Were you born a Druid or did you choose to be one?

[Findarto]

I think I was born one, it was the first path of any faith I could bond to. So...

[Meadhbh]

Maybe there should be an other choice in there to. Just because you where meant to be something doesn't mean you can't choose to turn your back on it and walk away.

[skilly-nilly]

I agree that there's just toooooo few choices there.

And no definitions;
if by 'Druid' you mean a priest of the pre-Xian religion attested to by Roman reports then you've been dead for thousands of years if you were born into it.

if by 'Druid' you mean either a member of the Victorian British or the '60's revival then there aren't very many people, world-wide, that could have actually been born to followers, raised in the religion, and now be 'Druids'.

if by 'Druid' you mean that you have an affinity to any or all of the Celtic-Group language cultures than anyone qualifies. I personally think we are born with our affinities, but that's way more general than calling yourself a 'Druid'. Why does one of my children like chocolate ice cream and the other vanilla? It's an affinity they were born with.

Spiritual direction is far more complex than born/choose, imo. Without a doubt, sbna people who are born into an ethnicity and raised in a culture feel comfortable and connected to it, but they still choose who they are and what they do. On the other hand, as an Irish Re-Constructionist I believe in rebirth, and so anyone can have a perfectly valid reason for having a culture other than their own ethnicity be meaningful to them. As well, anyone can be motivated by intellectual curiosity, or kinship with humans as a species.

On the gripping hand, I strongly believe that spirituality is a 2-way street. God/s/dess/desses Speak to us and we choose whether or not we'll answer.
Apart from that yes/no, I think it's very anthropocentric to think that the decision is really up to us.

[Stang]

IMO, it would be difficult to improve on what skilly-nilly said. But perhaps Findarto could explain his or her definition of the term "Druid", so that we could understand the question better.

Even if we were to assume that the historical comments about a person needing 20 years of training in order to become a Druid were exaggerations, it's still difficult to understand how someone could be born a Druid, as I understand the term. Would that mean that the person passed through the various stages of Druidic training while still in the womb? Perhaps Taliesin managed that, but I see his story as a metaphor about the kinds of personal transformations that are necessary as part of the initiatory process, rather than a story to be taken literally.

[odubhain]

I agree that there's just toooooo few choices there.

And no definitions;
if by 'Druid' you mean a priest of the pre-Xian religion attested to by Roman reports then you've been dead for thousands of years if you were born into it.

Spirit and ideas do not die even when oppressed. The ideas and spirit of Druids have survived to this very day over thousands of years.

Druids taught and still teach that there is another life in another body after this one. They also teach that there are other worlds that connect with this one.

As a part of being a Druid, one accesses the place of all intersections. It is there that everything is connected and that Druids are made or remade as the case may be.

Searles O'Dubhain

[PaulKrul]

Spirit and ideas do not die even when oppressed. The ideas and spirit of Druids have survived to this very day over thousands of years.

Druids taught and still teach that there is another life in another body after this one. They also teach that there are other worlds that connect with this one.


Though the spirit and ideas might not die out, they do get changed by time. Most of Druidism is reconstructed and still many changes are made each year, because better more accurate information is found.

From Roman and Greek sources and Celtic myths we are told that Druids believed in a form of reincarnation, but the commonly used "three realms" were not "created" till the 18th century by Iolo Morganwyg.


Personally I chose Druidism as my belief, after a long and deep spiritual search.

[Seren_]

From Roman and Greek sources and Celtic myths we are told that Druids believed in a form of reincarnation, but the commonly used "three realms" were not "created" till the 18th century by Iolo Morganwyg.

How do you mean? As far as I'm aware the three realms is attested to many times in early Irish literature like the Tain, which greatly predates Iolo Morganwyg.

[PaulKrul]

Early Irish literature indeed mentions the three realms in multiple works, what I meant was that it wasn't accepted as "the druidic view" untill Iolo Morganwyg with several others started defining some ideas and views as being core parts of Druidism.

Modern Druids base their views mostly upon myths, legends and classical literature combined with surviving Celtic culture. But in the end we decide by choice what elements we truely follow and which we ignore. Or to a lesser degree which parts of Druidism are more important then others.

For example, right now there are quite a number of Druids focussing on just the spiritual and ritual (cultural) elements. While the intellectual element, which we know for certain was very important for the old Druids, is often ignored. Anybody who really claims to follow the path of an old Druid would most likely have to have at least 1 Ph D and probably a bunch of more degrees as well.


What I mean is that we reconstruct Druidism and nothing is wrong with that, but we should realize that we are doing it.

[odubhain]

Though the spirit and ideas might not die out, they do get changed by time. Most of Druidism is reconstructed and still many changes are made each year, because better more accurate information is found.

From Roman and Greek sources and Celtic myths we are told that Druids believed in a form of reincarnation, but the commonly used "three realms" were not "created" till the 18th century by Iolo Morganwyg.


Personally I chose Druidism as my belief, after a long and deep spiritual search.Iolo did indeed express a cosmology with "three realms." However, the idea of three realms in Celtic thought goes back thousands of years before Iolo. The concept can be found in oaths, in triple deaths, in sacrifices, in basic Indo-European cosmologies that predate the Celtic cultures that were influenced.

In Irish cosmology, one often sees these three realms expressed in forms of plains (magh), brughs (síd) and islands (tír).

The Druid way is a wonderful path to explore and journey.

Searles

[John T. Folden]

For example, right now there are quite a number of Druids focussing on just the spiritual and ritual (cultural) elements. While the intellectual element, which we know for certain was very important for the old Druids, is often ignored. Anybody who really claims to follow the path of an old Druid would most likely have to have at least 1 Ph D and probably a bunch of more degrees as well.

Actually, I'd argue that we really don't know HOW the Druids were originally taught/trained. I think it's more than reasonable to assume that different levels of study were available depending on the focus or intended occupation of the individual. As we know they held many different positions in Celtic society. I believe the most common reference in relation to this topic mentions that it took up to 20 years.

As an aside, I'm leery of anyone who would claim they "follow the path of an old Druid" as there is no longer a society and culture to support such a position. :)


John

[odubhain]

Actually, I'd argue that we really don't know HOW the Druids were originally taught/trained. I think it's more than reasonable to assume that different levels of study were available depending on the focus or intended occupation of the individual. As we know they held many different positions in Celtic society. I believe the most common reference in relation to this topic mentions that it took up to 20 years.

As an aside, I'm leery of anyone who would claim they "follow the path of an old Druid" as there is no longer a society and culture to support such a position. :)


John
Well we do have a curriculum that was studied by a branch of the Irish Druids. We do have the laws they studied. We do know the tales they studied. We even have some tips on how they worked magic in matters of foresight and divination. On top of that we know something about the deities they worshipped, the values they taught and the times and places where they performed rituals.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, feelings and attitudes. I'll not disparage another because they seek to discover, to study and to flesh out the Old Ways. In fact, I'm all for encouraging such studies and efforts. I'm personally leery of people who write off these traditions as being unknown and not worthwhile. IMO they are very worthwhile and the knowledge they contain is plentiful as well as beneficial to anyone wanting to honor their ancestors.

There are hundreds of tales, triads, laws, techniques, songs, kennings and ideas to be studied and thousands more to be discovered.

Searles O'Dubhain

[John T. Folden]

Well we do have a curriculum that was studied by a branch of the Irish Druids. We do have the laws they studied. We do know the tales they studied. We even have some tips on how they worked magic in matters of foresight and divination. On top of that we know something about the deities they worshipped, the values they taught and the times and places where they performed rituals.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, feelings and attitudes. I'll not disparage another because they seek to discover, to study and to flesh out the Old Ways. In fact, I'm all for encouraging such studies and efforts. I'm personally leery of people who write off these traditions as being unknown and not worthwhile. IMO they are very worthwhile and the knowledge they contain is plentiful as well as beneficial to anyone wanting to honor their ancestors.

There are hundreds of tales, triads, laws, techniques, songs, kennings and ideas to be studied and thousands more to be discovered.

Searles O'Dubhain

Perhaps you took my post wrong because I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say and I'm certainly not discounting the info that we do have available to us, however my point is/was that we don't have a complete picture of the situation to the point where we can say "this is how it was for all druids". There's as much/more unknowns as there are knowns. ...and due to changes in culture/society it's impossible for Druids today to fit in the exact same way as in times of old. There's nothing wrong with this, however, because Druidry is not a stagnant thing - it is continually growing and changing (and leading the way in some instances).

John

[Naroddrec]

I feel that I was born with a predisposition to druidism...it is what I gravitated to, but it did take time and I did make a conscious choice to follow a druidic path.

[odubhain]

Perhaps you took my post wrong because I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say and I'm certainly not discounting the info that we do have available to us, however my point is/was that we don't have a complete picture of the situation to the point where we can say "this is how it was for all druids". There's as much/more unknowns as there are knowns. ...and due to changes in culture/society it's impossible for Druids today to fit in the exact same way as in times of old. There's nothing wrong with this, however, because Druidry is not a stagnant thing - it is continually growing and changing (and leading the way in some instances).

JohnI must have taken your post wrong. I've been dealing with a lot of nay sayers on Usenet lately. :-(

I think what we have left to us is slightly less than a Druidic student may have had available to them PLUS they had a real live Druid teacher to help them when stuck. Our tasks today are more difficult but we can discover many truths and secrets through studying and comparing other ways. What we'll wind up with should be synchronized with what we already have. By performing these two tasks it is my hope that a viable Druidry will be reborn. At some point in this process one will also encounter one's other selves, one's guides and most definitely one's ancestors,. These three will take a person far along the Druid way all on their own.

Searles O'Dubhain

[PaulKrul]

I must have taken your post wrong. I've been dealing with a lot of nay sayers on Usenet lately. :-(

I think what we have left to us is slightly less than a Druidic student may have had available to them PLUS they had a real live Druid teacher to help them when stuck. Our tasks today are more difficult but we can discover many truths and secrets through studying and comparing other ways. What we'll wind up with should be synchronized with what we already have. By performing these two tasks it is my hope that a viable Druidry will be reborn. At some point in this process one will also encounter one's other selves, one's guides and most definitely one's ancestors,. These three will take a person far along the Druid way all on their own.

Searles O'Dubhain


Personally I think that far more knowledge has been lost and distorted through time. But it's a situation in which evidence can be given for both point of views. I do think we know the basic outlines of Druidry in that era, which is the most important.

Further I agree with you that a viable Druidry will be born through efforts in both hard work, dedication and studying. I fear that the biggest problem will be some differences in the very basics of Druidry (mainly in the intellectual area). But I am confident that in due time we shall overcome those to create that viable Druidry.

[odubhain]

Personally I think that far more knowledge has been lost and distorted through time. But it's a situation in which evidence can be given for both point of views. I do think we know the basic outlines of Druidry in that era, which is the most important.

Further I agree with you that a viable Druidry will be born through efforts in both hard work, dedication and studying. I fear that the biggest problem will be some differences in the very basics of Druidry (mainly in the intellectual area). But I am confident that in due time we shall overcome those to create that viable Druidry.
I'll agree with you on these two points and leave you with a thought that actually got me booted off another list. To this day, I can't understand why the list moderators were offended. Here it is.

If we were to lose all of Druidry and Druidism today, then we could rediscover it again in the same way that it was first discovered.

I guess the list moderators must have been promoting some other method of building Druidry than the original ways or that they thought that using what was left from tradition, seeking new truth through experiences ,or discerning wisdom through questioning and inquiry could not be married to imbas and seeking wisdom from the gods and spirits.

Go figure! :-)

Searles O'Dubhain

[Tadrith]

Well we do have a curriculum that was studied by a branch of the Irish Druids. We do have the laws they studied. We do know the tales they studied. We even have some tips on how they worked magic in matters of foresight and divination. On top of that we know something about the deities they worshipped, the values they taught and the times and places where they performed rituals.


Such as?

[odubhain]

Such as?
Many of these tales were a part of the tales learned by heart by a class of Irish Druids:

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/MS-OMIT/texts.htm

Read the list of approximately 139 to get an idea of what was studied. Some of these tales evolved through the years before being written down but all of them come out of the Irish traditions. The list was compiled and copyrighted by Johan Corthals. Cothals also provides the existing source documents in which the tales are found. Often there are three or more sources in the Irish written records as well as more than one edition of them compiled by scholars.

Johan Cothals also compiled a list of really good secondary sources:

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/MS-OMIT/manuscr.htm

Here one can read what scholars of Irish traditions thought about the works.

Proinsias MacCana compiled two lists of tales from the Irish traditions that were the repertoire of the Filidh in his book _The Learned Tales of Ireland_. In this book MacCana discussed many of the concepts regarding why and how the tales were preserved. There's much to be found yet and still more to be studied. It's time to roll up our sleeves and get to work.

These sites give us a good start on that:

http://web.ncf.ca/bj333/folklore.html
http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/index_irish.html

There's several other great sites. These are only two of many.

Here's another great list from the body of literature that is commonly known as the Brehon Laws. This particular collection is called Corpus Iuris Hibernici (ed. Daniel Binchy, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1976), These are currently being transcribed and translated in a project that is centered in Ireland and Wales.

This list is one compiled by David Stifter:

http://tinyurl.com/y5yh53

This list was compiled by Bart Jaski:

http://tinyurl.com/yxmeut

In Ireland, no Druid, File or Brehon could judge the laws without also knowing the precedent in tradition. IMO the six volumes of the collection_the Ancient Laws of Ireland_ number thousands of pages and serve as pointers to a vast corpus of knowledge that is the grove of Ogham indexed memory. The Ogham, Brehon Law and Memories of the Filidh represent a living law library waiting for us under the old trees by the river.

One can read a few of these books at Google Books:

http://www.archive.org/details/ancientlaws01hancuoft
http://www.archive.org/details/ancientlaws03hancuoft
http://www.archive.org/details/ancientlaws04hancuoft
http://tinyurl.com/2h9vxv

And a discussion of them here:

http://tinyurl.com/2dwh7j

Much of the information you'll need to digest and extract so a study of comparative religions and cultures, particularly Indo-European and/or Celtic culture will give you a decent perspective.

At one time, I got so tired of hearing about the lack of sources available for Celtic and Druidic sources that I went out and quickly compiled a list of some sources that are easily available to modern students. These represent the tip of the iceberg:

"Cairpre Mac Edaine's Satire Upon Bres Mac Eladain"
"Can a mBunadus na nGáedel" ("Whence the Origin of the Gael?")
"Cenn Faelad, Story of" [from Lebor Aiccle, "Book of Aicill"]
"Fintan and the Hawk of Aicill" ("Arsaidh sin a eóuin Accla")
"Four Jewels of the Tuatha Dé Danann, The
"How the Dagda Got His Magic Staff"
"Milesian Invasion of Ireland, The"
"Tuath Dé Miscellany, A" Ed
Aided Con Culainn
Aided Muirchertaig Meic Erca
Aided Óenfir Aífe
Airne Fíngein
Aislinge Meic Con Glinne
Aislinge Oengusso
Altram Tige Dá Medar ("The Fosterage of the House of Two Cups")
Ancient Irish Tales
Artúraíochta, mar atá Eachtra Mhelóra agus Orlando, agus Céilidhe Iosgaide
Léithe
Auraicept na n-Éces ("The Scholars' Primer")
Bansenchas ("Lore Concerning Women")
Beatha Colaim Chille, The Life of Colum
Betha Brenain maic Fhinnlogha
Betha Colmáin maic Lúacháin : Life of Colmán son of
Bethu Brigte, The Life of Brigit
Bethu Phátraic
Buile Suibhne
Cath Almaine
Cath Cinn Abrad
Cath Finntrágha
Cath Maige Mucrama: The Battle of Mag Mucrama
Cath Maige Tuired ("The [Second] Battle of Mag Tuired")
Cath Maighe Léna
Cath Muige Tuired Cunga ("The [First] Battle of Mag Tuired")
Cath Muighe Tuireadh: The Second Battle of Magh Tuireadh
Coir Anmann ("The Fitness of Names")
Compert Con Culainn
Corpus Genealogiarum Hiberniae
Corpus Inscriptionum Insularum Celticarum Vol.
Cuchulain of Muirthemne
De Gabáil in t-Sída ("The Taking of the Fairy Mound")
Dindsenchas ("Lore Concerning Places")
Do Suidigud Tellaig Temra ("The Settling of the Manor of Tara")
Duanaire Finn: The Book of the Lays of Fionn
Duanaire Mhéig Uidhir: The Poembook of Cú Chonnacht Mág Uidhir, Lord of
Fermanagh 1566-1589
Eachtra Léithín ("The Adventures of Léithín")
Early Irish Lyrics: Eighth to Twelfth Century
Early Irish Myths and Sagas
Expugnation Hibernica, The Conquest of Ireland
Félire Óengusso Céli Dé: The Martyrology of Oengus the Culdee
Fianaigecht: Poems and Tales Relating to Finn and his Fiana
Fingal Rónáin and Other Stories
Fled Bricrend : The Feast of Bricriu
Forbhais Droma Dámhgháire: The Siege of Knocklong
Gabhaltais Shearluis Mhóir: The Conquests of Charlemagne
Genealogical Tracts I
Giolla an Fhiugha (Lad of the Ferule) and Eachtra Cloinne Righ na
h-Ioruaidhe (Adventures of the Children Of the King of Norway)
Imtheachta Aeniasa: The Irish Aeneid
Irish Adam and Eve Story from Saltir na Rann
Lebor Bretnach
Lebor Gabála Érenn ("The Book of the Taking of Ireland")
Lebor na hUidre: Book of the Dun Cow
Life of Saint Columba
Lorgaireacht an tSoidhigh Naomhtha
Merugud Uilix maic Leirtis
Mesca Ulad
Oidheadh Chloinne hUisneach: The Violent Death of the Children of Uisneach
Oidheadh Chloinne Lir ("The Fate of the Children of Lir")
Oidheadh Chloinne Tuirenn ("The Fate of the Children of Tuirenn")
Old Irish Reader
Onomasticon Goedelicum: An index, with Identifications, to the Gaelic names
of Places and Tribes
Poems of the O'Reillys
Poems on the Butlers of Ormond, Cahir, and Dunboyne (A.D. 1400-1650)
Sanas Cormac (Cormac's Glossary)
Scél Tuáin meic Chairill ("The Story of Tuán son of Cairell")
Scéla Cano meic Gartnáin
Scéla Éogain
Scéla Mosauluim
Scéla Mucce Meic Dathó
Serglige Con Culainn
Sex Aetates Mundi
St. Patrick: His Writings and Muirchu's
Stories from the Acallam
Táin Bó Cúailnge: Recension I
Táin Bó Cúalnge from the Book of Leinster
Táin Bó Fraích
Tain Translated from the Irish Epic Táin Bó Cuailnge
The Banquet of Dun Na n-Gedh and The Battle of Magh Rath
The Book of Leinster, formerly Lebar na Núachongbála
The Book of Magauran: Leabhar Méig Shamhradháin
The Book of O'Hara: Leabhar Í Eadhra
The Cycles of the Kings
The Death Tales of the Ulster Heroes
The Heroic Biography of Cormac mac Airt
The Irish Sex Aetates Mundi, "The Six Ages of the World
The Metrical Dindshenchas
The Romance of Cearbhall and Fearbhlaidh
The Song of Dermot and the Earl
The Stowe Version of Táin Bó Cuailnge
The Voyage of Bran Imram
Thesaurus Palaeohibernicus: A Collection of Old-Irish glosses, scholia,
prose, and verse
Tochmarc Emire
Tochmarc Étaíne
Tochomlod mac Miledh a hEspain i nErind
Togail Bruidne Da Derga
Topographical Poems by Seaán Mór Ó Dubhagáin and Giolla-na-naomh Ó hUidhrín
Tóruigheacht Dhiarmada agus Ghráinne
Tóruigheacht Gruaidhe Griansholas (The Pursuit of Gruaidhe Griansholas) Dhá
sgéal
Two Celtic Saints:The Lives of Ninian and Kentigern

These are a start on understanding the ways and the wisdom of the ancient Druids. The Prim-Scéla or "Primary Tales" that a Filidh was expected to know are said to have included:

Aideda "Death Tales and Violent Deaths,"
Aitheda "Elopements,"
Baile (buile) "Frenzies and Visions,"
Cathanna "Battles,"
Comperta "Conceptions and Begettings,"
Echtrai "Otherworldly Journeys and Adventures,"
Fess (feis) "Feasts," Fis "Visions,"
Forbasa " sieges," Imrama " Sea Voyages,"
Longes "Exiles,"
Oircne (orcun) "Murderings and Ravagings
Serca "Loves,"
Slúagada "Hostings and Military Expeditions,"
Tána "Cattle Raids,"
Tochmarca "Wooings and Courtings,"
Tochomluda " Setting Forths and Advancings,"
Togla "Attacks and Destructions,"
Tomadmann "Bursting Forths of Lakes or Rivers," and
Úatha "Terrors and Horrors."

The form of some of these tales is thought to be a later addition to the repertoire of a Filidh (such as the Imrama and the Echtrai), though the subject matter of most of them is much earlier and heroic or mythic in nature. Traditionally a Filidh would recite the appropriate tale for the particular circumstances or occasion, as well as being able to recite a different story for each night of the long winter from Samhain to Bealtaine. In addition to the 150+ Prim-Scéla there were also additional tales known only to the four highest levels of Filidh. These may have concerned the more esoteric knowledge attained at this level such as Imbas Forosnai "Knowledge that Illuminates," Tenm Laegda "Illumination by Chanting," and Dichetal Do Chennaibh "Extemporaneous Incantation Using the Ends of the Fingers." In my opinion, these techniques are similar to those already outlined for our use in Ogham Divination, particularly in the ways that they connect the dúile and the Coire, (but that is definitely another story for another time and place). Beyond the Primary Tales and the secondary Tales, there were also tales known as Dindshenchas "Place Name Origins" and Échta "Exploits" which could be related to the people and the gatherings.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

Such as?
Here's an extract from a book I'm writing:

Becoming a Poet

In the first year of study, a fledgling Filidh (known as a Fochlac) would study Ogham, grammar, and tales only . No poetry was involved. In the second year of the Mac Fiurmedh, the knowledge base was built upon a study of Ogham, introductory poetry and more tales. The third year of study covered Ogham, philosophy, poetry, and advanced grammar. At the completion of this study, one was considered a “Dos.” In the fifth year of study, the curriculum included Brethna Nemed (“Law of Privileges”), Eman (“poems with couplets sharing form and meaning”/ simple spells), and even more of the tales. At the completion of this study, one was considered a “Cana” (a singer of tales and poems...perhaps even a Bard?). Year five included more grammar and more tales. The sixth year of study introduced the Secret Language of Poets, Nuath (“Poetic Elegies”) and more tales. In the seventh year one studied the Brosnacha (“miscellanies”) and the Laws of Bardism. At this point, the study moved beyond mental and physical exercises into more esoteric practices. The eighth year saw the study of Prosody, Dindshenchas (“Place name origins”), Teinm Laegda (“Divination by use of song”), Imbas Forosnaí (“Knowledge of Illumination”), Díchetal Do Chennaibh (“Inspiration by means of the Fingers”). This was the Filidh level of Cli (this word seems to be associated with the body and heart as well as with apple trees). After the 8th year, a Filidh was expected to be able to compose his/her own incantations, poems and spells. In the ninth year, Sennat (“Poems of Ancient Wisdom”), Luasca (“Chants of swinging and Rhythmic Oscillation”), Nena (“Truthsaying?”), Eochraid (“Warding and shielding?”), Sruith (“Veneration” - Calling the Ancestors?) were studied. In addition to continuing a study of poetry and lore, the Filidh learned the technique of Duili Feda (“Mastery of the Elements”) in the tenth year. At this level, one became an Ánrad (A Filidh of second degree which in Old Irish means “a hero, warrior, champion”), a formidable Druid/Filidh of great power. The following year centered around the poetic form called Anamain, “Magical Toning and Use of the Breath.” In the final year of study, the Ánrad studied and wrote: Cetals, “Religious Chants”; the Four Arts of Poetry; more tales; Anruth, “Glorious Victories.” Achieving the spiritual knowledge of this year qualified one to the title of Ollamh, “Master Druid/Filidh/Poet/Doctor.” Such Druid greats as: Morann Mac Main Amergin, Nede Mac Adne, Cathbad, and Mug Roith practiced their arts at this level of Draíocht.

OGHAM KEY
The Ogham were studied in the first three years of study by the Druids and Filidh. This was also the time when the tales were first learned and memorized. It is likely that the Ogham were used to categorize and to remember these tales.

Schools of the Filidh

These Druidic arts were continued in Irelands for thousands of years. They were still being taught in the schools of the Filidh as late as the 27th century CE. We have an example of what was taught froma student who had attended such a school (remarks are by Daniel Corkery):

In English there is an account in the Memoirs of the Marquis of Clanricarde (published 1722), which Professor Bergin believes to be trustworthy:
Concerning the poetical Seminary or School, from which I was carried away to clear other things that fell in my way, it was open only to such as were descended of Poets and reputed within their Tribes. And so was it with all the Schools of that kind in the Nation, being equal to the Number of Families that folled the said calling. But some more or less frequented for the difference of Professors, Conveniency, with other Reasons, and seldom any come but from remote parts, to be at a distance from Relations and other Acquaintences that might interrupt his Study. The Qualifications fist requir’d were reading well, writing the Mother-tongue, and a strong Memory. It was likewise necessary the Place should be in the solitary Recess of a Garden or within a Sept or Enclosure far out of the reach of any Noise, which an Intercourse of People might otherwise occasion. The Structure was a snug, low Hut, and beds in it at convenient Distances, each within a small Apartment without much Furniture of any kind, save only a Table, some Seats, and a Conveniency for Cloaths to hang upon. No Windows to let in the Day nor any Light at all us’d but that of Candles, and these brought in at a proper Season only. The Students upon thorough Examination being first divided into Classes, wherein a regard was had to every one’s Age, Genius, and the Scholling had before, if any at all, or otherwise. The Professors (one or moreas there was occasion) gave a Subject suitable to the Capacity of each class, determing the number of Rhimes, and clearingwhat was to be chiefly observed therein as to Syllables, Quartans, Concord, Correspondence, Termination and Union, each of which were restrian’d by peculiar Rules. The said Subject (either one or more as aforesaid) having een given over Night, they work’d it apart each by himself upon his own Bed, the whole next day in the Dark, till at a certain Hour in the Night, Lights being brought in, the committed it to writing. Being afterwards dress’d and come together into a large Room, where the Masters waited, each Scholar gave his Performance, which being corrected or approv’d of (according as it requir’d) either the same or fresh subject were given against the next day. The Part being over, the Students went to their Meal, Which was then serv’d up; and so, after some time spent in Conversation and other Diversions, each retired to his Rest, to be ready for the Business of the net Morning. Every Saturday and on the Eves of Festial Days they broke up and dispers’d themselves among the Gentlemen and rich Farmers of the Country, by whom they were well entertain’d and much made of, till they thought fit to take their leaves, in order to re-assume their Study. Nor was the People satisfied with affording this Hospitality alone; They sent in by turns every Week from far and near Liguors and all manner of Provision towards the Subsistence of the Academy, so that the chief Peot was at little or no Charges, but, on the contrary, got very well by it, besides the Presents made him by the Students upon their first coming, which was the cold season of the Year only, did that close Study last. At that time the Scholars broke up and repair’d each to his own Country, with an Attestation of his Behavior and Capacity from the chief Professor to those that had sent him.

The reason of laying the Study aforesaid in the Dark was doubtless to avoid the Distraction which Light and the variety of Objects represented thereby commonly occasions. This being prevented, the Faculties of the Soul occupied themselves solely upon the Subject in hand, and the Theme given; so that it was soon brought to some Perfection according to the Notions or Capacities of the Students. Yet the course was long and tedious, as we find, and it was six or seven Years before a Mastery or the last Degree was conferred, which you’ll the less admire upon considering the great Difficulty of the Art, the many kinds of their Poems, the Exactness and Nicety to be observ’d in each, which was necessary to render their Numbers soft, and the Harmony agreeable and pleasing to the Ear.
As every Professor, or chief Poet, depending on some Prince or great Lord, that had endowed his Tribe, he was under strict ties to him and Family, as to record in good Metre his Marriages, Births, Deaths, Acquisitions made in war and Peace, Exploits, and other remarkable things relating to the Same. He was likewise bound to offer an Elegy on the Decease of the said Lord, his consort, or any of their children, and a Marriage Song when there should be Occasion. But as to any Epick, or Heroick Verse to be made for any other Lord or Stranger, it was requir’d that at least a Paroemion or Metre therein, should be upon the Patron, or the Name in general …
The last Part to be done, which was the Action and Pronunciation of the Poem in Presence of the Maecenas, or the Principal Person it related to, was perform’d with a great deal of Ceremony in a Consort of Vocal and Instrumental musick. The poet himself said nothing, but directed and took care that everybody else did his Part right. The Bards having first had the Composition from him, got it well by Heart, and now pronounc’d it orderly, keeping even pace with a Harp, touch’d upon that Occasion; no other musical Instrument being allowed for the said Purpose that this alone, as being Masculin, much sweeter and fuller than any other."

Here's a link to a really good article on imbas forosnai,the knowledge that illuminates, by which the Filidh and the Druids found secret knowledge and foretold the future:

http://www.fhaoil-choin.org/imbasforosnai.htm

There's much more. :-)

Searles

[Tadrith]

Out of curiosity, to when does these articles and tales date? Were they not rewritten by the christian irish monks post 6th c.? Most of the published ones are dated from 19th c. onwards. However, when considering documents such as the Barddas and the Arthurian Legends, most of these can be dated post 12th c., despite the urgings of many that they were much older and dated back to the times prior to the extinction of the druids.

These Druidic arts were continued in Irelands for thousands of years. They were still being taught in the schools of the Filidh as late as the 27th century CE. We have an example of what was taught froma student who had attended such a school (remarks are by Daniel Corkery):

I am not sure what you mean by the 27th century CE. We are only in the 21st at the moment.

[odubhain]

Out of curiosity, to when does these articles and tales date? Were they not rewritten by the christian irish monks post 6th c.? Most of the published ones are dated from 19th c. onwards. However, when considering documents such as the Barddas and the Arthurian Legends, most of these can be dated post 12th c., despite the urgings of many that they were much older and dated back to the times prior to the extinction of the druids.



I am not sure what you mean by the 27th century CE. We are only in the 21st at the moment. I meant the 17th century CE. 27 was a major typo.


The documents provided have dates (when they were written down) that range from the 7th century CE to the 17th century CE.

*ALL* of them are contemporaneous with the survival of the Filidh (the inheritors of teh Druids). Every history and article that has ever been written is subjected to interpretations and changes based on the socio-political powers/fortunes of history itself. When one interprets a document such as the one's in the lists I've reference, one must consider who wrote it down, what their agenda was and what was going on at the time to influences its shape and content. That goes for every document whether it is in this list or some other. Obviously content will be subjected to forces that have little to do with fact at times. That's why one should read and study widely and deeply.

Just because these influences exist in *ALL* documents is no reason to ignore them and not to use them in understanding the ways of the past. We are lucky that so much has survived so that we can gain an understanding of what they knew, what they did and who they were. Not all of the documents were purely Christianized. The mission of the Filidh was to preserve the tales and histories just as they had always been told and preserved. Certainly, some of the documents were political footballs but not all.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

The subject matter in the Annals and some histories goes back to about the middle of the 2nd milenia BCE.

Other tales are set in the period between the 2nd century BCE and the 5th century CE.

Searles

[odubhain]

The Brehons and the Filidh were still using this traditional material to settle legal disputes and to augment public ritual as late at the 17th century CE in Ireland. Not all of these actions had anything to do with Christianity and the Church. Some of it had to do with native folk belief and practice as well as the earliest of family traditions.

Searles

[Tadrith]

I meant the 17th century CE. 27 was a major typo.


The documents provided have dates (when they were written down) that range from the 7th century CE to the 17th century CE.

*ALL* of them are contemporaneous with the survival of the Filidh (the inheritors of teh Druids). Every history and article that has ever been written is subjected to interpretations and changes based on the socio-political powers/fortunes of history itself. When one interprets a document such as the one's in the lists I've reference, one must consider who wrote it down, what their agenda was and what was going on at the time to influences its shape and content. That goes for every document whether it is in this list or some other. Obviously content will be subjected to forces that have little to do with fact at times. That's why one should read and study widely and deeply.

Just because these influences exist in *ALL* documents is no reason to ignore them and not to use them in understanding the ways of the past. We are lucky that so much has survived so that we can gain an understanding of what they knew, what they did and who they were. Not all of the documents were purely Christianized. The mission of the Filidh was to preserve the tales and histories just as they had always been told and preserved. Certainly, some of the documents were political footballs but not all.

Searles O'Dubhain

Searles,

I would not have wanted you to publish a book with such a typo!

I wanted to know, are there any documents from the time that the Druids existed that stated how the training was conducted?

I personally think that some of the Brehon laws, for a long period of time, surpassed most laws until modern western democracy became prevalent, and even then!

Cheers,
Tad

[odubhain]

Searles,

I would not have wanted you to publish a book with such a typo!

I wanted to know, are there any documents from the time that the Druids existed that stated how the training was conducted?

I personally think that some of the Brehon laws, for a long period of time, surpassed most laws until modern western democracy became prevalent, and even then!

Cheers,
Tad
Not to worry about the typo. It got in the posting because I'm posting to the Internet from less than ideal conditions (the mountains and woods of Western Massachusetts).

Some of the documents I've listed were from the time of the Druid class in Ireland. In particular, the "Scholar's Primer" and the "Ogham Tract" from the Book of Ballymote and the Book of Leinster. Outline some of the training of the Druids (mainly as Fili). In parts of other documents, teachings and practices are described and attributed to various Druids in Ireland from about 3500 years ago to about 1500 years ago. As I've previously stated, every document has to be understood within the framework of its socio-political environment as well as the many hands involved in preserving, translating or interpreting it.

There's a huge volume of laws and tales that link to other tracts on practices and traditions. I'm trying to sort these outand organize them using Ogham but the going is slow, being limited by my meager abilities in Old and Middle Irish and the rare flashes of understanding that come my way to interpret a kenning or cryptic remark.

Searles

[odubhain]

Here's more froma different book I'm writing:

Schools of the Filidh
These Druidic arts were continued in Irelands for thousands of years. They were still being taught in the schools of the Filidh as late as the 17th century CE. We have an example of what was taught froma student who had attended such a school (remarks are by Daniel Corkery):
In English there is an account in the Memoirs of the Marquis of Clanricarde (published 1722), which Professor Bergin believes to be trustworthy:
Concerning the poetical Seminary or School, from which I was carried away to clear other things that fell in my way, it was open only to such as were descended of Poets and reputed within their Tribes. And so was it with all the Schools of that kind in the Nation, being equal to the Number of Families that folled the said calling. But some more or less frequented for the difference of Professors, Conveniency, with other Reasons, and seldom any come but from remote parts, to be at a distance from Relations and other Acquaintences that might interrupt his Study. The Qualifications fist requir’d were reading well, writing the Mother-tongue, and a strong Memory. It was likewise necessary the Place should be in the solitary Recess of a Garden or within a Sept or Enclosure far out of the reach of any Noise, which an Intercourse of People might otherwise occasion. The Structure was a snug, low Hut, and beds in it at convenient Distances, each within a small Apartment without much Furniture of any kind, save only a Table, some Seats, and a Conveniency for Cloaths to hang upon. No Windows to let in the Day nor any Light at all us’d but that of Candles, and these brought in at a proper Season only. The Students upon thorough Examination being first divided into Classes, wherein a regard was had to every one’s Age, Genius, and the Scholling had before, if any at all, or otherwise. The Professors (one or moreas there was occasion) gave a Subject suitable to the Capacity of each class, determing the number of Rhimes, and clearingwhat was to be chiefly observed therein as to Syllables, Quartans, Concord, Correspondence, Termination and Union, each of which were restrian’d by peculiar Rules. The said Subject (either one or more as aforesaid) having een given over Night, they work’d it apart each by himself upon his own Bed, the whole next day in the Dark, till at a certain Hour in the Night, Lights being brought in, the committed it to writing. Being afterwards dress’d and come together into a large Room, where the Masters waited, each Scholar gave his Performance, which being corrected or approv’d of (according as it requir’d) either the same or fresh subject were given against the next day. The Part being over, the Students went to their Meal, Which was then serv’d up; and so, after some time spent in Conversation and other Diversions, each retired to his Rest, to be ready for the Business of the net Morning. Every Saturday and on the Eves of Festial Days they broke up and dispers’d themselves among the Gentlemen and rich Farmers of the Country, by whom they were well entertain’d and much made of, till they thought fit to take their leaves, in order to re-assume their Study. Nor was the People satisfied with affording this Hospitality alone; They sent in by turns every Week from far and near Liguors and all manner of Provision towards the Subsistence of the Academy, so that the chief Peot was at little or no Charges, but, on the contrary, got very well by it, besides the Presents made him by the Students upon their first coming, which was the cold season of the Year only, did that close Study last. At that time the Scholars broke up and repair’d each to his own Country, with an Attestation of his Behavior and Capacity from the chief Professor to those that had sent him.
The reason of laying the Study aforesaid in the Dark was doubtless to avoid the Distraction which Light and the variety of Objects represented thereby commonly occasions. This being prevented, the Faculties of the Soul occupied themselves solely upon the Subject in hand, and the Theme given; so that it was soon brought to some Perfection according to the Notions or Capacities of the Students. Yet the course was long and tedious, as we find, and it was six or seven Years before a Mastery or the last Degree was conferred, which you’ll the less admire upon considering the great Difficulty of the Art, the many kinds of their Poems, the Exactness and Nicety to be observ’d in each, which was necessary to render their Numbers soft, and the Harmony agreeable and pleasing to the Ear.
As every Professor, or chief Poet, depending on some Prince or great Lord, that had endowed his Tribe, he was under strict ties to him and Family, as to record in good Metre his Marriages, Births, Deaths, Acquisitions made in war and Peace, Exploits, and other remarkable things relating to the Same. He was likewise bound to offer an Elegy on the Decease of the said Lord, his consort, or any of their children, and a Marriage Song when there should be Occasion. But as to any Epick, or Heroick Verse to be made for any other Lord or Stranger, it was requir’d that at least a Paroemion or Metre therein, should be upon the Patron, or the Name in general …
The last Part to be done, which was the Action and Pronunciation of the Poem in Presence of the Maecenas, or the Principal Person it related to, was perform’d with a great deal of Ceremony in a Consort of Vocal and Instrumental musick. The poet himself said nothing, but directed and took care that everybody else did his Part right. The Bards having first had the Composition from him, got it well by Heart, and now pronounc’d it orderly, keeping even pace with a Harp, touch’d upon that Occasion; no other musical Instrument being allowed for the said Purpose that this alone, as being Masculin, much sweeter and fuller than any other.
In Gaelic Scotland those schools continued to exist into the eighteenth century; and Professor Bergin quotes from Martin’s Description of the Western Islands of Scotland:
I must not omit to relate their way of Study, which is very singular. They shut their Doors and Windows for a Day’s time and lie on their backs with a Stone upon their Belly, and Plads about their Heads, and their Eyes being cover’d they pump their Brains for Rhetorical Encomium or Panegyrick; and indeed they furnish such a Stile from this Dark Cell as is understood by very few; and if they purchase a couple of Horses as the reward of their Meditation, they think they have done a great Matter. The Poet or Bard had a Title to the Bridegroom’s upper Gard – that is, the Plad and Bonnet – but now he is satisfy’d with what the Bridegroom pleases to give him on such occasions.


Now compare this to how obtaining imbas forosnai (knowledge of illumination) is described (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4715/imbasforosnai):

" The passage on Imbas forosnai in Cormac's Glossary (Sanas Cormaic) was edited and translated by the late Whitley Stokes several times. First we may mention the text and translation of Laud 610, fol.79A, in his edition and translation of the Tripartite Life of St Patrick, Part II. (Rolls Series, 1887), p. 568f. Before this he had given a translation of the first part of the passage from the Lebor Brecc and the Book of Leinster in his introduction to Three Irish Glossaries (London, 1862), p. xxxvi. Finally, in 1894, he published the text and translation of the fragment of Cormac's Glossary in the Bodleian Library at Oxford in the Transactions of the Philological Society (1891-4). The translation of our passage occurs on p. 156f. As this series is not easily accessible to the general reader, I will give Stokes rendering of our passage from the Bodleian fragment in full. "

"Imbas Forosna, 'Manifestation that enlightens': (it) discovers what thing soever the poet likes and which he desires to reveal. Thus then is that done. The poet chews a piece of the red flesh of a pig, or a dog, or a cat, and puts it then on a flagstone behind the door-valve, and chants an incantation over it, and offers it to idol gods, and calls them to him, and leaves them not on the morrow, and then chants over his two palms, and calls again idol gods to him, that his sleep may not be disturbed. Then he puts his two palms on his two cheeks and sleeps. And men are watching him that he may not turn over and that no one may disturb him. And then it is revealed to him that for which he was (engaged) till the end of a nómad (three days and nights), or two or three for the long or the short (time?) that he may judge himself (to be) at the offering. And therefore it is called Imm-bas, to wit, a palm (bas) on this side and a palm on that around his head. Patrick banished that and the Tenm láida 'illumination of song,' and declared that no one who shall do that shall belong to heaven or earth, for it is a denial of baptism.
"Dichetal do chennaib, extempore incantation, however, that was left, in right of art, for it is science that causes it, and no offering to devils is necessary, but a declaration from the ends of his bones at once."

A translation of the first part of the entry was also made by K. Meyer, and published in the Archaeological Review, Vol. I, 1888, p. 303, footnote. As this translation differs in some details from Stokes's, and as it is also somewhat inaccessible, I quote it below for purposes of comparison.
"The Imbas Forosnai sets forth whatever seems good to the seer (file) and what he desires to make known. It is done thus. The seer chews a piece of the red flesh of a pig, or a dog, or a cat, and then places it on a flagstone behind the door. He sings an incantation over it, offers it to the false gods, and then calls them to him. And he leaves them not on the next day, and chants then on his two hands, and again calls his false gods to him, lest they should disturb his sleep. And he puts his two hands over his two cheeks till he falls asleep. And they watch by him lest no one overturn him and disturb him till everything he wants to know is revealed to him, to the end of nine days, or of twice or thrice that time, or, however long he was judged at the offering."

In another place I have seen where the Poets (Filidh/Druids) held a "memory stone" upon their chests while learning a work or creating one through the poetical arts.

Searles

[Tadrith]

You have to understand that I am extremely skeptical when it comes to claims of hard evidence of the Druids teachings. I was shocked at what the revisionists did in the 17-18th century and have difficulty believing references to documents that pre-date the greek's first encounter with the beaker people. I also hesitate to take any documents prior to the 7th century, that claim to discuss about druidic secrets and teachings, seriously.

However, the information you provided is useful, and perhaps I'll find something in it of value when I get time to research it more in depth. Truly, I hope that my discoveries lead me to the conclusions that you have made. I tend to approach things from an archaeological perspective: I was amazed at the difference between what people say they do, and what they really do (check out the garbage project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucson_Garbage_Project))

Thanks,
Tad

(the 27th century is still recurring, it must be in the document you pasted).

[odubhain]

You have to understand that I am extremely skeptical when it comes to claims of hard evidence of the Druids teachings. I was shocked at what the revisionists did in the 17-18th century and have difficulty believing references to documents that pre-date the greek's first encounter with the beaker people. I also hesitate to take any documents prior to the 7th century, that claim to discuss about druidic secrets and teachings, seriously.

In Ireland, there were no Irish revisionists in the 17th-18h century. The traditions continued from a thousand years before. The English were busy then attempting to burn the books, destroy the language and culture and basicallytake the land for themselves.

The traditional tales have been preserved in Ireland for a long time. Before the 7th century we have histories written by Greeks and Romans about the Druids. They are as truthful as any histories.

However, the information you provided is useful, and perhaps I'll find something in it of value when I get time to research it more in depth. Truly, I hope that my discoveries lead me to the conclusions that you have made. I tend to approach things from an archaeological perspective: I was amazed at the difference between what people say they do, and what they really do (check out the garbage project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucson_Garbage_Project))

Thanks,
Tad

(the 27th century is still recurring, it must be in the document you pasted).

I fixed the 27th century typo again and will fix it in the source file (it's not the latest or obviously the most correct).

People are more and more duplicious in their pretense to honesty aren't they? It wasn't always this way. Fifty years ago, a person's word was more valued by the person and those hearing it. This is not to say that the human animal has a great hold on truth or perception, but one can hope for an exception at times. :-)

Searles O'Dubhain

[Twig]

Maybe there should be an other choice in there to. Just because you where meant to be something doesn't mean you can't choose to turn your back on it and walk away.


Aye. Or in my case I didn't choose the path. Rather, the Path chose ME!

However they...it...whatever gave me the choice to accept or deny my future.

I'm glad I did what I did.

Peace,
Twig
:elf:

[Chaos Hawk]

That's me too - the path chose me.

[Branwen_Yr_Hardd]

I was born Welsh my feet followed the path most befitting from there.

[Morgaine_cla]

Hello.

I've finally decided it's time to come out of the closet.

I've been here (MW) for awhile but I've not posted much, though I've been a student and practitioner of Faery ('native') Druidry for about 20 years now... I admit, my observations of other Druids have made me reluctant to jump into the fray. The Druidry I practice is 'traditional' (i.e. handed down either through families or, as in my case, from teachers to student), a practice apparently held in contempt in many 'Neo' circles. No one relishes being the object of other people's contempt, especially when it seems totally unwarranted. Still, there are enough differences in worldview and practice to make bridging the gap between us through 'simple' explanations fairly difficult... Nonetheless, I thought I would try.

While the Druidry I practice is mainly taught by example and by word-of-mouth, we are each expected to seek our own verification (from academia, science, and folklore) for traditional teachings, as well as for our own intuitive work. Thus while I have not committed them to memory and do not use them as a primary guide for my own Druid practice, I am not unfamiliar with the various extant MSS. on (or by) Celtic Druids.

I'm interested in what Searles has posted about some Druidism continuing into the 1700s, since this accords with what our own lore teaches. I've also come across similar references about the Irish, and to a lesser extent the Welsh and Scottish, and I was wondering if you'd come across any verification for the latter claims. Unfortunately, when I initially found them I was too naive to realise with what frequency things appear and disappear from the Internet. I found some priceless gems early on that I deeply regret not bookmarking or printing, and I am hoping you might point me in the right direction to find them once again.

Any clues for finding a starting place for further exploration would be deeply appreciated.

Be well and be blessed,
Morgaine

[Morgaine_cla]

Gosh, where to begin...

I understand why people think nothing of the Druids survived and it's all reconstructed... but I also understand why other people dispute this. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that most of us are unwilling to accept old toothless codgers living in dead fishing villages and wearing mismatched socks as being the inheritors of the Druids and Bards, even if they're out there in plain view practising their dead religion. It's easier to lump them in with general folklore than it is to say, "Here they are, folks: the DRUIDS!"... Still, they are there. Old bony codgers standing facing the ocean in frumpy, tattered clothes, reciting hundreds of stories, songs, and poems to no one simply because that's what you do if you want to remember that many stories in that kind of detail... even where there is no one to listen anymore because they are all online talking about how the Druidism is reinvented.

Some great books have come out in the last five years documenting these folks in words and pictures, trying to preserve something of what they do and know before they die. Try the folklore and anthropology sections of your bookstore... but be prepared. It's heart-breaking.

It's quite late here, but I will try to post again soon with some of the titles. In the meanwhile, be well and be blessed!