Would you answer these questions? Could you?

[Windsmith]

The owner of the Universal Pantheist Society list I'm on forwarded an email from a student at California Baptist University. She's taking Comparative Religions this semester and needs to interview members of another religion. Pantheism has caught her interest over the course of the semester, so she asked if she could interview some UPS members.

Several of the list members have answered admirably, but every time I tried, my fingers just wouldn't type. I believe that this woman is sincere; she really wants to learn about other people's religions. But I think there's something in the very construction of the questions that's going to make it difficult for her to get the answers she needs.

They are:Your belief and understanding of life after death?
Your belief in God?
Your belief in the relationship between good vs. evil? (Example: Christianity- sin)
Your understanding of the cycle of nature?
Were we created?
Is there an end?
Describe what it means to be a Pantheist, such as your lifestyle, rituals, understandings, and relationship with the world around you?
Is the soul attached to the body? (Other religions find there is no soul, some see the two as one, while others belief in no attachment or relationship)
Do you believe similarly to Christianity that the body is a Temple? At first they seemed like great questions, but the more I look at them, the more I think that she's going to get more information about what Pantheists think about Christian dogma than what they think about Pantheism.

I realize that the only frame of reference any of us have in this life is our own experience, but there's a limit. Trying to find out what Pantheists believe by asking them about their relationship with Christian concepts is a lot like a baseball fan asking a hockey fan to explain hockey to her - but telling the hockey fan to use only baseball terms, and by asking questions like, "What is hockey's stance on the designated hitter rule?" and "What do hockey fans do during the 7th-inning stretch?"

What do y'all think? Am I over-analyzing/overreacting? Would you answer those questions if they were posed to you, or would you gently sit this woman down and say, "Here. Let me tell you what my religion is reallyabout..."?

[peggyelizabeth]

I realize that the only frame of reference any of us have in this life is our own experience, but there's a limit. Trying to find out what Pantheists believe by asking them about their relationship with Christian concepts is a lot like a baseball fan asking a hockey fan to explain hockey to her - but telling the hockey fan to use only baseball terms, and by asking questions like, "What is hockey's stance on the designated hitter rule?" and "What do hockey fans do during the 7th-inning stretch?"


YEP. I totally agree. I've taken comparative religion classes (heck that's half of a degree in Humanities!) but I never recall being encouraged to force terms from one religion/spiritual belief upon another-that's just counter productive. Sure, using some terms that are universal are helpful, but the term God isn't one that I'd use.

I think the question "were we created" is also counter productive. Um, yeah, I'm here, so I must have been created. Created by a higher power, well, now that's a different question all together.

[cheddarsox]

I think you are exactly right. The questions themselves will limit the usefulness of the answers. Why not invite her to visit some online pan groups and see how pans discuss and experience the faith themselves, with no outside coercion?

Even though she may see our faith only in comparison to hers, or to one that she is more familiar with, I don't usually think of pantheism that way. I just live it as it is, for it's own sake, not in defiance, or contrast to anything else. That always seems to surprise people. They think my faith is making a statement about them, when really...it's just my faith.

Feel free to invite her to check in here, or to my yahoo group or myspace page.

I wonder what a "Pantheist wants to know about your faith" set of questions would look like...it might be fun to come up with a list just for giggles...

cheddar

[Windsmith]

I think the question "were we created" is also counter productive. Um, yeah, I'm here, so I must have been created. Created by a higher power, well, now that's a different question all together.I was also fond of "Is there an end?" To what? The world? The universe as we know it? These questions?

Feel free to invite her to check in here, or to my yahoo group or myspace page.Say, that's a great idea, cheddar. I just might do that.

I wonder what a "Pantheist wants to know about your faith" set of questions would look like...it might be fun to come up with a list just for giggles...

cheddar1. What is your relationship to the numinous? :idea: Or...wait - do we want valid questions? ;)

[Eleisawolf]

I have answered these questions.

The fact that they are framed with a Christian sensibility will indeed limit the answers this person gets. But for Christians to understand Pantheism, sometimes we have to be the ones to figure out how to answer them in a way that will invite a different worldview into the picture, instead of trying to get the questioner to frame them in the way it would be easiest for us to answer.

Christians in certain denominations are raised in their religion believing that the way they are taught is the only way things can be. They are raised to believe that anything they learn that's different from their religious learnings is wrong. Believe me, as a young unhappy Catholic it took me more than a few exercises in logic to understand that there was simply no being outside of myself, evil or otherwise, pulling me toward Paganism.

So, while it's noble to hope that she could frame the questions better, it might be more fruitful to imagine what answers might help her understand why the questions are framed badly. The other option would be a more pseudo-Buddhist approach.

This is how I usually answer these types of things (with the pseudo-Buddhist approach, for fun, in parens):

Your belief and understanding of life after death?
I believe things will live after I die, and I believe that the molecules and energy in my body must exist after I die, even if I don't. More than that, I can't know now, so why worry about it?
(What brings any being to think about whether there's life after death or not?)

Your belief in God?
I believe in something I call God, but that's just a word for my relationship with it. It's not what you call God. I don't believe that an entity like what you call God exists separate from the human psychology.
(Why do you assume all beings must believe in God or not believe in God? Is there no other alternative?)

Your belief in the relationship between good vs. evil? (Example: Christianity- sin)
Good and evil are a matter of perspective. The knife is evil to the cow, but good to the rancher. The axe is evil to the tree, but good to the homebuilder. Good and evil do not exist outside of personal, cultural, or species perspective.
(What makes you think good and evil exist? What are the other choices?)

Your understanding of the cycle of nature?
It is. I exist within it, and I try to learn about how each thing behaves. Ultimately, it is the handwriting of our existence, and the only scripture that cannot be corrupted by human hands.
(What is there to understand about nature's cycles? What else might there be?)

Were we created?
I was created by the sexual union of my parents. The first being on earth was created through a series of chemical and physical processes that brought about life.
(Are there no other options than being created or not being created?)

Is there an end?
There are lots of ends. There are lots of beginnings. Right now is what matters.
(An end to what, really? Wouldn't that just be the beginning of something else?)

Describe what it means to be a Pantheist, such as your lifestyle, rituals, understandings, and relationship with the world around you?
That last phrase is what it means to be a Pantheist. Relationship with the world around me. In my opinion, the key word for any religion is relationship.
(What are all the things you've brought up but the trappings of spirituality? What goes deeper than actions? What else is there?)

Is the soul attached to the body? (Other religions find there is no soul, some see the two as one, while others belief in no attachment or relationship)
There is no proof that a "soul" exists. I'm not about to determine whether it does or not. I'll just continue my relationship with the universe and if it turns out there is one, I'll investigate. If there isn't, it really doesn't matter.
(What purpose would it serve if it were any of the above? What is the purpose of belief in a soul? What other options are there?)

Do you believe similarly to Christianity that the body is a Temple?
I do not believe "similarly to Christianity," but I do believe that my body, which houses my mind and emotions, is the only means through which I can percieve the universe around me. Because of that, it is the only thing that allows the relationship referred to above. So, if the "temple" is the means of relating with God, and for me my relationship is with the universe, then I suppose my body is a temple. What I do know is that I want to be around for as much of a full life as I can, so I take care of my body. Life is precious to me as it truly exists, but not as something to be artificially or superficially extended. To do so is to remove its value.
(Why must it be similarly to Christianity? Is the body not a temple for others who have never been exposed to Western Judeo-Christian belief? How did the religions that existed before Christianity, or those that only learned about it relatively recently, perceive the body to serve them before Christian influence? What is a temple?)

Just thoughts.

Peace

[Eleisawolf]

My contribution to a Pantheist "tell me about your faith" set of questions:

"What is?"

Peace

[cheddarsox]

I am so glad there are people like you out there, with more patience and inner peace than I can muster these days!

My current approach is just to "invite them to church"...because I am tired of words upon words that get challenged by more words. Sometimes I feel I am just building a fort of words between me and them, and it grows higher, thicker and more impenatrable the longer I go on.

Your words are gentle, like water seeping where it needs to go. I have no such words these days...just a tsunami...looking for a place to happen. sigh...

cheddar

[Willow Rosette]

I have no problem answering them at all.

Your belief and understanding of life after death?

I believe when I die my soul will rest and then be reincarnated to learn lessons which will make me a better energy.

Your belief in God?

A friend once used the analagy of spokes on a wheel with each belief being one spoke which in turn leads to the center. My beliefs will lead to the center because for me they are truth and wisdom. Just because someone elses set of truths dont sound true to me doesnt make them less so. So I believe the deities that I worship to be true for me and the ones someone else worships are true to that person. In the end we all get to the center.

Your belief in the relationship between good vs. evil? (Example: Christianity- sin)

I do not believe there is some outside force making me act in a negative manner. If I do something that is less than moral that is because I chose to. Having said that I do believe in evil but I believe that evil lives inside of us and we make the choice weather or not to listen to that evil. And same with good for that matter.

Your understanding of the cycle of nature?

I hate to sound snide on this one but how can the cycles of nature be up for questioning? No matter your religion you see the cycle change.

Were we created?

This one is a harder one to answer. Were we created to be a divine powers play toy? I sure hope not. I believe we evolved to who we are and along the way there was someone holding our hand so to speak.

Is there an end?

This question is awfully vague to answer. Im kind of assuming it means an end to the world as we know it? The christian version of when Christ is reborn? Unfortunately I think there will be an end. But it will be man made.

Describe what it means to be a Pantheist, such as your lifestyle, rituals, understandings, and relationship with the world around you?

To me being a Panthiest means having the freedom to worship the one that speaks to me. Having the freedom to worship in the way that feels correct and truthfull to me. Whoever said it before said it the best I think. It is simply having a relationship with the world around me. But I dont think that will quite make sence to someone who doesnt feel that feeling.

Is the soul attached to the body? (Other religions find there is no soul, some see the two as one, while others belief in no attachment or relationship)

I believe my sould is attached to my body during this incarnate and when my body dies my soul will move on, rest and be reborn as I said above.

Do you believe similarly to Christianity that the body is a Temple?

I think that is not a Christian point of view as suggested in the question. I believe it was not adapted from Christianity. I think people view their body as a temple less as a religious view and more as a self respect view. Yes my body is a temple because I love and cherish it.

[Eleisawolf]

I am so glad there are people like you out there, with more patience and inner peace than I can muster these days!

My current approach is just to "invite them to church"...because I am tired of words upon words that get challenged by more words. Sometimes I feel I am just building a fort of words between me and them, and it grows higher, thicker and more impenatrable the longer I go on.

Your words are gentle, like water seeping where it needs to go. I have no such words these days...just a tsunami...looking for a place to happen. sigh...

cheddar

Namaste, Cheddar. You inspire me, too. Sometimes words aren't enough, and being there, being present to everything you are, is the most effective way to demonstrate What Is to someone else.

Peace

[ravenscape]

They are the wrong questions. I wish I knew what the right questions are.

[cheddarsox]

They are the wrong questions. I wish I knew what the right questions are.

Ah! I know this...in my own life, the truest things I have learned were not in response to any questions. My questioning always limits what I can take in about What Is. My questions always come with presuppositions, etc, and get in the way of truth. My questions are always about ME and never about the thing I am hoping to understand.

so...not having questions, is often a great thing, just being open to What Is, without it having to squeeze in through the particular cut outs in my mind that I have waiting to be filled.

I want my mind blown open, so I stop seeking to fill the empty places and just BE, and let What Is create it's own thing in my being.

Here...is an example...completely true. About six weeks ago, some new relationships in my life took off. Soared like eagles. I was so thrilled. So energized. On the same day...I spent time with two new friends (at seperate times) and we had so much fun together. Within a week...I lost them both. And I have been asking myself "why", and keep preteding that if I knew "why", I would feel better.

But an answer wouldn't change what is. It would be a distraction for my mind for a while, something to argue with, debate, refute, get mad over...but it would not change what is.

Rather...I need to feel what I feel now, as uninhibitedly as I did the joy of new friendship. I need to feel this loneliness and loss with the same abandon. That is the only way to understand and know What is. The question will give me an answer...but THE answer is...experiencing What Is.

I am throwing a wake this weekend, to mourn, to allow myself to acknowledge and feel this loss. I've invited people. They are coming. We will sit shiva together. I am tired of trying to pretend I'm cool with it. Instead, I will acknowledge what is.

[ravenscape]

Very true cheddarsox. I usually hold my wakes in private. In the shower works well. Or while walking in the rain without gear. I'm not sure why, but I can cry without reservations when the tears have so much company.

That said, my reply was facetious. There are no right questions. Questions about spiritual beliefs and non-beliefs are usually invitations to set up shop inside boxes.

[cheddarsox]

Very true cheddarsox. I usually hold my wakes in private. In the shower works well. Or while walking in the rain without gear. I'm not sure why, but I can cry without reservations when the tears have so much company.

That said, my reply was facetious. There are no right questions. Questions about spiritual beliefs and non-beliefs are usually invitations to set up shop inside boxes.


I have a terrible dangerous habit of taking people at their word, which is what got me into this mess in the first place (with the lost friendships)..They were just having fun with me, but I believed it was real.

Sorry for pontificating over your tongue in cheek response, but the message it true, and there are plenty of people who do think if they could only devise the right question...they would find the answer.

Mourning in private has brought no relief, this public wake is my last ditch effort. My pain is more than I can deal with myself, I am getting desperate. I tell people that and they smile...as if I'm kidding.

I am starting to think I am as imaginary as those supposed friendships.

cheddar...who only has answers to questions that people weren't really asking...it happens all the time

[ravenscape]

I hope that it works out, Cheddar. I'm sorry this very real loss you're experiencing has been minimized and discounted by people you should be able to count on for an empathetic response.