Is it true?

[hikarilove]

I hesitate to post this thread because I know it might cause some heated discussion. But, since I love chaos, I threw that hesitation right out the window with the bathwater!

Lately, I've been asking myself what I do and do not believe in. These decisions have nothing to do with logic or reason - they are simple, intuitive answers. I can either convince myself of something my heart is unsure of or just listen to my heart... so, I take the second choice. For instance, I've decided that I do not believe in karma. I believe that you get what you give, but that the force which gives out judgement is compassionate and understands circumstances. So, if you steal food for your starving family, you will not be harmed. (In my mind, anyway.) Obviously, this belief isn't universal.

I started to wonder - if you do not believe in something, does your disbelief necessarily negate its existence? Most Neo-Pagans would hasten to say that, as long as someone believes in it, it exists and that you cannot undermine someone else's personal faith/opinions just because you disagree. However, many Neo-Pagans will tell you that they do not believe in the Christian Satan. Does that mean he does not exist? If the existence of Isis is not contingent on my own belief in her, is the existence of Satan? Can things I do not believe in still affect me because other people, elsewhere are pouring their energies into those thoughtforms?

I would like your opinions on the matter. :) Please play nicely or I'll eat you.

...no, really. I've not yet had breakfast. Mmm... jam.

[HadouKen24]

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--Phillip K. Dick

[Nitefalle]

Mmm....yes and no. I think that when something doesn't enter into your personal reality, it doesn't cease to exist, but there is a barrier there. I am not a Christian, so I don't believe that I will go to Hell, no matter how evil I am. I think something bad will happen to me, in the form of grand karmic retribution (I will come back as a much lower life form, or have to start waaaay over in my spiritual evolutionary journey, etc.), but it will not be the Christian version of retribution. Taking your example of not believing in Isis, (and being a hard polytheist myself), I do not think she ceases to exist upon the whim of your belief, but I think she ceases to exist *for you*. If she tried contacting you, she would have a hell of a time because there is a great big barrier of disbelief there between you and her. Does that make any sense at all?

[Fairy_Princess]

I believe Christianity is a complete fiction, however the deity the Christians stole to make their Devil Satan exist. He existed previous to what the Christians did by adding him to their writings. Like Baal and many others in Bible, they were previously existing deity's anyway just thrown in into the Bible to try and make it more valid and of course to demonize any god but the one of the Christians.

The Biblical Hell and Heaven are complete fabrications on the other hand.

[Toby Stimpson]

Well, you ask an interesting question, and if I understand your question correctly, then really there is no definitive answers.


I started to wonder - if you do not believe in something, does your disbelief necessarily negate its existence? Most Neo-Pagans would hasten to say that, as long as someone believes in it, it exists and that you cannot undermine someone else's personal faith/opinions just because you disagree.

I think this is rooted in modern paganism, because it is so diverse, for the sake of the 'Faith' and the longstanding continuation of the community. We are the last remnants of those ancient religions that even then were separated by thousands of miles, sometimes, and with no direct contact. How do you keep a unified Pagan community going if not to propagate a pluralistic view in the very core shared ideals? It is much easier to be co-exists than become an apologetic for your own beliefs... to the downfall of all others.



However, many Neo-Pagans will tell you that they do not believe in the Christian Satan. Does that mean he does not exist? If the existence of Isis is not contingent on my own belief in her, is the existence of Satan?

This is the interesting question. I mean, I think this is the hyporcracy but also the showing of differing pluralistic ideas. I mean Im sure that Christian Pagans, PaganMuslims (If there are such a thing)...or even those who do see such a plurality between Good and Evil, not Satan perse, but good and evil. It comes down to what YOU believe in, I think. If you see a Satan in your world, he'll be there... if not, then he wont be there. I think also it takes a critical eye to understand the differences between relaity and metaphor. Do i believe some monster somewhere literally holds the Tibetan wheel of life in his hands? No, I don't. But he exists also, because he has a purpose as a piece of mythology and a metaphor. It becomes a struggle for me really to really define and look at the dividing line between taking things literally in mythology, and then taking things metaphorically.



Can things I do not believe in still affect me because other people, elsewhere are pouring their energies into those thoughtforms?

No one can know. In reality, how do we know these thought forms are real? How do we know reality is real? But at the same time I might think of it this way: if other people believe in them, and their beliefs control or impact their day to day lives... and their actions also impact on your life, INDIRECTLY... the spiritual being (whatever it is) who holds so much power in other people's lives will impact your life through the actions f those people. If that makes sense. Now whether they directly impact your life? Well, that is up to debate... If I don't believe in Santa Clause, does it mean he doesn't impact my life?

Now to address your overall question... does a single disbelief in something negate it's existence? I would say no... because the realm of spirituality is so large and the confines of the Universe do not just end at physical, there is infinite number of realities... each one with an infinite number of planes of existance. Thats one belief I hold. But, if this is so, lets assume, then there is room for anything to exist... thoughtforms... spiritual beings... Humans past present and future... all making a complex web. I might also say that one may be in ignorance of something if they have never encountered it. if you have never encountered Isis... then to you she is not real. But to someone who has, she is real. This is where it becomes important to criticize but also look with a dual perspective.

And then ofcourse, in the end... what does it really matter? if your life is where you want it to be with the beings or associations you want... then what does it matter?

Namaste

Tobias

[David19]

I believe Christianity is a complete fiction, however the deity the Christians stole to make their Devil Satan exist. He existed previous to what the Christians did by adding him to their writings. Like Baal and many others in Bible, they were previously existing deity's anyway just thrown in into the Bible to try and make it more valid and of course to demonize any god but the one of the Christians.

The Biblical Hell and Heaven are complete fabrications on the other hand.

Just wanted to say, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a complete fiction, 'cause for one, Satan really isn't based on any other god, as so many people believe - one source was most likely the Jewish Azazel, a demon who led a rebellion against YHWH, and who was part of the scapegoat ritual the Jews performed on the Day of Attonement (sending one goat into the wilderness with the sins of the tribe to Azazel, and one goat was sacrificed to YHWH).

Plus, it can be argued that having a place of reward and punishment goes back to the ancient Greeks and the Egyptians, so if you say the Christians are wrong, then I guess Hellenic Pagans and Kemetics are also "deluded".

[inkywitch]

I believe Christianity is a complete fiction, however the deity the Christians stole to make their Devil Satan exist. He existed previous to what the Christians did by adding him to their writings. Like Baal and many others in Bible, they were previously existing deity's anyway just thrown in into the Bible to try and make it more valid and of course to demonize any god but the one of the Christians.

The Biblical Hell and Heaven are complete fabrications on the other hand.

To be honest... I agree totally. I mean, believe what you want to believe and if you're Christian, good for you. But personally, I honesty see Christianity as complete fiction, based somewhat on older 'religions' and deities. Some became saints. Other demons, or other evil entities. One got special kudos and got the job of Satan.

Its like those movies thats write about true stories with the disclaimer "Based on a real story" because the writer/director took some crazy creative licence and added/ditched parts of it and made it their own story.

To answer the original question tho... I guess it depends on how you define reality. I don't believe Satan exists. Perhaps as many people do believe him, perhaps he has become a powerful thought form over time and is now a separate being to the Horned God that is depicted as what Christians bases Satan off.

Kinda scary thought tho.. creating the thought form you embody as the ultimate evil, and then giving him premission to have influence over you... very scary thought!

[Fairy_Princess]

Just wanted to say, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a complete fiction, 'cause for one, Satan really isn't based on any other god, as so many people believe - one source was most likely the Jewish Azazel, a demon who led a rebellion against YHWH, and who was part of the scapegoat ritual the Jews performed on the Day of Attonement (sending one goat into the wilderness with the sins of the tribe to Azazel, and one goat was sacrificed to YHWH).

Plus, it can be argued that having a place of reward and punishment goes back to the ancient Greeks and the Egyptians, so if you say the Christians are wrong, then I guess Hellenic Pagans and Kemetics are also "deluded".


"Based on Real events" is not the same a "Non-Fiction history". Just because the Bible is based on other religions, downright plagarizing them in some instances, doesn't make anything more than fiction. Just because Hell resembles The Underworld doesn't mean both (or even either) are true.

[Toby Stimpson]

"Based on Real events" is not the same a "Non-Fiction history". Just because the Bible is based on other religions, downright plagarizing them in some instances, doesn't make anything more than fiction. Just because Hell resembles The Underworld doesn't mean both (or even either) are true.

I dont think this is accurate... you cannot say that it was plagiarized, it was adapted yes, but how many religions in the world have adapted from Christianity? Islam for instance, under your definition are nothing more than plagiarizers of the Christian Bible.

Religions don't steal... they adapt, they evolve... it really is the ultimate darwinian concept, what works best and the strongest beliefs of the people will change the religion to go towards a certain direction. Christianity in it's current forms are guilty of a Lot, but academic dishonesty or "Plagiarism" is not one of them. Because if they are... ALL pagan religions right now are Plagiarized from the original because no one here has any living relative that was an ancient celt, indeed there are no true bloodlines so no one can say they are following the ancient religions because really I look around and theres a lot of people that don't have any idea what the ancient religions were, but are happy to take and swap. BUT, this is what i would call evolution... not plagiarism

[RavenStars]

This isn’t about belief for me. My experience intellectually, emotionally, intuitively, or some combination of these, leads me to certain understandings.

Beliefs are so absolute in most people’s usage. Whether Christian or otherwise. There are so many shades of beliefs that they are almost shames, even among religions that try to set out specifically what to believe and not to believe in books and traditions.

Is the evil spirit blue or green or red? Depends on where you live. People go to war over shades of the same belief set.

I rebel against this by talking about my understanding. I also rebel by talking about inclusive religious beliefs... with the stipulation that they are at heart good. Each person has a different experience of the Divine, whether it’s a god or not. If your understanding is in heaven or summer land, in divine retribution or divine love, each is valid to that person.

[Mitsuko]

On the note of the Christian beliefs being fiction, here's a funny tidbit for you:

One of my friends was banned from the Borders bookstore for systematically moving every bible in the store to the fiction section.

[hikarilove]

Essentially, I think all religions are based in fiction. I mean, who decided that some crazy woman who hangs out at cross-roads, likes fish, and lives in the Underworld would be named Hecate and should be worshipped? Someone with a sense of humor! ;)

My point is, people believe in different entities and put their thought energies into them. I firmly believe that one's thoughtforms can take life if given enough attention. If I sit around thinking to myself, "I have cancer," then I will probably find a tumor! If I pray to Ishtar, then I will probably find Ishtar! (Not to compare Ishtar with cancer, God forbid.)

But... if you DON'T believe in something, can it still affect you? If you ask Thor to do something on your behalf which would affect someone who does not believe in Thor, will it still happen? Do prayers to the Christian God affect those of us who do not believe in him?

[~NightFire~]

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--Phillip K. Dick

That goes along with what I think.

I think that some things are real/exist, & some things don't-whether you believe in them or not.

For example if you were to say 'I don't believe in Bees', all the bees in the world wouldn't then cease to exist. :lol:

In the same way, I think that just because you believe in something, it doesn't make it real.

But I think that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, & with some (like Heaven & Hell) you won't know if that's the reality until you die.

At the end of the day, I think that beliefs (especially spiritual & religious ones) are about following your heart. :hahugh:

[Adrianus]

I believe Christianity is a complete fiction, however the deity the Christians stole to make their Devil Satan exist. He existed previous to what the Christians did by adding him to their writings. Like Baal and many others in Bible, they were previously existing deity's anyway just thrown in into the Bible to try and make it more valid and of course to demonize any god but the one of the Christians.

I certainly agree.

[Adrianus]

Essentially, I think all religions are based in fiction...

I believe you are correct.


Do prayers to the Christian God affect those of us who do not believe in him?

Well, if so, us witches are in deep deep trouble. :boing:

[Fairy_Princess]

I dont think this is accurate... you cannot say that it was plagiarized, it was adapted yes, but how many religions in the world have adapted from Christianity? Islam for instance, under your definition are nothing more than plagiarizers of the Christian Bible.

Religions don't steal... they adapt, they evolve... it really is the ultimate darwinian concept, what works best and the strongest beliefs of the people will change the religion to go towards a certain direction. Christianity in it's current forms are guilty of a Lot, but academic dishonesty or "Plagiarism" is not one of them. Because if they are... ALL pagan religions right now are Plagiarized from the original because no one here has any living relative that was an ancient celt, indeed there are no true bloodlines so no one can say they are following the ancient religions because really I look around and theres a lot of people that don't have any idea what the ancient religions were, but are happy to take and swap. BUT, this is what i would call evolution... not plagiarism

Religion certainly do steal. They always have, they always will. Christianity is just a little heavier handed at it than most. So I most certainly can make the statement I made. I also don't have any problem admitting that all other religions are guilty of the same thing to one degree or another, Christianity as I said is a lot worse at it than others.

[David19]

Religion certainly do steal. They always have, they always will. Christianity is just a little heavier handed at it than most. So I most certainly can make the statement I made. I also don't have any problem admitting that all other religions are guilty of the same thing to one degree or another, Christianity as I said is a lot worse at it than others.

I don't think Christianity is more guilty of "stealing" than other religions, it's just people seem to be more obsessed with what Christians "stole".

Wicca "stole" a lot from Christianity (e.g. from Ceremonial magic, from Freemasonry, etc), some of the Celtic holidays, some of the Norse holidays, etc.

Like Galadraal said, religions adapt, they absorb things from other cultures, that's what happens when religions aren't static.

Also, think of the Roman's, they "stole" loads of gods from people and religions, the Roman Cult of Isis was stolen from the Egyptians, yet apparantly, they added so much to it, it became less Egyptian.

It could be argued the Greeks "stole" lots of things from the Middle East - many gods have their origins there, myths (e.g. the flood myth is actually Sumerian, etc), even the concept of democracy has it's origins in what is now Basra(sp?), etc.

If we say one religion is "false", then that means every religion is false, and that could be true, but that raises the question of, why are we even on Mystic Wicks if it's all "false"?.

[Fairy_Princess]

I don't think Christianity is more guilty of "stealing" than other religions, it's just people seem to be more obsessed with what Christians "stole".

Wicca "stole" a lot from Christianity (e.g. from Ceremonial magic, from Freemasonry, etc), some of the Celtic holidays, some of the Norse holidays, etc.

Like Galadraal said, religions adapt, they absorb things from other cultures, that's what happens when religions aren't static.

Also, think of the Roman's, they "stole" loads of gods from people and religions, the Roman Cult of Isis was stolen from the Egyptians, yet apparantly, they added so much to it, it became less Egyptian.

It could be argued the Greeks "stole" lots of things from the Middle East - many gods have their origins there, myths (e.g. the flood myth is actually Sumerian, etc), even the concept of democracy has it's origins in what is now Basra(sp?), etc.

If we say one religion is "false", then that means every religion is false, and that could be true, but that raises the question of, why are we even on Mystic Wicks if it's all "false"?.


I'm adamantly against any organized religion. You don't need dogma to be spiritual.

[RainInanna]

Essentially, I think all religions are based in fiction.

I agree. None of them can be proven true, therefore all are equally as likely to be fiction IMHO. If one wants to pick and choose that's fine, they should at least be able to realize that's what they're doing.


I don't think Christianity is more guilty of "stealing" than other religions, it's just people seem to be more obsessed with what Christians "stole".

Yep, it's just that from where we're standing more people like to point the finger at Christianity.


If we say one religion is "false", then that means every religion is false, and that could be true, but that raises the question of, why are we even on Mystic Wicks if it's all "false"?.

For me, I'm here because spirituality is useful. It doesn't matter to me if any of it is true. Therefore I have no problem with the idea that my beliefs are just as likely to be false as any other.

[Toby Stimpson]

Religion certainly do steal. They always have, they always will. Christianity is just a little heavier handed at it than most. So I most certainly can make the statement I made. I also don't have any problem admitting that all other religions are guilty of the same thing to one degree or another, Christianity as I said is a lot worse at it than others.

From your perspective...

THAT is the operative thing here. From your perspective Christianity seems to have stolen more, but that is only because you grew up in a Christian society. if you grew up ina Buddhist society, or a Hindu society or a Muslim society... you would see exactly the same thing.

But it is not stealing... there is a BIG difference between stealing and adaptation and evolution. Stealing implies that it was'nt theirs to begin with... but anyone knows that people who are converted will of course bring over their traditions instead of let them die off. That is, a population or culture. Traditions and certain beliefs will carry forth with the converted culture because its a. a way to better integrate, b. to share the teachings of the rleigion ina w ay compatible with the masses, and c. a way

Now Im not saying that Church leaders have not adapted full well knowing that the impact of the things they adapt will lead to conversion... ALL religions act that way, but if your talking about the first principles then I'm sorry, in my opinion you are wrong in saying they stole. Stole also suggests some heinous plot... why would Christians steal concepts unless they agreed with them??


I'm adamantly against any organized religion. You don't need dogma to be spiritual.

And I can certainly understand and appreciate that. BUT this is in your opinion. I agree with you, really I do... I think dogma is a very callous and dis empowering thing... but it is necessary for a faith to survive. If all were secular spiritual humanists... then a religion could not survive as a social movement... because of just that, individuals. As religion is one of the few key components of culture, where would we be without the dogmatic part of the religion? it is the dogma that brings people together as a community... BUT, it is the free thinkers, the ones who can look past the dogma who are able to lead the others. Whether or not this is good or bad, I'm not entirely sure. I mean we do have a lot of religious leaders who use dogma to their own ends... some very negatively.

My point is, for some people who may not be able to understand their lives or their places in the world or even understand the more abstract concepts of religion, Dogma is a simplistic way to bring hope to them. Philosophy is a way to shape dogma. But, all of this meaning: whats good for you may not be good for others. One who can understand the diufference between mythology and reality will also be able to appreciate the role Dogma plays. How it is both a dangerous thing if left unchecked, but a very powerful social tool when understood.

I agree and disagree with you Fairy... so lets shake hand son the things we agree on and errrr yeah for the rest.

Namaste

Tobias

[David19]

I'm adamantly against any organized religion. You don't need dogma to be spiritual.

I'm definantly with you there, in fact, most people can be spiritual without any dogma, including member of Abrahamic faiths.

[demonique]

Old post, I know, but I haven't been on here in a while and I'd like to give my opinion anyway.



I started to wonder - if you do not believe in something, does your disbelief necessarily negate its existence?

Does belief in something cause it to exist? For example, I don't believe the sun is purple - and lo, it is not. But if I started to believe that it /was/ purple, would it change for me?

No.

At least, probably not. To some extent, I believe that our reality is comprised of our thoughts and willpower. It's possible to affect the world to some degree. But not to the degree that the sun would turn purple if I believed it. (I'd hope. If it did, I'd go seek a therapist... I hope.) And not, I don't think, to completely unmake something that actually /exists/ just because someone stopped believing it did.


Most Neo-Pagans would hasten to say that, as long as someone believes in it, it exists and that you cannot undermine someone else's personal faith/opinions just because you disagree.

I wouldn't say that just because someone believes in [for example] purple people eaters, they exist. On the other hand, my disbelief doesn't mean they /don't/ exist. Purple people eaters can't be proven. John Doe's beliefs about aliens or unicorns or purple people eaters are not proven by science - but likewise, it's difficult to prove a negative. God, for example, can't be proven to exist. But a great many people believe in him, or her, or in dozens of them, or whatever, nonetheless. Because we also can't prove that he/she/they/it DON'T exist. You can choose to believe it or not. But it's based on faith and your own intuition - not on /fact/. Whether it's /actually/ real or not can't be proven.

What most Neopagans will say is not that "if you believe in them, they exist" but rather "if it works for you, use it". We don't choose to ridicule people about their beliefs, and we allow people to believe in whatever the heck they want, even if we think it's a pile of cow pies.


However, many Neo-Pagans will tell you that they do not believe in the Christian Satan. Does that mean he does not exist? If the existence of Isis is not contingent on my own belief in her, is the existence of Satan? Can things I do not believe in still affect me because other people, elsewhere are pouring their energies into those thoughtforms?

It's my belief, as I said above, that our belief in deities in no way impacts their existence. The existence of Isis is not contingent upon your belief in her - neither is the existence of Satan. One might exist, or the other, or both, or neither - but there is no way to actually /prove/ that any of it is true. You have to decide what you /perceive/ to be truth.

Can things you don't believe in still affect you? Depends on if these things are actually /real/ or not, or how these thoughtforms and energies /actually/ work - which is something we cannot prove, and therefore, can only guess at, and decide what we believe based on what we know.

To some extent, I believe that we can affect our lives with energy and beliefs and thoughts. To a great extent, we can alter our own reality - or rather, the way we /perceive/ reality. I don't believe we can imagine the sun into a ball of ice, but I believe we can certainly imagine ourselves sick.

I don't claim to know how far reaching this energy and willpower is. Plenty of people on these forms will attest to being able to cause changes in other people's lives, in other people's minds and health and whatnot. I have never done so. Most would say that magic like this will work whether or not the target believes it'll work or not - especially if done without the target's knowledge.

My grandparents didn't believe that cigarette smoking could ever cause any harm - but both were forced to quit and ended up on oxygen with a myriad of health problems, despite their nonbelief. If something is true, if it's /reality/, if it's fact (even an unknown, unprovable fact - about the existence of karma, the gods, magic, whatever), then our beliefs about it have no impact on it whatsoever.

- I apologize for any lack of coherency. It's late, and I haven't had my tea.

[vortigous]

I guess i'd just say that if you believe in something it can affect you directly, but if you don't it can only do so through other people. So if you don't belive in Satan you should have no fear of his hell and so slightly less terror at the prospect of eternity. However if someone else believes in satan they cut stab you to death in a blood crazed madness, i know its a naff metaphor but i think it gets what i 'm trying to say.

[coeur]

As a chaos magician, I am tempted to say, "if you don't believe in it, then it doesn't exist for you; thus, it has no meaning...for you." But then, I must agree that for something to exist, it has to have meaning...which is a difficult statement to argue. That is like arguing "something exists, because we need it to exist." Does the ozone exist because we needed something to keep the UV rays out or does it exist due to chemical reasons unique to Earth? If we all became immune to UV damage, would the ozone just...disappear?

So I am going to modify my statement and say, "if you have made a rational decision that you do not believe in a certain belief, then it does not have any meaning or application to your life regardless of whether or not it exists." In other words, saying 'this does not apply to my circumstances' instead of saying 'this does not apply to all circumstances.' I do agree that reality does exist on some base level, but not everything in 'reality' effects us. The intensity of star such and such does not immediately effect us, for example. If you have decided that Thor effects your life more than Zeus, then that probably means that Thor is more applicable to you and thus of more use to you as a person. As a chaos magician, I am much less interested in 'Truth' than practicality. If you choose to believe in what has the most applicability in your life; thus, you choose to give power to that belief, and that belief has a greater effect on your life.

[Dream Orphan]

Well, if you go along with the theory of parallel creativity, anything you could ever possibly think of already exists somewhere. This is also assuming that you believe in alternate dimensions or life outside of earth--or the happy combination of the two.

For example, let's say you think of the purple people eaters ravaging Tokyo with giant neon swords with hilts made of cheese. Well, on some plane of existance, this is either already happening, already happened, or going to happen at some point in the future. Or, again, a combination of the three.

So, in accordance to that, if anyone anywhere even remotely believes in something, then that fact is true...on some plane(s) of existance, anyway, whether or not it be our own.