Solitary vs. group experience...

[darkchild]

I'm sure there are probably other threads on this topic, but I would like to ask others out there why you have chosen a coven/group experience or choose to be a solitary practitioner.

I have been searching for a path that feels right for some time now and that means research and reading books until they are towering over me in piles.

Lots of the books I have read suggest that you can't really start out on your own, because there will always be things you don't know or understand unless you are initiated.

I feel like I have lots of knowledge from reading about so many different things, but I see the point that some make about never really KNOWING, because I don't know what to do with all of the things that are now floating around in my brain.

I feel called to this, which is why I am searching, but what must happen in order to BE a __________ (fill in the blank). I am drawn to Shamanism, because I have always been a healer in some capacity, but the path is hidden to me. I know that I am very new to all of this and maybe time and practice are all that is required, but maybe some of you could enlighten me as to how you begin if you don't have a teacher. Or, maybe you feel that you must have a teacher.

Please, share your wisdom with me.

[Rainbow]

Whether or not a group initiation is necessary depends entirely on what particular tradition you wish to study. Everything I personally am interested in is out in the open and easy to get information on without initiation. I really don't feel I need to be a member of some secret tradition. Those secrets are theirs, I'll do what I feel is right for me.

There aren't enough people around who practice my flavor of what I practice for me to feel comfortable continually practicing in a group, anyway. I'll work in groups sometimes, but it's no initiation.

[darkchild]

Most of what I am learning is concerning "High Magick" and Shamanism. It just seems that there are so many supposed secrets or levels that you must attain to call yourself knowledgeable in these areas. That's why I am curious about what others think on this topic. If I do the work it takes to be called a Shaman, for instance, am I a Shaman, or must I have someone else tell me that I am? Very confusing.

[AmyDarling]

you ponder exactly the same thing, right down to the details, that I ponder on a daily basis. I've always been solitary and I am right on the cusp to becoming socialized. My first May Moon is this years and I am really nervous.

[darkchild]

you ponder exactly the same thing, right down to the details, that I ponder on a daily basis. I've always been solitary and I am right on the cusp to becoming socialized. My first May Moon is this years and I am really nervous.


It makes me feel better to know that someone else feels the same way that I do. I have always wondered if there is some major part of my path that is hidden from me because I am solitary. Must we be initiated to really know the truth? I guess the best way to figure that out is to participate in a group and find out. I can always go back to being solitary if I want to. My problem would be finding a group close to me that follows the same path.

[akewa]

I have been on both sides and shall related what I have found out. First off shamanism almost requires a near death experiance to start you on that path. It is alot of trance work and is a solitary path. It is almost impossible to find a teacher for this role as one is truely called to it. High magic or cerimonial magic can be done with a lodge or on ones own. There are books on the many paths that describe how to pratice it. It does require some sort of intitation. Which one can dedicate oneself to the work. BTW and most covens that have degrees follow this path.

Ok, with that said here are some suggestions. If you want to go the healer route. You have many options like, reiki, herblism, massage therapy, crystal work, and of the modern health pratcies. In the herbal and reiki there are many paths where you can foucus like eastern, western and native america. the key here is pick one and put focus into it. It will take years to master just like HM.

Do not worry about the so called secrects for most are published and the others are rules and laws for the indiviual in the group. HM has many levels and going to each one a mystery happens. This mystry is different for each person and one cause for what you think of as secrects. These secrects again seem to worry you a bit do not think of it as something that is held in secrect but more something that comes to you as you pratice and work your path. Again the whole thing comes down to picking one and working with it. Dableing here and there gets you alot of information but not the indepth you are looking for right now. In HM the levels are not as important as the work that you do on yourself.

BTW no one can tell you if you are or not something only you can from your own experiances. No one will experiance the same thing and in the case of the shaman not even with you at the same time. Everyone experiances thier intitations in their chosen paths different so 2 are every truley alike. Also one goes thru many and I do mean many inititations as they work thier chosen paths.

Having a teacher can be good or it can be bad. It all depends on the student and teacher. I have been solitary and with coven and groves and now solitary again. The net makes solitary alot easier since you can always talk to many people about something. In a way I think it might be better than in person groups for you do not have to answer to anyone and can walk away if you need to, which is not that easy with a live group. i hope this helps some if I can help anymore just PM me.

:cheers:

[darkchild]

I guess I should add that I have been a massage therapist for 11 years and have incorporated many other ways of healing into it along the way. I have always felt the need to aid people in their healing, whether it be physical, spiritual or mental. I don't have training to deal with psychological issuesyet, but I have studied nutrition, reiki, herbal medicine, accupressure, reflexology and many other ways to help a person heal. It seems to be my calling. I do tend to want to help only one person at a time because I focus all of my energy and intention on that person until they are better. It's very draining to try and spread that around.

[lestismitethee]

I am also interested in Shamanism. But I am "solitary" for a few reasons.

One, I cannot find someone to teach me, especially because I live in the "Bible Belt" of the U.S. I don't think there are many teachers of Shamanism in the States, anway; those that do teach it will most likely be in such areas as Seattle, San Antonio, etc.

Two, I have noticed that there tends to be a lot of drama in Circles/Covens/what have you. I have spoken to people in different groups and one way or another animosity devolopes between members that don't agree with each other. I cannot understand this because Pagans are usually open-minded and nurturing to each other... then again, a lot of the Pagans around here only do it for the "shock" value, not true spiritual reasons.

I think whether someone is solitary or involved in a group, it's good either way. Some experiences you have in a group you will not have in solitary, and the same thing goes the other way around. What matters is that you enjoy what you are practicing and believe in youself and your Path.

As an added note about teachers... I am trying to contact my spirit guides and animals. I see them as my ultimate Teachers, whether I find a human teacher here or not. I believe I can learn more from them than anyone else. I also think that reading books is important and that they can help you along the way. And of course, talking to other people about your experiences is a great thing. This is how I have been teaching myself so far.

Hope that helps :]

-- Gally

[Amelserru_halqu]

#1 I'm solitary because I trust very few people who are more powerful than me and can impress their will upon me. Doesn't mean I'm scared or won't fight back, I just prefer to avoid a fight and avoid having to watch my back all the time.

#2 I have no interest in working with most pagans and their gods and other magic users don't advertise where they're hiding (damn magic users looking like normal people makes it hard to find them, seriously we need like glowing eyes or something to differentiate them).

#3 Ever tried to get a group of atheist witches together?

[Kalika]

I've worked with covens in the past... but it isn't really my thing. I only work with a group when I'm needed for something, since it's rare that I require assistance for any type of work that I do. (Not to sound like a snob or anything... it just is what it is.)

I prefer solitary work mainly because I don't like to rely on anyone else, and for me rituals and spells are intensely personal.

That doesn't mean I can't or won't work with others in the future... I just prefer to do things myself, my way. :p

[darkchild]

Thanks everybody, for your answers and insight.

I am solitary mainly because of my personality, I am somewhat introverted. So, even if I could find a group or a teacher, I don't know if I would actually do it. I do tend to rely on myself for lots of things, but one of my big personality flaws is that I feel that I need to know EVERYTHING about subjects that I am interested in. So, when someone says that I can't know something unless I do X, Y or Z, I then have to do whatever it is to find out. The problem with that is, I am usually disapointed when I find out whatever it was because I either already knew it or could have figured it out for myself...have I confused you enough yet? LOL

I guess I will continue on my path and let my own intuition and my guides help me. It seems to be working. Now, if I could just be more patient...

[HadouKen24]

(damn magic users looking like normal people makes it hard to find them, seriously we need like glowing eyes or something to differentiate them).

Working on it. No luck so far.

[Amelserru_halqu]

Working on it. No luck so far.

Work harder dammit!

[darkchild]

Work harder dammit!

:yayah:

[akewa]

I am also interested in Shamanism. But I am "solitary" for a few reasons.


Two, I have noticed that there tends to be a lot of drama in Circles/Covens/what have you. I have spoken to people in different groups and one way or another animosity devolopes between members that don't agree with each other. I cannot understand this because Pagans are usually open-minded and nurturing to each other... then again, a lot of the Pagans around here only do it for the "shock" value, not true spiritual reasons.


Hope that helps :]

-- Gally

Gally this seems to be the case IN GA. I had a friend that use to live there back in 2000 for a few years. She told me the the GA pagans had some "interesting" ideas about running thier covens. I do not remember the area of GA she lived in at the time but some of the stories were shocking to say the least.

Darkchild i hope you got my Pm's to you.

:cheers:

[AmyDarling]

darkchild you and I are very much similar. Particularly in terms of healing and helping only one person at a time until that person is healed or can continue to heal on their own. And yes, it is physically and mentally exhausting! And about being introverted I am very extroverted in all areas....except in terms of my beliefs. I keep my beliefs extremely private and have in fact been agonizing every Monday evening over if I am finally going to suck it up and force myself to go to my first drum circle lol. I'm terrified to go because I know that if I do, things will never be the same. Do you ever feel like that? Locally I'm quite seduced by this one group in particular, almost like a close family circle comprised mainly of solitary pagans. I'm so close after all these years of searching, of actually feeling like I can trust a group enough to "come out" as I've called it. I think it's appeals to me because while they are a larger group who many practice together I'm sure, they are not a coven. If they were a coven I honestly don't think I would be interested. I'm almost certain at this point that I walk a solitary path but I have this need to socialize and to observe the unknown. I wanna know what they know dammit and see if any of it vibrates to me! :lol:

[Meadhbh]

Some people feel like they have to work in a group other feel like the never could. It depends on the person, also when you in a group setting it is importaint to feel comfortable there for the group to really work. Since you mentioned shamanism I would like to point out that as a general rule most shamans have not formed groups with other shamans. It has been done and can be but as a general rule its a one person kind of path.

[darkchild]

darkchild you and I are very much similar. Particularly in terms of healing and helping only one person at a time until that person is healed or can continue to heal on their own. And yes, it is physically and mentally exhausting! And about being introverted I am very extroverted in all areas....except in terms of my beliefs. I keep my beliefs extremely private and have in fact been agonizing every Monday evening over if I am finally going to suck it up and force myself to go to my first drum circle lol. I'm terrified to go because I know that if I do, things will never be the same. Do you ever feel like that? Locally I'm quite seduced by this one group in particular, almost like a close family circle comprised mainly of solitary pagans. I'm so close after all these years of searching, of actually feeling like I can trust a group enough to "come out" as I've called it. I think it's appeals to me because while they are a larger group who many practice together I'm sure, they are not a coven. If they were a coven I honestly don't think I would be interested. I'm almost certain at this point that I walk a solitary path but I have this need to socialize and to observe the unknown. I wanna know what they know dammit and see if any of it vibrates to me! :lol:

Yes, I do feel like that, AmyDarling. (HaHa, I feel like I know you very well and am using an endearment when I type your name. ) I wonder if I will ever be able to set aside my fear of having my own little universe blown wide open. This forum has been really great in allowing me to see other's opinions and ideas, but I know real life is different. You have to interact as opposed to just lurking around and reading about other people and their experiences.

[darkchild]

Some people feel like they have to work in a group other feel like the never could. It depends on the person, also when you in a group setting it is importaint to feel comfortable there for the group to really work. Since you mentioned shamanism I would like to point out that as a general rule most shamans have not formed groups with other shamans. It has been done and can be but as a general rule its a one person kind of path.

Oh, yes. I know with Shamanism, I will be solitary or have one teacher at a time. I am also interested in ceremonial magic, which is where a group could possibly come in to play. Maybe I should just focus on Shamanism for now, because it is calling to me more strongly than ever before.

[darkchild]

Gally this seems to be the case IN GA. I had a friend that use to live there back in 2000 for a few years. She told me the the GA pagans had some "interesting" ideas about running thier covens. I do not remember the area of GA she lived in at the time but some of the stories were shocking to say the least.

Darkchild i hope you got my Pm's to you.

:cheers:

Yes!! Thank you. I PM'D you back.

[LadyWillow]

I tried to get a group of people together to really work magick. I did. But, sadly, a lot of things ensued that just made the whole thing a mess. Really. One thing after the other occured, people began to complain about everything and we were constantly at eachother's throats..a lot. So, I decided that I'd rather be on my own than with other's. At least I can get things done when I'm alone.

[darkchild]

I tried to get a group of people together to really work magick. I did. But, sadly, a lot of things ensued that just made the whole thing a mess. Really. One thing after the other occured, people began to complain about everything and we were constantly at eachother's throats..a lot. So, I decided that I'd rather be on my own than with other's. At least I can get things done when I'm alone.

I've had several people tell me that was a problem with their group experience as well. Can't we all just get along? _inabox_ :hahugh:

[aluokaloo]

it depends on what you are studying, alot of things can be learned either way. I choose a solitary path because I can go at my own pace, and not hurried or pressured to do this or that. I can learn what I want/need and have my own schedule. I am sure that within a structured group there are a lot of benefits. Don't forget that it's not all about groups or seolitary, there also classes, that you can take when you have the time partnerships, which is with you and one person you'd like to work with, and mentoring, where you mentor or be mentored by just one or more teachers at specific times.

[lestismitethee]

it depends on what you are studying, alot of things can be learned either way. I choose a solitary path because I can go at my own pace, and not hurried or pressured to do this or that. I can learn what I want/need and have my own schedule.

I have to say this definitely helps if you are stressed with work or are in college!

-- Gally

[LadyWillow]

I've had several people tell me that was a problem with their group experience as well. Can't we all just get along? _inabox_ :hahugh:


lol no one knows how to get along! I mean, a lot of them really wanted to get a group started. We had names and things picked out, things were working ok in the beginning. However, they wanted me to be the group leader of the group, and that was ok with me. I would have been all for it. However, a guy came along that brought a lot of negativity to the group but it was hard to ditch him since he was a friend's boyfriend. It was a huge issue to try and deal with him, and try to get us all to work together. Solitary, I can work at my own pace. It's not saying that I'd rather not be with some other people sometimes, it's just that because of those issue's, I think I'd rather be on my own and avoid a lot of the negativity and drama.

[Vigdisdotter]

If I do the work it takes to be called a Shaman, for instance, am I a Shaman, or must I have someone else tell me that I am? Very confusing.

Well for starters what do you think that "work" entails? :)

As for the title of Shaman I'm of the opinion you are one when others recognize you as such.

In the case of most titles i really don't sweat what people call themselves because how they resent themselves will demonstrate where or not they are what they claim to be :P

[Lolair]

Right now I am a solitary seeker with a focus on traditional witchcraft and shamanism. I am also in a group, but it is an informal one. While there is still arguments and the occassional bout of politics, since it is an informal group with no leaders or degrees it is a lot more mellow and fun. I have been friends with a few local covens, all of which have recently fallen apart. One coven fell apart in a friendly way - everyone was ready to move on, another dissolved due to personality conflicts (two pig-headed people), and the last completely crumbled due to an HPS with "Queen Bee" syndrome who alienated all of her coven members by creating a group that had all of the classic cult red flags.

Watching all of these covens dissolve made me want to avoid a coven as much as possible, I saw a lot of infighting, backstabbing and name-calling and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. I have since had my opinion changed by my partner's current coven. It is a very large one that has hived off a few times, they are all very down to earth and friendly - I haven't seen any of the warning symptoms that the other covens had. I have no intention to join, but I am hopeful now that one day I'll find a similar group who shares my path and beliefs, and that it can be a successful venture.

Darkchild, although many say the path of a Shaman is a solitary one I do not recommend starting off this way as going into trance or journeying to other worlds can be very dangerous to do alone and inexperienced - you may not be able to find your way back, or you may encounter trouble with no one there to help you. It's highly recommended to have a spotter - someone keeping and eye on you and even guiding you through the process. It doesn't require a coven, just an experienced person. From sizing up your interests I think you may be able to find relevant teachers here for the material and practices you wish to learn: Toteg Tribe - Greenwood Clan (http://www.toteg.org/Greenwood/Greenwood.html). Toteg Tribe is the 'coven' of Joe Wilson who learned from Robert Cochrane, he later changed his form of non-wiccan witchcraft to a more shamanistic model.

[darkchild]

Well for starters what do you think that "work" entails? :)

As for the title of Shaman I'm of the opinion you are one when others recognize you as such.

In the case of most titles i really don't sweat what people call themselves because how they resent themselves will demonstrate where or not they are what they claim to be :P

As far as what I see right now, the work of a Shaman is mainly as a healer of people, whether they be tribe member or community members, but this healing usually takes place with the help of many other componants, not just, say, giving a massage or counceling someone without insight from your spirit guide or using information that you derive from seeking inside yourself and other places.

I, in no way, consider myself qualified at this point to call myself anything as far as shamanic studies go. All I know right now is that I am driven to help people heal themselves of all kinds of ailments, whether they be physical, emotional or spritual. Whenever someone comes to me with a problem, which is daily, I want to just strip the problem away from them, whatever it takes. Now, I know that this can't happen without their consent and help, but it makes me so sad to feel that I can't do all that is necessary to effect a healing. I study for many hours every day, sometimes it's psychology (for myself), sometimes it's herbalist in nature, sometimes nutrition or whatever it may be, but I feel that I am just blowing in the wind. No real direction, which is why I asked the question about getting help from a group or teacher. Is it possible to get what I need all by myself?

Titles basically mean nothing to me, other than as a means to communicate how you can help others. If I call myself a massage therapist, which I do, it is only to let others know that I can help them in that way, etc...

I know that this is a touchy subject, I hesitate to even talk it because I don't want people to think I am full of myself or am trying to grab notoriety for being a "Shaman". This is not what I want at all. I just want some help finding my direction. I already know that this is the path I want to take, it has been marked out for me. I didn't glamourize it in my mind and think it would be "cool" to be a Shaman. If I don't help people, I get nearly suicidal in my depression, it's almost like corking a bottle of soda and shaking it up, the pressure is insane. I am absolutely driven to do this and everyone who knows me could tell you this if you were to ask them. I have lots of work to do in myself before I will feel comfortable helping others in the way a Shaman would, my Shadow self is fractured in lots of ways. I know I have to heal myself first, this is so hard to do though. I guess the pain is a type of path we follow to healing.

Okay, I just realized that I am writing my life story here. I'm not going to delete it because it took me a long time to think it out, but I don't expect replies or anything if you don't care to. (whew)

[Vigdisdotter]

As far as what I see right now, the work of a Shaman is mainly as a healer of people, whether they be tribe member or community members

So only those that are incarnate need help/healing?

I'm not trying to trip you up here or be snarky :) I just tend to ask questions when i want to see someone explain their ideas.

I, in no way, consider myself qualified at this point to call myself anything as far as shamanic studies go.

Oh, you might be surprised :P

All I know right now is that I am driven to help people heal themselves of all kinds of ailments, whether they be physical, emotional or spritual.

Okay next question, well two actually ~_^ Have you came across the label of "wounded healer" as applied to Shamans? There are very good reasons for it/ Mostly because the Shamans themselves first had to under go their own healing. In piecing themselves back together (emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.) they are then equipped to understand the needs of those that seek them out. Which leads me to the next question. Have you broken and mended?

The idea of the shamanic intuition being life threatening IS true, but not always in a physical sense. And no matter what it's not a pleasant thing.

it makes me so sad to feel that I can't do all that is necessary to effect a healing.

Sounds like you need to work on your personal shields. you're not going to be a very effective healer if you get drawn into the problems and dramas of others, allowing the what-ifs to take your energy.

Is it possible to get what I need all by myself?

That depends entirely on what you "need" :)

I know that this is a touchy subject

Meh. If something is touchy then its' all the more important to talk about it so that things are out in the open rather then people making assumptions.

If I don't help people, I get nearly suicidal in my depression, it's almost like corking a bottle of soda and shaking it up, the pressure is insane.

Yup, you REALLY need to work on those shields and basic grounding and centering from the sounds of it. That is seriously not healthy, and it will limit your ability to help others.

Okay, I just realized that I am writing my life story here. I'm not going to delete it because it took me a long time to think it out, but I don't expect replies or anything if you don't care to. (whew)

No worries. I wouldn't' have said anything if i wasn't interested :)

[lestismitethee]

I have lots of work to do in myself before I will feel comfortable helping others in the way a Shaman would, my Shadow self is fractured in lots of ways. I know I have to heal myself first, this is so hard to do though. I guess the pain is a type of path we follow to healing.

I'm right there with you _inabox_ _inabox_ ! Don't worry... it will come with time and effort, and having supportive people around you helps, too. I hope this place can be part of your support.

I think Vigdisdotter hit it right on the nail with "Wounded Healer". Just keep researching, never ever stop learning, and keep practicing meditation.

As for the journeying goes... If I am able to communicate with my spirit guides and have them as my teachers, will they be able to help me with the journeying?

-- Gally

[Vigdisdotter]

If I am able to communicate with my spirit guides and have them as my teachers, will they be able to help me with the journeying?

Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: Your guides will only be one PART of your support network when you are starting out. No, I'm nto saying that you have to had a Shamanic teacher (though that is certianly bonus) but you DO need some to "spot" you are you journey, who can call you back if you should become "lost" in your journey. Do this for teh first ten journeys just as a basic safety messure.

[lestismitethee]

Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: Your guides will only be one PART of your support network when you are starting out. No, I'm nto saying that you have to had a Shamanic teacher (though that is certianly bonus) but you DO need some to "spot" you are you journey, who can call you back if you should become "lost" in your journey. Do this for teh first ten journeys just as a basic safety messure.

Thanks for the advice :] I will write this down in my Book and remember to do this when the time comes!

-- Gally

[coyoger]

I usually pratice by myself, or with my family. But from time to tim I do like to get together in a group. Groups tend to bring up a different kind of energy. But there isn't really a group that I fit in.

[darkchild]

So only those that are incarnate need help/healing?

I'm not trying to trip you up here or be snarky :) I just tend to ask questions when i want to see someone explain their ideas.



Oh, you might be surprised :P



Okay next question, well two actually ~_^ Have you came across the label of "wounded healer" as applied to Shamans? There are very good reasons for it/ Mostly because the Shamans themselves first had to under go their own healing. In piecing themselves back together (emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.) they are then equipped to understand the needs of those that seek them out. Which leads me to the next question. Have you broken and mended?

The idea of the shamanic intuition being life threatening IS true, but not always in a physical sense. And no matter what it's not a pleasant thing.



Sounds like you need to work on your personal shields. you're not going to be a very effective healer if you get drawn into the problems and dramas of others, allowing the what-ifs to take your energy.



That depends entirely on what you "need" :)



Meh. If something is touchy then its' all the more important to talk about it so that things are out in the open rather then people making assumptions.



Yup, you REALLY need to work on those shields and basic grounding and centering from the sounds of it. That is seriously not healthy, and it will limit your ability to help others.



No worries. I wouldn't' have said anything if i wasn't interested :)

Sorry, I don't know how to use the multi-quote thingie.

As far as who needs healing - I think all beings, whether they be corporeal or otherwise could be in need of help from a healer. I guess I have never really put that into words for anybody before, but any sentient being (now we have to define sentience LOL) may need that at some time. In my mind this could include spirit beings as well. I don't necessarily feel that I can make a list of who could possibly need the help of a healer at this point, as that is very limiting. I do know that animals are on that list as well.

I definitely know that I must heal myself first. How can I expect to be able to be effective in helping someone else if I can't do it for myself first? I have lots of issues that must be dealt with. As I said before, I know that my Shadow self is fractured. I must deal with that before moving on to other things. And shielding, that is a huge gap in my education. I definitely have lots of work to do there. I spend lots of time trying to absorb the pain and suffering of others and I need to stop that. I know it's not healthy, but it's hard to sit by and let people suffer, even though I don't have the tools to effectively heal them without harming myself in some cases.

It's good to know that I do have the ability within myself to create the healing that I need to do. I just feel like I need some direction through it.

[darkchild]

fromRight now I am a solitary seeker with a focus on traditional witchcraft and shamanism. I am also in a group, but it is an informal one. While there is still arguments and the occassional bout of politics, since it is an informal group with no leaders or degrees it is a lot more mellow and fun. I have been friends with a few local covens, all of which have recently fallen apart. One coven fell apart in a friendly way - everyone was ready to move on, another dissolved due to personality conflicts (two pig-headed people), and the last completely crumbled due to an HPS with "Queen Bee" syndrome who alienated all of her coven members by creating a group that had all of the classic cult red flags.

Watching all of these covens dissolve made me want to avoid a coven as much as possible, I saw a lot of infighting, backstabbing and name-calling and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. I have since had my opinion changed by my partner's current coven. It is a very large one that has hived off a few times, they are all very down to earth and friendly - I haven't seen any of the warning symptoms that the other covens had. I have no intention to join, but I am hopeful now that one day I'll find a similar group who shares my path and beliefs, and that it can be a successful venture.

Darkchild, although many say the path of a Shaman is a solitary one I do not recommend starting off this way as going into trance or journeying to other worlds can be very dangerous to do alone and inexperienced - you may not be able to find your way back, or you may encounter trouble with no one there to help you. It's highly recommended to have a spotter - someone keeping and eye on you and even guiding you through the process. It doesn't require a coven, just an experienced person. From sizing up your interests I think you may be able to find relevant teachers here for the material and practices you wish to learn: Toteg Tribe - Greenwood Clan (http://www.toteg.org/Greenwood/Greenwood.html). Toteg Tribe is the 'coven' of Joe Wilson who learned from Robert Cochrane, he later changed his form of non-wiccan witchcraft to a more shamanistic model.


I am shying away from even trying the coven experience, I just don't want to deal with trying to keep people who are acting like children from ruining a good thing, and I don't want to be one of those "children" either.

As far as going into trance and journeying goes, I don't think I will be trying that anytime soon. I am working on dreamwalking techniques and lucid dreaming, things like that. But I have never tried to do anything more than expanding my consciousness in those areas. I must say that I have been having some fabulous dream experiences, though. I used to not ever remember my dreams, let alone actually participate and direct them. It's really been an eye opener. Thanks for the information. I always appreciate it when someone takes the time to point me in a direction that may lead to furthering my studies. :)

[lestismitethee]

As far as going into trance and journeying goes, I don't think I will be trying that anytime soon. I am working on dreamwalking techniques and lucid dreaming, things like that.

This is also how I've been doing things :hahugh: Maybe we're on the right track!

I think it is important for me to try and contact my spirit guides. As a Shaman, I think a lot of my work will be based around them. I have had one major experience in which I was startled awake, saw a small bear dancing on my bed (he woke me up!), then passed out after I reached out and hugged him. I think the large amount energy for he needed from me to manifest took its toll so I could only have a short experience. But I will never forget it, and it has driven me to try and contact my spirit guide(s) again. I am slowly tuning myself in to hear them when I need them, I think...

But that being said, until I have a stronger connection with them and can openly communicate with them, I won't try journeying b/c I know it is very dangerous. What I'm trying to do now instead is lucid dreaming and meditation to try and see my spirit guides, primarily the Bear which two people have told me is my lifelong spirit animal (one person said polar bear, the other said kodiak bear which is almost in the same region of the world).

It's been almost a year now, I think, since the experience and I haven't had another like it since... But I have succeeded in lucid dreaming a couple times for a short duration. I really, really want to meet them... I just know it will take a lot of time, patience, and practice.

-- Gally

[darkchild]

This is also how I've been doing things :hahugh: Maybe we're on the right track!

I think it is important for me to try and contact my spirit guides. As a Shaman, I think a lot of my work will be based around them. I have had one major experience in which I was startled awake, saw a small bear dancing on my bed (he woke me up!), then passed out after I reached out and hugged him. I think the large amount energy for he needed from me to manifest took its toll so I could only have a short experience. But I will never forget it, and it has driven me to try and contact my spirit guide(s) again. I am slowly tuning myself in to hear them when I need them, I think...

But that being said, until I have a stronger connection with them and can openly communicate with them, I won't try journeying b/c I know it is very dangerous. What I'm trying to do now instead is lucid dreaming and meditation to try and see my spirit guides, primarily the Bear which two people have told me is my lifelong spirit animal (one person said polar bear, the other said kodiak bear which is almost in the same region of the world).

It's been almost a year now, I think, since the experience and I haven't had another like it since... But I have succeeded in lucid dreaming a couple times for a short duration. I really, really want to meet them... I just know it will take a lot of time, patience, and practice.

-- Gally

Wow, that's an amazing experience! I haven't had a waking contact with my spirit guide yet, only through dreaming so far. I just started meditating to drumming, which is a mind-blowing experience for me, I can't believe how easy it is to get into a trance state this way. I have also read that tonal whistling works as well, but I have yet to try that, I am still in love with the drum.

I'm glad to know that you are experiencing results by doing things in a similar way to me, it gives me hope that I am on the right track too! :viking:

[Windsmith]

I'm sure there are probably other threads on this topic, but I would like to ask others out there why you have chosen a coven/group experience or choose to be a solitary practitioner.

I have been searching for a path that feels right for some time now and that means research and reading books until they are towering over me in piles.

Lots of the books I have read suggest that you can't really start out on your own, because there will always be things you don't know or understand unless you are initiated.

I feel like I have lots of knowledge from reading about so many different things, but I see the point that some make about never really KNOWING, because I don't know what to do with all of the things that are now floating around in my brain.

I feel called to this, which is why I am searching, but what must happen in order to BE a __________ (fill in the blank). I am drawn to Shamanism, because I have always been a healer in some capacity, but the path is hidden to me. I know that I am very new to all of this and maybe time and practice are all that is required, but maybe some of you could enlighten me as to how you begin if you don't have a teacher. Or, maybe you feel that you must have a teacher.

Please, share your wisdom with me.I love working with a group. I'm a social creature by nature, and after about a year of solitary work, I got so sick of having only my own thoughts to keep me company in this work, and I started looking for a group to work with.

But, I was never drawn toward the standard coven structure. I looked for a more loosely-structured group. My larger spiritual community is a group of people from the same Pagan tradition who work either solitary or in small groups and who come together sporadically for seasonal rituals, classes, community-building gatherings, or social activism work, as we are called. For 4 years, that was plenty for me, but then I started wanting a more consistent working group. But I still didn't want a coven.

In September, my wife, one of our dearest friends, and I convened our "artists' cabal" - just the 3 of us, meeting once a month to explore the interstices of spirituality, community, and art. We all identify as Pagan (or at least Paganesque) but we all follow different traditions. This way, we can have the support of community without being forced to adhere to one set of beliefs and practices; we each pursue our own work in our own way, with our own beliefs and codes underpinning them.

My wife follows a shamanic path and, from what I've seen of it, it's a lonely one. It's the work of those who live in the liminal spaces between the tamed village and the untamed wild places, the carrier of messages from animals, plants, and other natural forces to the human community. Some traditions hold that this work demands solitude - that, in fact, solitude is what makes it possible. I know I haven't seen everything there is to see, but one thing I've never seen is a coven of shamans. But I offer my experiences as a reminder that there are other types of groups, and other ways to be in community.

One quick note about teachers: be cautious to whom you entrust your learning. When I was first exploring Paganism, I attended a shamanism class led by a woman who had no idea what she was doing or talking about. Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people who call themselves teachers of shamanism are like her: people who claim to have knowledge of ancient traditions but who practice a distorted, appropriated path bearing resemblance to shamanic practice in no culture I've ever heard of. Unless you can find a truly knowledgable and trustworthy teacher, you're probably better off learning as much as you can from direct experience: walk in forests, swim in lakes, watch and listen to the plants and the animals. If they themselves choose to initiate you, you'll know.

[lestismitethee]

Wow, that's an amazing experience! I haven't had a waking contact with my spirit guide yet, only through dreaming so far.

Believe it or not, my experience was before I seriously got into Shamanism, even before I started my meditation. I had begun researching Shamanism and it was my favorite thing out of all the spitirual Paths I had looked through. I had two people give me a spirit guide reading and both said it was a Bear. The night after I read over the second reading, which my friend did for me, that's when he appeared! And I know it was not a dream even though I "woke up" in the middle of the night because I vividly remember what I thought when I woke up, how I felt, the feel of the bed and his fur as I touched him, the slight foresty/animal scent... but I also remember falling back asleep after I touched him and I started dreaming again. It was strange, but I know for a fact it wasn't a dream... ^_^


I just started meditating to drumming, which is a mind-blowing experience for me, I can't believe how easy it is to get into a trance state this way. I have also read that tonal whistling works as well, but I have yet to try that, I am still in love with the drum.

I will have to try this. I've had many people recommend drums for trances, but I haven't tried it yet because I live in an apartment with very thin walls. But... I could try to get a CD and play it in a CD-player while I meditate ^^ Thanks for letting me know about this! I will definitely try it now.


And Windsmith, thanks so much for your advice :] The main reason why I chose Shamanism is because I love animals and I have a deep respect for Nature and the Earth... I want to have a closer connection with all the creatures around me and help restore the Earth.

-- Gally

[childofbast]

I started as a solitary, and I still pretty much am. I enjoy the freedom to do things when and how I feel. However, I got to feeling lonely on holidays and such. Eventually I found a local Pagan group that holds open circles. I really enjoy that because I'm not tied down, and yet I have friends to practice with. Through them, I found two other women I can practice with. We meet up about twice a month and, although it's not really a coven, it fills in a gap. So...I would agree that being solitary leaves something to be desired. Group work is thrilling. There's more energy to work with, and the companionship is a wonderful gift.

Good luck finding your way!

[Vigdisdotter]

I will have to try this. I've had many people recommend drums for trances, but I haven't tried it yet because I live in an apartment with very thin walls.

Just wanted to check, but you ladies do know that there is a difference between Meditations and Trances/Journeys, yes?

[darkchild]

Just wanted to check, but you ladies do know that there is a difference between Meditations and Trances/Journeys, yes?

Just speaking for myself, yes. I have meditated for years and it is nothing like what happens when I am in that place where drumming takes me. Totally different experience. That's one of the reasons I am wondering if I need to find someone to help me as I progress. The trances are what I would consider to be a journeying. I feel it. I do not want to go much further on my own if it might not be safe.

[darkchild]

I love working with a group. I'm a social creature by nature, and after about a year of solitary work, I got so sick of having only my own thoughts to keep me company in this work, and I started looking for a group to work with.

But, I was never drawn toward the standard coven structure. I looked for a more loosely-structured group. My larger spiritual community is a group of people from the same Pagan tradition who work either solitary or in small groups and who come together sporadically for seasonal rituals, classes, community-building gatherings, or social activism work, as we are called. For 4 years, that was plenty for me, but then I started wanting a more consistent working group. But I still didn't want a coven.

In September, my wife, one of our dearest friends, and I convened our "artists' cabal" - just the 3 of us, meeting once a month to explore the interstices of spirituality, community, and art. We all identify as Pagan (or at least Paganesque) but we all follow different traditions. This way, we can have the support of community without being forced to adhere to one set of beliefs and practices; we each pursue our own work in our own way, with our own beliefs and codes underpinning them.

My wife follows a shamanic path and, from what I've seen of it, it's a lonely one. It's the work of those who live in the liminal spaces between the tamed village and the untamed wild places, the carrier of messages from animals, plants, and other natural forces to the human community. Some traditions hold that this work demands solitude - that, in fact, solitude is what makes it possible. I know I haven't seen everything there is to see, but one thing I've never seen is a coven of shamans. But I offer my experiences as a reminder that there are other types of groups, and other ways to be in community.

One quick note about teachers: be cautious to whom you entrust your learning. When I was first exploring Paganism, I attended a shamanism class led by a woman who had no idea what she was doing or talking about. Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people who call themselves teachers of shamanism are like her: people who claim to have knowledge of ancient traditions but who practice a distorted, appropriated path bearing resemblance to shamanic practice in no culture I've ever heard of. Unless you can find a truly knowledgable and trustworthy teacher, you're probably better off learning as much as you can from direct experience: walk in forests, swim in lakes, watch and listen to the plants and the animals. If they themselves choose to initiate you, you'll know.

The part of your post that I put in bold letters has hit the nail on the head. I am concerned about finding a teacher who will not abuse the trust that a student must place in one who leads you through the dark. I thought I had found one a few months ago. I saw her advertisement for an ecstatic dance workshop and gave her a call. She started out sounding very knowledgeable, but as we conversed over the course of a few weeks, she started to ask me to participate in more than a student role in the class. By the time I told her I was no longer interested, I was to be teaching the class and she was going to be the "helper". :eek:

You can imagine my thoughts when I realized that she was either trying to take advantage of my ignorance or she just plain didn't know what she was doing. I will be investigating the credentials of the next "teacher" that I come across very carefully!

[lestismitethee]

Just wanted to check, but you ladies do know that there is a difference between Meditations and Trances/Journeys, yes?

Yes :] I have not done any journeying and I don't plan to unless I know EXACTLY what I'm doing and I have someone/something helping me. All I am doing for now is meditation to better myself and to meet my spirit guides.

-- Gally

[Windsmith]

She started out sounding very knowledgeable, but as we conversed over the course of a few weeks, she started to ask me to participate in more than a student role in the class. By the time I told her I was no longer interested, I was to be teaching the class and she was going to be the "helper". :eek:Wow. Just...wow. I mean, I've heard people say that you learn the most by teaching, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean "you learn the most by making your students teach you"!

My personal experience was less blatant. I was in this day-long workshop where we went on several trance journeys (and, as an aside, the one thing I felt my "teacher" did really right was using drumming for the trances. What an incredibly powerful experience!). The first was to meet our animal spirit allies (she called them totem or power animals, but I'm not comfortable using those words, myself). When we returned from the journey and shared our experiences with each other, I noticed that the more "traditional" the animal seemed, the more interested she was. For anyone who said Wolf, Eagle, Owl, Coyote, or the like, she was all a-twitter, going on and on about how powerful their medicine was. When we got to me, I described how Squirrel had come to greet me. She shrugged, said something like, "OK, squirrels are important," and moved on.

She was like that all day. After a journey to meet human spirit guides, she was most interested in the most outrageously "Native." Braves in full headdress, squaws carrying papooses - give me a break, please, but she couldn't get enough. But describe someone who seemed more African or Asian or - heaven forfend! - European, and she tuned out before the end of the first sentence.

Lo and behold, about a week after being so thoroughly disdained in her workshop, she sent an email - special seekrit just-for-me, winkwink - telling me how much potential she thought I showed, and how much she'd love to continue working with me to develop my skills. I told her no thanks and politely forbore inquiring about her fees.

[Rudas Starblaze]

I'm sure there are probably other threads on this topic, but I would like to ask others out there why you have chosen a coven/group experience or choose to be a solitary practitioner.



me, i dont have much use for a coven. hell, i dont even hang out with my own friends!

as for books. well, i dont have much use for them either. havent found one yet that told me anything i didnt already know. except for like herbal stuff.

[darkchild]

me, i dont have much use for a coven. hell, i dont even hang out with my own friends!

as for books. well, i dont have much use for them either. havent found one yet that told me anything i didnt already know. except for like herbal stuff.

Yeah,
I don't have any real friends. I don't hang out with anyone or even spend time trying to cultivate relationships with potential friends, that's part of my problem.

I do read any book I can get my hands on, I have about 15 books that I am reading right now (too many?). Lots of what I read seems to be common sense, but I always think I'm missing something important if I don't read that "one" more book on a topic. Maybe I should just be doing instead of reading.

[SoulFire]

Watching all of these covens dissolve made me want to avoid a coven as much as possible, I saw a lot of infighting, backstabbing and name-calling and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. I have since had my opinion changed by my partner's current coven. It is a very large one that has hived off a few times, they are all very down to earth and friendly - I haven't seen any of the warning symptoms that the other covens had. I have no intention to join, but I am hopeful now that one day I'll find a similar group who shares my path and beliefs, and that it can be a successful venture.

I'm somewhat lucky in that my current coven is very down-to-earth, and we don't have any of the political infighting going on that I've read about. This may be due to the fact that we're all older now and don't have time for drama. The thing that sucks is that we all live in different states, which makes getting together regularly a challenge. If we ever officially break-up, it will be due to logistics, not any personality conflicts.

I've been in bad covens in the past. My first coven's HPs had "Witch Queen syndrome". My next coven disbanded due to lack of focus, and my third broke up due to "HPs syndrone" also. My current coven is more laid back; we make decisions by consensus, so there are fewer arguments. Usually, we come to a friendly resolution when there's a disagreement between us. We have no inherent hierarchy; no "High Priestess" or "High Priest". We're all highly trained and skilled. We divvy up responsibilities based on interest and aptitude rather.

Basically, I'm solo right now, except when my partner and I do something together. I don't think I ever want another coven, a clan maybe, but not a coven per se. If one falls into my lap, and it looks promising, I might take it up, but I'm not actively seeking.