Anti-Wiccan views in Paganism?

[Sage Rainsong]

I am not sure if this thread has been done before so I apologise if it has. I don't know if anyone has noticed this but for some reason, when I talk to many non-Wiccan Pagans there seems to be this.........prejudice, for lack of a better word, against Wiccans. Many other kinds of Pagans seem to see them as silly, shallow, wimps (for the whole harm none thing), and other such things. Many non-Wiccan Pagans I talk to, seem to defensively react and say that they are not Wiccan, almost as if offended. Of course the nessesary disclaimer of, "not that there is anything wrong with that," quickly comes into play. With some people it seems to be getting to the point that saying that you are not Wiccan automatically makes you not a "fluffy." Does anyone else see this? If so where do you think this attitude comes from? I personally think that part of it comes from the horrible commercialization that plagues modern day Wicca. Also there are a couple of things that I want to point out. First of all I am not targeting MW or anyone on here, I am just speaking about many people in the Pagan community as a whole. Also I am not Wiccan, not that there is anything wrong with that (bonus points if you get the Seinfeld reference.)

[Meadhbh]

Well, when you think of fluff bunnies wiccans come to mind. Its that kind of thing that people tend to remember that sort of thing. That and wiccan tends to be the first branch of paganism that people really hear about. So you have a bunch of people who are still finding their way and may not be able to clearly define their paths as some one who has been a pagan for years and set down and give you a highly detailed version on what they believe and why they believe it.

[Sage Rainsong]

wiccan tends to be the first branch of paganism that people really hear about.

That's a good point maybe some are frustrated because their respective paths are less known.

[Rainbow]

Many other kinds of Pagans seem to see them as silly, shallow, wimps (for the whole harm none thing), and other such things. Many non-Wiccan Pagans I talk to, seem to defensively react and say that they are not Wiccan, almost as if offended.

Personally, when I insist I am not a Wiccan it tends to be because when I haven't specified people have attempted to put a certain "yardstick" on me if they think I am a Wiccan, such as taking issue with what magick I use or Who I worship. I generally don't have that problem anymore, though, so I don't need to insist otherwise.


With some people it seems to be getting to the point that saying that you are not Wiccan automatically makes you not a "fluffy."

Oh, there are certainly a great deal of "fluffy" (hate that word) non-Wiccans out there. Even a Recon or a Traditionalist can have those characteristics.


Does anyone else see this? If so where do you think this attitude comes from?

Personally, when I think of "Wicca" I think of a lot of the negative things Wiccans can do. It's not a problem with the religion itself, but the attitude of some of the loudest members and the fact that that attitude seems to be highly contagious amongst newer converts to the religion. For example, I strongly dislike having people tell me that I am doing things "wrong" if I am not doing them Wicca-like. When a Wiccan tells a non-Wiccan Pagan that he or she is inethical because he or she is apathetic to the Wiccan Rede, or doing something wrong because he or she does not cast a circle before a ritual, or even simply makes the automatic assumption that because one is a Pagan one should doing things very similar to Wicca. The worst, I feel, is defining Paganism based primarily or even solely on Wiccan terms, and quite frankly that sort of attitude really is a rampant attitude, I have yet to go to a Pagan event which didn't take this stance, often to an extreme level (For example, the last event I went to made the statement not to worry about Witches, for no Witch will ever cast a harmful spell... not that I think you should be worrying about Witchcraft, but the second half is a blatantly false statement and for a non-Wiccan Pagan who attends it does not make Wicca look very good).

As far as being a "kiddie" religion or a "childish" religion, I strongly disagree with that sentiment, even when it comes to the really modern Eclectic Wicca and other Wiccan styles which don't really require a ton of bookwork... different religions for different people, whatever, doesn't bother me.

[Philosophia]

Does anyone else see this?

Unfortunately, yes I do see it and I feel it puts Wiccans down. I'm not a Wiccan and I admit that sometimes I do do this (though I usually give myself a mental slap for doing so).


If so where do you think this attitude comes from?

I think it comes from a variety of different attitudes. The ones that are the most prominent are a lack of education and knowledge about Wicca, the distinctive "fluffy bunny" attitude, and the prominence of Wiccan commercialization and the so-called phases.


Also I am not Wiccan, not that there is anything wrong with that (bonus points if you get the Seinfeld reference.)

The gay reference? When the reporter mistook Jerry and George's relationship as homosexual?

[MagickalHack]

I usually only vocalize the fact that I am not Wiccan when asked about my beliefs. I have met my fair share of Fluffy Wiccans, and non-Wiccans. I'm of the opinion that people will practice/believe what they want, and until they try to force that upon me, it's their choice.

As for the "and harm none" thing; I prefer the "eye for an eye" approach.

[Athena-Nadine]

I think some people just need a group to pick on. Protestants pick on Catholics, Catholics pick on Protestants, etc. First it was the Satanists, then it was the Recons, now it's the Wiccans.

[Fairy_Princess]

From my own personal experiences, Wiccans firstly tend to be the "Christians" of the Pagan world. WHat I mean by that is, I've met more than a couple of Wiccans who feel that their "way" of wicca is "THE" spiritual truth of the universe. They can be almost evangelical in their attitudes toward othe Pagans. When living in Pittsburgh a small group of these people even dubbed "The Way of the One True Goddess" by some people I know. That is the first bad taste in my mouth when I hear Wicca.

Secondly I personally am a very pratical pagan with Germanic Heathen leaning. So more often than not, YES, Wiccans do come across as Fluffy-Headed busy bodies with too much hot air and too little sense. This point though is just a personality clash as I often annoy the living shite out most people who are very tender or sensitive.


Wiccans are often more gentle, optimistic souls with a much brighter outlook of the world than I personally hold. This naturally leads to them being outraged at my antics and my being annoyed at their "dunder headed outlooks".

In the end, I don't have apoor view of Wicca, I just don't have a use for it and find more often than not that I do not get along with most Wiccans on a most fundamental level.

The same can be said of myself and Hippies, Yuppies, Republicans, Green Peace, Peta, Evangelical Christians, Potheads and Tobacco Smokers too though. So, it may just be me.


On a related note, uppity 14 year old girls who suddenly "discover" "Wicca" in order to tick off Mumsy/Dadsy or "fit in" just annoy me.


I think I am crotchety in my old age.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Well, I think it's because Wicca's basically the biggest (or loudest) kid on the NeoPagan playground. From the outside, most people just see Wicca, and this can be annoying, I think, to those other kids, because they're not recognized or they're misunderstood... and, like a big kid playing with smaller kids, Wiccans sometimes step on the toes of the other kids. We don't know our own influence/strength... it's not that Wiccans are intentionally bullying the others, but when we *assume* that other Pagans have the same beliefs/values that we do, or when we organize a generic ritual for a group of NeoPagans around the Wiccan-style structure... I imagine it causes some hard feelings.

Sure there are a few of us that have it in our heads that Wicca is the only way... and that's blatantly wrong, IMO... I'd say that that goes against the principles of Wicca itself, but when you've got people coming from "OneTrueWay" religions, some of that stuff hasn't worn off yet... and for some, it never will. But that happens in all religions, not just Wicca... It's probably just more obvious in Wicca because we are so many, and because the hypocrisy of it is so glaring. ^_^

That said, I think it goes overboard quite often, as well. People have become too sensitive... the whiff of Wicca makes them recoil. And honestly, not everyone has to like everyone else... but the vehemence is disturbing. Especially when Wicca is mischaracterized.... esp. as all-fluffy, all-white light, all, all Christianity-lite with a Goddess instead of a God. That part is annoying to me, at least. It's easy to tear down a straw-man of all the characteristics that you don't like... but honestly, if you don't like Wicca, that's ok... It's just not entirely honest to scapegoat it at the same time...

And this is probably the most I've ever written about it. And the most I ever will. What people say and do is their own business. I worry about me and mine... it's not that I don't notice, or don't have an opinion on it, but if I can't do anything about it, why fret? Why be indignant? In other words, if you don't like me, why should I care?

[Cindlady2]

I just feel many people here about the Wiccans first (it's the first label they can put on witches) so that's what they tend to use. I have a tendency to get a little defencive (I'm not wiccan) when people want to call me wiccan because to me it's like calling a baptist catholic.

[Mouse]

I'm not sure... I (nearly) always say that I'm not Wiccan if people ask... And to some extent it does offend me that people assume I am Wiccan. I'll have to think on it more to find out exactly why.

I think mostly it's because I don't like people assumeing I'm something that I'm not, and that the majority of Wiccans I've met in real life are complete idiots - I'd be embarrased to be lumped in the same group as them. This might seem nasty, but IRL I speak up for my religion frequently, and am the person many people in my small town turn to for information and advice on many branches of spirituality, I want them to know that my beliefs are not Wiccan, not only because that would embarras me, but because it would be spreading mis-information about Wicca if these people took my actions to be those of a Wiccan.

I still need to think on this a bit more tho..

[Shadow Angel]

yup, I am not Wiccan, and always state that.

the thing is, people assume things, so I will put them right.

and I agree, someone calling me a Wiccan imay be a little offensive to me, and is I agree, like calling me a Catholic...yes it does get my back up, sometimes, even if I dont always show it, but Ive learned to be a tolerant, respectful person, and at the end of the day it doesnt matter to me what creed colour etc you are, we are all brothers and sisters, right?

I have many Wiccan friends, many Christian friends, friends of all races, colours and beliefs, up-bringing.
where once it would have mattered to me, now I am less bothered, because I have taken the time to try to understand, and not to judge.

as for fluffers, well..ive known a few fluffs from all types of belief, not just the Wiccans.
All these damned labels is what pisses me off.

[Aina]

The whole thing about the Wiccan symbol being put on soilders graves was on the news last night...yeah, Wiccan's are who you think of when someones says "pagan" or "neo-pagan". I guess everyone kind of forgot about witchs, druids, heathens, and even satanists (um, i dunno if you guys are pagans or not..but..*shrug* im putting ya in the group :D ). Wiccanism is a growing relgion. Hell, 19% of the congration of the UU church here in Columbus is made up of Wiccans.
It's just because everyone kind of knows something about Wiccanism..not maybe people are familiar with the others i've listed above.

My own two cents...i'm gonna go back to doing my pilates and yoga now. :p

-Aina-

[ap Dafydd]

No I've never come across prejudice against Wiccans, a dignified and mature tradition in my experience.

Plenty of prejudice against numpties, twinklies and the like, but with good reason.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[RainInanna]

Yes, I started a thread in the Wicca sub-forum just like this one. It irritates me. Everyone realizes it's wrong to broadbrush people based on one's experiences with a few others of a particular gender and race. Everyone hates being stereotyped and will speak out when it is done to them. Yet many are willing to do it - now to Wiccans - clinging to assumptions and incorrect perceptions no matter the evidence to the contrary.

I wish people would stop spending so much time trying to point out what's wrong with others.

[Crysiira]

I guess for me when I get called a Wiccan, I'm not so much offended as I want to set people straight that Wicca is not the only Pagan branch out there. As others have said, it's the most visible and the one most people know the most about, so when I call myself a Pagan, they go, wow, so you're a Wiccan, huh? As if the two words were interchangable. Just like Wiccan and Witch are interchangable. (They're not. IMO.)

I'm in a class right now called Anthropology of Myth, Magic, and Religion - and even my teacher presents Wiccan thoughts such as the Wiccan Rede as something all Pagans follow. The book he gave us to read is rife with misinformation about Wicca and the rest of Paganism. (It probably doesn't help that the survey done in the book was from a good 15 years ago - new branches have arisen since then, I'm sure.) I'm very disappointed in myself too, because I can't quite be brave enough to speak up and correct him. See, in this class, we're supposed to focus on the concepts, like pragmatic and trancendental, orthodoxy and orthopraxy, syncretism and creolization, postmodernism, so on and so forth. It's the concepts, not the details of the religion, that we're supposed to focus on. So I keep my mouth shut. However, I feel like everyone in the class but me is walking away with a misguided view of Pagans and Wiccans because if that.

But maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe it only matters to me because I'm part of what he's talking about. For all I know, we were being given misinformation on the Huli culture of Papua New Guinea as well, but I would never know because I'm not a part of it. Whatever, I guess...

[Dawa Lhamo]

It's the concepts, not the details of the religion, that we're supposed to focus on. So I keep my mouth shut. However, I feel like everyone in the class but me is walking away with a misguided view of Peoples and Wiccans because if that.It was the same way with me and a class I just took called "Cults, Sects, and New Religious Movements"... we even had a Master's student in there who had done her thesis on Wicca (the teacher called her our "Wicca expert" which just made me roll my eyes... and as a result, I said nothing of my religious affiliation, because I didn't want to seem contradictory)... but it was the same sort of thing. We read a chapter from Triumph of the Moon (the final one), and then our "Wicca expert" basically brought out a bunch of the old, common generalisms... and I know that the point was just to get a general idea, so I didn't say anything either. ^_^

[Lunar Raven]

I think a lot of people have a "underground is better" attitude..and feel threatened because Wicca is more "mainstream". Maybe it's because Wicca is often times corresponded with false stereotypes because of it's popularity, I'm not sure. Either way, it's pointless to hate someones beliefs as long as they're not hurting anyone. It's also pointless to hate a set of beliefs because of a few bad personal experiences involving Wiccans.

[ajc2184]

Well, when you think of fluff bunnies wiccans come to mind. Its that kind of thing that people tend to remember that sort of thing. That and wiccan tends to be the first branch of paganism that people really hear about. So you have a bunch of people who are still finding their way and may not be able to clearly define their paths as some one who has been a pagan for years and set down and give you a highly detailed version on what they believe and why they believe it.

I honestly believe this is where a lot of the problems come in, in fact I was aPagan in the old sense of the word before I knew anything of other Paths, I have always been closely involved with nature and the Earth Mother, so that is maybe why I have more constrained views and cannot bring the two concepts together as some people can. I know nature is not all goodness in light and as someone pointed out I think much of what people believe of Wiccans is because of the silly TV programmes, it is something I find difficulty in coming to terms with personally. I must add here that I follow the ideals of Witchcraft now, not Wicca,I see the two as entirely different belief systems.

[ajc2184]

From my own personal experiences, Wiccans firstly tend to be the "Christians" of the Pagan world. WHat I mean by that is, I've met more than a couple of Wiccans who feel that their "way" of wicca is "THE" spiritual truth of the universe. They can be almost evangelical in their attitudes toward othe Pagans. When living in Pittsburgh a small group of these people even dubbed "The Way of the One True Goddess" by some people I know. That is the first bad taste in my mouth when I hear Wicca.

Secondly I personally am a very pratical pagan with Germanic Heathen leaning. So more often than not, YES, Wiccans do come across as Fluffy-Headed busy bodies with too much hot air and too little sense. This point though is just a personality clash as I often annoy the living shite out most people who are very tender or sensitive.


Wiccans are often more gentle, optimistic souls with a much brighter outlook of the world than I personally hold. This naturally leads to them being outraged at my antics and my being annoyed at their "dunder headed outlooks".

In the end, I don't have apoor view of Wicca, I just don't have a use for it and find more often than not that I do not get along with most Wiccans on a most fundamental level.

The same can be said of myself and Hippies, Yuppies, Republicans, Green Peace, Peta, Evangelical Christians, Potheads and Tobacco Smokers too though. So, it may just be me.


On a related note, uppity 14 year old girls who suddenly "discover" "Wicca" in order to tick off Mumsy/Dadsy or "fit in" just annoy me.


I think I am crotchety in my old age.

No I think you make a great deal of sense, if I recieve respect I will give respect. I am sure your last statement about 14yr olds is where much of the problem starts. It sort of invites everone to tar all with the same brush.

[cheddarsox]

I know very little about Wicca, never studied it. I admit to having a knee jerk "eye roll" when someone announces that they are Wiccan. This thread has got me thinking about where my reaction stems from.

I suspect it is because most of the flaky types I know seem to announce, loudly and repeatedly that they are Wiccan, and to corner people and go on and on about their beliefs and practices, etc. Also, when I was in an ecumenical pagan group, the rituals, discussions, holidays, etc, always defaulted to Wiccanesque...even though the majority of people in the group were not Wiccan. I guess we were catering to outsiders expectations..?


The behavior of a few, have, for me, inspired a prejudice against the many. I am willing to overcome it, and have on individual basis. I don't dis Wicca, because I know nothing but the most basic info about it, but I tend to steer clear of people who let me know they are Wiccan...before they even bother to tell me their name.

Honestly, I have never had a Heathen, or Kemetic tell me.."Hi, I'm a Heathen and this is what I believe, and this is what I do on these days of the year, and this is why, and this is what I wear to prove I'm a real heathen, and oh, by the way, my name is Ted."

I'm not proud of this, but it's the truth.

cheddar

[Dawa Lhamo]

but I tend to steer clear of people who let me know they are Wiccan...before they even bother to tell me their name.lol. I would too!

I mean, I find religious discussion fascinating, but there are levels... If I'm just meeting you, why do I care what your religion is? After I get to know you, I might ask, but that's not something that you just come out and confront people with... It's just begging for conflict...

"I'm x. You got a problem with that???? Huh, do you? Do you? ...[which inevitably leads to]... See how persecuted I am?"

Meh. I try to avoid such people, no matter what they claim to be. ^_^

[wolfjan1]

Personally, when I insist I am not a Wiccan it tends to be because when I haven't specified people have attempted to put a certain "yardstick" on me if they think I am a Wiccan, such as taking issue with what magick I use or Who I worship. I generally don't have that problem anymore, though, so I don't need to insist otherwise.



Oh, there are certainly a great deal of "fluffy" (hate that word) non-Wiccans out there. Even a Recon or a Traditionalist can have those characteristics.



Personally, when I think of "Wicca" I think of a lot of the negative things Wiccans can do. It's not a problem with the religion itself, but the attitude of some of the loudest members and the fact that that attitude seems to be highly contagious amongst newer converts to the religion. For example, I strongly dislike having people tell me that I am doing things "wrong" if I am not doing them Wicca-like. When a Wiccan tells a non-Wiccan Pagan that he or she is inethical because he or she is apathetic to the Wiccan Rede, or doing something wrong because he or she does not cast a circle before a ritual, or even simply makes the automatic assumption that because one is a Pagan one should doing things very similar to Wicca. The worst, I feel, is defining Paganism based primarily or even solely on Wiccan terms, and quite frankly that sort of attitude really is a rampant attitude, I have yet to go to a Pagan event which didn't take this stance, often to an extreme level (For example, the last event I went to made the statement not to worry about Witches, for no Witch will ever cast a harmful spell... not that I think you should be worrying about Witchcraft, but the second half is a blatantly false statement and for a non-Wiccan Pagan who attends it does not make Wicca look very good).

As far as being a "kiddie" religion or a "childish" religion, I strongly disagree with that sentiment, even when it comes to the really modern Eclectic Wicca and other Wiccan styles which don't really require a ton of bookwork... different religions for different people, whatever, doesn't bother me.
Ok, isn't that what so many of us have issues with?(sorry about the preposition). Persons of organized religion telling us that we are wrong? That appears to be the case here. That is how I take it. We have enough intolerance in the world around us, we don't need to be judgemental of each other's paths in THIS community. Otherwise, why are we here?

[aluokaloo]

Personally, when I insist I am not a Wiccan it tends to be because when I haven't specified people have attempted to put a certain "yardstick" on me if they think I am a Wiccan, such as taking issue with what magick I use or Who I worship. I generally don't have that problem anymore, though, so I don't need to insist otherwise.



Oh, there are certainly a great deal of "fluffy" (hate that word) non-Wiccans out there. Even a Recon or a Traditionalist can have those characteristics.



Personally, when I think of "Wicca" I think of a lot of the negative things Wiccans can do. It's not a problem with the religion itself, but the attitude of some of the loudest members and the fact that that attitude seems to be highly contagious amongst newer converts to the religion. For example, I strongly dislike having people tell me that I am doing things "wrong" if I am not doing them Wicca-like. When a Wiccan tells a non-Wiccan Pagan that he or she is inethical because he or she is apathetic to the Wiccan Rede, or doing something wrong because he or she does not cast a circle before a ritual, or even simply makes the automatic assumption that because one is a Pagan one should doing things very similar to Wicca. The worst, I feel, is defining Paganism based primarily or even solely on Wiccan terms, and quite frankly that sort of attitude really is a rampant attitude, I have yet to go to a Pagan event which didn't take this stance, often to an extreme level (For example, the last event I went to made the statement not to worry about Witches, for no Witch will ever cast a harmful spell... not that I think you should be worrying about Witchcraft, but the second half is a blatantly false statement and for a non-Wiccan Pagan who attends it does not make Wicca look very good).

As far as being a "kiddie" religion or a "childish" religion, I strongly disagree with that sentiment, even when it comes to the really modern Eclectic Wicca and other Wiccan styles which don't really require a ton of bookwork... different religions for different people, whatever, doesn't bother me.




well spoekn Rainbow, as for me, I'm not prejudiced against wiccans I was gonna say more but....I just had some sort of brainfart moment, so that's good enough I guess.

[Russ]

What they said up there about the orgnaization thing.

:rant:

Also it ticks me off when people try to say the Runes are a Wiccan Women's mystery. No not adapt them for Wiccan practice. But say they have ALWAYS been such...

Also the Wiccans that claim symbols like the yin/yang where stolen from them.

PLUS Wiccans that try to turn deities like The Dagda (Earth God) into a solar diety and claim it's what he really is just so it can be shoe horned into there practice.

Finally you got companies like Llyenyl telling authors no matter WHAT there subject it must be altered and watered down to appeal to neo-Wiccans. ESPECALLY the teenage girls...

THERE ARE MY ISSUES!

Thank you and Good Night Mystic Wicks!

[Nox_Mortus]

What they said up there about the orgnaization thing.

:rant:

Also it ticks me off when people try to say the Runes are a Wiccan Women's mystery. No not adapt them for Wiccan practice. But say they have ALWAYS been such...

Also the Wiccans that claim symbols like the yin/yang where stolen from them.



Uhh I've been studying Wicca for awhile, and I've met a lot of Wiccans, I've never heard any of them make claims like that. You must know some really out there Wiccans, and dont judge a religion based on its total nutcases either, every religion has them, you just have to take them for what they are, nutcases.

[Russ]

Why do you think I kept saying. The Wiccans that "do such and such."

For every good Wiccan I meet. I've meet 10 that fit the above.

[Nox_Mortus]

Why do you think I kept saying. The Wiccans that "do such and such."

For every good Wiccan I meet. I've meet 10 that fit the above.

wow, I've met a few Wiccans that are out there enough to maybe say some crap like that, but they are in a vast minority, of course then again i try to avoid people who don't know what they are talking about.