weekly topic & discussion #1

[Rudas Starblaze]

since most people have the wrong impression of Satanism and the Satanic Bible i figured a weekly topic & discussion would be a good idea so bare with me if it sucks!

im gonna try to go one verse per topic but that depends on how short and to the point they are. and depending on how well this first one goes, i may go to 5 verses at a time (if copywrite laws allow) and im sure that when we get into the full chapters in the SB it will be even more interesting. FYI: i will not be posting the chapters due to copywrite laws but i will provide the link directly to the SB so for those of you who do not have a copy... yet!

http://www.occultresource.com/pdfs/satan.pdf
The Book of Satan
chapter I, verse 1.

"In this arid wilderness of steel and stone I raise up my voice that you may hear. To the East and to the West I beckon. To the North and to the South I show a sign proclaiming: Death to the weakling, wealth to the strong."

[Rudas Starblaze]

my thoughts on the meaning of this verse.

stand strong and bold. achieve whatever you can in life.

[Shadow Angel]

my thoughts on the meaning of this verse.

stand strong and bold. achieve whatever you can in life.

Hell yes.:cheers:
Great idea RS.x

[Xentor]

Who draws the line between weak and strong? Where is it drawn? What are the criteria? How does one recognise them?

[Rudas Starblaze]

Who draws the line between weak and strong? Where is it drawn? What are the criteria? How does one recognise them?

think of it like guinness vrs. bud light!:lol:

[Xentor]

think of it like guinness vrs. bud light!:lol:

That's a disappointing cop-out.

So here is something easier: if you hit me, I turn the other cheek. Does that make me weak or strong? If you hit me twice, I hit back. Does that make me weak or strong?

[Shatril]

This has some rather interesting language, and in the wrong hands I can see where this might take a warped mind and send them over the edge. Thinking that they should kill the wealing and take their wealth, and Xentor has a point; who decides what is weak?

Rudy your interpretation is great in this, as I see that this is a restatement of the law of eveloution. Only the strong survive. However, this does not require any intervention from humans.

Let's take the example of the Butterfly vs the Mammoth. The Butterfly survives, however, the strong Mammoth is extinct. We need to make sure that we are not the ones making the decision about the strong and the weak, as we are NOT capable of this, as we may consider a butterfly weak, and here we would be wrong.

Shatril

[Stormbeard]

Who draws the line between weak and strong? Where is it drawn? What are the criteria? How does one recognise them?

Weakness is being stepped on. Strength is refusing to be stepped on.

[Stormbeard]

if you hit me, I turn the other cheek. Does that make me weak or strong?

Weak. The other person's actions are unacceptable. You are not there to be hit.

If you hit me twice, I hit back. Does that make me weak or strong?

Still weak, you shouldn't have waited until the second time to strike back.

[Sesen]

Strength can mean many different things besides physical prowess. In a situation such as the one mentioned, I think the strong person will be the one who knows when to hit back and when to remain calm. The stronger person will always be the one who makes the decision themselves instead of allowing their emotions to decide for them. Also I agree with Shatril, I don't see this verse as a proclamation to go out and crush the weak, but more of a some what obvious statement. The strong survive, the weak barely get by. Sometimes strength is shown by helping out the weak.


I think this is an excellent idea by the way...:cheers: ...I don't know nearly enough about Satanism.

[Stormbeard]

I don't see this verse as a proclamation to go out and crush the weak

Oh but that's so much more fun :(


But seriously, you're right. Strength isn't about who has the biggest muscles, or the biggest guns. It's not about stepping on people to get to the top.

It's about making decisions. Doing the right thing is one of the biggest strengths of all.

[ShadowStalker]

Who draws the line between weak and strong?


You do. Strength comes in many forms... I think what this is telling us is that you have to choose the appropriate means in a given situation; making the right choice leads you to greater things.

Where is it drawn?

Who said that there is a definitive line drawn in the sand? Can it not be moved, adjusted, re-evaluated?

What are the criteria? How does one recognise them?

I don't believe that there are set criteria for strength... it comes in many forms and many guises. For example - a person who is crippled may not have physical strength... but have a core of steel, an iron will, etc... which would make them strong. Or, a person who is physically strong may not have the mental fortitude to arm themselves in a battle of wits... etc.

True strength, at least to me, is doing what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, in order to preserve a person's beliefs and ideals, protect those they love, and/or themselves.

[Philosophia]

http://www.occultresource.com/pdfs/satan.pdf
The Book of Satan
chapter I, verse 1.

"In this arid wilderness of steel and stone I raise up my voice that you may hear. To the East and to the West I beckon. To the North and to the South I show a sign proclaiming: Death to the weakling, wealth to the strong."

This statement is open ended and not complete. Is it talking about people, actions, or thoughts? Is the "death to the weakling" a statement about banishing impulses that are passive in nature? Because being weak and strong is entirely based on perception.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Strength can mean many different things besides physical prowess. In a situation such as the one mentioned, I think the strong person will be the one who knows when to hit back and when to remain calm. The stronger person will always be the one who makes the decision themselves instead of allowing their emotions to decide for them. Also I agree with Shatril, I don't see this verse as a proclamation to go out and crush the weak, but more of a some what obvious statement. The strong survive, the weak barely get by. Sometimes strength is shown by helping out the weak.


I think this is an excellent idea by the way...:cheers: ...I don't know nearly enough about Satanism.

i was sooo gonna post pretty much the same thing you just said after reading what everyone has posted!

like Stormbeard and Sesen said. being strong doesnt only mean physically. it also means being intelectual, having a motive, and being determined. the butterfly and the mammoth, sure the mammoth was physically strong, but the mammoth wasnt designed to be able to put itself in a state of suspended animation for long periods of time like the butterfly in its cocoon before its transformation. but hey, thats animal adaptation, not human behavior.

strength is determined by your mind, motivation, and determination. ive seen little 105lbs guys with no fighting experience beat the living hell out of 200lbs well trained military men. ive seen farm boys who've never fought another person a day in their life beat the living hell out of 5th degree martial artists.

being weak isnt just physical either. if you turn the other cheek to everything and never stand up for yourself or what you believe, thats weakness. even if its in a fight, if ya lose, as long as you tried, you will always gain some respect from someone. ive seen bullies pick fights with "weaklings" and when the weakling stood up and tried to fight back and lost, he still earned respect from the bully and never had a problem after that.

its all a matter of knowing when to back down, and when to stand up for what you believe. that is strength.

[GEBS]

Is it talking about people, actions, or thoughts?

I definitely see it as strength in thought and action. Think about what you are doing and saying. Don't follow. Challenge. Thought leads to success.

[Sesen]

Thinking about this some more has brought to my mind the quote " The unexamined life is not worth living" and I think Socrates is a good example of this position in action. Each of us has our own strengths and weaknesses and by knowing them we are in a position to take advantage of them and change them, if we want, to better reflect the person we want to be. You can't really tell a persons strength or weakness by outward appearances alone. Going along with the mammoth and butterfly type idea, what about a cockroach. There is no telling how many cockroaches get squished on a daily basis, and they are certainly nothing to run away in fear of, but if and when those bombs go off......And what greater wealth and empowerment is there then being fully aware of who you are, proud of it, and expressing it completely in your every action. To me that is strength. To do otherwise or to deny yourself would be pointless, a good example of weakness, and in my opinion a life not worth living. Death to the weakling, and wealth to the strong. :cheers:

[Shatril]

Strength can mean many different things besides physical prowess. In a situation such as the one mentioned, I think the strong person will be the one who knows when to hit back and when to remain calm. The stronger person will always be the one who makes the decision themselves instead of allowing their emotions to decide for them. Also I agree with Shatril, I don't see this verse as a proclamation to go out and crush the weak, but more of a some what obvious statement. The strong survive, the weak barely get by. Sometimes strength is shown by helping out the weak.


I think this is an excellent idea by the way...:cheers: ...I don't know nearly enough about Satanism.

I wish my mind hadn't gone straight to the obvious definitions of strength and weakness. You are a wise person Sesen, thanks for your post, and the others who have commented. You have to understand that I am a protector of the weak, so this one hit me where I live. However, the weak that I talk about are not physically weak, but mentally and spiritually weak. I find this all very interesting also. Satanism has never really interested me right up until NOW.

Thanks Rudas for the opportunity to learn more, and realize that a truth is a truth no matter where it comes from. By the way, the comment about humans, was to indicate that humans should stay out of the practice of animal conservation. Knut is example.

Love to you all
Shatril

[Stormbeard]

The weak must find strength, or they will perish and fail.

[Xentor]

once the weak have perished, who's next?

[Xentor]

When do you sleep? Doesn't it tire you out to have to be vigilant all the time? To continuously study those around in order to remain challenging? To be compelled to react to those you challenge, so you'll keep from becoming boring? And doesn't that make you a follower of the same people you claim to lead? A master without slaves is no master.

[Philosophia]

I definitely see it as strength in thought and action. Think about what you are doing and saying. Don't follow. Challenge. Thought leads to success.

I agree with you but why does this equal strength? Why does questioning something equal strength? If we follow this verse, isn't that going against being strong because we're not challenging it?

I hope I'm not being difficult. I'm trying to understand what people perceive as strength. From the posts in this thread, it seems that people are put into two groups; strong and weak. To me, thats just too limiting. A strong person, either emotionally, physically, and mentally, may be weak in many aspects or vice versa. I guess the issue I'm having is that its too limiting for me. What I said earlier still stands: Being weak and strong is entirely based upon a person's judgment and perception. So who's to say we're correct in making that judgment call?

[Cassie]

" Death to the weakling, wealth to the strong."
I have problems with this concept for the same reasons that Philosophia and Xentor have pointed out.

I have found most of the replies in this thread wise and enlightening, but it seems to me that most people are not thinking of strength and weakness in the way that most people would define them.
Wouldn't "Death to the foolish, wealth to the wise" be a more accurate description of what people are actually talking about here?

[Stormbeard]

once the weak have perished, who's next?

Only the strong will survive. Natural selection.

[Stormbeard]

Wouldn't "Death to the foolish, wealth to the wise" be a more accurate description of what people are actually talking about here?

It's more than just intelligence and wisdom though. It's about the complete package.

[Stormbeard]

When do you sleep? Doesn't it tire you out to have to be vigilant all the time? To continuously study those around in order to remain challenging? To be compelled to react to those you challenge, so you'll keep from becoming boring? And doesn't that make you a follower of the same people you claim to lead? A master without slaves is no master.

No.

[Cassie]

Only the strong will survive. Natural selection.
But that goes back to the question of what we define as strong.
On a physical level for example Professor Stephan Hawking would be long dead or extremely helpless and unable to comunicate if it were left to natural selection alone, which would be a great loss to physics and our understanding of the universe.

[ShadowStalker]

I definitely see it as strength in thought and action. Think about what you are doing and saying. Don't follow. Challenge. Thought leads to success.

Thought alone, or thought followed by appropriate action?

[Xentor]

No.

Ooh, such an enlighting response. :rolleyes:

I asked a bunch of questions. Each of them could be answered with "no". Did you notice that some of them contradict each other? So that saying "no" to some, means saying "yes" to others? And thus, you contradicted yourself in this one single word?

I find that simply amazing. Disappointing too. Here is my chance to learn from those who call themselves Satanists, and all one of them can come up with, is "no". Very disappointing.

[GEBS]

When do you sleep? Doesn't it tire you out to have to be vigilant all the time? To continuously study those around in order to remain challenging? To be compelled to react to those you challenge, so you'll keep from becoming boring? And doesn't that make you a follower of the same people you claim to lead? A master without slaves is no master.


I challenge myself. I lead myself. I master myself. It's not about others for me. So I don't know if I can answer those questions the way you may have expected me to.

When I say not to follow I mean not to accept what I am told without first challenging it. I need to put thought into things before I adopt them as my own beliefs.

[Xentor]

I challenge myself. I lead myself. I master myself. It's not about others for me. So I don't know if I can answer those questions the way you may have expected me to.

When I say not to follow I mean not to accept what I am told without first challenging it. I need to put thought into things before I adopt them as my own beliefs.

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you!

I too think about what I'm told before accepting it. That's one thing we might have in common. Looking forward to other similarities!

[Stormbeard]

Ooh, such an enlighting response. :rolleyes:

I asked a bunch of questions. Each of them could be answered with "no". Did you notice that some of them contradict each other? So that saying "no" to some, means saying "yes" to others? And thus, you contradicted yourself in this one single word?

I find that simply amazing. Disappointing too. Here is my chance to learn from those who call themselves Satanists, and all one of them can come up with, is "no". Very disappointing.

The simplest answer is the best. You are not challenging us with your contradictory questions, as they answer themselves. If you really must know a detailed answer to each one.


When do you sleep?
Usually between the hours of 12am and 7am.

Doesn't it tire you out to have to be vigilant all the time?
When vigilence is a way of life, it is not tiresome, no. Does the tortoise ever tire of carrying his shell?

To continuously study those around in order to remain challenging?
I do not need to study all those around me. They are of no interest nor consequence to my life. When our paths cross, then I shall perhaps begin to study.

To be compelled to react to those you challenge, so you'll keep from becoming boring?
That's not what this is about at all.

And doesn't that make you a follower of the same people you claim to lead? A master without slaves is no master.
See previous statement

Were your questions phrased in a manner less patronising, perhaps in future I could spare them more time.

[Xentor]

The simplest answer is the best. You are not challenging us with your contradictory questions, as they answer themselves. If you really must know a detailed answer to each one.
Thanks!

Usually between the hours of 12am and 7am. When vigilence is a way of life, it is not tiresome, no. Does the tortoise ever tire of carrying his shell?
Exactly my point, as you may have noticed. The tortoise doesn't carry its shell whilst asleep: it simply sleeps. The same with challenging people or oneself: you can't challenge anyone whilst asleep. So maybe you're challenging most of the time, but probably not all of the time.

I do not need to study all those around me. They are of no interest nor consequence to my life. When our paths cross, then I shall perhaps begin to study.
Weird. Then how do you know your method has the desired effect? Finding out the hard way has its downsides. I'd rather know in advance, so I can adjust my methods. But that takes time and effort, which makes it improbable that one could keep it up all of the time.

That's not what this is about at all.


See previous statementThat's weird: I clearly see the post to which I reacted. It is what it is about.

Were your questions phrased in a manner less patronising, perhaps in future I could spare them more time.
I'm sure my patronising is no problem for any real Satanist. ;)

[Stormbeard]

Exactly my point, as you may have noticed. The tortoise doesn't carry its shell whilst asleep: it simply sleeps. The same with challenging people or oneself: you can't challenge anyone whilst asleep. So maybe you're challenging most of the time, but probably not all of the time.

You're just being facetious now. Are you actually suggesting that we should have written "We're always challenging except when we're sleeping, eating, hiking"?

Weird. Then how do you know your method has the desired effect? Finding out the hard way has its downsides. I'd rather know in advance, so I can adjust my methods. But that takes time and effort, which makes it improbable that one could keep it up all of the time

I don't understand what you're getting at. Method?

That's weird: I clearly see the post to which I reacted. It is what it is about.

Satanism is not about 'keeping from being boring' at all. We didn't choose this path just to be interesting. The very suggestion of such a thing is an insult.

I'm sure my patronising is no problem for any real Satanist. ;)

You're wearing my patience very thin. Begone with you.

[Shadow Angel]

Ok here are my random thoughts on this.

I think we all can be a mixture of both, weak and strong, where I may show weakness in some things, in other things I show true strength, I think it is about how you see yourself- are you weak or are you strong?

I feel weak sometimes, yet I know I am strong. I have proven this to myself time and time again.

If someone hits me they are weak, and I am too if I hit them back without first considering my options. One may even call this wisdom.

If I allow them to hit me and then hit them back we are both weak, if I walk away and cool down I am strong, because my reaction might possibly be either one of two; fear or retaliation; and the point is I am recognizing and understanding my self.

I don't have a problem admitting when I am weak, I do have a weakness to ask for help when I have a problem however, and perhaps even weak to viewing a way out of a situation, but I don't give up, and that makes me strong.
Belief/faith its the same thing, do you believe you can do it or dont you? but it goes beyond belief -its about knowing, about how you present yourself, how you are.

''I think therefore I am.''

Of course one could be deluding themselves into thinking they are strong at a time when they aren't, and everything goes horribly wrong, but you could say they are weak for not allowing all the facts to be known, to not understanding the bare truths, and accepting them.

As for criteria, there is no such thing. You either know or you dont.
If I 'think' something or a situation is impossible, then it will be.
If I 'believe' It can be rectified or sorted, then I stand a better chance of it going to plan, etc.
If I fail to think and fail to believe then it IS pointless.
I have 'faith' in my self to do whatever is necessary in a situation.
I 'know' that 1} thinga are never as they may first appear, and 2} always must I expect the unexpected, then, when I 'know' I have these two covered and understood, and I am 'DETERMINED' then I have little-nothing to FEAR.

ok so reading this thread and its like whoa, I didn't expect peoples posts to be ripped apart the way they have in here since my last post in here after RS.
Especially when all they are trying to do is to learn,-my view; the strong are willing to learn, ask questions, some of them difficult yes, but they ask them nonetheless or how do they learn?!
The weak knock will them down, mocking their every step....~sighs~


Well anyway, Here is my ideas, views whatever for you to pick apart.
Im heading off to bed it is late here.Good night, Hail S and ETD.
[embrace the dark]

Shadow Angel.:)

[Xentor]

You're just being facetious now. Are you actually suggesting that we should have written "We're always challenging except when we're sleeping, eating, hiking"?

I don't understand what you're getting at. Method?

Satanism is not about 'keeping from being boring' at all. We didn't choose this path just to be interesting. The very suggestion of such a thing is an insult.
Well that's the thing, you know. I assume that the Satanist thinks he's the strong one. Maybe I'm wrong, but for the sake of my argument let's assume I'm right and the Satanist applies "strong" to himself and "weak" to others.

If you're strong, you've got to be strong all the time. For, as you said, the weak shall find a way to strength or they shall perish. One of the ways to be strong, as said by GEBS, is to lead, to challenge, and never follow. Combining that: strong all the time, never weak.

I argue that one can't do that. Not all the time. We're physically limited. Thus we have to be weak at times. We have to be vulnerable and put our trust into other people's hands, at times. And that brings about one paradox.

There's another paradox about having to be challenging all the time. Even if all you do is challenge yourself, or challenge everything you read or hear, I don't see that as a sign of strength or independance. I think it very depending behaviour. Like a dog seeing the ball and barking at its owner: throw it! throw it! An independent dog would've thrown the ball for itself and not wait for its owner.

Thus I tend to agree with Shadow Angel: you have to be a bit of both: both strong and weak. And that's the heart of the first paradox: the weak shall perish... but hey, I can't be strong all the time so I too shall perish... surely not?

You're wearing my patience very thin. Begone with you.
Try me.

[azzeenasman]

everyone is weak at some point in life.

dinosaurs were strong too,,and coach roaches weak.

You can squash a coach roach with little effort,but squashing a dinosaur might be a bit harder.

But there arent too many dinosaurs around.

As for coach roaches,,there are too many of them little boogers running around.

Hitler thought he was strong too,,he glorified might and strength,,but he is a memory,,and the Jew lives on.

As for following,,we are all following someone.We are all following someones teaching,,someones ideas,,someones thoughts.

So,,,,being strong,,and being smart,,arent the same.Its not always the strong who survives,,but the one who endures,,and lasts.

Life is constantly changing,,the strong today,,,are the weak tomorow.Nobody stays strong forever,We are strong in our own season,,like a fruit,,but in due time,,we begin to become weak,,,and another will take our place.

So you may think yourself strong today,,but tomorow you may not be so strong,,and hopefully you will have the wisdom to know that.

[Sesen]

Since the cockroach thing got brought up I thought I should mention..that didn't really fit in with what I was trying to say in my last post. Ever since I read the butterfly and mammoth thing that morning I couldn't get the image of a cockroach surviving the radiation exposure from nuclear bomb out of my head..so I just threw the damn thing in with the post...:hahugh: ..Anyway. What I was trying to say others have come along and said more elegantly, but to clarify my own thoughts. Everyone has both strengths and weaknesses so it is impossible to say who is strong and who is weak. Such a thing is subjective anyway. What is a strength to one person will be a weakness to another and vice versa. Because of this I would interpret that verse as only applying to you, the person reading it, who wants to apply it to your life. In that case I think it would mean strengthen your weaknesses and be proud of your strengths. If you change a weakness to a strength, that weakness no longer exists within you. Death to weaklings. Thats where I see Socrates quote coming into play. By knowing ourselves, we know both our strengths and weaknesses and are in position to do such a thing. Or maybe I'm reading too much into such a short verse..I tend to do that, I've often written pages of interpretations based on a single sentence..:huh: . Thats the way I see it anyway. And glad to see this discussion took off..looking forward to next weeks.:lol:

[Stormbeard]

Strength is about more than physical power. It is wisdom and knowledge.

Knowing your weaknesses is a strength. To believe that we are without weakness would be foolish. We are mortal, after all. No man is bulletproof.

Hitler was strong, he commanded one of the strongest and most threatening forces the world has ever known. However the allied forces were stronger.

The one who lasts and endures is the stronger one. Strength and endurance walk hand in hand.

[Rudas Starblaze]

wow! this idea has turned out fun! maybe im smart and have good ideas after all!lol

(just to lighten the mood Xen, im gonna pick this post apart but its not meant to be taken seriously, its just for fun!:lol: )

When do you sleep?
when im tired.lol

Doesn't it tire you out to have to be vigilant all the time?
well sure! its ruff flying around the world beating up good guys!:lol:

To continuously study those around in order to remain challenging?
thats what the internet, police records, and government files are for!:lol:

To be compelled to react to those you challenge, so you'll keep from becoming boring?
nah, i keep everyone insterested by blurting out strange insanities that have nothing to do with anything... much like this post!!:lol:

And doesn't that make you a follower of the same people you claim to lead? A master without slaves is no master.
exactly! i tried following myself once but my ass looked funny when i walked and i couldnt stop laughing!:lol:

[Stormbeard]

Does that make me 'the serious one' then Rude?

[Shadow Angel]

Does that make me 'the serious one' then Rude?

Nothing wrong in a little humour now and then, knowing when to be humorous and when to be serious, that is the thing.
Besides does lighten the mood most of the time, and this thread was getting a little on the hostile side, I think.

So smile people, its not the end of the world just yet.

:)

[Stormbeard]

So smile people, its not the end of the world just yet.

That's what you think. :noway:

[Rudas Starblaze]

That's what you think. :noway:

well, i still have to take over the US and then NATO, and then the rest of the world first so i think you all have a little time!:lol:

[Philosophia]

So does strength equal right/good and weak equal wrong/bad?

[Shadow Angel]

So does strength equal right/good and weak equal wrong/bad?

Good question. I dont think weakness makes you wrong, perhaps naive to what you are possibly capable of? Im not sure Id call being weak wrong, or being strong right, as I already said we all have our strengths and our weaknesses and I dont believe it is about wrong or right,more that being strong or recognising your strength or weakness is an ability that each of us has or does not have.

Im going to think about this concept some more, get a better view on what I think then I will come and post again.
Thanks for this question.:cheers:

[ShadowStalker]

So does strength equal right/good and weak equal wrong/bad?

I think it depends on the given situation.

Sometimes displaying weakness is a strength in and of itself, if that makes sense.

[Morr]

"In this arid wilderness of steel and stone I raise up my voice that you may hear. To the East and to the West I beckon. To the North and to the South I show a sign proclaiming: Death to the weakling, wealth to the strong."


Death to the stupid idiots who are ignorant enough to try and hurt me (and mine) or bring me down, reward through trust and respect to those who earn it by means of honor, truth and loyalty.


Death preferably through means of impalement and horrid torture would be a plus.



Though I don't dub myself a Satanist by any means, I find that I might agree with very few things it holds within it. At this point though, I don't know if Satanism as a whole is something that would exist at all had Christianity not existed, and I have yet to figure out the maturity of many Satanists (though of course, not all), seeing as parts of Satanism itself, to me, seem like they have been created upon a very immature basis.

I might be wrong, but that is my impression so far. My husband has The Satanic Bible laying around somewhere, I plan on picking it up one day soon. Its on the list!

[ShadowStalker]

Death to the stupid idiots who are ignorant enough to try and hurt me (and mine) or bring me down, reward through trust and respect to those who earn it by means of honor, truth and loyalty.




:)

[Cassie]

Strength is about more than physical power. It is wisdom and knowledge.

Knowing your weaknesses is a strength. To believe that we are without weakness would be foolish. We are mortal, after all. No man is bulletproof.

Hitler was strong, he commanded one of the strongest and most threatening forces the world has ever known. However the allied forces were stronger.

The one who lasts and endures is the stronger one. Strength and endurance walk hand in hand.
I agree with most of what you say above in a general way but I wonder how this really fits in with the phrase "death to the weak, wealth to the strong"?

Firstly your phrase that I have bolded seems to imply that strength and endurance can only be measured with hindsight and in relation to something else.

Should Hitler be admired because he was strong?
He certainly was strong for a long time. If he had ultimately won the war, would he have been deserving of respect? Would his victory have made his deeds any less evil? Personally, I don't think so. Thus I suppose I am saying that right and wrong are far more important concepts than relative strength and weakness.

I can think of plenty of examples of people who were weak in relation to the powers of their day, and suffered as a result. Witches killed by Christians, Christians killed by Roman Pagans, Bosnian Moslems killed by Serbs, Refugees in Dafur killed and raped by various military groups...

The strong are often the oppressors. Do we need to wait several generations to pass judgement on such people?

[Rudas Starblaze]

Death to the stupid idiots who are ignorant enough to try and hurt me (and mine) or bring me down, reward through trust and respect to those who earn it by means of honor, truth and loyalty.


Death preferably through means of impalement and horrid torture would be a plus.
damn straight!!!!



Though I don't dub myself a Satanist by any means, I find that I might agree with very few things it holds within it. At this point though, I don't know if Satanism as a whole is something that would exist at all had Christianity not existed, and I have yet to figure out the maturity of many Satanists (though of course, not all), seeing as parts of Satanism itself, to me, seem like they have been created upon a very immature basis.

I might be wrong, but that is my impression so far. My husband has The Satanic Bible laying around somewhere, I plan on picking it up one day soon. Its on the list!

as for this part, one has to remember that christianity didnt come into existance until after Christ's death. Satan has been around since the begining. so to me personally, there is more to satanism than LeVay and others have written. ;)

[Rudas Starblaze]

So does strength equal right/good and weak equal wrong/bad?

like i said before, strenght equals knowing when to back down, and when to stand up for what you believe.

weak equals never doing that which i just said. which can mean standing up and fighting even though you know you are wrong. and not standing up and fighting when you know you are right.

[Stormbeard]

I agree with most of what you say above in a general way but I wonder how this really fits in with the phrase "death to the weak, wealth to the strong"?

I feel that people are somehow taking the above statement at face value. You've got to remember that The Satanic Bible is filled with incredibly dramatic languge. It's a very effective language device to keep people reading, and also to excite readers (in the same way that business executives use quite heavy war metaphors in business to give the image of strength). LeVay is not suggesting that we all go out and murder weak people for being weak.

I will continue to address parts of your post later on tonight.

[Rudas Starblaze]

I feel that people are somehow taking the above statement at face value. You've got to remember that The Satanic Bible is filled with incredibly dramatic languge. It's a very effective language device to keep people reading, and also to excite readers (in the same way that business executives use quite heavy war metaphors in business to give the image of strength). LeVay is not suggesting that we all go out and murder weak people for being weak.

that is very true my friend! LeVay pretty much says not to take the SB at face value but to think about whats been said and compare it to youre own real life scenarios. in other words, do whats right by YOU, not do whats right by someone else.:)

[ShadowStalker]

in other words, do whats right by YOU, not do whats right by someone else.:)

Best statement you've made all day. :)

[Rudas Starblaze]

Best statement you've made all day. :)

lol, every statement i make is the best! sometimes it takes longer for people to realize just how right i am!:hahugh:

[ShadowStalker]

lol, every statement i make is the best! sometimes it takes longer for people to realize just how right i am!:hahugh:

*shakes head and rolls eyes*

Right. :cheers:

[Stormbeard]

Firstly your phrase that I have bolded seems to imply that strength and endurance can only be measured with hindsight and in relation to something else.

It is not the role of the satanist to ensure or classify the weakness of others, simply to ensure the strength of his self.

Should Hitler be admired because he was strong?

Hitler was a very clever man, with a number of flaws. I personally respect him as a military leader, but do not agree with his thoughts or views.

He certainly was strong for a long time. If he had ultimately won the war, would he have been deserving of respect?

I believe so. His goals were certainly ambitious.

Would his victory have made his deeds any less evil?

One mans morality is another man's disgust.

Personally, I don't think so. Thus I suppose I am saying that right and wrong are far more important concepts than relative strength and weakness.

Again, simply a question of morality. Moral strength is certainly a factor. Are your morals strong enough for you to not step on a whole village of african workers, even if there's a lot of money to be made? Strength (in this case, at least) is subjective. What makes a strong businessman, may not make a strong humanitarian, for example. It is up to the individual to define what makes him strong, and to resolve to repair his weaknesses.

I can think of plenty of examples of people who were weak in relation to the powers of their day, and suffered as a result. Witches killed by Christians, Christians killed by Roman Pagans, Bosnian Moslems killed by Serbs, Refugees in Dafur killed and raped by various military groups...

Again, the literal meaning of strength is not really what this chapter is about.

The strong are often the oppressors.

Simply winning is not a display of strength. For example, beating up on a blind man would not be a display of your strength. It would be a display of your weakness.

[Morr]

as for this part, one has to remember that christianity didnt come into existance until after Christ's death. Satan has been around since the begining. so to me personally, there is more to satanism than LeVay and others have written. ;)


But..

Satan originated in Jewish lore (Book of Job for example).
He is not and was not what Christianity makes of him. He was a servant of God, an Angel like any other Angel. He had a specific job to do: Test people's faith in God, and report back to God about it.

Therefore, Satanism as it is today (From what I know of it), has nothing to do with the original Satan.

[Philosophia]

like i said before, strenght equals knowing when to back down, and when to stand up for what you believe.

weak equals never doing that which i just said. which can mean standing up and fighting even though you know you are wrong. and not standing up and fighting when you know you are right.

Okay, but why is that classified as "strength"?

[Stormbeard]

Therefore, Satanism as it is today (From what I know of it), has nothing to do with the original Satan.

That is the first thing that one must understand about Satanism. LeVay goes into the reasoning behind the name 'Satanism' in some detail in The Satanic Bible.

[Cassie]

Again, the literal meaning of strength is not really what this chapter is about.



And yet strength and weakness are the words LaVay chooses to use. You said previously that he uses firey language deliberately. So if literal strength is not what he meant, why does he use it when the dictionary has plenty of adjectives to choose from?
I could classify virtually anything as strong or weak according to whatever point I wanted to make.
George Bush is strong because he rules the most powerful nation in the world and does not bow down to weaker nations or institutions.
George Bush is weak because he is losing his popularity and does not listen to other nations or institutions...

Okay, but why is that classified as "strength"?

[Stormbeard]

And yet strength and weakness are the words LaVay chooses to use. You said previously that he uses firey language deliberately. So if literal strength is not what he meant, why does he use it when the dictionary has plenty of adjectives to choose from?

Because strength and weakness are relevent to the point he is trying to make. LeVay himself later explains that, like the bible, this is not meant to be taken at literal face value.

There is a very simple point to make, and it's made boldly and without fruity language.

[Rudas Starblaze]

But..

Satan originated in Jewish lore (Book of Job for example).
He is not and was not what Christianity makes of him. He was a servant of God, an Angel like any other Angel. He had a specific job to do: Test people's faith in God, and report back to God about it.

Therefore, Satanism as it is today (From what I know of it), has nothing to do with the original Satan.

i agree with you exactly!:cheers:
which is why i see and have a better understanding of Satan as more of the old testament Satan rather than the modern concepts of Satan brought forth from christianity (new testament), dantes inferno, the satanic bible, etc. like myself, he is an angel in black!:)

[Stormbeard]

He also invented rock music, pre-marital sex, heavy metal, and anything else that has ever been fun ever.

[Rudas Starblaze]

He also invented rock music, pre-marital sex, heavy metal, and anything else that has ever been fun ever.

rotflmfao!!!:lol:

[Morr]

So Satanism's role is to challenge people's (christians, jews, what not) belief in God?

[Rudas Starblaze]

So Satanism's role is to challenge people's (christians, jews, what not) belief in God?

nah, a true satanist believes in God. like day and night, black and white, ya cant have one without the other. its more along the lines of getting people to accept we're all gonna fall short of the glory so why not live it up!:lol:

[Morr]

But the Jewish Satan never fell off of Glory.

The Christian Satan did.

The Jewish Satan got a bad rep, but he was just doing his job as assigned to him by God himself.

Either way, while I agree living it up, to a point, is harmless (with the right amount of responsibility taken, of course), I dont know if (from what I already know of Satanism or of Satanists to be exact) I could fully agree with the path.

Though in high school a lot of people thought I was a Satanist because I wore black and listened to Marilyn Manson ROFL, I loved it when I was asked if I like to sacrifice cats and babies and worship the devil.

I would say ""Yes!"". LOL

It was fun.

Anyways, my impression with Satanism has not been a positive one from what I read, or seen coming from some Satanists. It seems more like a show than anything else, and it gives off this vibe that its here to taunt and piss off Christians, nothing more. At least that's what the mainstream ""popular"" Satanism seems to be.

I probably dont know a lot more that is out there about the path, and while I am humbled by my Gods who I worship and am loyal to, there are probably parts of my personality that are Satanist-like.

I don't know if I am making sense, its too early in the morning, and I have to leave soon, its raining and I am cranky.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Morr, you made perfect sense, to me anyway. but then again i view Satan the same way you do!:cheers:

as for sacrificing animals and babies.... full grown adults are way better!:lol:

[Stormbeard]

So Satanism's role is to challenge people's (christians, jews, what not) belief in God?

Not at all.

We have no concern in the beliefs of other people. We have no desire to go out and convert the non-believers.

Too often do preachers cross the line of what is acceptable.

[Stormbeard]

Anyways, my impression with Satanism has not been a positive one from what I read, or seen coming from some Satanists. It seems more like a show than anything else, and it gives off this vibe that its here to taunt and piss off Christians, nothing more. At least that's what the mainstream ""popular"" Satanism seems to be.

The 'show' element of it has always been a bums-in-seats type affair. Same as the Christian Theocracy would employ when they're selling hellfire and brimstone to keep people in church.

You must remember, that although LeVay is a Satanist. He is also an author. That is his living. He is not government funded. The Church of Satan is only privately funded. Selling copies of the bible and the rituals is what brought in money for the man.

The Church of Satan is not about the oppression of other religions, although it stands against many of Christianity's dogmatic views. The expression of freedom and liberty that Satanism embodies, works very well at exposing hypocrisy in other religions and their followers, though I would say that is not it's intention.

[ShadowStalker]

All sarcasm aside, what is your and Rudas' interpretations of this first verse? Down to the meat of it?

[Rudas Starblaze]

All sarcasm aside, what is your and Rudas' interpretations of this first verse? Down to the meat of it?

i posted that already!:lol:

my thoughts on the meaning of this verse.

stand strong and bold. achieve whatever you can in life.


along with another more defining meaning later.

[ShadowStalker]

i posted that already!:lol:



along with another more defining meaning later.

I'm asking for the more defining meaning. Here. Without all the other stuff thrown in... so that it's easy to see, easy to understand where both of you are coming from. One line just doesn't do it for me. :lol:

[Rudas Starblaze]

I'm asking for the more defining meaning. Here. Without all the other stuff thrown in... so that it's easy to see, easy to understand where both of you are coming from. One line just doesn't do it for me. :lol:

:lol: i take it you havent you even read anything thats been posted!?:lol:

like Stormbeard and Sesen said. being strong doesnt only mean physically. it also means being intelectual, having a motive, and being determined. the butterfly and the mammoth, sure the mammoth was physically strong, but the mammoth wasnt designed to be able to put itself in a state of suspended animation for long periods of time like the butterfly in its cocoon before its transformation. but hey, thats animal adaptation, not human behavior.

strength is determined by your mind, motivation, and determination. ive seen little 105lbs guys with no fighting experience beat the living hell out of 200lbs well trained military men. ive seen farm boys who've never fought another person a day in their life beat the living hell out of 5th degree martial artists.

being weak isnt just physical either. if you turn the other cheek to everything and never stand up for yourself or what you believe, thats weakness. even if its in a fight, if ya lose, as long as you tried, you will always gain some respect from someone. ive seen bullies pick fights with "weaklings" and when the weakling stood up and tried to fight back and lost, he still earned respect from the bully and never had a problem after that.

its all a matter of knowing when to back down, and when to stand up for what you believe. that is strength.

[Stormbeard]

My reading of it, is never say die, never give up. Once you resolve that you're going to lose, then you've already lost. Walk tall, be bold. In years to come you will be judged by your strengths and not your weaknesses.

[ShadowStalker]

:lol: i take it you havent you even read anything thats been posted!?:lol:

Yes, but half the time you're being a smart aleck, so I wanted to make sure. :)

Thank you Stormbeard.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Yes, but half the time you're being a smart aleck, so I wanted to make sure. :)


_pounce_ welcome to MW! (btw, those that know me here in RL know that as off the wall as i sound... im usually serious.:) )

[Stormbeard]

Thank you Stormbeard.

No, thank you ShadowStalker.

[Shatril]

_pounce_ welcome to MW! (btw, those that know me here in RL know that as off the wall as i sound... im usually serious.:) )

I see you're still trying to spread that bad boy attitude RS. Ya know I love ya.
Shatril

[Xentor]

My reading of it, is never say die, never give up. Once you resolve that you're going to lose, then you've already lost. Walk tall, be bold. In years to come you will be judged by your strengths and not your weaknesses.
Really? Could you point out any place in any society where this happens? One point where this does not happen: US-American politics, and to a lesser degree also Western European politics, campaigning for office particularly. Instead of focusing on candidates' strengths, focus is put on their weaknesses. There's always a weakness, and if it can't be found, it will be created.

[ShadowStalker]

Really? Could you point out any place in any society where this happens? One point where this does not happen: US-American politics, and to a lesser degree also Western European politics, campaigning for office particularly. Instead of focusing on candidates' strengths, focus is put on their weaknesses. There's always a weakness, and if it can't be found, it will be created.

Ah, but he said in years to come. Which implies that he believes that will change.

Just sayin. :)

[Stormbeard]

Really? Could you point out any place in any society where this happens? One point where this does not happen: US-American politics, and to a lesser degree also Western European politics, campaigning for office particularly. Instead of focusing on candidates' strengths, focus is put on their weaknesses. There's always a weakness, and if it can't be found, it will be created.

If US-American politics are to be used as a yardstick for society, we're in deep trouble indeed.

[Xentor]

Ah, but he said in years to come. Which implies that he believes that will change.

Just sayin. :)

OK then... but I won't be holding my breath. ;)

[ShadowStalker]

OK then... but I won't be holding my breath. ;)

:lol:

Me either.

[Shanti]

I didnt read all the post. I have a fish waiting to be released back into the river.
But I wanted to drop my interpretation of weak and strong in this topic.
I see it as strong of self. Having confidence and knowing oneself. Being who ever you are true to you. Someone who leads themselves.

Weakness to me would be someone who doesn't seek self confidence, self dependency and wants to rely on others to define their identity. Someone who depends on others to tell them how to live their own life. AKA, a sheeple.