summerland and heaven

[blackluckof13]

Both sound virtually the same to me with the exception of belonging to different religions. So, what is the difference? If I die would I automatically go to Summerland regardless of what I have done on my time on earth? Do I go to Summerland even if I kill myself (I’m not saying I’m going to)?

[Citana]

Pretty much... I am Wicca, and I don't know much about the Christian Heaven, but like you, from what I gather, they are fairly similar. Although, there is no Guardian or gates to let or not let souls in. One difference I think too, is that with many pagans (although it may differ from tradition to tradition), you don't necessarily go straight to the Summerlands. Often, you may choose to stay on this plane to help or guide those who need you, or so forth. Of course, I have not studied the after life extensively (only Christianity seems so preoccupied with this), most of my practice has gone out toward the living world, minus those of my loved ones that have passed recently.

[blackluckof13]

sorry to hear about the loss of your loved ones. May they forever rest in peace.

[Lyrien]

Personally I view it as two very different descriptions of the same place. Kind of like when two people go out of town to this really cool destination. Both with have very different views when they return home and describe it to their friends. Except....no one has ever returned to describe it. LOL

[omar]

All souls go to Summerland to awaite reincarnation, regardless of how they die. Heaven is just a creation of the Christian mind. There is NO Heaven or Hell any place in the universe.

[Tranquility]

Omar, that's a nice "musing" on the afterlife. How are you so sure of yourself?

I would be careful of "all or nothing" attitudes..

I'm not saying I do or do not belief in the Judeo-Christian afterlife concept, I'm only saying that your statement doesn't leave much room to breath.


Blackluckof13, it's in my personal belief that we each find out what does or does not come after death. Subscribing to a belief is great, but don't feel like you HAVE to believe the Pagan view on death and dying only because you say you're Pagan and believe in the rest.
My "Proof" of the afterlife (My belief is reincarnation in some form) is found in the cycles of nature. The sun is born and rises every day, and dies and sets every day. The moon does so too. Our seasons come in cycles, women go in cycles, animals in the forest die, and detritovores decompose their body into re-usable nutrients. For me, the theme is cycles. I see death and life out of death around me, so I must assume at this point that I will follow the laws of nature. Find your bliss. Best of luck.

[Greybird]

All souls go to Summerland to awaite reincarnation, regardless of how they die. Heaven is just a creation of the Christian mind. There is NO Heaven or Hell any place in the universe.

I don't see any more or less evidence for one than the other... or doesn't religious tolerance apply to their myths as well as ours?

Anyway, the main difference is that the Summerland's doors swing both ways. Heaven just has an 'in' door. ;) One is resting place on a journey, the other the destination of a journey.

[Vigdisdotter]

All souls go to Summerland to awaite reincarnation, regardless of how they die. Heaven is just a creation of the Christian mind. There is NO Heaven or Hell any place in the universe.

You know....I'm endlessly amused when someone declares that the Christian afterlife doesn't exist. To do so is to become the same as that which you decry.

Myself, I think ALL afterlives and places of rest (or torment) exist. The universe is more then big enough to support them, after all. People will go to the place that suits them based on their own beliefs, not anyone else's. So really, it's a very silly argument to engage in.

[Meadhbh]

Myself, I think ALL afterlives and places of rest (or torment) exist. The universe is more then big enough to support them, after all. People will go to the place that suits them based on their own beliefs, not anyone else's. So really, it's a very silly argument to engage in.
[/QUOTE]

I agree totally. If you believe that unless you do certain things you'll end up in this horrible place forever and when you die you didn't meet the guide lines guess where you'll be. But if that did apply to you and you lived your life under a different of beliefs you'll go some where matching that belief.

[HadouKen24]

You know....I'm endlessly amused when someone declares that the Christian afterlife doesn't exist. To do so is to become the same as that which you decry.

Not necessarily.

The Christian idea of Heaven is dependent on the Heaven/Hell dichotomy. Without Hell, the Christian conception of Heaven is nonsensical; there will be nowhere for the unrighteous to go.

I find the Christian idea of Hell to be absurd. It is ludicrous that a supposedly just God would send not just a few, but the vast majority of God's created sons and daughters (if we are to trust Christian theology) to eternal torment--creatures which, if God is omnipotent and omniscient, could have been created so that such an eventuality is entirely unnecessary.

If the Christian idea of Hell is absurd, and thus is to be rejected, and the Christian idea of Heaven only makes sense in terms of the Heaven/Hell dichotomy, then by rejecting the idea of Hell, we must reject the idea of Heaven.

You can, of course, say that Christians might find themselves in the afterlife in a beatific place with their God, just as Buddhists might find themselves reincarnated in a Pure Land of one of the Boddhisatva. But you have removed the universality of the claim of Heaven. It is precisely that universality which makes the Christian conception of Heaven to be Christian. And so you have substituted the Christian conception of Heaven for a modified, non-Christian version.

[Vigdisdotter]

Not necessarily.

The Christian idea of Heaven is dependent on the Heaven/Hell dichotomy. Without Hell, the Christian conception of Heaven is nonsensical; there will be nowhere for the unrighteous to go.

Um....you do realize that you just proved my point, right?

Try to remember what I was responding to; namely the claim that anything other then the summerlands exists. Sound familiar?

That the Christian afterlife has two components rather then one doesn't in any way invalidate my point.

[HadouKen24]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

I just wanted to point out that one isn't necessarily "doing the same thing" as Christians merely by denying the existence of Heaven. In my last post, I tried to present one argument for rejecting the idea of Heaven on purely logical grounds, without simply appealing to one's own religious inclination. If you cannot have Heaven without Hell, and there are good reasons for rejecting Hell, then one must also reject Heaven. There is no need to appeal to any ideas of reincarnation or the Summerland or any other arbitrary religious dogma.

I suppose I should have clarified what I was doing first, rather than just jump right into the argument.

[David19]

Myself, I think ALL afterlives and places of rest (or torment) exist. The universe is more then big enough to support them, after all. People will go to the place that suits them based on their own beliefs, not anyone else's. So really, it's a very silly argument to engage in.


I agree totally. If you believe that unless you do certain things you'll end up in this horrible place forever and when you die you didn't meet the guide lines guess where you'll be. But if that did apply to you and you lived your life under a different of beliefs you'll go some where matching that belief.[/QUOTE]

You know....I'm endlessly amused when someone declares that the Christian afterlife doesn't exist. To do so is to become the same as that which you decry.

Myself, I think ALL afterlives and places of rest (or torment) exist. The universe is more then big enough to support them, after all. People will go to the place that suits them based on their own beliefs, not anyone else's. So really, it's a very silly argument to engage in.

I agree with both of you, I think the Christian afterlife exists, just as I think Hades exists, the Kemetic afterlife, etc.

To me, the multiverse is more than big enough to have many realms/planes.

[Philosophia]

Well, I don't believe in any of them.

[Tranquility]

So can anyone answer the actual question of the poster?

[Lyrien]

So can anyone answer the actual question of the poster?

I don't think any of us can until we visit both places.

[Vigdisdotter]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

I just wanted to point out that one isn't necessarily "doing the same thing" as Christians merely by denying the existence of Heaven.

You know, you'd have a point IF that is what happened. Go back and read what my comment was in reference too. It was a very strong statement of one thing existing while another didn't.

Again....sound familiar?

[blackluckof13]

Does Summerland have to be used as a temporary resting place for one's soul, or can the soul stay there and not reincarnate?

[Tranquility]

Obviously. But we're basing our beliefs (more like assumptions) of the afterlife on what we perceive or want to believe. Blackluck's question is (I assume) concerning the Pagan belief of summerland.

[blackluckof13]

All of our beliefs are basically assumptions (base on our own common sense and perception of the world and afterlife), until they are proven. We can only make assumptions, and discuss what it will be like, until we visit there.


In paganism there is many perceptions of Summerland, and no single one is the right one for all.

[HadouKen24]

You know, you'd have a point IF that is what happened. Go back and read what my comment was in reference too. It was a very strong statement of one thing existing while another didn't.

Again....sound familiar?

I'm not accusing you of failing to make the distinction. I'm just pointing it out for the benefit of those who might miss it.

[Enlightenment1]

I believe when I die I will be reincarnated, I don't know if I'll end up on this Plane again, I doubt it very much, I'm pretty sure it will be a higher Plane and I'll stay there until I am ready to move onto a place like the Summerlands, though it might not be that exact place it will be a place of true Enlightenment, and maybe, if I'm lucky and learn all of lifes lessons while I'm here on Earth now I will go straight to my place of Enlightenment and miss out the other Planes, but I'm pretty sure I won't learn all of lifes lesson this time round but I know I'm gonna give it a damn good shot :)

[Tranquility]

EDIT: I apologize, the "obviously" comment was not towards you BlackLuck. It was dealing with the people too busy arguing above.

[Vigdisdotter]

I'm just pointing it out for the benefit of those who might miss it.

What distinction? You quoted me and then went off on an unrelated tangent.

My words were a specific response to a specific comment. If you aren't going to address what I said and why, then I fail to understand why you quoted me in the first place and am at a lost for what your point actually is.

[blackluckof13]

Tranquility, I really didn't take offense to that comment. If you take offense to stuff that people say, it gives them power over you, and it can cut you really deep. I really don’t mind that people argue, just as long as doesn’t involves hurting someone else (physically or mentally). It’s part of being human to voice your opinion, passionately.

[SoulFire]

Both sound virtually the same to me with the exception of belonging to different religions. So, what is the difference? If I die would I automatically go to Summerland regardless of what I have done on my time on earth? Do I go to Summerland even if I kill myself (I’m not saying I’m going to)?

I am not Wiccan, but having studied it, I do have an opinion. First, let me say I am glad to see people discussing a more serious topic. My view is that "Summerland" (a spiritualist term, btw) and "Heaven" are not synonymous terms or places. My understanding is that Summerland is more like a temporary resting place between incarnations. Whereas, the Christian concept of Heaven is a place where the soul may go after death if they have been judged to be "good" enough; it is a permanent place of abode.

Personally, I believe our beliefs about the afterlife influence our experiences of the after-death environment. Doreen Valiente agreed with this view:

"But why should not each religion have its own paradise? The Moslems' idea of paradise bears little resemblance to the Christian one. The Spiritualists have their 'Summerland', and the Red Indians their 'Happy Hunting Ground'. It is not possible that these 'many mansions' may exist in other dimensions? One recalls the 'fair Elfland' of the old ballads, existing as an alternative to that road which leads to the Christian Heaven." (The Rebirth of Witchcraft)

So if one believes in Heaven and Hell, they may well experience one or the other, depending on their beliefs. A Wiccan may go to the Summerland, a non-Wiccan Witch may go to the Land of Faery, a Buddhist may experience Nirvana, and so on.

[FeatherGoblinglimmer]

:achillpil. I believe there cannot be a right, wrong or definitive answer to this question. It is entirely subjective and can be mused forever but if you want a straight answer..The question is to complicated.

[omar]

I am not Wiccan, but having studied it, I do have an opinion. First, let me say I am glad to see people discussing a more serious topic. My view is that "Summerland" (a spiritualist term, btw) and "Heaven" are not synonymous terms or places. My understanding is that Summerland is more like a temporary resting place between incarnations. Whereas, the Christian concept of Heaven is a place where the soul may go after death if they have been judged to be "good" enough; it is a permanent place of abode.

Personally, I believe our beliefs about the afterlife influence our experiences of the after-death environment. Doreen Valiente agreed with this view:

"But why should not each religion have its own paradise? The Moslems' idea of paradise bears little resemblance to the Christian one. The Spiritualists have their 'Summerland', and the Red Indians their 'Happy Hunting Ground'. It is not possible that these 'many mansions' may exist in other dimensions? One recalls the 'fair Elfland' of the old ballads, existing as an alternative to that road which leads to the Christian Heaven." (The Rebirth of Witchcraft)

So if one believes in Heaven and Hell, they may well experience one or the other, depending on their beliefs. A Wiccan may go to the Summerland, a non-Wiccan Witch may go to the Land of Faery, a Buddhist may experience Nirvana, and so on.

Right! I agree. But the Happy Hunting Ground idea was a Christianized Native American idea,not there own.

[David19]

I am not Wiccan, but having studied it, I do have an opinion. First, let me say I am glad to see people discussing a more serious topic. My view is that "Summerland" (a spiritualist term, btw) and "Heaven" are not synonymous terms or places. My understanding is that Summerland is more like a temporary resting place between incarnations. Whereas, the Christian concept of Heaven is a place where the soul may go after death if they have been judged to be "good" enough; it is a permanent place of abode.

Personally, I believe our beliefs about the afterlife influence our experiences of the after-death environment. Doreen Valiente agreed with this view:

"But why should not each religion have its own paradise? The Moslems' idea of paradise bears little resemblance to the Christian one. The Spiritualists have their 'Summerland', and the Red Indians their 'Happy Hunting Ground'. It is not possible that these 'many mansions' may exist in other dimensions? One recalls the 'fair Elfland' of the old ballads, existing as an alternative to that road which leads to the Christian Heaven." (The Rebirth of Witchcraft)

So if one believes in Heaven and Hell, they may well experience one or the other, depending on their beliefs. A Wiccan may go to the Summerland, a non-Wiccan Witch may go to the Land of Faery, a Buddhist may experience Nirvana, and so on.

That's really similar to my belief, and thanks for including that Valiente quote, she's definantly on my list to get.

[Rudas Starblaze]

geez, doesnt anyone want to go to hell anymore? whats wrong with you people!?:lol:

[SoulFire]

Right! I agree. But the Happy Hunting Ground idea was a Christianized Native American idea,not there own.

The same could be said of the "Summerland", which Wiccan borrowed from Spiritualism. That doesn't affect the basic premise, however: that you go wherever your beliefs take you. I do not know what Native Americans actually believe (to start, there are too many tribes), so I cannot speak for them.

[Enlightenment1]

I also believe whatever our definition of our place of rest, be it Heaven, Summerlands, Hell, On a Cloud, Dancing with the Fae, etc. etc. then that's where we will go. I think I read this in 'Astral Dynamics' by Robert Bruce (don't quote me though) if lots of people, or even just one person thinks about a place, sees that place in their mind or visualises that place for long enough then it will manifest as an actual place on the Astral Planes, as all thoughts on the Astral Planes manifest themselves into a real, solid actual places. So if I keep on thinking and visualising the Summerlands with all my family, friends, Faerie Folk around me then that's what I'll get, maybe? Though I'm not too sure about living the rest of my days with the Faerie Folk, might be more trouble than it's worth. I'll deffo be visualising lots of fit men:abanana: (hahaha, I won't be going anywhere thinking like that now, will I :) )