Pagan Pantheist or Pantheist Pagan?

[Windsmith]

I'm having this terminology debate with myself: do I call myself a Pantheist(ic) Pagan or a Pagan Pantheist? To me, the terms are not interchangable, the same way I finally realized (after far too many years) what the difference was between the blue-green and the green-blue in my crayon box.

I see whichever word comes first as modifying the one that comes after, so the 2nd word becomes more central. So if I say "Pagan Pantheist," I'm saying I'm a Pantheist with, as Birdy would say, "Pagan tendencies." In my case, those tendencies are rituals and practices. If I say "Pantheist Pagan," then I give centrality to Paganness, and Pantheism becomes just a way of clarifying the otherwise muddy waters of, "Yes, but what kind of Pagan?"

My instincts lean toward "Pagan Pantheist" because my beliefs are more important to me than my practices. Take away the "Pagan" from "Pagan Pantheist," and you still have a good idea of my spirituality. But take away the "Pantheist" from "Pantheist Pagan," and you've missed the boat almost entirely.

Why, then, the dilemma? Well, darn it all, I'm also a writer and performer, and I'm having trouble dealing with the fact that, to my ear, "Pantheist Pagan" just seems to scan so much better! _whistle_

So, let's hear from all the rest of you who identify as both Pagan and Pantheistic. What terminology do you use?

[peggyelizabeth]

:idea: whoa.
Windsmith you have got to stop asking such min-blowing questions!

I'm just starting to wrap my mind around the fact that I'm a Patheiest and that I'm a Pagan and suddenly, my mind is reeling with how I put them together as a descriptor!

Well, here's some random thoughts for now.
When I'm talking to another Pagan, then I'm totally Pantheist first. It clears things up from the start & no one assumes that I'm something that I'm not.

Beyond that, I'm stumped. It's like we need another word, that means both Pagan and Pantheist but that doesn't place on of them before the other. Of course, that's just a way of avoiding the real question.

hmmmmmm, must think more...

[cheddarsox]

Windsmith already knows this..but I idenify myself as an Ardent Pantheist, and am taking the time to define what that means.

The term pagan is pretty amorphous, but does get the idea across that a person is probably into ritual and digs nature.

Personally, I like Pagan Pantheist better, because Pantheist as the main thing...gives a stronger foundation than Pantheistic Pagan, which seems way vague to me.

cheddar

[Eleisawolf]

I'm a Pantheistic Pagan. I use it that way because both of them are my beliefs, but I feel Pagan is the general description and Pantheism is what narrows it down.

If someone asks me what religion or spirituality I am, I say, "I'm a Pagan." They say, "What kind, Wiccan? Celtic? Shamanistic?" I say, "Pantheistic."

That works for me, because Pagan gives them the general idea that,

a) I'm more nature based
b) I'm not one of the big 5
c) I do practice ritual.

Then, Pantheistic helps give more detail.

a) Not fully god-based but open to the idea of gods
b) Focused on truth as it can be demonstrated scientifically, but with a healthy dose of subjective experience-based belief
c) With great reverence for "what is."

I also like that it flows better. I can make it work the way I need it to work.

:)

Peace

[Windsmith]

Windsmith you have got to stop asking such min-blowing questions!Seriously, this is just the junk that pops into my mind in the shower. What I come up with when I'm really thinking about it - now that's some scary stuff.

I'm just starting to wrap my mind around the fact that I'm a Patheiest and that I'm a Pagan and suddenly, my mind is reeling with how I put them together as a descriptor!Oh, don't worry about it, seriously. Knowing what you believe and, perhaps, having some practices that help you express those beliefs is soooo much more important than the label you put on it.

When I'm talking to another Pagan, then I'm totally Pantheist first. It clears things up from the start & no one assumes that I'm something that I'm not.That's an excellent point. Pagans make a lot of assumptions when we talk to each other. Being clear from the beginning is a smart move.

It's like we need another word, that means both Pagan and Pantheist but that doesn't place on of them before the other.Panthagan? Sounds like a math term. Pagtheist? No, that makes me seem like a follower of some god called Pag. Heh. Part of the difficulty with finding or creating a new word is that every time we use it, we have to explain to people what it means. I think some of us have a hard enough time getting other people to understand what we mean by "Pantheism" without throwing new words into it.

Personally, I like Pagan Pantheist better, because Pantheist as the main thing...gives a stronger foundation than Pantheistic Pagan, which seems way vague to me.cheddarGood point. If I say I'm a Pantheistic Pagan, I could still be a Pantheistic Druid, or a Pantheistic Wiccan, or just a Pantheistic chick who likes to run around in the woods.

I'm a Pantheistic Pagan. I use it that way because both of them are my beliefs, but I feel Pagan is the general description and Pantheism is what narrows it down.Maybe that's why I'm struggling with this. When I first pitched head-first into Pantheism, I felt the same way. But now I'm feeling a shift: Pantheism is becoming the general description of belief and Pagan describes a certain approach to the belief, rather than necessarily being a belief in itself. Does that make sense to you? Because I'm not altogether sure it does to me.

I also like that it flows better.Curse you, English language!!! :atantrum:

[Eleisawolf]

I think it could be that I define Pagan differently from you all. I just use it as the catch all for earth-based religions that don't belong to the big five (the country dweller thing, you know?). I get a sense that you all ascribe more meaning to it than that.

I would guess that part of the answer would be: can you change the semantics of the words in your mind to fit what you believe, or do you have to define your beliefs by what the words mean?

Remember, language is a living breathing thing. Do you need to redefine the word Pagan for yourself, or does it control how you use it? If the latter, then let the flow be darned (English has never been that pretty a language, why start now?). If you can adjust your view of the word to fit you, instead of the other way around, then you can maintain the flow.

*shrug* I just watched My Fair Lady. My take for the week is, "Words, words, words, I'm so sick of words!"... (http://www.plasticbag.org/archives/2005/05/the_lyrics_of_show_me_from_my_fair_lady/)

On the one hand, not a great place for a writer. On the other hand, the perfect place for a writer.

8O

Peace

[Sage Rainsong]

My instincts lean toward "Pagan Pantheist" because my beliefs are more important to me than my practices.

Yay I love terminology debates!
I think that you should go with your instincts. If you put Pagan first, I think that it's describing your kind of Pantheism which is more important to you. It seems more accurate IMO.