast a spell to change the situation you are in..... because you don't put a mental filter on what can or cannot be accomplished the spell.... any number of things can happen..... from your nasty colleague being transferred out or sacked.... or even that he is suddenly struck by lightning and dies....

Regarding Magic as a kind of supernatural power... and NOT merely as a psychological tool lifts a lot of limitations... not least of all the limitations imposed upon us by modern scientific definitions and laws..... it is when you allow the impossible to happen ... that the impossible actually might take place.

Just wanted to say, I agree with everything you say :).

[MagickalHack]

I was read an article called the Impact of Scientism on Competeing faiths by Isaac Bonewits: http://www.neopagan.net/Scientism.html

In this article he said the following quote that really got me thinking he was talking about many Modern Pagans' attitude towards magic: "I’ve often thought that the overwhelming reason why most modern magic(k) falls so short of its potential is that most modern magicians, whether monotheists or Neopagans, really don’t believe in magic. So they have to keep inventing new definitions for it. After all, magic as psychotherapy can be made to sound scientific, magic as art or poetry is immune from scientific criticism, and magic as a method of spiritual growth is “above” science. But magic as magic, as a way of causing measurable and observable changes in the physical universe, collides head-on with Scientistic dogmas about the nature of reality."

How true do you think this is? Do you think that many modern magicians are trying to rationalize magic too much? If so, why? Does believing in magic as solely a psychological tool or an artform somehow limit its stregnth? why or why not?

Disclaimer: This thread is for discussion only, it is not meant to insult anyones view on the nature of magic.

Well, not having read the whole thread, I don't know if this has already been mentioned; magick is only as strong as the will behind the "magician."[How I despise that word, but it's all that fits] That being said, anything that is over-rationalized becomes nothing but a point for rationalization.


Most likely it boils down to the divide between Rationalization[through science, explanation, etc.] and Faith.

[maverick9750]

Most likely it boils down to the divide between Rationalization[through science, explanation, etc.] and Faith.

I have to agree here, as much as I may not like to. my whole theory of how magick works is built on a house of cards. if science shows pantheism to be false, my whole theory is false. so far, all inquiries I have made into reletivity and quantum mechanics have supported it, including a thesis done by the head of the physics dept at the university of penn. but 1 inconvienient fact is all it takes. that is where faith comes in, trusting that you have been guided down the right path, but knowing that what you think is your path, may only be a step along the way.

[~Owl~]

I see where Isaac 's viewpoints are coming from, after all, in theold days, what science has now "discovered", we discovered centeries ago, and called it magic.

I was still raised to believe in the Will and the Word. The mind makes the magic. I DO believe that the use of tools, etc, acts as a channel for this magic to occur.

What we deem to be visualization, and "seeing" something happen, and incorporating tools, and accesories to aid us, science has now caught up and called it " positive thinking".

From the early 70's, when Jane Roberts came out with her "Seth Material", which to this day, some 30 years later, it still thrives.

It is the fundemental belief that you create your own reality.

IOW, you create a situation in your life to react to it, in order to learn from it. Every thoughtform creates a reality somewhere in your own universe.

As fascinating as it is, and as many years as it took me to wrap my mind around it, it truly is valuable material indeed, and it is EXTREMLY ADVANCED.

Many books, theories, and "new" spirit guides that "channeled" through so called mediums sprung from this material. "Channeling" itself, the word, came from this material.

The books, "Illusions" "Jonathan Livingston Seagull", which I personally embraced with a rather lukewarm attitude about, came from Sethian philosophy, as did the classic "Way of the Peaceful Warrior", by Dan Millman, which IMO, was phenomenol, also had many parrelels with the Seth Material.

It all deals with the mind as the ultimate magickal tool. We are said to use only 10% of our brainpower. That's astonishing, when you really sit and think about it.

I'm sure that we as Pagans, witches, Wiccans, etc, as magickal people, and spiritual people who bend reality with such means probably use some of that extra 90% lying around somewhere...but where???

Gah, I could go on and on...I better leave it at this, and go to the market to get something for dinner.

[Aidron]

Innately, I believe mankind is skeptic (albeit to varying degrees). One might say that the age we live in certainly does not help to us to take to acts of faith, but I doubt the age we live in has as much to do with it as we would like to think. I believe mankind has long been extreme in skepticism, causing us to question and investigate under scrutiny our world around us. After all, if it wasn't for this behavior, science would not exist.

But in truth, I doubt many people, much less Pagans, actually have enough faith to simply trust in things without proof. It is a very difficult leap to take, to simply believe and trust in something without any guarantee or evidence.

[omar]

I'm reading "Magical use of Thought Forms"by Dolores Ashcroft- Nowicki & JH Brennan. They say the reason magic does not work for most modern people is because out of every 100 people that study magic only one stays with it long enough to become a wizard. I just ordered there $99. Dvd & study book. Very impresed.

[Sesen]

I've long been of the opinion that magic is both a science and an art that seeks to study and work with the unseen aspects of the world. Natural aspects, mind you, I don't believe that it's anything supernatural. It's already been mentioned in here that many areas of modern science came from magical precursors. Alchemy, for instance, was a rich spiritual tradition that sought transmutation on three different levels of existence, two of which remain unseen to physical eyes. They expected physical, psychological, and spiritual results. People who only had gold on their minds ignored two thirds of the process and boom, chemistry was born. It's been mentioned also that modern physics is confirming many peoples belief in magic. Though I'm wary of this, its not too hard to swallow given that the man many people consider the father of physics was an Alchemist.

I think what differintiates a magician from a modern scientist is first the belief in these unseen aspects, and then the willingness to explore them using the mind and unseen aspects of ourselves as your instruments instead of exterior machines. This can only lead to subjective results, but results still, that can be repeated if you have acted like a proper scientist and recorded every move you made in your experiments. The purpose of magic, to me, is to gain a better understanding of the world through knowledge. That's what originally interested me in magic. No longer having to just believe but to actually know. Faith can be a powerful thing, but I only see it as being helpful in the beginning. There comes a certain point where you either know and no longer believe, or you have proven your beliefs false.

[maverick9750]

I've long been of the opinion that magic is both a science and an art that seeks to study and work with the unseen aspects of the world. Natural aspects, mind you, I don't believe that it's anything supernatural. It's already been mentioned in here that many areas of modern science came from magical precursors. Alchemy, for instance, was a rich spiritual tradition that sought transmutation on three different levels of existence, two of which remain unseen to physical eyes. They expected physical, psychological, and spiritual results. People who only had gold on their minds ignored two thirds of the process and boom, chemistry was born. It's been mentioned also that modern physics is confirming many peoples belief in magic. Though I'm wary of this, its not too hard to swallow given that the man many people consider the father of physics was an Alchemist.

I think what differintiates a magician from a modern scientist is first the belief in these unseen aspects, and then the willingness to explore them using the mind and unseen aspects of ourselves as your instruments instead of exterior machines. This can only lead to subjective results, but results still, that can be repeated if you have acted like a proper scientist and recorded every move you made in your experiments. The purpose of magic, to me, is to gain a better understanding of the world through knowledge. That's what originally interested me in magic. No longer having to just believe but to actually know. Faith can be a powerful thing, but I only see it as being helpful in the beginning. There comes a certain point where you either know and no longer believe, or you have proven your beliefs false.

this is exactly what I believe.

as to the subjective results, that can only take you so far before entropy kicks your ass. I'm trying to find a way to actually measure what every sense of my being says is magick, when we can do that, it really will be a science as well as an art. I think the answer has to do with things like brain scans and gauss meters, there have already been experiments showing that changes take place on those levels, they just aren't conclusive yet.

[Sage Rainsong]

bump

[Sesen]

as to the subjective results, that can only take you so far before entropy kicks your ass. I'm trying to find a way to actually measure what every sense of my being says is magick, when we can do that, it really will be a science as well as an art. I think the answer has to do with things like brain scans and gauss meters, there have already been experiments showing that changes take place on those levels, they just aren't conclusive yet.

When it comes to this line of thinking, using physical machines as your tools, I would say it really depends on what it is you are trying to observe. When it comes to magic, I think we are often speaking of things that may interact with the physical world but originate on a plane that science doesn't currently acknowledge and physical instruments can't detect. When it comes to something such as vital energy, which some believe to exist all around us as a healing energy that helps sustain human life, I don't think we can measure it with technology. It is a substance that is made up of what might be called astral and mental qualities, and doesn't have a definite physical aspect that a machine could detect. However we can observe and measure some of the physical effects of this substance by learning to work with it or examining someone who has been healed by it. To me, this is enough. If I can experience something first hand and see the results manifest, then I am confident it exists. To a modern scientist however, I don't think this would fly. A magician who studies the esoteric sciences has quite a different cosmology then a modern scientist who only deals with the physical world. When you are dealing with things that only exist on a spiritual level your tools of observation are going to be completely different then when you are dealing with things on the physical level. Namely you will be using your own spiritual senses.

[Sage Rainsong]

Bump

[maverick9750]

When it comes to this line of thinking, using physical machines as your tools, I would say it really depends on what it is you are trying to observe. When it comes to magic, I think we are often speaking of things that may interact with the physical world but originate on a plane that science doesn't currently acknowledge and physical instruments can't detect. When it comes to something such as vital energy, which some believe to exist all around us as a healing energy that helps sustain human life, I don't think we can measure it with technology. It is a substance that is made up of what might be called astral and mental qualities, and doesn't have a definite physical aspect that a machine could detect. However we can observe and measure some of the physical effects of this substance by learning to work with it or examining someone who has been healed by it. To me, this is enough. If I can experience something first hand and see the results manifest, then I am confident it exists. To a modern scientist however, I don't think this would fly. A magician who studies the esoteric sciences has quite a different cosmology then a modern scientist who only deals with the physical world. When you are dealing with things that only exist on a spiritual level your tools of observation are going to be completely different then when you are dealing with things on the physical level. Namely you will be using your own spiritual senses.

science has long been finding ways to measure unseen energies though, radio waves being a good example, just cause a way hasn't been discovered yet doesn't mean it is out of the realm of possibility

[Sage Rainsong]

I felt like bumping this again. I promise that this is the last time lol.

[Son of Deborah]

In this article he said the following quote that really got me thinking he was talking about many Modern Pagans' attitude towards magic: "I’ve often thought that the overwhelming reason why most modern magic(k) falls so short of its potential is that most modern magicians, whether monotheists or Neopagans, really don’t believe in magic. So they have to keep inventing new definitions for it. After all, magic as psychotherapy can be made to sound scientific, magic as art or poetry is immune from scientific criticism, and magic as a method of spiritual growth is “above” science. But magic as magic, as a way of causing measurable and observable changes in the physical universe, collides head-on with Scientistic dogmas about the nature of reality."

See, to me, it boils down to a simple fact: not everyone can work magic. The modern world has made amazing strides to realize and act on the idea that all people are worthy of respect and dignity (still a far way to go, obviously, but still...) The problem is that there is a parallel line of thinking that tries to convince us that we are all "equal" which is complete bunk. You would never assert that anyone could be as talented an athlete as LeBron James or as great a theoretical scientist as Stephen Hawking, so why would you assume that anyone can work significant magicks with the best of them?

The simple fact is that it takes literally lifetimes of experience before a soul can really work magics effectively. Sure, someone could maybe to a self-improvement ritual that would focus their own actions, but beyond the strictly personal, they can't do squadoosh (and really, is there a huge difference between a self-improvement spell and a self-help book, if someone is sincere about it?)

Of course, this sentiment is offensive to "uber-egalitarian" personalities who take the fact that we all come from one source and somehow extrapolate that we can all do the same things. Sorry, but 4'9" people will never dunk on a 10' rim, and very young souls with little experience will never be able to work significant magic.

This gets to my main point: so many people out there want to believe in magic. They tire of the mundane world and its responsibilities and drudgery, and look for something more. Of course, when they delve into the world of magic, with many of them finding Paganism as a path, most find that they never really feel the magic, especially when they read descriptions written by actual users. I could tell someone about my energy work or my astral travels, and use vivid details and give real techniques, but if that person doesn't have the ability, it ain't gonna happen for them. So, because they still want to believe, they make up elaborate psychological theories, or misinterpret Jung, or talk about quantum physics, or eliminate science all together; whatever they have to do to reconcile their lack of success with their desire to believe.

Most modern magic fails because (1) so many "magicians" can't actually raise energy, etc. and (2) people with true abilities may never find the path, because both secularism and mainstream religion denies "personal" magic. The tragedy is that some people who do have great magical potential can get caught into these traps of "unbelief" during a sincere search for answers.

Of course, this is just my opinion :-) But it's one that I have come to through lots of experience.