Looking for references - Re: Willow

[KellyP]

In reading through a few posts in another area of MW I found an item that piqued my interest. However, searching for reliable information proved unfruitful and indeed led me to another item of interest. So, here I present to my colleagues two statements and ask if the readers of MW might be able to provide reliable sources for either.

1. Willow was used by Celts in burial ceremonies.

2. Druids considered the willow sacred because two scarlet eggs which held the Sun and Moon were hidden in the willow's bows.

Thank you for any assistance.

[odubhain]

In reading through a few posts in another area of MW I found an item that piqued my interest. However, searching for reliable information proved unfruitful and indeed led me to another item of interest. So, here I present to my colleagues two statements and ask if the readers of MW might be able to provide reliable sources for either.

1. Willow was used by Celts in burial ceremonies.

2. Druids considered the willow sacred because two scarlet eggs which held the Sun and Moon were hidden in the willow's bows.

Thank you for any assistance.Never heard either one of these items about willow.

Searles O'Dubhain

[skilly-nilly]

In reading through a few posts in another area of MW I found an item that piqued my interest. However, searching for reliable information proved unfruitful and indeed led me to another item of interest. So, here I present to my colleagues two statements and ask if the readers of MW might be able to provide reliable sources for either.

1. Willow was used by Celts in burial ceremonies.

2. Druids considered the willow sacred because two scarlet eggs which held the Sun and Moon were hidden in the willow's bows.

Thank you for any assistance.

My rule of thumb is to discount any site that uses the 'Celtic Astrology' that equates trees with 'months'--even 'months' that do not correspond to modern months are, imo, spurious. There is fairly good support of the assumption that there were 2 seasons--Winter and Summer---in the same way that the day is divided. There is also argument supporting dividing the year along the lines of the Fire Festivals, which gives you 4 divisions. As well, this means of division neatly separates the 2 seasons into 2 divisions--beginning season and ending season--which makes them more like the day's division. I like this, myself.

Sooooooooooo, when you google "Willow was used by Celts in burial ceremonies." and the top pops are about 'Celtic Astrology' then I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Purely speculatively however, it is true that the Irish (the Celts I know the most about) used willow for a lot of things----houses to baskets. Ireland is wet and not heavily treed and willow is a staple. So it's very likely that coffins were made out of basketwork rather than planks of wood. This combines Willow and Death, but only in a usage way---it would be like saying that holes in the ground were used by Celts in burial ceremonies.

Also, if you stick a willow withy in damp ground it will very often root and grow. If you did this over a grave it would form a marker but again it's an attribute of the willow's nature rather than a religious thing---willows will root anywhere you stick them.

When you google "two scarlet eggs which held the Sun and Moon" the top pop is the same very beautiful site that popped willow/death. That's another rule of thumb for me---when one is researching modern ogham information the beautiful-artwork places tend to have really poor quality text and the believable-text places tend to not be attractive. That site (http://www.novareinna.com/constellation/description.html) is textually terrible---they use Welsh names for the holidays and attribute them to "the Druids" "the Autumn Equinox, known to the Druids as Alban Elfred", they use Roman Catholic holiday names (I suppose when there weren't any Welsh ones) without any explanation "the Celtic feast of Candlemas", they refer to the "thirteen-month calendar of the Druids", grrrrrrrrrrrrrr I'm stopping now.

In the end, it's tempting to employ the rule that only referenced sites are acceptable, but that rules out almost everything.

[Meadhbh]

The only information I've found that links willow trees with burials mentions the tree calander which of course didn't come about until much latter. If your looking for a tree that is linked with death and the otherworld I think you would have better luck in going with the Yew.

[ap Dafydd]

My rule of thumb is to discount any site that uses the 'Celtic Astrology' that equates trees with 'months'

terrible---they use Welsh names for the holidays and attribute them to "the Druids" "the Autumn Equinox, known to the Druids as Alban Elfred", they use

Another useful way of weeding out the dross is to discount any site that gets the spelling wrong.

"Elfred" indeed!

Reminds me of a very bad book I read once which talked about an ancient Welsh book called Bardass...

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Eternal Night]

I read your thread on the willow and after much thought, looked through my previous magical herb lesson. I realise it was my lesson that you were refering to and had not realised until now that I had written that. What I ment to write was that Willows are associated with Death and funerals, because of the ancient Greeks and Sumerians.
and an old country lore advises to plant a willow on a grave and allow it to grow, to ease passage. This is an echo of a Celtic tradition, whereby the spirit of a corpse rises from the earth and into the sapling above.
I will be correcting this error on the lesson thread.
Hey what can I say? Us teachers get things wrong sometimes!

As for the second point that wasn't mine and I've never heard this before. I shall look it up, out of curiosity.

[Lolair]

According to Druidic mysteries, two scarlet snake eggs were hidden within the Willow. The Universe was hatched from these two eggs, one containing the Sun, the other the Earth, relating to both cosmic birth and the birth of mankind. Traditionally, in Spring rituals, these were replaced by hens eggs, colored scarlet for the Sun and eaten at Beltane. This act transferred later to the Christian celebration of Easter...

Saille has further connection to the Death Goddesses for the Celts. Morgan le Fay, Cailleach and the Morrighan are symbolized by Willow. These Goddesses represent the darker and misunderstood components of the psyche that require our greater understanding and recognition. The fearful aspects of the Death Goddesses challenge wisdom and strength, helping to overcome weaknesses brought about by fear. The transformational and magickal aspects of the darker aspect of the triplicity - Maiden, Mother, Crone - provide intuitive wisdom and insight into nature and its workings.

Funerary ßints, shaped as Willow leaves, have been found in graves from the Old Stone Age, demonstrating clearly that Willow has been a part of our lives for a very, very long time. This Tree has been associated with death, grief and cemeteries, the leaves themselves symbolizing unrequited love or the loss of a lover. The leaf has also been worn as a charm to protect against jealousy.

From an OBOD entry on the Willow Tree (http://druidry.org/obod/trees/willow.html).

[_Banbha_]

From an OBOD entry on the Willow Tree (http://druidry.org/obod/trees/willow.html).




Too bad there is not one source reeferenced to original material in such a lengthy article. I would guess Robert Graves and Wicca loom large.

[Lolair]

It bothered me as well and in general when articles stating facts do not cite sources. But the author had to get this information from somewhere, so it must be out there in books or lore. Hopefully someone out there knows where the original reference comes from...

[KellyP]

From an OBOD entry on the Willow Tree (http://druidry.org/obod/trees/willow.html).



Excellent! While it may not be sourced to anything authoritative, there is at least a reference from some place we can claim to be Druid in nature. Amazing how I searched in so many places and didn't hit upon the OBOD link.

Thanks Lolair!

[KellyP]

I will be correcting this error on the lesson thread.
Hey what can I say? Us teachers get things wrong sometimes!

While I appreciate your efforts to be correct in your class materials, please do not feel compelled by anything you find here in my thread. Your reference was the one that started my search but I quickly found it replicated in a great number of places and my goal in posting here was to search out better researched material on the topic. Not to draw attention to your original post.

And whether you get a few details wrong or not, you are doing a service to the community acting as a teacher in the CoT. For that you are certainly to be forgiven the occasional faux paus. Besides, as we know, many people find magick where others find only Monday.

[_Banbha_]

It bothered me as well and in general when articles stating facts do not cite sources. But the author had to get this information from somewhere, so it must be out there in books or lore. Hopefully someone out there knows where the original reference comes from...

But just because something is published that no guarantee of quality, scholarship or relevence historically. It might not even be actual folklore but a creation or fancy of an author passed off as such.

Don't get me wrong, I love folklore and have read this page before; but Graves made up the tree calender system out of cloth. It has taken up a life of it's own as something that was real and had significance with the actual 'Celtic' peoples. If this is not made clear, I wonder what else is worthy.


Excellent! While it may not be sourced to anything authoritative, there is at least a reference from some place we can claim to be Druid in nature. Amazing how I searched in so many places and didn't hit upon the OBOD link.

Thanks Lolair!

Does 'Druid in nature' mean psuedo-Celtic then?

Sorry, if I'm sounding persnickety but I'm honestly confused about what it means to be 'druidic' in this context and why that alone might lend creditbility. :whatgives

[skilly-nilly]

From an OBOD entry on the Willow Tree (http://druidry.org/obod/trees/willow.html).



Too bad there is not one source reeferenced to original material in such a lengthy article. I would guess Robert Graves and Wicca loom large.

Excellent! While it may not be sourced to anything authoritative, there is at least a reference from some place we can claim to be Druid in nature. Amazing how I searched in so many places and didn't hit upon the OBOD link.

Thanks Lolair!

I would go the other direction mtself----I would be inclined to think the less of the OBOD for the unreferenced lore. I went 'back' on the point and looked at some of the other trees as well (because Ogham is an interest of mine) and the different pages are by different people and have pretty much any fact/lore-bit/poetic flight of fancy extant all stirred into each page in what seems to me to be a very uncritical way.

Specifically, I have read on far more critically referenced sites the information that there is no Celtic creation myth. As pretty as the 2 scarlet eggs are, the assertion that the Sun and the Earth hatched out of them seems to be unsubstantiated, and I'm surprized that the OBOD is promulgating this.

[KellyP]

Oh, I get such a chuckle from this life ...

Yes, yes, yes. I understand that the OBOD material certainly does not appear connected to anything academic but at least my initial concern over how someone could have found the material and believed it to be Celtic or Druid-ic has been resolved.

Now, my guess is that OBOD may be following materials provided by writers of the Druid Revival of the 17th century. Some modern organizations do incorporate such fanciful writings as those by Iolo into their teachings believing that while they may not have a historical basis they do have a place in Druidry.

[_Banbha_]

Oh, I get such a chuckle from this life ...

Yes, yes, yes. I understand that the OBOD material certainly does not appear connected to anything academic but at least my initial concern over how someone could have found the material and believed it to be Celtic or Druid-ic has been resolved.

Now, my guess is that OBOD may be following materials provided by writers of the Druid Revival of the 17th century. Some modern organizations do incorporate such fanciful writings as those by Iolo into their teachings believing that while they may not have a historical basis they do have a place in Druidry.

I'm so glad you are chuckling and were kind enough to clarify, KellyP.

I thought you were seeking more an original reference than just a source where the story could be found.

I disagree with the whole 17th century 'Druid Revival' having a place or that this is resolved information; but it's because of my CR-ishness. ;)

I'm fine with people doing as they like but I have to admit the lack of clarification at least bothers me. It's not as serious a lapse as when some in Wicca claim it's been around in current form for thousands of years, but it's still a fudge. It's an ethical and moral point as much as for respecting ancestral ways. Maybe I'm extremist?

It might be interesting to start a thread here on what Celtic-style folk think of the whole tree calender. _inabox_

[ap Dafydd]

Asking for a source means that the reader can reach their own conclusions about where the writer is coming from.

If something is Druidic Revival stuff then fair enough for those who want to work with it.

If it's CR then once again, fair enough.

If it's unattributed, then the reader's being asked to take it on trust, which in the Internet context is a very dangerous thing to do. Anyone can make something up and put it on an authentic looking website and bingo, there's people quoting it right and left all over the interwebs...

Personally I regard Robert Graves's work as he himself regarded it, that is a work of fiction.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[skilly-nilly]

Oh, I get such a chuckle from this life ...

Yes, yes, yes. I understand that the OBOD material certainly does not appear connected to anything academic but at least my initial concern over how someone could have found the material and believed it to be Celtic or Druid-ic has been resolved.

Now, my guess is that OBOD may be following materials provided by writers of the Druid Revival of the 17th century. Some modern organizations do incorporate such fanciful writings as those by Iolo into their teachings believing that while they may not have a historical basis they do have a place in Druidry.

I'm good with either hand, but I like to know where I am.

I have both an archeological and a personal interest in the Ogham. I use Ogham for divination, and anyone who does uses some amount of personal gnosis, because Ogham were used by Druids and that's about all we know. (http://www.greenwisewoman.com) It's good to keep clear where we are and I found that the OBOD tree-site attributed lore to 'the Druids' that it would be impossible to know.

I find the 'Tree-Calandar/Celtic Tree Astrology' fairly repugnant, but I wouldn't mind it so much if the people who espouse its use acknowledged its fictive status.

[_Banbha_]

I think The Fabrication of 'Celtic' Astrology by Peter Berresford Ellis (http://cura.free.fr/xv/13ellis2.html) is an appropiate read here. :)