Traditional Irish Witchcraft

[Morr]

So, I have recently become interested in this topic. I have encountered some less than nice people who claim to practice Traditional Irish Witchcraft, but they were very rude for the sole reason that I come from a more "neo-pagan" side of things, as they would call it. They were real snotty about it...

So I figured I would ask out here if anyone is familiar with resources (preferably online for the time being since I cannot afford to buy new books now) about Traditional Irish Witchcraft, or Witchcraft traditions within Irish pre-Christian culture.

Further more, is there anyone who practices it? Anyone care to shed some light on the topic?


Thanks!

[Shadow Angel]

Doras feasa fiafraigh.:cheers:

[Nitefalle]

Hm...I think that the biggest hurdle in this area is probably the wording. This is just a theory of mine, so I could be totally wrong, but I think that to call it "witchcraft" is what is throwing you off the trail. Because Ireland is *such* a Christian country (now matter how Pagan their roots are), "witchcraft" is generally viewed as something very negative and shied away from. So, even the people that do practice what you and I would consider "witchcraft" don't call it that, they call it something else - so when you come around asking about witchcraft, they are of the mindset of "That is not what I do, that is bad" or something along those lines. Am I making any sense whatsoever?? 8O

And again, to go back far enough that it is pre-Christian, it probably still wasn't called "witchcraft" back then, either, so you would still come to a dead end.

I think that your best bet would be to try and track down some British Traditional Witchcraft (also a prickly, secretive bunch) and maybe compare it to what you know of basic Irish paganism / Recon and maybe come up with your own amalgamation??

If you can't understand a word that I've typed, I wouldn't blame you - please let me know LOL

[Morr]

Yeah, I figured that the term "Witchcraft" would be problematic. Since Witchcraft in modern sense is very different than the ancient one, especially in a place like Ireland where the four directions/elements and the pentecle are not at all part of the religion/spirituality.

I don't know, I guess maybe... Folk traditions? Like, on a Hearthy sort of thing? Irish Hedgewitchery? Or just folklore and traditions, but again more on the Witchy side? Herbology stuff?

LOL I think I am confusing myself.

[_Banbha_]

Oh, there is a big part of me that wants to know who these people are! :hahugh: PM? Jeebus, it's not me, is it? :lol:

Now, I've been putting together a booklist on various traditional uses of herbs and folklore from Ireland concerning natuaral practices and was going to start a resource thread for Recon and more Trad-minded Irish Green Witches in the Green, Hedge and Kitchen Witch Path section. I can go through my favorites list for sites, but I can say that I might only one buried deep devoted directly to Trad. Irish Witchcraft. I've more original raw cultural info and materials. I can do this more at a later time as I'm running late at the moment.

I look forward to reading what others have to add! :D

[Shadow Angel]

~nearly chokes on her coffee~

eta;bowing out of this thread me thinks!

[Morr]

Care to explain, Shadow Angel?

[Nitefalle]

Oooooh, Wilde Dryad can't wait to see those threads!!!! :boing:

[Morr]

Oooooh, Wilde Dryad can't wait to see those threads!!!! :boing:


Me too!

[Shadow Angel]

Care to explain, Shadow Angel?

actually no. LOL

no offense.

Just think it would be wiser, so with respect I shall leave.

[Morr]

Alrighty then...

[Shadow Angel]

half lefty too.:lol:

_wedgie_:cheers:

[Shadow Angel]

Just to clarify a couple of things;
I am not bowing from this thread because of what anyone in particular has said.
I am bowing out because i feel that my being involved is not a wise thing.

Also to add, that what I said has nothing to do with anyone else, and my reasons are my own, which , with respect are personal.
i wasnt being disrespectful nor mocking in my tone. if it comes across as such then i sincerely apologise.



I wish you good luck in finding some info out on this.

:cheers:

[Lolair]

Hi Morr :)

I know what you mean by a different definition of witchcraft meaning folk-magic and folk traditions - lol I find myself entering the same confusion with myself as well as others! Sacred Texts is your best friend when you can't afford books. Here's a link to their Celtic Folklore (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/index.htm) section - it has some great books in it including ones no longer in print. Also check out The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/) - although it does cover many Celtic countries the author Wentz always comes back to Ireland and it has a strong focus on the Tuatha De Dannan... Here's another treasure: Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions (http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/idr/index.htm)

Slainte!
Lolair

[Morr]

Thanks so much! I was just steering my way towards Sacred Texts. And I have a pile of all of my Ireland/Celtic associated books and I am going to try and dig through them to see what I can find (of course, after I do the dishes and sweet because I am WAY behind on my Hearthy chores...!).

[_Banbha_]

Okay, I still have to go through my lists but I wanted to leave this article by Alexei Kondratiev. It was pointed out to me today and I found it interesting:

Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live: an Enquiry into Biblical Mistranslation
(http://www.draknet.com/proteus/Suffer.htm)

That goes into the etimology of the word witch in Irish and the cultural distictions.

Here are some quotes, the "Celtic" stuff mostly near the bottom of the page:

A problem arose with the Celtic languages, which did not make clear distinctions between benign and harmful uses of magic, but tended to see them as varieties of a single, morally neutral concept. For Exodus 22:18 the Welsh Bible came up with hudoles, "female weaver of illusion" -- from hud, a term that originally denoted the charms of fascination but now means "magic" in both positive and negative aspects. Irish, unfortunately, found nothing better than bandraoi "druidess" -- draoi (from an Old Celtic construction meaning "true-seer") having come to mean "magician" in all senses. Scots Gaelic used ban-fhiosaiche, "seeress, wisewoman" (the esheth ba'aloth-'ov in I Samuel was called bean aig a bheil leannan-sith, "a woman who has a fairy lover"!). Manx avoids the problem altogether by borrowing the English word "witch" as buitch.

We can thus see that, apart from the confusion in the Celtic realm, the translators of the Bible into modern tongues took some pains to convey the original meaning of the word m'khashephah. This did not mean, of course, that the English word "witch" (or the equivalent terms in other European languages) retained that specialized meaning. Although scholars knew the difference, the fusion of the concepts behind the words m'khashephah and pharmakos, begun in the Septuagint, continued in popular culture, until the bubbling cauldron of the pharmakos became, in the minds of most people, a normal appendage of the malignant, spell-casting "witch". Since the idea that all magic was illicit had now found its theological justification -- substituting Satan for the Semitic gods of the Underworld -- the herbalist's quasi-magical knowledge could be attributed to Satanic influence, and (usually if she was unpopular for other reasons) she became a legitimate target for witch-hunters.

.......

In many cultures, "good" magicians are called by words that make some reference to knowledge, as is well exemplified by Celtic terminology: Irish fear feasa and Welsh dyn hysbys (both "man of knowledge"), Scots Gaelic fiosaiche (seer, knower), and the older Welsh gwiddon, which is usually translated as "witch" but really means "person of knowledge". It would be useful, when we deal with cultures that have continuous magical traditions, to identify such terminology and associate ourselves with it, rather than describing ourselves by a term translated as "witch" in the anthropological sense.

[ap Dafydd]

In a cultural world in which magic and unauthorised belief are everyday things, then there was a wide vocabulary for the people who used magic. A 17th century Welsh pamphlet had more than 16 different words for magic users, depending on their social status and areas of expertise, of which just one (rheibes) referring to the use of hostile magic.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[skilly-nilly]

Morr, I know what you mean.

If one is interested in 'the traditions of Ireland' as in daily practices, mind-set, world-view---
what I describe as 'going where the Ancient Irish went', then Irish Traditionalists sounds like just the thing.
As it turns out, they are even more McTat (More Celtic than Thou) than Irish ReConstructionists, and their main emphasis is on being fluent in a Gaelic language and mocking the opinions expressed by the less fluent. Not a cuddly bunch to learn anything from or to ask for guidelines. I'm all in favor of learning as much Gaelic as possible, but I support having opinions and ideas even more.
As well, they are fierce opponents of Eclecticism (which I know is important to you) and very against incorporating any Celtic Xianity elements (which is important to both of us) into their practices. To me it's like speaking Gaelic---I see the importance of it and I acknowledge that only using research-attested elements has a purity that upg lacks.

But I think it makes for a meager spiritual practice when (it seems to me) that the pre-conversion Irish probably had as full and meaningful set of all-incompassing daily practices as the post-conversion ones did. So I think that it makes more ReConstructionist sense to have a spirituality strongly tied to daily life than it does to have one that only has well-researched practices. Particularly since I see myself as a common or peasant type of person and archeology and lore about ordinary daily life is distinctly under-represented.

'Irish Traditionalists', however, strongly disagree with my pov. Which is sad because it would make such a lovely and meaningful Path name if it wasn't already 'taken' by grumpy McTats.

[skilly-nilly]

Weirdly, it posted twice when I wasn't even done the first time!
Sorry

[Morr]

Skilly-nilly, I completely understand.

While I view myself as an Irish Polytheist with a mostly re-constructionist leaning, I also love to just learn about other cultures and take their wisdom into account, not necessarily in my own Irish beliefs, but in the big picture of existence, theology, history, culture, and universal truth.

For example, I plan on taking the beginners' class in the Kemetic Orthodox Religion. I don't plan on becoming a Kemet, but I am just interested in learning and gaining knowledge, even if it is not of Irish or Celtic origins.

I guess I don't understand how one can be SO closed minded.

I love my Irish religion and spirituality, I love my Irish Gods, I love everything about Ireland. I will not change my path and my ideals. But I want to broaden my horizons if only to just have knowledge about the world out there and its history.

I hope to study Gaelic one day soon. I simply don't have the proper time to commit. I try to incorporate it as much as I can, which is not much, but I try. One day, I will learn it.

As for the Irish Witchcraft topic, I really am looking I guess for a more Hearth folk ways, ancient Irish herbology and gardening, and stuff of that sort. Especially with my little one coming in a few months, and us moving to a new apartment soon, I want to prepare a more Irish oriented Hearth and Home for my family.

I guess that is where I am going with the Traditional Irish "Witchcraft" thing.

[Faol-chù]

Yes, you will miss a lot because of that word "witchcraft".

Think about it a minute. The word 'buidseach' (Gaelic for 'witch') is borrowed from English.
It was, and had been applied to THEIR PRACTICES, whether they were truly malevolent or not.

The English government was very consciously trying to separate itself from the Celtic cultures (all of them) for sometime. When England decided they were going to become a "Protestant" county, they contrasted themselves against the closest Catholics they knew...and those cultures were mostly the Catholic Gaels. There was a very conscious effort on the part of the English to eliminate "those practices" from society. So, on the part of the English, those ways became the epitome of pagan practices "witchcraft". They then, very politically, applied these negative attributes to the Gaels...both Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic.

No wonder the Gaels (and/or 'Traditionalists') reject this term as being descriptive of what they do.


On another topic...I have to say that it still behooves me how Christian practices can truly be discounted. There is very little evidence for ANYTHING... if Christian practice is not taken into account.

It is my opinion, based on my research and experience that the Christian practices were:

a. slightly altered forms of pre-existing Celtic practices...

b. STILL "Celtic spirituality" no matter how you slice it...just with a belief in Christ considered....

Le meas,

[Garden of Eden]

I know this thread is dead-ish, but I'd thought I'd add my tuppence to the mix. I studied the early Celtic Church as part of my A'level, and then went on to do a bit of deeper study regarding the systems which existed before christianity became prevelent in Ireland (talking 500s, latter part of the century, although there is evidence that Christianity existed in Ireland before this-- it was just secondary to the pagan traditions).

I feel you might struggle to find information specifically relating to people who practiced what we would regard as witchcraft, because a great deal of pagan tradition was absorbed into the new christian faith that began to spread all over Ireland. You only have to look at examples like the equal-armed celtic cross-- where the symbol was identified by missionaries with the crucifix, and the circle behind it became a christianised representation of God, instead of representing the continuity of life and the sun, as it might have to a pagan. Sacred places continued to be used for religious worship, but the religion practiced gradually became altered. All in all, the Christian missons tried to make the transition a smooth one, and probably covered the tracks of the old religon rather better than if they had tried to erase it from memory by some forceful removal of the practices.

Well, that's what I think anyway. Lol.

[Rosetta Morrigan]

Greetings Morr...I know you said you can't afford to buy books right now (me neither!) but for when you do have enuff money, here's a book that may help. It's called "Celtic Magic" by DJ Conway. It's rather good, very neo-pagan, and also features the Olgham alphabet among other things. I'm not for sure that it'll help just thought you may be interested...Best of Luck! :)

[skilly-nilly]

Greetings Morr...I know you said you can't afford to buy books right now (me neither!) but for when you do have enuff money, here's a book that may help. It's called "Celtic Magic" by DJ Conway. It's rather good, very neo-pagan, and also features the Olgham alphabet among other things. I'm not for sure that it'll help just thought you may be interested...Best of Luck! :)

Apart from my own opinion
(**anathema!! dj conway anathema!!**)

a good way to easily get a variety of opinions on a popular book is to search for it on Amazon.com and read the reviews:

"Among literate pagans it has become the poster child for the assertion that Llewellyn has no actual standards and will publish virtually anything without even a cursory review."

"Anything by D.J. Conway is suspect. She's not very knowledgeable about Wicca. This book extends her lack of expertise to Celtic matters."

"...she puts her own spinn on history and does not approach writing with a proffessionalism that most readers require. "

"There are many problems with this book, starting with the fact that the magic system presented, while effective enough, isn't really Celtic at all"

"This book was wholely unimpressive and unoriginal."

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0875421369/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

[ibonewits]

*Snort* <giggle> ^cough, cough^ Er ... um ... wwwweeeelllllll ... Oh My Gods! ROTFLMAO ...

(Sorry. I tried to control myself.)

Just because someone snubs you in Gaelic, it doesn't mean they're not BS-artists.

Witchcraft as a Goddess-centered (or even a Goddess-mentioning) religion is an invention of the 20th century (Gerald Gardner out of Margaret Murray). The kind of "classic witchcraft" or "clever-folk" stuff you're interested in was never called "witchcraft" except by enemies. 99.9% of the people promoting "Celtic Wicca" or "Irish Traditional Witchcraft" are doing standard British Orthodox (i.e., Gardnerian) Wicca with a Scottish, Welsh, or Irish accent.

D. J. Conway? What Skilly-Nilly said. Utterly worthless as far as real history or scholarship are concerned.

The closest thing to what modern Pagans think of as authentic Irish folk magic is that of the "clever men" and "knowing women," who mixed herbology, folk-vet medicine, and folk magic with mostly Christian prayers at mostly Pagan (originally) sites.

What you want are books on folklore and folk-medicine written in the last fifty years, such as Kevin Danaher's The Year in Ireland or Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun. Don't trust anything written on Druids and old Irish Paganism that's older than fifty years either. Look at the reading lists of groups like ADF, Keltria, Imbas, and the Summerlands.

And if someone tells you they have a Secret Underground Tradition of Authentic Irish Witchcraft Going Back to the Pre-Patriarchal Universal Goddess Cult, just smile sweetly and tell them Pogue mo honne! ("pohg-mah-hone")

cheers,
Isaac

[haw_thrn]

[quote=ibonewits;3404821]*Snort* <giggle> ^cough, cough^ Er ... um ... wwwweeeelllllll ... Oh My Gods! ROTFLMAO ...

(Sorry. I tried to control myself.)

Just because someone snubs you in Gaelic, it doesn't mean they're not BS-artists.

"Witchcraft as a Goddess-centered (or even a Goddess-mentioning) religion is an invention of the 20th century (Gerald Gardner out of Margaret Murray). The kind of "classic witchcraft" or "clever-folk" stuff you're interested in was never called "witchcraft" except by enemies. 99.9% of the people promoting "Celtic Wicca" or "Irish Traditional Witchcraft" are doing standard British Orthodox (i.e., Gardnerian) Wicca with a Scottish, Welsh, or Irish accent."


well said



"The closest thing to what modern Pagans think of as authentic Irish folk magic is that of the "clever men" and "knowing women," who mixed herbology, folk-vet medicine, and folk magic with mostly Christian prayers at mostly Pagan (originally) sites."

good point



"And if someone tells you they have a Secret Underground Tradition of Authentic Irish Witchcraft Going Back to the Pre-Patriarchal Universal Goddess Cult, just smile sweetly and tell them Pogue mo honne! ("pohg-mah-hone")"
'
what did you say at the start of your post?

[ibonewits]

Doras feasa fiafraigh.
The door to knowledge is indeed (to ask) a question.

However, Nil an uile muinteoiri eagnai!

slan agat,
Isaac