Is Pantheism Pagan?

[Sage Rainsong]

Hello Pantheists,

I am having yet another semantic war in my brain at the moment and I am wondering if someone could help me out. I understand the different ways in which the word Pagan is used. It has been used to mean country bumpkin, anything that isn't part of the big three (or five) religions, and even as a term for an atheist at one time. However, when using the term in the modern sense of the word do you think that strict pantheists(not panentheists) are Pagan? I guess what I am getting at is, do you consoder pantheism as part of the general neo-pagan community( meaning the community that includes Wiccans, Asatru Druidism ect) or as a seperate entity all on it's own? I hope that all made sense considering that I have just confused myself completely :lol: .

[Xentor]

I'm kind-of a pantheist, and yes, I do consider myself pagan, too. Do you see a reason for these terms to conflict?

[Tranquility]

I definitely think so. I'm not sure what the general cosensus is concerning if Animism is cosidered Pagan nowadays, but I lump Pantheism with Animism. There probably is a difference (That I'm not aware of..) between the two, but they're definitely Pagan faiths in my mind.

If we consider modern Paganism any faith/religion revolving around nature and the cycles, then Animism/Pantheism would make sense.

[Sage Rainsong]

Do you see a reason for these terms to conflict?

Well, I have met pantheists who do not consider themselves Pagan because they consider Paganism to have some sort of so called "supernatural" connotations to them.

[Athena-Nadine]

I am sure there are pantheistic people who are not pagan, just as there are monotheistic people who are.

[Windsmith]

Dang, Sage, you have just opened a huge, confusing can o'terminology.

Here is my best stab at answering your question (and always remember that if you ask 5 pantheists a question like this, you're liable to get 7 answers):

My understanding is that pantheism is not explicitly or inherently Pagan (not the way that, say, Wicca is), but that sometimes the 2 are linked for varying reasons.

There are, basically (very basically), 3 kinds of pantheists. Dualists believe that everything is composed of matter and spirit. Many of them would feel right at home in Paganism.

Spiritualists (is this the word? Is this a word at all?) believe that everything is composed of spirit, and that the material world is a projection of that spirit. This is common in certain Eastern philosophies, and, well, we have entire fora debating whether or not, say, Buddhism is Pagan.

Materialists (sometimes also known as "scientific" or "naturalistic" pantheists) believe that everything is composed of matter, and that everything we perceive as spirit or the supernatural is ultimately attributable to a physical cause. At this point I could digress into a debate about potentiality and quantum physics, but that makes my brain hurt, and it's not what you asked anyway! Scientific pantheism seems to be the least suited to Paganism, because most Pagans believe in magic, deities, the supernatural, etc. However, there are some who combine the 2, because so many Pagan traditions include a reverence for the Earth and observation/celebrating its natural cycles that fits perfectly with pantheistic beliefs. For people in this camp, magic is psychology, deity is metaphor, and today's supernatural is tomorrow's science, but we consider ourselves fully Pagan because these forms speak to us, and they work for us.

All of that was a reeeeeally long way of saying that pantheism is Pagan if the pantheist you're talking to says they are. Certainly not everyone does.

[Glory]

To me, paganism is... religious/spiritual practice.

Pantheism is a concept. Just like being monotheist or polytheist.

So no, pantheism isn't pagan, but pagans can be pantheist.

[peggyelizabeth]

Windsmith covered it pretty well, imo.

I guess the main thing is that although pantheism and pagan may not always go hand in hand, there is not reason why they can't or shouldn't.

[HadouKen24]

Spinoza was a pantheist, but not a pagan.

Plotinus was a pagan, but also a pantheist. (Technically a panentheist, but they're close enough for our purposes)

As Glory said, pantheism is simply an attitude toward deity. There are forms of pantheism which are pagan, and forms which are not.

[Eleisawolf]

I'm a Pagan Pantheist. I believe that everything spiritual is enclosed within the physical universe, but I also believe that we don't understand everything that the physical universe entails.

I have had experiences of deity and other occurrences that would, for our purposes, be considered "supernatural." However, I believe that these can be attributed to one of three things: a) something that is a material part of our universe that we just don't have an understanding of yet; b) an imbalance in my own physical existence (yes, I admit this potential, though all evidence currently seems to point ot the contrary, that a chemical or other imbalance in my mind or something created these experiences and that they never actually happened--however, the very fact that they are a part of my mind and experience has changed who I am, so in that way they are physically real and mean something), and 3) something non-material that, because we are imperfect, we don't have the means to understand. 4) could be added, creating any combination of the above.

So, I see my universe as the greatest reality to come to understand in its whole self. There's no need to project anything outside it to explain anything, as yet. I just admit that I don't know everything about the universe yet. So I revere my experience of deity as a part of that holistic experience. Therefore, I am a Pagan Pantheist.

Make sense?

Peace:boing:

[equinox2]

Ditto for what windsmith said (and thanks, Windsmith, for saving me some writing!).

For me, I revere our universe, and especially our earth. I celebrate the Sabbats of the wheel of the year, and perform rituals (with incense, candles, etc) – often in the stone circle I built in my yard. I use a lot of Pagan symbols and metaphors in that, and have interest in ancient spiritual practices. So with all that, I think it’s pretty safe to call me Pagan. We should recognize that even among supernatural type Pagans, there is a huge range of belief – it’s not like we are talking about Jehovah’s Witnesses or something. Under that wide umbrella I’d think there is room for Pagans like myself. After all, I attend and enjoy attending big Pagan rituals, I just see much of it as symbolic, where others may see it literally. Just like the range of beliefs, there is quite a range of how symbolic any ritual is seen. The other Pagans there also range from those who see it all as literal, through those who see much of it as symbolic, to Naturalistic Pagans or Pantheistic Pagans like me, who see most or all of it as symbolic.

Since there isn’t a hell waiting for heretics, Pagans are free to embrace a range of beliefs. If there was a hell for those with “incorrect” beliefs, then it would be morally obligatory to stamp out other beliefs.

So yep, some Pantheists are Pagan (like me), others are just Pantheist – such as those that don’t use Pagan metaphors/practices.

Blessed be-

[Birdy]

To me, paganism is... religious/spiritual practice.

Pantheism is a concept. Just like being monotheist or polytheist.

So no, pantheism isn't pagan, but pagans can be pantheist.

Pantheism is more than a concept. It is an experience. In fact, I would say that a lot of the practice of pantheism is the experience of it.

Pantheism is, among other things, about divine unity.

A pantheist can be a pagan and a pagan can be a pantheist but they are not necessarily related.

Me, I can't call myself a pagan anymore, no matter what I practice. Although there are still pantheist pagans I now see "pagan" as more of a blanket term for new, or old and lost, polytheistic religions as well as general occultists and polytheists. From what I observe I don't think the practice of modern paganism necessarily has anything to do with nature or being earth centered.

[ravenscape]

Pantheism is what I believe. Paganism is what I do. I haven't always been both, but I feel a lot more comfortable not trying to push one aspect of my spirituality away while embracing another.

It was a huge relief to find that there were others who had reached a similar wide spot in the road, so to speak.

[Sage Rainsong]

I use a lot of Pagan symbols and metaphors in that, and have interest in ancient spiritual practices. So with all that, I think it’s pretty safe to call me Pagan.

Hm I was just re reading this thread and I have to ask this question. Please do not be offended by it, I am just curious. Does that nessesarily make you a Pagan? I mean I could go to church and think of Jesus as merely a symbol or personification of love for my fellow man. Does that make me a Christian or am I am atheist that enjoys Christian symbolism? Again I mean no disrespect of any kind.

[Glory]

Hm I was just re reading this thread and I have to ask this question. Please do not be offended by it, I am just curious. Does that nessesarily make you a Pagan? I mean I could go to church and think of Jesus as merely a symbol or personification of love for my fellow man. Does that make me a Christian or am I am atheist that enjoys Christian symbolism? Again I mean no disrespect of any kind.

Good question.

I'd say there's a difference in merely reflecting on those symbols, and basing your life, world view and philosophies around them. I don't think belief in a god in a way that suggests they are more than a symbol is a requirement.

[cheddarsox]

this is a hard question to answer, since, it is hard to pin down what Paganism is. Is is a certain system of beleif...or practice?

"Pagan" is sort of a "garbage pail" term. It started as a group defined not by itself, but by those outside it. Then, the mixed bag sort of took up the term for itself...but there are so few common denominators.

As a pantheist, i get accused of being everything from atheistic to monotheistic, to worshipping "all the gods" since pan means all. Here is what I think....that people need to get willing to understand a term for what it is, not for how they can fit it into their comfortable mindset.

Pantheism is neither atheism or monotheism...then what is it? It's pantheism, it's its own thing. It's its own catagory, not an appendix to something else.

I don't identify as a pagan, not out of any desire not to be associated, but in an attempt to clear the muddied waters. When people ask my faith, I tell them pantheism, and explain what it means.

When they try to force me to fit it into their "god" concept, I gently, but firmly turn the discussion back to what pantheism is...all by itself. It's not about their god, gods, or lack of gods.

the more we use terms definitively and clearly, the less muddy the waters will be.

I still don't know what Pagan truly means, but it is useful when surfing the web or shopping for alternative spirituality materials.

I stand with the Pagan community because we support some of the same issues...freedom for all religions for instance. I am happy to be part of the pagan community, and hopefully, act in a manner that brings respect and understanding to this group that has been so generous with me.