who to choose?

[shnen]

I just heard one of the most horrendous stories that happened right here in Toronto, at Mount Sainai (sp?) hospital.

It is a jewish hospital, and this pregnant woman went in for an exam - you get when you are pregnant - I have no idea what they're called... and she was found to have breast cancer.
So She's a few months pregnant with breast cancer.
Now, they can either abort the baby and save the woman, or they can let the woman eventually die as the cancer speeads and have her carry to full term...

Her HUSBAND, being of the jewish faith, gets to say what happens... so instead of caring about the life long partner he supposidly is devoted to, he chooses not to have the baby aborted so they could NOT catch the cancer, hence this woman has to bear a child while knowing she is dying because of her husband, knowing he values the child more then her???
I would seriously, rethink my decisions, get a divorce and an abortion... more children can always be had... :mad:

Ok something is seriously wrong here. You get married THEY are your life partner (situations pending, but in this one... humour me ok???) you choose a baby over your mate - that's sickening.

This pisses me off because I have a heart condition, unknown to any doctor what is wrong with me, and if I ever choose to have children it could mena that the guy has total control of if this happens to me... I AM sorry... MY BODY, MY CHOICE!

:mad:

[Chibi-Fallon]

If that were me, he'd be packin'. I say she beats his ass. Afterall you can't hit a pregnant woman. :D

[Emaleth]

This is sick! :sick: I understand that it's a hard decision, but it is not for the man to decide. I bet that if he was a pregnant woman with cancer, he wouldn't hesitate to have an abortion:meanface:
I wonder who will raise the baby if the woman dies, cause the guy doesn't seem to capable of doing that:razz:

Blessed Be

[Flaire]

Okay, I don't know much about the Jewish religion...But I don't understand why the husband got to choose what happened to his wife.

Also, I think that why the husband chose for his wife to keep the baby was so he would always have a part of her with him, even though the wife will end up dying from the cancer. :( Sad story though.

[shnen]

Originally posted by Flaire
Okay, I don't know much about the Jewish religion...But I don't understand why the husband got to choose what happened to his wife.

Also, I think that why the husband chose for his wife to keep the baby was so he would always have a part of her with him, even though the wife will end up dying from the cancer. :( Sad story though.

But Flaire, his wife would have lived if he had chosen her. They could always try and hava nother baby later too...

[Flaire]

It could have been a "just in case" thing...:eyebrow:

[shnen]

it was early detection Flaire, really easy to cure...

OK, just the fact of making another human being suffer (cancer is painful) so you can have a child (which again is painful)...

Selfish to deny her the treatment she should rightfully deserve.

[manstranger]

what did the woman want? For the husband to make the decision? Cause if that wasn't what she wanted, i doubt it wouldn't have happened. There has to be more to it than "her husband picked the baby sted of her".

[Djiril]

In Hebrew school I was taught that according to Jewish law the baby should be aborted.
To quote the textbook:
"...the unborn child is compared to ha-Rodef, the One-Who-Pursues. It is as if the unborn child is chasing after the mother's life. If it is a choice between the two, then it is the mother who is to be saved."

[Flaire]

Originally posted by Djiril
In Hebrew school I was taught that according to Jewish law the baby should be aborted.
To quote the textbook:
"...the unborn child is compared to ha-Rodef, the One-Who-Pursues. It is as if the unborn child is chasing after the mother's life. If it is a choice between the two, then it is the mother who is to be saved."

Aah...That makes more sense then. :)

[Flar's Freyja]

NO WOMAN IS REQUIRED TO BUILD THE WORLD BY DESTROYING HERSELF

[shnen]

Originally posted by manstranger
what did the woman want? For the husband to make the decision? Cause if that wasn't what she wanted, i doubt it wouldn't have happened. There has to be more to it than "her husband picked the baby sted of her".

I wish I knew how to double quote here...

Manstranger, she has no choice. The article said that the man has the complete choice in the matter. She has none.

Djiril, Then I'm not so sure what happened in this case, but apparently this thing happens a lot...

Freyja - Love you! (as usual!):heartthro

[Yvonne Belisle]

:( there is nothing happy in that choice or options.

[Alphyna]

Well, I agree with the husband. If I was dying and it was me or my unborn...There is no way I would abort my child to save myself. Our children are our fuure, and what kind of message are we sending if we choose ourselves over them. As my husband just said, he would think it to be one of the highest honours to give his life to allow anothers. Really think about WHY you are choosing your life over anothers.

How could you say that the man could not care for a child? Just b/c he is choosing giving the unborn a chance at life, over his wife who has lead a beautiful life, had the chance to fall in love, and give life??!!?
Really think about what you guys are sending as a message here.
Sarah

[shnen]

Originally posted by Alphyna
Well, I agree with the husband. If I was dying and it was me or my unborn...There is no way I would abort my child to save myself. Our children are our fuure, and what kind of message are we sending if we choose ourselves over them. As my husband just said, he would think it to be one of the highest honours to give his life to allow anothers. Really think about WHY you are choosing your life over anothers.

How could you say that the man could not care for a child? Just b/c he is choosing giving the unborn a chance at life, over his wife who has lead a beautiful life, had the chance to fall in love, and give life??!!?
Really think about what you guys are sending as a message here.
Sarah

WAIT... she wasn't dying... she had a cureable cancer!
You can always have more children...

I'm not saying a man couldn't care for a child.. maybe you should read it again!

[Emaleth]

Originally posted by Alphyna
Well, I agree with the husband. If I was dying and it was me or my unborn...There is no way I would abort my child to save myself.

You wouldn't, but would you let anyone else make the decision? Against your will? If I was in such a situaiton maybe I'd chose to have the baby, but I'd not allow anybody else, even my husband to decide if I am to die or not.

Blessed Be

[Alphyna]

I do realize that it was cureable cancer, but she can never have that child again...It is a choice between sacrificing yourself for the life of another. I would do that, as would my husband. I could not be so selfish as to kill my child to save myself.

I wonder who will raise the baby if the woman dies, cause the guy doesn't seem to capable of doing that

This was to what I was referring to as to the capabilities of child rearing by the husband. Why would it be that he cannot raise a child b/c he knows how to love the unborn and sees their valuability to have a new life, a chance at life when the wife has already had one?
As for allowing my husband to choose my fate? I totally trust my husband to do so. He knows what I want out of life, he knows my values, he knows me. I would not have married him if I did not trust him to do what is best for our family, individually and as a whole.

[Emaleth]

Originally posted by shnen


I'm not saying a man couldn't care for a child.. maybe you should read it again!

OK, I guess I said that;) I don't know, he just seemed that type of a man who is a lord in his house and family, you know, making all decisions and doing nothing, that's why I thought he wouldn't be able to take care of the the baby. But as my sister pointed out, he'd probably get himself another wife:D

Blessed Be

[Alphyna]

Yeah, unfortunately that is probably the case.:(
I think it is aweful that women are regardes as such, but hopefully they can someday find the strength to stop this behaviour.
Much Love and Peace to All, Sarah

[MammaStar]

okay, maybe i'm missing something....but I've read the original post 2x now. And yes, it was put upon the husband to make the decision. however, do we all really know what happened? The people writing the story & the dr's do not know (at least I didn't read anything into it) that this man DID NOT discuss it with his wife. How do we truly know what happened behind the closed door? Were you there?

I think before we beat the poor guy up, who had to make a heart wrenching decision. Yes, on paper everything looked like the woman can survive. But do we know that for sure? How can we know anything for sure. Yesterday, Lisa Lopes was on vacation hanging with her loved ones. Today she's dead. No one saw that coming.

My point here is, let us not pass judgement on what we don't have all the facts on.

[manstranger]

Originally posted by shnen


I wish I knew how to double quote here...

Manstranger, she has no choice. The article said that the man has the complete choice in the matter. She has none.

Djiril, Then I'm not so sure what happened in this case, but apparently this thing happens a lot...

Freyja - Love you! (as usual!):heartthro

Read LdyStarlight's post. Theres a heck of alot of assumption about the husband and wife's wants.

[Xander67]

I dont think that whether or not all the facts were known were the issue, the issue was , man chooses baby and says sorry wifey poo but thats life....

That is not love I am sorry. Goddess forbid I was ever in that situation, i would have chosen the wife...but I would think that if he really loved her and cared about her like he said he did when he married her, he would have wanted to consider what his wife wanted...

I have mixed feelings on abortion, but one thing I will say is NO man has any right to take away a womans right to choose to live.

I know if it were my wife, I would support andstand behind her 100% in her decision! that is what love is!!!

[MammaStar]

Again, the article writes that the baby's life was chosen. That the Husband gave the "okay" for that choice. I repeat, how do we know that he didn't talk to his wife & he voiced their shared opinion. We don't & as it sounds, neither did the person who wrote the newspaper article.

We all like to think that because we're in love, we'd choose our mate no matter what. That's all well & good now, while we're not in crisis. However, do any of us know what we would truly do in that kind of situation. For me, honestly, I don't know. However, I think, given a choice, I'd choose my child. I'd choose my son over my own self any day now, I don't think it would change for an unborn child as well. But that's me, I don't choose to live the lifestyle that this couple is reported to be living. I can't speak for them.

Maybe I'm naive about what goes on, but I'd like to think that I know a little something about this couples particualr culture (live in a very heavy populated Orthodox & Hasidic area). While I've seen some horrid examples of women having no rights, I've seen more good, than bad. Men respecting their wives opinions, lives, etc. As well as their children. So, if it's "rose colored" glasses I'm looking through while reading this, so be it.

[shnen]

trying to find article...

[Flaire]

I'm with LdyStarlite on this one.

[Margie]

I agree-we don't know what kind of agonizing conversations the husband and wife had together. Should they save the wife and maybe have her die 2-3 years later from a relapse? Should they save the healthy child so the father could spend the rest of his life loving the child and showing him/her how much the mother loved them? The article doesn't say that the husband just turned around and said "kill the wife I want my baby" which does sounds callus. We don't know that. We have no idea. We've come to those conclusions on our own but none of us really know what happened behind closed doors. All we know is the outcome.

[Nissala]

I agree with LdyStarlite and Margie, we cannot know the total situation only what we have read or been told....

I understand the agnst and anger of some in this situation especially where the man has made the decision for the woman, But we do not know what discussions this couple have had.

When I was pregnant with one my children, I feared something happening to me ( it didn't but the fear was there) I told my husband that if it came to a choice of me or the baby choose the baby, I have lived (at that time 22 years) and the baby was intitled to live even that meant me dying. To this day if it came to a choice of me dying or one of my children, I would happily choose myself......

this is my opinion anyway....

[WandererInGray]

Frankly I think the selfish choice is the one that deprives the child of its mother. That's not a weight I'd want to carry about with me for the rest of my life.

This may sound callous but it's true...in previous societys the mother's life was always valued over the baby's. For the simple reason that they could reproduce again. Where as with a child *if* it's a girl, the community would have to wait at least 12-15 years before she would be ready to reproduce.

When it comes down to survival of the species, the mother always comes first.

[Margie]

You make good points, don't get me wrong. But how many times in conversations about such things do you hear yourself or other saying "Well, we need to keep reproducing" "You know, survival of the human species and all". I don't think that's what these people were thinking...hmm...if it's a girl we'll have to wait YEARS before she can reproduce but if we save this woman she can continue to help populate the earth. Whatever conversations they had concerning this situation I would bet had nothing to do with that. I bet they had to do with feelings and loss no matter what the choice was. Neither choice could've been easy.

But-who knows, maybe they were talking about species survival and world population. ;) I have a feeling we will never know.

[Arduinna]

Well there are alot of issues surrounding this one. First do we even know if this is a true story? Sounds like one of those urban legends. Of course pregnant women can get cancer, but where is it written in Canadian law that the husband gets to decide her fate? I don't believe it's true. At least the part of him having the control to decide for her.

If she gave him said decision to make, then that is their choice. Having been Jewish, but leaving the faith I have never heard of such control over wives. Were these people Chasids? And even if they were, but reputable hospital would allow her to have no choice in her care?

Having said all that, I've had this discussion with my husband before and he said he would choose me, where as I said I would choose the baby. Interesting.

Also, even breast cancer is not guarenteed curable, many many women die from this even with treatment. So there is never a guarenteed cure with any cancer.

Maybe I missed it, since I just skimmed the previous posts, but is there a link to an actual news article to confirm this really happened and the particulars?

[Arduinna]

oh, and with a world population over 6 billion I don't think species survival has anything to do with this.

[Margie]

I agree with your above post. There wasn't a link provided...Shnen? Do you have a link or did you see it on the news or in a newspaper? It could probably be looked up. Thanks.

[WandererInGray]

Hmmmm...I believe I said in previous societies that was the reason. Not that it was the reason for this one.

And you know what? Survival of the species works both ways. Overpopulation will kill just as quickly as underpopulation does.

[Margie]

True

[Semele]

Wow, this could get to be quite a heated debate. I have to say that I agree with a lot of what has ben posted, so I wont repeat it all. To summerize there are no guarantees in life. No guarantee she will live if treated, no guarantee she will die if not treated. No guarantee the child will survive. The point is we cannot make INFROMED decisions in this area because noone...doctor, preacher, ...noone can tell you that this or this will happen absolutely. It is a risk and the couple has to weigh those risks together.

As for the husband making all the decisions, I believe if that is the case then that is the wife's desire. Otherwise she could/would make her own decisions at the insistance of the hospital staff. I have seen similar situations...for instance a middle eastern woman who didn't want to breastfeed and her husband was insisting she had to. The nursing staff stepped in and told her it was not an absolut requirment and she then spoke to her husband about her desires. Something this serious...if she wanted something different she would have been given ample opportunity to make it so.

As for my personal opinion if I were in this situation...let me share my own personal story that I haven't shared with many so far. Mol and I have tried to get pregnant for a long time now and have finally succeeded. Also, I have had many vision problems and severe headaches that often keep me in bed all day in tears. I have an MRI scheduled for Monday to find out for sure, but it is most likely a brain tumor...a pituitary adenoma. These are totally treatable with medication and/or surgery. There are a couple of drawbacks to pregnancy though...being in the pituitary gland ...the tumor can more than double in size during pregnancy due to the natural state of hormone release etc. The problem is that it is already, assumably, rather large to have caused the symnptoms it has. The medication is not necessarily contraindicated during pregnancy, but it can make you very ill, which in turn has an effect on the baby. Some of the research I have done says that they will often recommend an abortion until the tumor can be treated. This is not even an option for us. I would never do this. I feel like I am not the one to make a decision like this. If it isn't meant to be then it wont happen, but I am not going to say, "Ok, lets dump this one and fix me then we can have another" I happen to know it is not that easy. Now, noone has told me that I will die if I don't make another choice, the worst would probably be an extremely uncomfortable nine months and possible surgery during pregnancy...which holds many risks to both mother and fetus. I don't believe my opinion would change in the least if someone told me it was a possible choice of my life or my child's.

[Margie]

{{Hugs}} Semele. Thank you very much for sharing your story. I totally agree with what you said. I hope you can get the care that you need and that it does not affect the baby in any way. You are a strong woman and nothing about your situation is easy! You will be in my thoughts!

[MammaStar]

Semele, thank you for sharing you VERY personal story. ((((BIG HUGS)))) to you and to the rest of the family. Decisions like the ones you face and the woman in the news story reported are very hard indeed.

My thoughts are with you and Mol. :heartthro :heartthro

[Yvonne Belisle]

Thank you it is easy for all of us to say I would or wouldn't but untill we are in that situation we really don't know. You are there and the choice can't be easy on either of you. I do know that you have many online friends that will be routing for you and the little one. We are here whenever you need us.

[shnen]

(((Semele))) thanks so much for sharing, and yes, if you ever need anything, let us know.

Margie, I have been searching and searching. It was in a Toronto Newspaper and they don't seem to have archives... I am still searching...

[Yvonne Belisle]

If you are close enough you should be able to call and ask about the article and where you could get more information. :)

[Margie]

Originally posted by shnen
(((Semele))) thanks so much for sharing, and yes, if you ever need anything, let us know.

Margie, I have been searching and searching. It was in a Toronto Newspaper and they don't seem to have archives... I am still searching...

No prob, let us know if you find it. I believe you, that the story happened ;) It just usually help others to have the concrete documentation. There might be some more details in there we can argue about. ;) LOL *kidding*

[shnen]

:lol: Put your dukes up Margie! ;) :lol:

I am still searching for it, and yes, I know it would be nice to have the whole story up...:)