Breaking the Boy Code

[Flar's Freyja]

I attended a parent educator workshop today and one of the sessions I attended dealt with the way we raise and socialize our sons. Even with all of our enlightenment, many parents are still passing generational attitudes on to their sons. The lecturer called this the Boy Code:

Sturdy Oak - strong, silent, stoic, stable, reserved

Give 'Em Hell - intimidating, John Wayne type, aggression

Big Wheel - successful, powerful, dominant, avoiding shame, pushing to prove worth

No Sissy Stuff - emphasis on masculine behavior

Raising boys like this adversely effects their ability to connect with others, impairing their ability to have and enjoy close, intimate relationships. The code also supports and encourages aggression.

As a single mother, I tried very hard to "break" this code but anything that I did was immediately undone by athletic coaches, my sons' friends' fathers and other males in the community. Another concern is that even in two parent families, women are doing the majority of child-rearing.

I'm interested in knowing your thoughts on this and any methods that you might be using the break the code. I am especially interested in hearing from our male members as to how you were raised, how this has affected you and how you are raising your own sons, if applicable. Are we breaking the Boy Code?

[Man/Wolf]

My son is already out on his own. We tried to raise him with the attitude that the sexes are equal in intelligence and ability. It seemed to work, he is in a healthy relationship. We also raised him to be open with his emotions. Don't know how that worked out as he is naturally quiet and reserved. Takes after his maternal grandfather and his mama.

[Old Witch]

I'm gonna have to give this some thought........Ken was and still is a coach.....in rec ball he emphasized sportsmanship....and not destroying an opponent.... our sons learned well from this. We taught them their feelings were important to us and to express them. They aren't afraid to cry when they are sad, rejoice out loud when glad, and they don't go around hitting people when they are mad. We taught them to respect people who deserved it, not to bully the weak, and be kind to everyone. They are all good young adults who are respected in our community, so I guess we did all right.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Well for a while my one son liked to play with his sisters barbies and that was ok he has moved onto "army dudes" They look like military ken dolls. He also sometimes likes to borrow mine or my daughters clothes we just tell him to put them away when he is done with them and make sure he understands that he could be teased for it if word got out.

[Xander67]

well, this is certainly a deep topic here.

to begin with, My mother divocred my father when I was in 2nd grade. Although I was only a child and did not understand everything...I knew enough to know WHY mom and dad were not together. They say a child learns from what he sees...

I dont know if I could post the WHY in here.. But I can say that I learned from my father WHAT NOT to do.

My mother did the best she could..eventually, she met another man and he Loved me and my sister like we were his own.

Although his idea of encouragement and support was,
"if you bring anything less than a C on your reprt card into this house ....yada yada yada" :woah:

I know in my heart he loved me and was doing the best he could..
so I learned yet another method that does not work

the "give em hell method does not work"

well Actually, i cant exactly say it didnt becuase I graduated high school without a police record and had not tryed any of the assorted Vices that teens were always pressured into trying.

I believe a child should be brought up in a loving environment.
always getting encouragement and support, yet also firmness a bit to motivate.

When they win first prize in the spelling be, Reward them for their achievement. when they loose, dont call them stupid... give them a reward for haveing the courage to try, and help them to win next time!

Spirituality issues... this is always a hard one... I must admit, I believe the mother and the father should be in agreement on this issue...yes, it is not always possible for both the husband and wife to agree on everything, but respect each others beliefs..
raise the child and teach them good virtues, and encourage them to grow and seek. of course the family would want to celebrate certain holidays as tradition, but what to do when the child says, "MOM .....Dad, I dont want to celebrate this I dont agree with it... " I feel we should not force our beliefs on our kids when they begin to search for thier own path... instead we should encourage them and help if possible, and most important we should teach them the importance of respecting other peoples paths and beliefs..."


I was not fortunate enough to have all of that, but My children will..

[Flar's Freyja]

8O Had to do the first post in a hurry - long story....might not have been clear enough.

In addition to the gender identity stuff like toys, clothes, etc., how are we handling the emotional issues, such as

What is your reaction when your son cries?

How do you respond when he is angry?

Do you communicate, and if so, how do you accomplish that?

Do you encourage your sons to talk to you about what's bothering them?

What kinds of suggestions do you give him to deal with problems with others? i.e., do you encourage fighting, etc.

Hope that makes it easier.

Added:

Just saw Xander's post, he's got the right idea! Thanks, Xander. Just what I was looking for.

[Man/Wolf]

I can give you an idea of what it was like to be raised in the 50's and early 60's. Let me know if you want me to.
Feel to good to do it now! :)

[Flar's Freyja]

Of course! Anything you want to contribute is of value. At your leisure.

[Man/Wolf]

Okay. It'll be a couple of days before my biorhythms will be right. Right now my physical side is dominant and my intellect is on sabbatical. :( But that can be good, too! :boing:

[Old Witch]

Our sons had a doll, one of my old ones actually to play with, they are spaced far apart so I only had to use one, they actually all loved her very much, then they graduated to Star Trek action figures and such.
When our sons cry, we comfort them and let them know we are there to help them. And grown sons do cry.
When they are angry, they rant and rave and again we listen and try to guide but not lecture.
Many nights were spent in long conversations with a kid sitting on the side of the bed, they are intelligent so its always been a pleasure. They talk to their Dad on a golf course or a baseball field or in the car...any where....
I don't encourage them to talk to me when something is bothering them, they insist on it.
My three sons are very close to each other. Right now they are together at the two oldests home.
Ken and I decided that our family would always be our No.1 priority. He coached them for 21yrs so he could spend time with them, and in doing that he infuenced and helped many who needed a real man to look up to. I only worked when my parents could keep my kids and when I could take them to school and pick them up from school. My kids have never been to daycare, never been left behind on a vacation, and if my kids weren't welcome with open arms, we didn't go.
Did we miss out on somethings? Probably. Do I regret it? NO.
I realise that parents today have to work, and I'm not saying my way is the only way, but it's what worked for us. By the way, Ken and I have been married 29 yrs. I'm Pagan and he's Christian, one son is agnostic, one's undecided, and one is confused( we're working on that) Sorry to bore you.

[Flar's Freyja]

That's not boring at all! You've made sacrifices for your family but it doesn't seem that you think of them as sacrifices. It sounds like your family has always been a priority, and yours sounds like a very healthy family to me. I'm in awe that your differences in spiritual practices haven't caused conflict. Thanks so much for sharing that.

A suggestion from the workshop on getting your sons to talk to you is to "Sit down, smile, and shut your mouth." Our kids want our attention. When we are available to them, they're more likely to talk to us. I've caught myself many times being wrapped up in trying to get things done, etc. that I don't sit down and make myself available. Mealtimes were always an excellent time to do that. Although I only have one at home now, I still make it a point to cook when he is home so that we can talk and share a meal. When he comes into the house excited about something, I drop what I'm doing to listen. The feeling you get when your kids, especially your boys, want to share their lives with you is such a blessing.

Sounds like you've done a great job of that, OW.

[flar7]

hmmm
Flar was raised by Sturdy Oak. men dont hit women. men can
take anything.
Its ok to cry when you are young or in pain. This changed much
later when I was 20 and true grief was introduced to the immediate family.

I am the Oak. That which does not break me makes me stronger(apologies to nietzche) I suppress emotional things way to much
and have reached storage capacity....(some guys may know what
I mean, my psychologist certainly does) I cant get past that issue,
just take it, whatever it is. Take it. Suppress it or it consumes you
kind of thinking. I use art and writing as an outlet for these darker
thoughts. Anyone who has seen some of my darker paintings or
read my real dark stuff can recognize this.

Would I change this in me? no, it is who I am. Would I raise my
son different? only a little, I would try to let him know that men
are not steel, its ok to bend a little...(am still trying to learn that one!)

[Flar's Freyja]

I understand what you mean about repressing emotional things, some women do that too;) It's great that you have an outlet in your art and writing and that you use it. Many people don't and it turns into aggression.

Sounds like you're comfortable with who you are!

[flar7]

sorta, still need to fix the whole.....unbidden stupid crying at
inopportune times thingie!!:mad:

[Flar's Freyja]

:( IMHO, real men can cry unbidden at inopportune times.

[flar7]

unh unh, got my real men handbook right here....
chapter 1
crying permitted at daughters wedding, losing of limb, death in
immediate family...etc etc.

not at stupid comercials and tv shows!:T
Feel like the guy in the movie, "Analyze this" the one DeNiro played.

[Flar's Freyja]

I love you too much to argue with you.

Learned that in the workshop too;)

[Flaire]

Jumping in on this one a little bit late..But I don't have much to say either ~ seeing as I am neither male nor have any sons....But I do remember some things that my mom taught my brother when he was younger.

Yes, no hitting and treating everyone equal was a must.. More often than not, we dealt with things on the physical side, and more or less ignored how everyone was feeling (I still can't tell how my brother's feeling when I look at him....he's a brick, even more than my dad is).
As we were moving around a lot when my brother was pre-school aged, he learned a lot from my grandfather, I suppose, since we were living with them at the time ~ my dad wasn't living with us then. My grandpa was great...Wise? Not really..Didn't tell too many stories either, but he was fun to hang around. He did things with us when we were there...Spoiled us too - really brought out the giving, rather than recieving lessons.
When we moved back in with my dad a few months later (around Yule of 91), my brother really clung to him, I guess. Being around mostly women, except my grandpa...and an uncle that dropped in every once in a while, my bro didn't really have any other men to look up to - sure he watched TV, but didn't really play with action figures a whole lot (I didn't play with dolls either...heheh) ~ he had some ninja turtles, but would prefer toy cars over them (my dad likes old cars too...coincidence?)...Bro would always want to help mow the lawn....shovel the snow....help plant the garden...go fishing....everything possible he could do with my dad.

I guess, what I'm trying to get at is that my brother practically idolizes my dad..They're similar in so many ways, it's not even funny. But..like I mentioned before - we're more of a physical people... We don't like to let our emotions out. I've never seen my dad cry; I don't remember ever seeing my brother cry - not even when he broke his elbow. None of us are really good at realationships... I guess it's just passed down from generation to generation ~ mom tells me my grandparents weren't good at them either, but we're making an effort.. My bro has been talking with my mom a whole lot more than he used to..I'm sure that's a good thing...It'll help him when he eventually gets a g/f. :)

[Margie]

It sounds like that workshop was very beneficial to you freyja! Alot of wonderful child rearing values have been expressed here. I'm with flaire, I am not male and I have no male children...I DID however meet my boyfriend when he was 16. Since then I have taught him that the universe does not revolve around him, it is not JUST my job to clean because the mess was made by two. It is not JUSt my job to change diapers and give baths to our daughters because they are OURS. Yes we've been through alot of fights but now our relationship is as equal as it can be. He respects me, we laugh and cry together, we're raising our children as we see fit-together. I don't mean to sound like I know how to raise a boy AT ALL! Because I have NO idea. But I can say that my boyfriend was one of those dont-cry-dont-show-your-emotions-dont-let-your-guard-down-and-the-woman-does-all-the-work kinda guys.

[Danustouch]

Since I don't yet have children, I really don't know what I would do to "Break the Boy Code". But I can tell you this. My husband is a macho dork sometimes. Supremely macho dork. Yet, he can also break down into tears at a moments notice, if the right song is played, even listening to Martin Luther King speeches. Yet his family on the other hand, his father...programmed him with every type of macho code available. So I think it has as much to do with someone's own personal makeup, then anything we try to program them with.

However, I have seen these "Codes" effect my brother. My Brother was a very shy, sensitive kid, growing up. He was very quiet, most of the time, and had a sensitive artistic approach to life. He loved music, and would sit for hours playing his guitar..John Denver songs, and James Taylor, who I think many would agree are pretty sappy musicians :) One need only to look in my brothers eyes to see he's a sensitive person. It's written all over his face that he's a deep, slow thinker, and a very sensitive individual.

However, when I was young, my parents somehow foisted upon him the role of being my protector. If anything ever happened to me, somehow, it was my brothers responsibility to protect me, defend me, and even in some cases, to seek revenge. If I got into trouble, and my brother couldn't help me, he was yelled at for "Not protecting me". Suffice it to say, that this soon grew to crazy proportions. He chased my first boyfriend with a bee bee gun, shooting him in the crotch with it, beat the living daylights out of a kid who tried to force himself on me....etc. My sensitive brother...who I remember singing "Sweet Baby James" late at night, became a violent person.

When my brother got into arguments with neighborhood boys, and a fight broke out, my father would sit on the sidelines, screaming at him to "Beat the crap" out of the other kid. Always urging him to fight harder. If my brother would back down, and walk away, my father would tell him.."Be a Man! Go out there and kick some butt". I can also remember my father "Play wrestling" with my brother, or play boxing. And I remember one time, in particular, where my dad was trying to initiate one such mock battle, and threw a couple of very light punches at my brother, and my brother told him to stop. My dad wouldn't and kept trying to egg him on. Finally, my brother flew into a rage, slammed my dad in the stomach, and ran to his room, where he locked himself in, and cried for the rest of the night. That was the Last time, I ever saw the sensitive side of my brother. I swear it. I never saw him cry after that, I never saw him display emotion after that. But my dad also left him alone after that.

These days, true to my fathers teachings, my brother is a leather clad biker, or camoflage clad hunter, who collects guns, get's into bar fights, drives in a battered pick up with a confederate flag on it, grew his hair long, has numerous tattoo's depicting violent scenes, and skulls, and if he plays the guitar these days, it's far more likely to be a Metallica song, then "Sweet Baby James.".

My brother does not want children...ever. And has made that abundantly clear. He will never tell us WHY he doesn't want kids, but he definitely, doesn't. He is now engaged to a 40 year old woman, who has had a hysterectomy....to ensure that.

I can't help but think that all of these changes in my brothers personality, and all of his fighting, is due to the way he was raised. Do to the gender programs my dad endowed him with.

It is odd...my father is now prouder of him, then ever before. He laughs when my brother relates tears of bar fights, etc. Quite sad.

[Flar's Freyja]

I attended several different sessions and have several good threads to start.......It was a wonderful workshop led by a lady named Brenda Bird, parent educator expert....excellent, funny speaker....

When I ended up single with three sons, I had no clue how to raise them. I picked up a book on a bargain table called Raising Sons. It was on the coffee table and my middle one, who was about 12 at the time, came through with a friend, pointed at it and snickered, "Ha, she had to get a book to figure out how to raise us....."

I was attending church at the time and one of the elderly ladies told me that "the Lord wouldn't have given you three boys if he didn't think you could handle it." I was especially concerned because their father was violent. I can't begin to express my gratitude that I decided to go to social worker school and learn ways to repair some of the damage. All of my sons are slow to anger and can be explosive when it hits - but none of them has ever hit a woman. My Gemini definitely expresses his feelings - like a lunatic sometimes! But he's never hurt anyone. The oldest is 22 and he will share with me via e-mail and the youngest doesn't have much of a problem sharing with me. I have an opportunity to observe his relationship with his girlfriend frequently and I am so proud of the positive, loving way he interacts with her. And he respects her.

I had lots of help from the community, but as I stated earlier, they did pick up on gender identification things that I really didn't want them to, but many of these people were positive male role models regardless and I'm grateful that they were there for us.

I am really enjoying hearing from the guys. My idea with this thread was to give them a chance to have input and it surely benefits us. I really appreciate their sharing.

[manstranger]

Yeah .. thats pretty much boys in a nutshell. Being a guy myself, I can ceretainly understand why parents would actually want their kids like that .. so they don't get picked on. Being one of the none boy-coders, I get picked on alot .. because they think I'm gay, because I like to sing, because I write poetry, for lots of reasons .. but you know what? Half of those reasons are just boys lying to themselves to explain why I'm different from them .. so ultimatly raising your kids like that is bad. But with male teachers, uncles, and the like about, its rather hard to break the cycle .. which I guess I do. Its kind of amusing to watch other people trying to figaure me out, but in the end, I think that the non-boy coders get the better deal, cause theres just something special and different about us :).

[Chibi-Fallon]

Well my parents turned me into the boy. :rolleyes: Watch out for that. They were so busy trying to get my brother to express his emotions and all that crap that they pretty much ignored my feelings. So I ended up being the "sturdy oak" type around my family (around my friends I don't have to be) because he's such a wussy. Honestly he was the reason the word "pansy" was invented. I don't go to school with him (but I'll have to in 2 years :eek: ) but I'm pretty sure he gets picked on. Heck, I'd pick on him too.

[Twilight Garden]

Somewhat off topic maybe since I'm girl with no male children. I had no siblings at all. I got to be both the boy and the girl. I was raised by the "Big Wheel" (mom) and the "Sturdy Oak" (dad). And how did I turn out? Not at all like either one of them... I'm a housewife that teaches a little bit of flute on the side. Don't you think the same type of programming happens in girls? I was expected to turn out an attorney or something similar to my mother. I rebelled! But I did end up marrying a "higher-up" who could take care of me. Also you would think I would have abnormally high standards. And I don't, at least I don't think so. (We had a maid most of my life. I think I've turned into her... just kidding.) :D

[Flar's Freyja]

Hadn't thought of that, and Chibi brought that up too. I'd like to hear more about that.

[Flaire]

I can kinda relate to what Chibi is saying.. Like I said before, we're not a totally emotional bunch, so I bottle everything inside. I'm not one for crying, and I feel like kicking myself if I do end up crying in public~ I like to be the strong, sturdy oak tree that people can trust....To listen...To comfort...Just to be a shoulder to cry on.

[Flar's Freyja]

Flaire, do you think that your parents taught you to be that way, or do you think it's just the way you are?

[Flaire]

I think I learned it from them~ they might not have even noticed that they were influencing me...

[Yvonne Belisle]

Hey do sheep count? I am a sheep the family black sheep I am the one my family warns others about! Eat your peas or you will become just like your cousin.:eek: Sad thing is it's true oh well I think there are worse things out there.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by manstranger
Yeah .. thats pretty much boys in a nutshell. Being a guy myself, I can ceretainly understand why parents would actually want their kids like that .. so they don't get picked on. Being one of the none boy-coders, I get picked on alot .. because they think I'm gay, because I like to sing, because I write poetry, for lots of reasons .. but you know what? Half of those reasons are just boys lying to themselves to explain why I'm different from them .. so ultimatly raising your kids like that is bad. But with male teachers, uncles, and the like about, its rather hard to break the cycle .. which I guess I do. Its kind of amusing to watch other people trying to figaure me out, but in the end, I think that the non-boy coders get the better deal, cause theres just something special and different about us :).

My middle son is like that, and very sensitive. I always tried to support and encourage him to be himself, but society got the better of him - he fights it every step of the way and he's the one that can turn very explosive. I'm upset about that because when he was younger, he was so sweet. He still is now but I don't like the part of his personality that tries to cover that up.

Yes - guys with your type of personality are special and different and it's not right for anyone to assume that they're gay. And so what if they are? Some of the most special and admired people in my life are gay. I actually wondered when my son was in his adolescent years if this was an issue for him. He never brought it up and it doesn't seem to be the case now, but I would not have had a problem with it. His father, on the other hand, would.

I admire you for having the strength to be yourself:)

[shnen]

I just want to thank everyone for sharing... :) it takes a lot to do that. :)

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
Hey do sheep count? I am a sheep the family black sheep I am the one my family warns others about! Eat your peas or you will become just like your cousin.:eek: Sad thing is it's true oh well I think there are worse things out there.

Yes, everything counts! Everyone has something great to contribute! There is so much to talk about here! Shnen's right, it does take courage to share and I appreciate it that everyone is doing that.

[manstranger]

Originally posted by Yvonne Thomas
Hey do sheep count? I am a sheep the family black sheep I am the one my family warns others about! Eat your peas or you will become just like your cousin.:eek: Sad thing is it's true oh well I think there are worse things out there.

For shame! Not eating your peas!

[Yvonne Belisle]

Actually I like peas it's those carrots I can't stand! I like spinach too :)

[Flar's Freyja]

I've been forcing myself to eat brussels sprouts lately :ack:

Back on topic, for myself, I was pushed to be a perfect little girl, don't get dirty, don't raise your voice, etc. I was the oldest and also pushed to be an overachiever, more like a boy would be. I know that it was because my mother wanted more for me than she had opportunities to achieve, but it resulted in my feeling like I was never good enough and led to several years of alcohol and drug abuse and an eating disorder. My parents didn't have a good marriage and separated frequently, so I was left to raise my younger siblings while my mother worked nights. When she was home, all she did was bitch at me about how I wasn't doing that right either. I was twelve at the time. I left home one week after graduation and lived on my own for a few years before getting into the marriage from hell for 12 years, ending up with three sons to raise on my own. Too much responsibility was forced on me growing up, but it worked for me when I ended up having to be mom and dad both to my kids. As a result, I have a lot of more masculine traits because I had to be tough to face a lot of obstacles. I'm independent and value this in myself, but it's a turnoff to a lot of men because I don't need anyone to take care of me. I've done it for myself too long and I have a difficult time accepting help when someone offers.

[Margie]

Freyja,

What alot of responsabilites to be put on you. That had to be hard but you are a stronger person for it and that's wonderful. Alot of people might have ended up weaker because of it.

I just wasn't allowed to do anything having to do with boys. In 6th grade I got in trouble because a boy called about homework. It wasn't until high school that I could even go places with friends let alone boys. Then I was always accused of having sex, even though I didn't until I was 18. The whole while I was being accused of having sex, noone ever talked to me about birth control and I ended up pregnant at 19. Blah.

[Flar's Freyja]

8O Those were the hormonal rantings of a woman about to hit her 46th birthday.....When I started this thread, I was only thinking of the effects of child rearing and socialization on males, and didn't realize that it also impacts females. My parents started off raising me with feminine influences but I realized that lots of masculine influences were actually imposed on me by an overload of responsibility at a young age. I'd not thought about it before. The only real encouragement I received was to be strong and stand on my own two feet, and it has served me well. I don't think I could have raised my sons if I hadn't been. :T Sometimes they haven't told me things because "You'll do something about it." My response to problems has often been "Do I have to call somebody?"

Thanks for sharing your story, Margie. It's very typical for overprotective parents to have that backfire on them. When kids aren't allowed to make their own choices and decisions - what happens is that they don't know how to - and end up with pregnancies and other problems at an early age. Lots of people thought I was too easy with my kids. They've all been pretty responsible as teenagers, well, except for the Gemini...............

[Old Witch]

Thats really interesting, Freya, because I was an only child I grew up having lots of dolls and tea sets from my mother and learning to fix a car and to ride a Harley from my Dad........He got rid of the Harley when I rode up on it when I was 13......:( .......Ken says I think more like a man than a woman..........and truly, I guess I do..........:cool:

[Flar's Freyja]

I think that's great that you had both sides from both parents! My dad just didn't spend any time with us teaching us anything. Mom taught us about housework and all the feminine drudgery. I do remember her putting a starter in a car by herself, once, that was pretty awesome! Maybe having a bit more of an understanding of male stuff enhances our skills in raising sons. My boys have some adventures with mom to tell about - like when I pulled a trailer from New York to Oklahoma with everything we owned......we looked like the Beverly Hillbillies.....

[Old Witch]

Yeah, but that taught them that you were competent and could be counted on!

[Flar's Freyja]

'Cept when it came to backing the thing up.......I went to return it and all the guys at U-Haul stayed inside laughing at me.........

[Man/Wolf]

I was raised in the fifties and early sixties. From the time I can first remember, I was taught the basic boy stuff. Be tough, be stoic, don't show your feelings, especially your anger and your pain. Emotional stuff is for girls and sissies.
Play baseball, football, go hunting with dad, work around the house, but not in the house.
Respect girls, good girls don't, get all you can but not from good girls.
Protect your mother and your sisters. You don't like it, too bad. Do it your way when you're the man of the house.
I know it's condensed, but it took me a long time to shed all that bullshit and I don't wish to dwell on it. I just wanted to give you an idea of what it was like. I didn't even go into the race and gender bias. That was pretty bad, too. I know my dad did what he thought was right and what was taught to him. But somewhere we have to stop and think for ourselves and ask ourselves the pointed questions that need to be asked. Is it right just because it has always been that way? the answer is usually no if we are honest with ourselves.
I changed because I wanted to. I changed before there were laws saying I had to. I changed because I didn't want my son and daughter to be as f***ed up as I was and am to some degree. I wanted my son to tell me if he was angry with me or if I had hurt him. I wanted my daughter to feel that she could come to me with problems, not just to her mother. I wanted to be able to express my feelings and emotions and to teach my son to do the same thing. I used to be embarrassed at movies when something sad happened and I cried. Not anymore, I let it all hang out. I guess that's enough of that!

[Flar's Freyja]

Wow, I appreciate your sharing that. I've noticed that lots of men have NEVER shed those attitudes, and I admire you for being conscious enough to break through that, especially for the sake of your own kids. Sounds like you have a very open mind and enough flexibility to do what you need to for others' benefit. Thanks.

[Danustouch]

I don't think I was socialized, really. I loved playing with dolls, but then, I liked it when my dad took me to baseball games, or to go fishing, too. This didn't happen often, because I was a sickly kid, so most of my activities had to be indoor "calm" activities. Perhaps that's why the emphasis was more on "Dolls" and more traditionally feminine pass-times. When I did get to go outdoors to play, i made the most of it. Was every bit as much of a mudpie maker as my brother, enjoyed playing "war games" and climbing trees. Actually, if I think anyone socialized me, it was my neighbor, who looked just like "Mame" from "Gone with the Wind". She'd look out the window, and there I'd be climbing a tree, and she'd yell.."Ummmmm..Chile! Why you gonna go skin up those pretty knee's for? You get down outta that tree, and act like a lady, now, Hear?". Funny the things that get stuck in your head. Now..whenever I scrape my knee, I still hear her voice ringing in my ears telling me how proper young ladies don't get cuts and scrapes. :rolleyes:

The only other "Socialization" thing I can really think of, is that the household chores growing up, were devided with a gender bias I think. I had to set the table, pour the drinks, dry the dishes, fold laundry..stuff like that...while my brother had to mow the lawn (my allergies would have been to bad for that anyway), Clean the Cellar, Empty the Garbage, and other more "manly" chores. Oh..and of course the all famous.."Sit like a lady". But..come now...that's practical too, if a girl is wearing a dress..no? ;)

[Faery-Wings]

I have been reading over it since it was started. It has given me a bunch to think about.

My family is Old School Italian. My brother and I had very different expectations placed upon as as we grew up. However, rebel in my heart, I hated most of these types of attitudes and swore thatI would not raise my children in the same manner. I remember my son being only a few months old, on the floor for "Tummy Time" and me folding laundry nest to him, telling him all about how to do it LOL!:p

My kids are still young, my son is almost 6 and my daughter is 3 1/2. And I have tried to raise them as gender equally as possible. I don't have any problems with my son playing with dolls or my daughter playing army. Now my son's personality is a mellow, sensitive type. Artistic, not athletic. My daughter is a ball buster. Really! She is. And I feel sorry for the guys she dates/marries. (well, not too sorry- she will keep them in their place!)

But this is where the problem for my has been happening...now they have so much more outside influence. Freyja and manstranger hit on this too. My son is in kdg and some of his friends are being socilaized in a different way. Fine for them, just hard for me to see my "sensitive" son becoming more violent as he sees his friends play that way. I don't want to make my son into a sissy. But at the same time, I want him to know that violent tough guy attitudes are not acceptable in my house.

My question to you all is "Where do you draw the line?" I feel like I am developing two sets of rules. One for inside the house, where I hope that he is caring and sensitive and open to his feelings, and one for outside of the house, where I want him to be a tough guy, so he doesn't get picked on and feels like he "fits in."

*shakes head* This converstaion has come at a particularly sensitive time. My son's violence is increasing. Other parents tell me "he is just being a boy." BTW, I should say, my standards of "violence" are pretty strict- He pretended to stab his sister with a pretend Army knife and I lost it. He is not actually hurting anyone or anything, just the suggestion of it. And I do talk to him, all the time, about how we treat people and animals. So maybe he is "just being a boy." But I still don't find that as an acceptable excuse.

Whew, I am rambling here. Hope I didn't confuse anybody as I think I confuse myself. :)

I would appreciate any thoughts from you.

Chris

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by chryssi1
My question to you all is "Where do you draw the line?" I feel like I am developing two sets of rules. One for inside the house, where I hope that he is caring and sensitive and open to his feelings, and one for outside of the house, where I want him to be a tough guy, so he doesn't get picked on and feels like he "fits in."

*shakes head* This converstaion has come at a particularly sensitive time. My son's violence is increasing. Other parents tell me "he is just being a boy." BTW, I should say, my standards of "violence" are pretty strict- He pretended to stab his sister with a pretend Army knife and I lost it. He is not actually hurting anyone or anything, just the suggestion of it. And I do talk to him, all the time, about how we treat people and animals. So maybe he is "just being a boy." But I still don't find that as an acceptable excuse.

Whew, I am rambling here. Hope I didn't confuse anybody as I think I confuse myself. :)

I would appreciate any thoughts from you.

Chris

I brought that point up in the workshop. No matter what I did at home to try to raise my boys to not handle things with aggression, etc., they were encouraged to do so by individuals outside of the home, including their father. Even if you're careful about the television programs and movies they watch, they are still picking this up just about everywhere. The best answer I got was that we need to educate others, but I'm not sure how. Confronting them, maybe, when we know what the source is. I know that I got into it with my ex-husband a few times for encouraging them to fight. And another sensitive issue is that you want them to be able to stand up for themselves but you don't want them to fight, and it seems in some of their social situations they don't have a choice.

I don't like the response "he's just being a boy" either and don't accept it as an excuse. It's more difficult to deal with these issues through certain developmental stages also. It seemed to get a bit easier when my boys reached the age of 14 or so, when they had more reasoning ability. Recently, my youngest, who is the most easygoing guy you'd ever want to meet, ended up in a fight at a party because one of his friends was being beat up and he felt he had no choice but to help. Even though he said his friend had asked for it :T

Might be that we have no choice but to do the best we can as parents and hope that it leaves its impression. I think that's true, because after all the struggle and difficult years, my sons turned out pretty well.

[Flaire]

That's a good point.. I was talking to one of the people we used to live around yesterday and her son had to get out of the high school becuase of all the taunting and such that goes around... He's a real tough kid~ I grew up with him...scared the crap out of me, but anyways.. He was just a bit different than the rest of the people there...Couldn't fit in, whatever.. I don't think he really let out the tough-guy side of him there, or else he'd have been fine.

On the other side, though.. My brother still goes to the high school..where he does as well as a 16-yr old boy who's rebelling againsed everything ma taught him goes. He's a tough cookie, I have to say.. It's the way to survive in that hell-hole of a high school (seriously....that place is a mess!)...and you either have to be tough to not get picked on... or be a no-body and get picked on..even in the halls..getting pushed around...taunted, etc. (My bro's over 6 ft..so I'm not sure if his height advantage adds anything to the equation)

And although, my bro does express this tough-boy attitude outside of the house, we try to make sure that he doesn't bring it back home. Mom's very conscious of it, and I think he's doing a pretty good job of keeping it outside..at school...wherever he takes it.

[clef0628]

I kind broke the code on my own. I was never good at sports. So, I was teased by the boys. My Mom listened and told me to be tough and tease back. But, I could not it was not in my heart. I end up playing with the girls. Until, I reach college, I had always had more female friends then male. In college I was able to find other males that broke the code. I think I turned out good in life. Though, I am single now. But, I have a good job, a house, car and friends and I'm a Male Witch. I know there are less Male Witches out there then female but, it does not get to me. I have been and still am the peacemaker of the family. I don't like to me the tough guy. And I think I'm better of this way.

Steven

[Faery-Wings]

Might be that we have no choice but to do the best we can as parents and hope that it leaves its impression. I think that's true, because after all the struggle and difficult years, my sons turned out pretty well.

It sounds like they did. :) From other parents I have talked to, they seem to feel the same. Our job is to lay the groundwork, and values, and hopefully as they grow older, they will use them as they make decisions.

In college I was able to find other males that broke the code. I think I turned out good in life.

That is great cleft! Did you feel that you parents encouraged you to be who you are and built your self esteem? Or did you always feel like you were going against the norm? Do you have any advice for a mom who might be going through this with her son? Sorry for all the questions! :D

[clef0628]

I did always fell like a was against the normal way guys did. I hated it when I was compared to normal guys. But, you need to look at the good things. Like in high school when the tough guys went out with their one girlfriend, they looked at me, who was still good friends with most the girls in school walking home with two or three girls! ;) The one girl, my high school sweetheart told me was was honored that I picked her over the other girls, I was friends with. I could not play sports so I took band and one the we won awards we were cheared as much as the sports groups. There was an on going joke that the marching band marched more yards on the frield then the football team! We had a real bad football team.
I'd warn you too just to be there for them. Beacuse, I was not tough, my feeling could get hurt easy, and it was always good to come home and get a hug from my Mom. Sometimes, trying to be a man I won't not tell her why, I'd just hold her. I did that a lot to with my girlfriends, we were all big into hugging!

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by clef0628
I'd warn you too just to be there for them. Beacuse, I was not tough, my feeling could get hurt easy, and it was always good to come home and get a hug from my Mom. Sometimes, trying to be a man I won't not tell her why, I'd just hold her. I did that a lot to with my girlfriends, we were all big into hugging!

This was another thing that came up in the workshop. Guys don't generally talk about their feelings, at least not right away. It was suggested to wait a while and not push, and that your son will talk to you when he's ready. I've found this to be true. I can always sense when something is going on with my youngest, and I'll ask him. Most of the time, what I get is a growling "Leave me alone!" but after he's chilled out a bit, he'll talk. I just let him know that I am here and that I'll listen when he's ready. Helps that I have professional training and skills to get people to talk! The first time that I accidentally caught him crying as a teenager, I just told him that it was okay and left him alone. That particular incident was in regard to his ending a visit with his older brother, who he only gets to see once a year, and as much as I hated to see him cry it warmed my heart that they love each other so much. And I told him so. I think I mentioned this in a previous post - it's also suggested that parents drop all distractions and let your son know that you are available.

You also bring up another issue - seems like you have a lot of female friends because of your ability to be in touch with your more feminine qualities and really be a friend. Has this caused you conflict with the other guys, are they jealous?

[clef0628]

I guess the other boys could have been jealous, but I think not. Most the girls I was friends with her normal looking. They were great people at heart and that is all I cared about. Most of the tough guys go after the real hot girls. Who may or may not have been good people. Mostly guys tease about hanging around ugly girls. Funny, I thought they were cute. And you know what in time like most people they became hot. When I ran into my old high school sweatheart a few years back (We went to different colleges and lost touch) I was surpise at how hot she looked now, she just came out later in life.
As for bringing out my feminine qualities, ya it does. Let's see my favorite anime are Salior Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, and Magic Knight Rayearth, witch are usally girl's shows. But, I'm still a boy at heart. I do enjoy going to football and baseball games. I can't play. But, I'm a great fan!
Most of my male friends are close to being married now so, jealous really is not a problem.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Originally posted by clef0628
Like in high school when the tough guys went out with their one girlfriend, they looked at me, who was still good friends with most the girls in school walking home with two or three girls! ;)
Well, now most guys like that are the gay ones. And everyone just kind of assumes that he's into guys. ;) And it's not like you were gettin' any from the 2 or 3 girls, which is what the football player wanted.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by clef0628
I guess the other boys could have been jealous, but I think not. Most the girls I was friends with her normal looking. They were great people at heart and that is all I cared about. Most of the tough guys go after the real hot girls. Who may or may not have been good people. Mostly guys tease about hanging around ugly girls. Funny, I thought they were cute. And you know what in time like most people they became hot. When I ran into my old high school sweatheart a few years back (We went to different colleges and lost touch) I was surpise at how hot she looked now, she just came out later in life.

So true. Lots of the girls who were the prettiest in my high school did not age well. Seems that the girls who were plain then ended up being the most beautiful. Sounds like you are someone who is a wonderful partner in relationships.

[clef0628]

True, I didn't get it from any of the girls. But, is was nice just being with them. There is a lot more to a relationship then sex. I guess I'd be good in a relationship. I have been single now for a while. Mostly beacuse I don't know how to get out and meet new people. Never like the bar crowd either. Oh, well.

[Flaire]

I guess the other boys could have been jealous

:lol: I used to be friends with a ton of guys.. (I was a real tom boy way back when) and most of the girls in my class were kinda jealous of how I could spend time will the guys, and just totally fit in somehow. I still do think that I have quite a few male friends, although I have gained more female ones since I moved here... Most of the guys in my grade are jocks, where as I am not (anymore). I do play soccer and what not for fun - with my friends... A few months ago, it was just me and the guys playing cuz none of the other girls wanted to play; same thing last summer. I, and my friend Jess, were the only girls who played football with the guys. It's great, b/c it offers much more of a challenge sportwise. (I'm really competitive)

But back to what my point was. ( :lol: ) I think some of their qualities ended up rubbing off on me.. I don't think I was always as competitive as I am now. I don't think that just parents qualities rub off on children, I think a lot of it comes from friends as well. :)

[shnen]

I had only a few good female friends in highschool (still have them;)) and the rest were guys. They were like brothers to me. I found women to be too malicious and petty. Guys, you could burp and they would laugh with you...:)

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Flaire


:lol: But back to what my point was. ( :lol: ) I think some of their qualities ended up rubbing off on me.. I don't think I was always as competitive as I am now. I don't think that just parents qualities rub off on children, I think a lot of it comes from friends as well. :)

Exactly, it's a combination of the two and the socialization that we engage in with peers is just as important. I believe that it was Man/Wolf who said that he had to change his views about what he was taught at home because he wanted his children to grow up with a different viewpoint. I also think it's the questions that come up through this process for kids in their adolescent and teenage years are what causes some conflict between parents and children. Ideally, the basic ideas passed on in the home are good ones and the ones that are learned from the peer group can complement them.

Clef, the fact that you are in touch with both the male and female aspects of your makeup is what can make you an excellent partner in a relationship and I'm sure that some lucky girl is just out there waiting for you to find her!

Shnen, the same goes for you. While a lot of guys still value the feminine, many of them also appreciate a girl who can be "one of the guys" at times. I also feel that I relate well to guys and I probably have more male friends than female. I've found women to be petty and malicious, especially in my circle of friends where I am single and most of them are attached. I've been the subject of some subtle backstabbing because they feel threatened by my single status. I think we call this "catty"? :lol: Hadn't considered this before you said that, but men really aren't that way, are they?

[shnen]

its funny becasue women always pride them selves on "not duking it out" or fighting...
Women pride ourselves on communication and working things out, eventually.
Men on the other hand, throw a few fists then have a beer together... which is better, I don't know. But I also know that I was the glue in my little circle of male frinds in highschool, I would force them to talk about certain issues... once I moved away for college, within a month, they all had huge fights and none of them have spoken to one another since.
I like that i can be one of the guys, don't treat me like a wimp, or like I am delicate... but just treat me with respect. Or else I will get them back... :)

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by shnen
its funny becasue women always pride them selves on "not duking it out" or fighting...
Women pride ourselves on communication and working things out, eventually.
Men on the other hand, throw a few fists then have a beer together... which is better, I don't know. But I also know that I was the glue in my little circle of male frinds in highschool, I would force them to talk about certain issues... once I moved away for college, within a month, they all had huge fights and none of them have spoken to one another since.
I like that i can be one of the guys, don't treat me like a wimp, or like I am delicate... but just treat me with respect. Or else I will get them back... :)

The social stuff going on in my son's senior year was horrible and both the guys and girls were involved. My son's girlfriend should have been homecoming queen, she had spent years of her own money and time doing tons of extracurricular work for the football team. One of the guys liked a girl who hadn't been involved at all and was able to get her voted in. And some of the guys were jealous of my son - he's an outstanding athlete and had just won the regional powerlifting title - the girls made him a T-shirt that said "The Bod." They were still senior attendants, but both of them were honor students besides and should have been King and Queen. The whole thing was very hurtful and I was proud of the way Sara handled it. There was quite a mess going on between the two sides. But they did get through it and have continued to be tight after graduation.

My guy friends do treat me with a lot of respect and I appreciate that. I also find that they want to run to my rescue and while that's very sweet, I'm not always comfortable accepting help because somewhere along the line I developed the attitude that I really need to do everything on my own......

[shnen]

I'm glad to hear that your son and Sara could react with more maturity then what the others involved did... Kudos to him and Sara! :D

My guy friends are always trying to baby me, but I won't let them. They know when I am super amazingly desparate I will ask, until then I will be stubborn and keep going, it's how I had to be growing up...:) It might not always be right, but what can you do? And they always treat me with respect, just as I do them too.


The guys I work with are great, but sometimes I have to give them a nudge to remind them there is a line.. then they behave again.:)

[Flar's Freyja]

:T And it's a fine line sometimes.....had a friend who I thought was kidding and turned out he was serious, what a mess!

I have a history of picking dysfunctional men in relationships and it's been hard to get past that and actually like them! Took a while to get to a point where I love and appreciate their qualities and find them rather endearing. I can male-bash as well as the rest of them, but I really do like men. It probably comes from raising three boys and really getting to know how special they are.

[shnen]

I am indifferent... (lets go getting ourselves into trouble now...)
I have a vary hard time trusting them, as far as relationships go.. friends, they have to win me over.

I generally trust them, but I always have this nagging inside me not to trust.. or to run.. which, in the past has been in my benefit.

[Flar's Freyja]

Had a supervisor friend at my last job who always said "Trust No Man," but he meant both men and women. :( I know, I have trust issues too and always on my guard. I think trying to dissolve that is harder than quitting smoking;)

[shnen]

yeah, well, they are both mental, but trust is a matter of the heart too, your spiritual heart... smoking - check... trust - trusting the Goddess:)

[Flar's Freyja]

They are both mental, spiritual and emotional issues.....we could really get into a discussion as to how all that relates to other people outside of the relationships but that's another thread! Or is it? Some of the things we were talking about with peer group socialization definitely apply.

[Earthcup]

My brother had it worst from my grandfather. Nothing my brother or uncles did was ever right. My dad was pretty cool but he took my brother on road trips and hunting and I stayed at home more often than not. Just the way he was raised I guess. He had a harder time than I did though.

My grandfather had grown up on a farm and expected my dad to be very "manly". Dad liked hunting and guns ok but he was best at math, drawing and music. He was the lead clarinet player in high school but they moved from the city and the band at his new school was pathetic. I don't think he ever played again.

He could be hard on my brother and I sometimes in a suck it up and just get the job done way. He wanted me to play softball and it was the two worst years of my life. It meant a lot to him but it was torture for me. I don't like baseball and softball and couldn't make sense of the rules, plus I sucked at it. It took a lot just to keep from bursting into tears on the field sometimes.

I think my mom was worse overall though. She has a violent temper yet she abhors violence in others. I stayed in my room and read mostly through my awkward period to keep from fighting with her. My brother is much more confrontational. I don't think he's a violent person naturally but he reacts and imitates her. I think he's slowly coming around though.

One of my sisters was very manipulative as a child and my parents never did anything about it. They allowed her to play one side against the other and now that's a way of life for her. It's kind of sad. She's never lived alone and can't have a simple conversation without trying to manipulate someone. She avoids me because I don't play games and won't take her crap. It's really sad.

Back to topic... lol I think a lot of it is enviroment but genetics plays a big role too. I tend to think of myself as androgynous and I don't think that gender-wise either parent had a big influence on me. Books did, especially the Bible, but I sort of figured out gender roles and how they fit me on my own...

[Flaire]

Originally posted by shnen
I had only a few good female friends in highschool (still have them;)) and the rest were guys. They were like brothers to me. I found women to be too malicious and petty. Guys, you could burp and they would laugh with you...:)
its funny becasue women always pride them selves on "not duking it out" or fighting...
Women pride ourselves on communication and working things out, eventually.
Men on the other hand, throw a few fists then have a beer together... which is better, I don't know. But I also know that I was the glue in my little circle of male frinds in highschool, I would force them to talk about certain issues... once I moved away for college, within a month, they all had huge fights and none of them have spoken to one another since.
I like that i can be one of the guys, don't treat me like a wimp, or like I am delicate... but just treat me with respect. Or else I will get them back...

I thought these two went together well. :)

Back to another little story from Flaire. :p (Sorry, but it's the best way for me to relate to these kindsa things)

Most of my friends graduated last year...We were one big circle~ a million girls..one guy, but that's not really the important part. They decided that for dry grad, they were going to paint this sign with a picture of all of them on it (it looked wonderful when they finished), and they would enter it in the Dry Grad sign contest. If they won, they were going to either a. split the money between them...or b. Give it to one of the teachers who's son was sick in a Vancouver hospital. So anyway, they *did* in fact win the contest, and I guess they had a vote to see what they were going to do with the money.. It turned out they spit it equally, even though the "boss' of the group still wanted to donate all of it to the teacher.. So she, and another friend had a big spat about it, and by the end of the school year, they were still not talking to each other. I hated to see the group get together...and be split apart by everyone taking someone else's side....Where as I was stuck in the middle, not really knowing what in the world was going on.

But another thing is...Women tend to backstab each other like you wouldn't believe if you didn't know what was going on. I watched that fly around earlier last year too... Another friend was griping about Sheri, ( the "boss"). I felt that she needed to know what Dana was saying about her....so I told her, not knowing that they would end up in one giant fight that lasted a few months until they finally got together, with myself and another (level-headed) friend to moderate the discussion and they ended up working it out...Thank goddess..That was nasty... But I have to say...Dana always has a problem with someone in the circle that Sheri and I are in. As of now, she's after another friend...And trying to get her kicked out of the church they both go to..Because Dana thinks the other girl doesn't like her..(And N has good reason to...;))

Just to finish this off.... I have to say..I'd rather solve problems like guys are supposed to..:p So much less behind other ppl's backs and so on and so forth. :)

[Dancin Girl]

Wow!!! I know I am really late into this discussion... have now sat down and read entire thread, this is fantastic and so interesting! How could I have missed it earlier?

Anyway, here is a little of my perspective and thoughts on it even though of course I am not a male. I was raised in a family of women, somewhat strong overbearing, overpowering women... they had tough lives and survived how they could. I was the youngest in the family... babied, overprotected, but had high expectations put on me to succeed and get the hell out of the whole mess... which I did for a while, but ended up coming back to play peace maker, care taker for everyone. My Dad, having no sons, kind of expected us to fullfill both daughter and son roles... took us hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, made us do outside chores, tried to get us to do mechanical things like the car stuff and carpentry with him.... but also expected us to clean up nice and pretty when we needed to, to cook, clean and help Mom take care of the house. He ended up with one total wuss who could not do any of those things- my oldest sister. My next sister was the tom boy all her life and still is pretty much. And, I tried to be and do all and any of those things to make Daddy happy!!

Took years to figure out what I wanted and liked not what Daddy wanted me to. Hated the hunting, and am not mechanical by any means though I try!!

When I started raising my two kids... got one each... I really had no clue as to what I was doing, went purely on instinct as to what was right or wrong... took a lot of classes on parenting, on on teaching children, spent years as a pre-school teacher and I pretty much realized that my instincts were still the best guideline to follow. I took my children's distinctly different personalities into account when raising them didn't take gender into much account, land tried to key into their inner personalities when making decisions and helping them.

My son is a super quiet, very sensitive soul who the slightest wrong word will tear him apart. He has always been a very non-violent person and yes, he got picked on terribly at school. In fact, school was a trial and trauma for him ever day, it was an ordeal for him to get through each and every day. He finally found an outlet in skateboarding and music. Those two things helped him immensely to overcome all the difficulties and I encouraged all of it. My daughter on the other hand was independant, vocal, volotile from day 1!!

[Dancin Girl]

Wanted to put this in two seperate posts so it wouldn't be quite so long....

When I was teaching pre-school, I took a number of classes and seminars on breaking the boy code, creating gender equal environments, encouraging and promoting the whole inner spirit rather than the gender... But, through all of those classes, and theories, there was still always the huge debate on genetics/environment...... I have seen from experience that you can take away all of the so called gender specific toys, all of the violent toys.... and children's natural tendancies will still take over.... given no dolls to play with, I have observed girls and boys both on occasion wrap a wooden block in a towel and cuddle it, pretend it's a baby. They will then also turn around and use same blocks as weapons, have an all out mock war with each other... and the girls can be more violent than the boys!!! The boys will physically take out their agressions... be upfront about the rules of the game most of the time... the girls as young as three will plot and scheme, make new rules as they go along while the boys become confused, puzzled, frustrated with the game and the girls just answer, "No, we're doin it this way now" and then expect the boys to follow along.

[Flar's Freyja]

:T I can't believe this has had 70 replies! In my career and personal life I have also seen some of the toughest males have the most beautiful nurturing skills when they have a child of their own - possibly both male and female qualities are in all of us and whether they come to fruition depends on the environment.

[Dancin Girl]

:) Of course those traits are within every child to start with!! And, environment plays such a key role in how those traits come out!! One of the saddest but sweetest moments and sights I ever witnessed were with a tough as nails little boy in my class, whose parents insisted that he be the macho ist little guy there was.... No dolls or sissy stuff for him!! His Father's most often repeated "proud" words were "Yep, that's my guy, he's all boy!" When he came into the class, he was rough, tough, and a bully to everyone around.... the parent's responses to concerns were always that he was just bein a normal little boy!! Well, over the months in class, this little boy developed a fascination and fondness for the house area, the dolls in particular.. he would immediately go there, pick up a baby and cart that baby around preciously all morning, every morning!!! I could not get him to part with the doll even for other activities.... I didn't try too hard either though and he found ways to keep baby with him or make sure it was within his sight and being taken care of all of the time. If he had to do something where he couldn't hold the baby, he would ask other children to watch it... but only if they promised to take good care of it.

One day I talked to him about the baby, how he learned to take such good care of it, and if he had babies to take care of at home... I was so positive that he most likely didn't, and that this was not going to be something that the parents were going to want to hear my praises about at an upcoming conferance.... he looked up at me, cried and told me that was how Mommies took care of babies, that he wanted to be a Mommy when he grew up and not a Daddy because Daddies didn't get to take care of babies. He talked all about his baby sister that lived with his other Mommy, and how he much he loved staying there and helping take care of the baby. He told me that he had asked Santa for a baby but he knew Santa wouldn't bring a baby doll to a boy.

I had a really tough time at that parent conferance!! Was sure that nothing I had said sank in to the parents and felt so bad for this little guy..... All through the conferance, the Dad looked like he was going to explode at the whole idea of his boy playing with dolls... the Mom(actually Step Mom) did mention that wasn't that kind of sweet and how he really was such a good kid.... Welllll after conferances, we had Christmas vacation and I was wondering how bad he would feel when Santa didn't bring him his doll.....But, to my amazement, when he came back, he had something stuffed into his backpack for sharing time.....When it was his turn, he stood up beaming and pulled out the cutest baby boy doll I had ever seen!!! Then he proceeded to tell us the story of how his Mommy Patty had a huge fight with his Daddy, banged Daddy over the head had a tug of war with Daddy over the baby, how baby had almost lost an arm in the fight but Mommy Patty sewed it back on and Daddy slept in the truck for a whole week..... he tried to tell us more but I managed to hush him :D He finished by saying that Mommy Patty was gettin him his own real baby to have at their house all the time and she told him he could teach Daddy how to be a better Daddy and how to take care of babies!!!!

A few years later, I had the baby in my class.... another boy... but the change in the family was awesome!!! this little boy brought the same doll to school with him on the first day of school, Dad brought them in, looked at me sheepishly and said, "I know you won't even think of tryin to take the doll away, will you?" Then he laughed and said too that the doll had become a security blanket for this shy introverted little brother who was forlorn and lost without big brother with him.

Moral of story?? Yes, the boy code can be broken and bent, and even the most macho of men can break it!!!

[Flar's Freyja]

That is an amazing story......and you had such a positive influence on that family.

I did a brief practicum in a day care center for the disabled, and I was appalled when one of the female teachers had a problem with one of the little boys playing with a purse! And this wasn't even a "feminine" thing ~ at that stage of development, kids like to play with things that they can put stuff in and tote around......

I can't remember the details, was a long time ago, but I do know that I straightened her out.........

[Flaire]

Like Bobby from King of the Hill...:rolleyes: Taking a women's self defense course & yelling "Let go of my purse" :T

Okay, OT me... :)

[*~*Chary*~*]

hahahaahahahaha

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Flaire
Like Bobby from King of the Hill...:rolleyes: Taking a women's self defense course & yelling "Let go of my purse" :T

Okay, OT me... :)

:T

OT! :smash:

[Flar's Freyja]

Bump

[PLHH]

Real Boys by William Pollack, Ph.D.

"Rescuing our sons from the myths of boyhood."
"Based on William Pollack's groundbreaking research at Harvard Medical School for more than two decades, Real Boys explores this generation's "silent crisis": why so many boys are sad, lonely, and confused although they may appear tough, cheerful and comfident. Pollack challenges conventioal expectations about manhood and masculinity that encourage parents to treat boys as little men, raising them through a toughening process that drives their true emotions underground. Only when we understand what boys are really experiencing, says Pollack, can parents and teachers help them develop more self-confidence and the emotinoal savvy they need to deal with issues such as depression and violence, drugs, alcohol, sexuality and love."

I got my copy from www.bamm.com

It was HIGHLY recommended to me by a wonderful mama I know that practices natural parenting and NVC.

(NVC= Non Violent Communication....another wonderful book I'd highly recommend!)

[SagaDraco]

Sturdy Oak - strong, silent, stoic, stable, reserved

Give 'Em Hell - intimidating, John Wayne type, aggression

Big Wheel - successful, powerful, dominant, avoiding shame, pushing to prove worth

No Sissy Stuff - emphasis on masculine behavior

Excellent ideas to live by. The feminizing of boys has gone on too long, both in schools, and in families where they are raised by a single mother. Boys need to explore, fight, and be strong, because we are designed to be agrressive in order to acquire what we will need as men(money, women, housing etc.). Males with healthy(emphasis there) aggression will make the best fathers as well, as they will take a serious interest in the well-being of their children. To me, being a man has meant the following things; being responsible for what you do, being strong physically and mentally, never letting yourself be walked on, and being a good protector and provider. These roles are natural and enjoyable to me. I am masculine, but not macho, as those types are frankly very annoying. To this day I enjoy gardening, which is my nurturing outlet I guess. Something very satisfying about dirt and sweat on me and planting things so that they may grow.

[manstranger]

Males with healthy(emphasis there) aggression will make the best fathers as well, as they will take a serious interest in the well-being of their children.

Prove it? So males with an unhealthy agression or no agression care either too little or too much (yeah, that's possible) about their kids? I think that's bull. You have no backing for that statement. It's a matter of opinion. It's probably the most unscientific half-hypothesis that i've ever heard. No, being aggressive does NOT make you care for your children, even if you have a "healthy" ammount of agression. I don't think that how aggressive you are has anything to do with how much you care for your kids at all (emphasis there). You care for your kids out of love for them. You take a serious interest in their well-being because you choose to. You're not genetically pre-disposed to care for them. At all. (maybe there should be emphasis there?)

Boys need to explore, fight, and be strong, because we are designed to be agrressive in order to acquire what we will need as men(money, women, housing etc.).

Money is deffinatly a human concept. All humans need shelter. I could aruge that because women have better vision, they are the ones that are supposed to find it. Boys do not need to fight. Why would they, exactly? Please, do share. Men also do not need women. I'm doing fine without them. I'm doing fine without other men. I'm just doing fine.

http://www.observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,792086,00.html is an interesting story about how the Y chromosome is deteriorating. Women don't need men in order for the human race to survive. Women are made to make babies. If they don't need men to do it, they don't need men at all. The human race needs reproduction to survive. Who we need to make babies is a different story (we need women. we don't need men).

That role that you described is unnecessary. That statement has gone too long without being said, not the one about the "feminising of boys", which is mostly based on their enviroment.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by SagaDraco
Sturdy Oak - strong, silent, stoic, stable, reserved

Give 'Em Hell - intimidating, John Wayne type, aggression

Big Wheel - successful, powerful, dominant, avoiding shame, pushing to prove worth

No Sissy Stuff - emphasis on masculine behavior

Excellent ideas to live by. The feminizing of boys has gone on too long, both in schools, and in families where they are raised by a single mother. Boys need to explore, fight, and be strong, because we are designed to be agrressive in order to acquire what we will need as men(money, women, housing etc.). Males with healthy(emphasis there) aggression will make the best fathers as well, as they will take a serious interest in the well-being of their children. To me, being a man has meant the following things; being responsible for what you do, being strong physically and mentally, never letting yourself be walked on, and being a good protector and provider. These roles are natural and enjoyable to me. I am masculine, but not macho, as those types are frankly very annoying. To this day I enjoy gardening, which is my nurturing outlet I guess. Something very satisfying about dirt and sweat on me and planting things so that they may grow.

Interesting post. Hate to tell you but I raised my son through his teen years as a single mother--and his father is not an agressive person either. My son ended up as competitive, strong-willed, responsible, and willing to take risks but hardly intimidating nor aggressive. So did my daughter. Since you seem to see these characteristics as 'masculine' are you saying that 'feminine' women exhibit the opposite of "being responsible for what you do, being strong physically and mentally, never letting yourself be walked on, and being a good protector and provider"? Not what I taught my daughter............

Maggie

[Faery-Wings]

Originally posted by SagaDraco
Sturdy Oak - strong, silent, stoic, stable, reserved

Give 'Em Hell - intimidating, John Wayne type, aggression

Big Wheel - successful, powerful, dominant, avoiding shame, pushing to prove worth

No Sissy Stuff - emphasis on masculine behavior

Excellent ideas to live by. The feminizing of boys has gone on too long, both in schools, and in families where they are raised by a single mother. Boys need to explore, fight, and be strong, because we are designed to be agrressive in order to acquire what we will need as men(money, women, housing etc.). Males with healthy(emphasis there) aggression will make the best fathers as well, as they will take a serious interest in the well-being of their children. To me, being a man has meant the following things; being responsible for what you do, being strong physically and mentally, never letting yourself be walked on, and being a good protector and provider. These roles are natural and enjoyable to me. I am masculine, but not macho, as those types are frankly very annoying. To this day I enjoy gardening, which is my nurturing outlet I guess. Something very satisfying about dirt and sweat on me and planting things so that they may grow.

First of all, I can think of several girls that can also fit your criteria. Most people are a blend of personality traits and IMO, "masculine" (not male) traits should be encouraged in females and vice versa. And the roles you detailed- I am raising both of my children, one boy, one girl, to emulate them. I want both of them to be responsible, strong, protectors and providers. In many ways, in this day and age, I feel that the female should be even moreso a protector and provider. I can't say that I would feel comfortable raising my daughter to be passive and have her marry one of "Hell on Wheels" type guys. KWIM?

Secondly, I know many men who are all male, so to speak, yet are extremely nurturing. For example, I have one friend who coaches his son's soccer and football with the same sense of responsiblity as when he takes his daughter to a tea party. (Real story;) ) You say you enjoy gardening- that is truly a wonderful, nurturing outlet. That is admirable, especially since I can raise kids and animals but have one heck of a time with plants! :D

Third- let's make sure we keep this discussion on track and respectful- Thanks!!

[Flar's Freyja]

[i]Excellent ideas to live by. The feminizing of boys has gone on too long, both in schools, and in families where they are raised by a single mother. Boys need to explore, fight, and be strong, because we are designed to be agrressive in order to acquire what we will need as men(money, women, housing etc.). Males with healthy(emphasis there) aggression will make the best fathers as well, as they will take a serious interest in the well-being of their children. To me, being a man has meant the following things; being responsible for what you do, being strong physically and mentally, never letting yourself be walked on, and being a good protector and provider. These roles are natural and enjoyable to me. I am masculine, but not macho, as those types are frankly very annoying. To this day I enjoy gardening, which is my nurturing outlet I guess. Something very satisfying about dirt and sweat on me and planting things so that they may grow. [/B]

I think I mentioned this in an earlier post. One of the dilemmas I faced as a single mother was teaching my boys not to respond to a bully with violence, not only because of moral values and beliefs, but also because it is the means that undeducated and socially underdeveloped individuals use to solve their problems. But I also did not want them to be passive victims. They ended up engaging in a few fights and I supported them when it was appropriate. Not very long ago, my 19 year old came home with his favorite shirt torn in half and missing a pendant given to him by a special family friend because he had to jump in and kick some butts when his friend (who he said deserved it) was getting beaten up.

And as a single mother, I was forced to be protector and provider. In relationships, this has caused conflict with men who also felt they had to play that role. My independence scared a few of them off. It took a long time for me to understand this and to be able to achieve balance. I admit that I LIKE my man to want to protect me, but I also like the feeling that he doesn't HAVE to because I can do it for myself. I'm finally in a relationship where this is no longer a challenge.

This brought up all of the psychology and sociology info I absorbed in college regarding the anima and animus - that all of us have male and female aspects and that we are healthier when we accept both of them. Another reason that I love my religion ~ I follow both a god and goddess and appreciate their respective qualities.

[SagaDraco]

"Interesting post. Hate to tell you but I raised my son through his teen years as a single mother--and his father is not an agressive person either. My son ended up as competitive, strong-willed, responsible, and willing to take risks but hardly intimidating nor aggressive. So did my daughter. Since you seem to see these characteristics as 'masculine' are you saying that 'feminine' women exhibit the opposite of "being responsible for what you do, being strong physically and mentally, never letting yourself be walked on, and being a good protector and provider"? Not what I taught my daughter............"

Although I grew up in the rare two-parent household, I was primarily raised by my mother, as my father works evenings. But I am thankful I had my father around during the mornings and weekends. Would've sucked without him. As for "Manstranger", first off, with a name like that, I am not suprised you rant and rave(who are you trying to convince, me or yourself?) "Women don't need men in order for the human race to survive." Have fun in your feminazi dystopia. You'll probably be there alone, which I'll hazard a guess you must be accustomed to.

[Faery-Wings]

Moderator Mode

Our rule is to respect one another and their paths. That includes not bashing their screen name and beliefs.

End Moderator Mode

[Valnorran]

I don't know. All the books and academic research and theorizing smacks of social engineering to me. Personally, I resent some theoretician locked in his university ivory tower telling me what sort of man I ought to be or how I should raise my son. I'm perfectly capable of deciding that on my own. I also reject the notion that there is a single method for raising any child. Sorry, but people are born with many of their personality traits already in place. Methods of raising some will not work with others. I think spanking has its place. It should be a last resort, it should not leave bruises, it should be restricted to the backside or hands. For example, I have numerous weapons. They are locked up, but as any parent knows, a determined child (especially a mechanically inclined one, like my son) can overcome any obstacle and locate any hiding place. I decided that a good safety measure would be to remove my children's curiousity. I showed them my weapons and where I keep them. I told them that if they wanted to know about the guns or swords all they had to do was ask me. I would be more than happy to teach them. I also told them about the accidents that could happen, but a child isn't really going to grasp the full measure of that. There is no way they can truly understand what an accidental shooting entails, so I also told them what I would do to them if they went near the guns or swords without my permission and supervision. While they may not understand the reality of accidents with weapons, they do know what it's like to get spanked. That has reality for them. They have experienced it and do what they can to avoid it. It serves as a deterrent and, in this case, a safety measure. Of course, some kids will get into trouble no matter what you do. One method does not work for every child.

I was raised by my mother. I ran into some problems with the Boy Code growing up, but I learned many things. I learned that just because I dislike something it is not going to go away. I learned introspection. And probably most important of all, I learned self-reliance.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Valnorran
I don't know. All the books and academic research and theorizing smacks of social engineering to me. Personally, I resent some theoretician locked in his university ivory tower telling me what sort of man I ought to be or how I should raise my son. I'm perfectly capable of deciding that on my own. I also reject the notion that there is a single method for raising any child. Sorry, but people are born with many of their personality traits already in place. Methods of raising some will not work with others. I think spanking has its place. It should be a last resort, it should not leave bruises, it should be restricted to the backside or hands. For example, I have numerous weapons. They are locked up, but as any parent knows, a determined child (especially a mechanically inclined one, like my son) can overcome any obstacle and locate any hiding place. I decided that a good safety measure would be to remove my children's curiousity. I showed them my weapons and where I keep them. I told them that if they wanted to know about the guns or swords all they had to do was ask me. I would be more than happy to teach them. I also told them about the accidents that could happen, but a child isn't really going to grasp the full measure of that. There is no way they can truly understand what an accidental shooting entails, so I also told them what I would do to them if they went near the guns or swords without my permission and supervision. While they may not understand the reality of accidents with weapons, they do know what it's like to get spanked. That has reality for them. They have experienced it and do what they can to avoid it. It serves as a deterrent and, in this case, a safety measure. Of course, some kids will get into trouble no matter what you do. One method does not work for every child.

I was raised by my mother. I ran into some problems with the Boy Code growing up, but I learned many things. I learned that just because I dislike something it is not going to go away. I learned introspection. And probably most important of all, I learned self-reliance.

I agree. I posted earlier in the thread that no matter how I tried to raise my sons, they were influenced both positively and negatively by males outside of the home. Since their father was not available to them, I was grateful for the positive role models that we had the blessing of coming into contact with, and also for the negative ones who gave us a the opportunities for few teachable moments.

Edited to Add: I bumped this thread because it has always been an excellent discussion. It's been one that has attracted both male and female input and has encouraged the sharing of many different experiences. I am very surprised to see that moderation has been necessary and I would hate to see this thread be closed.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Valnorran
I don't know. All the books and academic research and theorizing smacks of social engineering to me. Personally, I resent some theoretician locked in his university ivory tower telling me what sort of man I ought to be or how I should raise my son. I'm perfectly capable of deciding that on my own. I also reject the notion that there is a single method for raising any child. Sorry, but people are born with many of their personality traits already in place. Methods of raising some will not work with others.

That's very true about there being no single method. The personalities of my son and daughter are very different, as are the personalities of me and my three sisters. Not gender, personalities. As a broad generality there does seem to be some differences between male and female. On an individual level, personality matters far more than gender.


Maggie

[Witchy Cowgirl]

We're raising 3 boys.
My Hubby and I have almost exactly the same views on how to raise them which is good.
I was very much a TomBoy as I was growing up (and still am). Which I think makes me better suited for raising my boys.
I think if I'd had a girl she would probably be my opposite and then I'd be at a loss as to what to do with her. I see my sister-in-law raising her daughter - who is very much the little girl. I love my niece to pieces but am so grateful that I have boys. Barbie dolls, bows, dresses, they aren't for me. I like being in the middle of all the excitment, playing sports, getting dirty, wrestling, all the rough and tumble stuff. With that said I guess your wondering, "So how are you breaking the code?"
Well I don't cook (no more than I have too.) Hubby does the biggest part of the laudry. I work in the barn, handle the horses and the cattle. Our boys are seeing that you don't have to be male or female to preform a certain task. They know women can pull (or back) a trailor, work cattle, fix a flat, or drive fence post as well as men. They know men can cook, sew on buttons, run a vacum, dust or give hugs as well as women.
We teach them not to start trouble but to take up for themselves if trouble comes there way. They are taught to take up for people who can't take up for themselves; boys or girls.
Things are different at our house than most people think they would be. Our boys are All Boy, but they know how to share their feelings as well. And they probably learned that from their Dad more than me.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by Witchy Cowgirl
We're raising 3 boys.
My Hubby and I have almost exactly the same views on how to raise them which is good.
I was very much a TomBoy as I was growing up (and still am). Which I think makes me better suited for raising my boys.
I think if I'd had a girl she would probably be my opposite and then I'd be at a loss as to what to do with her. I see my sister-in-law raising her daughter - who is very much the little girl. I love my niece to pieces but am so grateful that I have boys. Barbie dolls, bows, dresses, they aren't for me. I like being in the middle of all the excitment, playing sports, getting dirty, wrestling, all the rough and tumble stuff. With that said I guess your wondering, "So how are you breaking the code?"
Well I don't cook (no more than I have too.) Hubby does the biggest part of the laudry. I work in the barn, handle the horses and the cattle. Our boys are seeing that you don't have to be male or female to preform a certain task. They know women can pull (or back) a trailor, work cattle, fix a flat, or drive fence post as well as men. They know men can cook, sew on buttons, run a vacum, dust or give hugs as well as women.
We teach them not to start trouble but to take up for themselves if trouble comes there way. They are taught to take up for people who can't take up for themselves; boys or girls.
Things are different at our house than most people think they would be. Our boys are All Boy, but they know how to share their feelings as well. And they probably learned that from their Dad more than me.


Hehehe. I wasn't particularly a tomboy but I didn't get into the doll stuff and dresses, etc. Then while I had a boy first, my second child was a girl. ! She did like clothes and dolls but she also liked climbing trees. She insisted I make her sweatshirts and pants in pink fleece........

The biggest thing to my mind is to make sure that the kids understand ability and/or talent is what counts, not gender roles. I am a terrible cook, partly because I hate cooking. My kids are very much in favor of their stepfather doing the cooking! I think there are gender differences in general--it's just important to get across that they may not or don't have to apply individually.

Maggie

[LoveShard]

Well looking at this from a "guy in high school" kinda view, Most of you are right on about how, for the most part, the males in the school enviroment try to influence young men. Most of thier peers of thier own age attempt this, because apparently should you not be a "man" they might question your "man-ness"(note: I'm very aware thats not a word ;)) I think the best thing my other and father taught me was "Be yourself, Dont like people influence you, and respectfully ignore those who'd like to change you" Though, rather oddly on the other end of the spectrum almost everyone who finds out I'm gay asummes immediatly im exactly the opposite of everything in the "Boy Code"
~Shard

[Flar's Freyja]

:bumpsmili

[Toad]

Wow…what an interesting thread Freyja…thanks for bumping it.

I am very thankful to have two wonderful kids…my girl is 7 and my son 5. Since this is a thread about breaking the boy code I will focus on my son…Reid.

I guess I was raised differently than most males. I was an only child and my parents were very young (mom 17, dad 19 when they married). My father did not like his father much at all. Apparently granddad was alcoholic and incredibly overbearing with my father. It sounds that dad was given a bit of all the codes that you described in the first thread. In turn my father went the other way with me. I was encouraged to share my emotions, I wasn’t forced into sports, I wasn’t taught religion. In my house if you were mannerly and showed respect you could pretty much do anything. If anything my father was too loose…he probably went too far. I honestly believe that had I not been of above average intelligence I would have gotten in serious trouble. Luckily I was smart enough to not get thrown in jail…though honestly…there were a couple of close calls. :D

With Reid I try to give him more structure than I had. We have rules, boundaries and a few responsibilities (more as he gets older). Like my father I will not be forcing him into sports…though he has been and will be encouraged to play. I am very open with my children. I am naturally a hugger, a cuddler and smoocher and so is my boy. When we get angry I encourage him to express his frustration, we do a bit of pillow punching…but we are not allowed to be disrespectful and to cause damage to the house or his sister.

I generally set well defined boundaries and rules for the kids. Something I didn’t have growing up. When someone is out of line I will very clearly and calmly explain the rule again, make them repeat the rule and what they did wrong. I then give them the choice. Usually its follow X rule or I will take Y action. There are no futher warnings...and any punishment is swift and unstoppable. Listening is a big thing in our house…and I know I am going to be made fun of as an old man for the amount of times I have given the listening lecture. :D

I guess that I have been giving him certain male programming. When I leave the house he is the man of the house and it’s his job to protect mom and sister. A job he takes seriously. He is taught the traditional values of boys don’t hit girls and if you don’t have something nice to say…don’t speak…that kind of stuff. He is also been taught to respect adults and to do what you are told…but I have been very careful to include the ‘If you are touched in a way you don’t like its fine to say no and the adult should respect that…if they don’t to come tell dad or mom’. I have also taught him the male philosophy of we NEVER start a fight…but it one does start we will win it.

I think we are very open with sexuality…while I haven’t had a birds and bees talk he is well aware that boys have a penis and girls have a vagina. He knows that babies grow in a woman’s tummy – though I don’t think we have discussed intercourse or vaginal birth yet…but hell they are 5 and 7 (they do know about c sections due to my wifes c section scar – my daughter was c section). To my children being nude is nothing to be ashamed of – though I admit it’s a challenge at times to keep them dressed and not running down the street nude…which tends to raise a few eyebrows.

Another thing that he hears from me daily is that I love him. That I will always love him…no matter what. He will always be my boy…and I will always be his papa. I also stress that he can talk to me about anything. It’s funny when I get the ‘I KNOW that you love me dad…gheez!’. Tells me he gets the message. I also make a concerted effort to praise them for good deeds and to compliment them on the physical and mental attributes. They are beautiful and handsome and the smartest kids in teh world who can do anything they set their minds to. Self confidence building is stressed...I have to be mindful of this as I did not have much self confidence until later in life. I didnt want this for my children...but at the same time I dont want a pair of egomaniacs. =)

As for religion…we have committed ourselves to exposing the kids to all the religions. It will be their choice in what they decide to pursue. My wife is agnostic, and I am the pagan. Our children are being exposed to Christian, Jewish, Islamic and Pagan beliefs. I am very careful not to push or direct their beliefs here. I am also a bit guarded about my beliefs at this point. They are still young. In fact they are spending this week in vacation bible school…it’s a challenge for me to not react to the Jesus is our savior stuff that they regurgitate. This is especially difficult for me...but I think I am pulling it off…I think.

Currently he is taking karate classes and its teaching him a tremendous amount. His listening skills have improved dramatically; he is more disciplined and has more self control. His motor skills have taken quantum leaps. He has never had self confidence issues…he is very outgoing…but I have seen even more confidence in him since his lessons. He has also learned a lot about respect. He adores his instructor…and at the same time he is ‘almost’ afraid of him. Mr. Steve is godlike to him …and the worst thing in the world is if Mr. Steve is disappointed. (We are truly blessed with our sons instructor…he is one of the greatest individuals I have ever had a chance to meet…he loves the children and takes his responsibility of training them extremely seriously – he also has the patience of a saint - sorry a little off on a tangent there).

I don’t know if its obvious from the post…but the way we raise our children is a very measured and controlled methodology for us. Its one that has kept me up more nights than I care to admit. I am constantly questioning our decisions, so is my wife. I am thankful that my wife and I both can talk openly about these issues…we make a hell of a team. This is truly the greatest challenge I have ever faced, its also the scariest thing I have ever done. In the same breath it’s the most rewarding thing in my life…and I would not trade it for anything.

[Flar's Freyja]

Thanks so much for replying to this and sharing, it's an old favorite. I got called in to work a day early so I'll have to respond later. Again, Toad, we have a lot in common!

[Altheia]

Right now I do not know wether I am having a boy or a girl...either would be fine...I can relate to a lot of the women who posted about being the boy and the girl of the family. I was raised by a single mother...my younger sister was considered the "baby" of us three...my older sister, well, she is nine years older than I, so by the time I could actually dress myself, she was gone to college and starting her own life. I had to live in her shadow academicwise...bringing home less than an a was unacceptable...always being pushed to excell in academics, I turned to other outlets...soccer, track, dance team...anything to keep my proverbial plate full so that I did not have to "deal" with it all...when I was old enough to drive, I kept a job, even during the summer to stay away from the house as much as possible...I know that my mother meant nothing but the best for me, even more so now...but she pushed me too hard and that hurt our relationship...I was a tomboy up until a couple of years ago when she decided that jeans and a t-shirt were no longer suitable...I couldn't understand...I had long hair, I looked like a girl, I didn't know what the deal was...what bothers me the most is that she does not do it to my little sister...she babies her like you wouldn't believe...that girl, who is four years younger than I, can do absolutley NO wrong...she gets treated like an only child now...it just kills me sometimes to see the double standard that was there...it was like that when we were in school together...she was never pushed nearly as hard as I was...and that really irks me...so, now, I am a 20 year honors graduate who is expecting her first child in october...not exactly what my mother had hoped for me...i know that i could have done something better, we all feel that way at some point in time, but right now taking care of this baby is the best thing in the world for me to be doing...and thank you all for your input, because of you all, i will be a better parent to this child! (and when i find out what it is, i'll let ya'll know!)

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Toad

I guess that I have been giving him certain male programming. When I leave the house he is the man of the house and it’s his job to protect mom and sister. A job he takes seriously. He is taught the traditional values of boys don’t hit girls and if you don’t have something nice to say…don’t speak…that kind of stuff. He is also been taught to respect adults and to do what you are told…but I have been very careful to include the ‘If you are touched in a way you don’t like its fine to say no and the adult should respect that…if they don’t to come tell dad or mom’. I have also taught him the male philosophy of we NEVER start a fight…but it one does start we will win it.

Another thing that he hears from me daily is that I love him. That I will always love him…no matter what. He will always be my boy…and I will always be his papa. I also stress that he can talk to me about anything. It’s funny when I get the ‘I KNOW that you love me dad…gheez!’. Tells me he gets the message. I also make a concerted effort to praise them for good deeds and to compliment them on the physical and mental attributes. They are beautiful and handsome and the smartest kids in teh world who can do anything they set their minds to. Self confidence building is stressed...I have to be mindful of this as I did not have much self confidence until later in life. I didnt want this for my children...but at the same time I dont want a pair of egomaniacs. =)

Currently he is taking karate classes and its teaching him a tremendous amount. His listening skills have improved dramatically; he is more disciplined and has more self control. His motor skills have taken quantum leaps. He has never had self confidence issues…he is very outgoing…but I have seen even more confidence in him since his lessons. He has also learned a lot about respect. He adores his instructor…and at the same time he is ‘almost’ afraid of him. Mr. Steve is godlike to him …and the worst thing in the world is if Mr. Steve is disappointed. (We are truly blessed with our sons instructor…he is one of the greatest individuals I have ever had a chance to meet…he loves the children and takes his responsibility of training them extremely seriously – he also has the patience of a saint - sorry a little off on a tangent there).

I don’t know if its obvious from the post…but the way we raise our children is a very measured and controlled methodology for us. Its one that has kept me up more nights than I care to admit. I am constantly questioning our decisions, so is my wife. I am thankful that my wife and I both can talk openly about these issues…we make a hell of a team. This is truly the greatest challenge I have ever faced, its also the scariest thing I have ever done. In the same breath it’s the most rewarding thing in my life…and I would not trade it for anything.

It's so important that both parents be on, or at least somewhere near, the same page when it comes to parenting. My ex and I really had some issues when it came to the male aggression thing, and it is very difficult to address. While I didn't want my boys to be the trashy street fighter type and wanted them to learn to handle conflict without resorting to physical violence, I also did not want them to be victims. My ex's solution to al of it was "kick their @$$." Once when my oldest was around 9, he came home on his bike pretty banged up and when asked what happened, he casually replied "Oh, I got in a fight and I lost" and almost seemed proud of himself anyway........my youngest is very laid back but didn't hesitate to jump in a defend a friend who "couldn't keep his stupid mouth shut" not too long ago, he's 20 now. So I guess they grew up being able to at least attempt to appropriately judge situations.

Please be careful with giving your son the "man of the house" role......this is probably okay since you and your wife are together, but it can really cause some problems if something should happen. When my ex and I separated, someone put that idea into my oldest's head and he even went so far as to think he had to discipline his two younger brothers. He had stomach aches and headaches resulting from stress. In family counseling sessions, the therapist had to tell him that he'd done a good job but he was fired, because mom could handle things and he deserved to be a kid and not worry about these things. I think we had to tell him three times before he was willing to step down........

My youngest is the only one who's physically close to me right now, with the older two living in New York. For a little while, I worked at the same place with him and worked as a partner with him on several occasions. I was tickled to see him introducing me to customers proudly and he has no qualms about hugging me and telling me he loves me in public. My older boys always tell me on the phone or in e-mails.

Criticisms of some of the things athletic coaches taught them that I wasn't happy with aside - most of them were still very positive role models for my boys and I'll be forever grateful to them. Their own father is definitely substandard and many of these men still demonstrated appropriate male roles, responsibility and ethics.

[ScaryFather]

Are we breaking the Boy Code?

I know this is an old thread, but I'm a newbie here and thought I'd contribute my two cents.

I think there's a serious danger in perceiving masculine traits (and masculinity in general) as a negative thing. I'm not saying that that's what you're doing or what the seminar you went to was about, but I recall hearing an interview with an author on NPR who had written a book about the problem with some female teachers in our school system these days who have taken a cue from their Women's Studies courses at college (which routinely demonize males and male behavior) and instantly berate boys for behaving "boyish". I think it's improtant to "let boys be boys", but at the same time to prevent them from having their feelings closed off with "Be a man!" bullshit.

That said, I don't have much of a concern that my son will grow up to be a lunk-headed troglodyte, as I never was one. I was raised mostly by my mother, who never (EVER) hit me, and as a result didn't end up a "typical" male (which is to say I LOATHE sports and Pemela Adnerson ;)). My main male role model growing up was Jimmy Stewart (sad as that may be), and to me "being a man" means standing up for what you believe in, standing up for those weaker than yourself, and being honest, honorable human being. Obviously, I'm going to be my son's main male role model, so he'll take his cues on how to treat women from how I treat my wife (who tells me constantly that I worship her like a Goddess, so that's no worry). He'll also see me being open with my feelings, so I don't think he'll feel the need to hide his.

One thing that I have to say disturbs me right now is what I see in toy stores. During the 90's, you noticed virtually no war toys on the shelves, but since 9/11 there are TONS of them. Mind you, I'm not against war toys and wil have no problem buying them for Trevor when he's oler if he wants them, but I think it says something about America's current attitude about violence and masculinity. To me, it says to our sons: "Stop being a bunch of pansies and learn how to kill some dirty diaper-heads!" Scary, indeed. GUns and violence were very much out of fashion with the Clinton regime, but now that we have a Cowboy in the White House, that attitude has clearly taken a change for the agressive and beligerant.

[13thChylde]

I have an eight year old son, and so far I'm quite proud of him, and the way he's been raised. I just had lunch with my son + husband, and my son was just being so helpful and thoughtful (my husband is an amputee and