Questions for Theists

[Jolixte]

Something happened to a friend of mine recently, and it got me thinking. This is what I came up with. I don't know what has been asked before, so just answer what you want, if you want. :)

When life is horrible, why is it that some people turn to god(s) and some away from them?

What kind of god allows its creation to suffer greatly?

Do they even care about things like that?

Is suffering simply a test?
If so, what kind of god would test its creation like that?

What can worshipping a god really do for a person?

Why do you worship/work with god(s)?

Would the person that has suffered, have gone through the same thing, if they had been a faithful worshipper?

How much control does a god really have over an individual’s life?

Do they determine the occurrences in a person’s life?

Can they control/prevent mental illness? Terminal illness?
If so, why don’t they?
If they do, how do they choose? Why do they choose?

Do you believe in miracles? What are they? Why do they only happen to a limited number of people?

Do god(s) love some of us? All of us?
If so, what sort of love is it?

Why did it/they create humans?

[Theres]

What kind of god allows its creation to suffer greatly?

Do they even care about things like that?

Is suffering simply a test?
If so, what kind of god would test its creation like that?
humans are NOT the entirety of creation, as much as we would like to think so.

occasionally things happen within the universe that are necessary for the for the required balance which the universe is based upon, but sometimes those things are not necessarily in our best interests. so what should the gods do then? protect us and bugger the rest of creation?
that doesn't seem like the best of plans to me, and so we humans may suffer as a consequence.

it's not a test, it's just the way of things.

[Arion]

humans are NOT the entirety of creation, as much as we would like to think so.

occasionally things happen within the universe that are necessary for the for the required balance which the universe is based upon, but sometimes those things are not necessarily in our best interests. so what should the gods do then? protect us and bugger the rest of creation?
that doesn't seem like the best of plans to me, and so we humans may suffer as a consequence.

it's not a test, it's just the way of things.

_handclapp

[Jolixte]

humans are NOT the entirety of creation, as much as we would like to think so.

occasionally things happen within the universe that are necessary for the for the required balance which the universe is based upon, but sometimes those things are not necessarily in our best interests. so what should the gods do then? protect us and bugger the rest of creation?
that doesn't seem like the best of plans to me, and so we humans may suffer as a consequence.

it's not a test, it's just the way of things.
So, you worship them because they exist? Because they keep things in balance?

If everyone you loved was murdered, would you accept it as simply the balance of the universe?

[Toby Stimpson]

You certainly ask a lot of good, interesting questions. I certainly hope I can answer them from my experience :). i certainly hope your friend is ok!!



When life is horrible, why is it that some people turn to god(s) and some away from them?

This is a good question. I suppose some people turn to God in the hope of help, support, or just simply because they can turn to God. if they have no one else, who else do you turn to? People I suppose turn away from God out of anger. BUT I also believe that through suffering, they realize they do not need God in that instance to give to support... that they themselves are strong enough or are learning the lesson in that instance without having to resort to God.



What kind of god allows its creation to suffer greatly?

Suffering is a lesson, BUT it's our perceptions of what make us suffer that is important. Suffering in my religion isn't the pain one feels, but it's the initial want or the initial desire. The pain that comes after is the reaction, when what we want is not what we get. When it comes to large life things... theres always a lesson. When it comes to things like natural disasters, murder, the affects of murder on family, suicide... all of those things are not controlled by God. Suffering creates growth... the growth comes from the need or want not to suffer. Just as any Parent, or person in authority... what God can truthfully and honestly stand in the way of learning a lesson? I ask the question, What God DOESN'T allow it's creations to suffer a bit?



Do they even care about things like that?

When it comes to God, you cannot place Human emotions onto them/Him/Her... mainly because they are said to be ona Higher plane... emotions mean nothing, but also human standards mean nothing. Partlky becasue Human suffering comes from natural occurances that are controlled in nature... if God is the creator of all things, then why should he make exceptions? In my own religion, even though God is said to have dominion over the world...



Is suffering simply a test?
If so, what kind of god would test its creation like that?




What can worshipping a god really do for a person?

Well, first you have to define worship. there are three types of worship Ive seen: cultural worship, personal worship, and 'worship.'
Cultural worship is where you've been raised in a culture where it is just a part of life to go and pay respects at the temple/mosque/synagogue/church w/e. whether or not it means anything to you doesnt matter, it's part of your culture so you do it becasue everyone else does it. its like celebrating christmas, everyone seems to do it even though they may not be Christian... they go through the same rituals of buying presents and what not becasue everyone else does it.

Personal worship is where you so strongly believe in the importance of the religious institution... ie, paying proper respects at the proper time... doing the rituals, lighting the candles... but the real meaning of the religion is lost t you in some way. the religious doctrine and the religious ritual is more important to you. This usually brings about a feeling of hope, or a feeling of salvation... or merely it is there as a simplistic way of dealing with your life. Also or some people, it is there as a fall back, as a hope. Examples might be people who believe strongly in mythology and the stories of the saints because it makes them feel closer to their God... because either their lives arent that good (refugees, the poor, disenfranchised people, perhaps even those in jail).

'Worship' to me is someone who studies their chosen religion or religions and makes choices based on the theology, the teachings, the mythology... but is able to put things into perspective. Athiests would fall under this category because the, for the most part, have looked into and explored the questions and finding no answers for them come out feeling that affiliation or belief in a God is useless, and not necessary for them to live their lives. This would also include people who are more spiritual, who are able to with non affiliation take teachings and put them into their lives to work for the better. This is why I put " " around worship, because they don't worship just becasue everyone is doing it, or because they believe they're not doing Gods will if they don't... they worship or not worship becasue they make the conscious choice to.



Why do you worship/work with god(s)?

I would say look at all my posts on mysticwicks... from my very first couple of posts to the ones I make now 3 years ago... and you'll see why. But, I am not stagnant...ive evolved over the past three years and I can say it is in part due to my God.



Would the person that has suffered, have gone through the same thing, if they had been a faithful worshipper?

I dont think it really matters. A God can be there as a support for the pain... or if people do not need it then no. I dont think a devout worshipper will have any less of pain and suffering than anyone else. The GOD in my universe is there for people to go to as a resort... to be a shoulder to cry on so to speak... but I dont think they have that much impact on natural occurances... because again, why should they? What good will it do? Wont it just prove that Humans are babies really?



How much control does a god really have over an individual’s life?

See below:



Do they determine the occurrences in a person’s life?

They can show things, they can send and create certain things...but not so much as to create a complete change or to make a BIG impact. if you look at any scriptural precident... Humans had a very large role in the changes the God made in their life. I mean some mythologies and Pantheons were so imbued with tales of the gods always going in and ut of peoples lives and messing with affairs... but its important here to then look and make the differential choice between reality of these myths and the metaphors. In my own religion and my own experience... my Gods have set up small obstacles in my life in order for me to grow. Whether or not that I chose to take those opportunities or look and reflect on those experience and learn from my mistakes or my triumphs... was up to me. My gods were merely there as a guidepost to allow me and give me a way to think for myself. Shiva's number one lesson I have found is "know yourself inside and out, but also be aware all the time of changes..." this is becasue these changes affect my life and what choices I make, whether they are good or bad.



Do you believe in miracles? What are they? Why do they only happen to a limited number of people?

No I dont believe in Miracles. I mean I think I look at miracles and see nothing but the power of mind over matter... witchcraft and magic in a sense. You look at all these faith programs, claiming to have healed people of arthritis and what not... No, I don't see it that way. I see it more as, again, mind over matter... a mind so imbued with belief in it's self that it changes reality around it. BUT, do these healings really last that long?

I think if these healings do happen, the question is, what is so special about these people. I would look at their minds... and I would wonder how powerful they are. Or how powerful their emotions are. BUT, that being said, not even the most powerful mind can stop an earthquake, and I would tend to see small examples of people 'being saved' as nothing more than complete chance.



Do god(s) love some of us? All of us?
If so, what sort of love is it?

Love... again, one of those Human emotions and standards I dont necessarily think we should place on Gods. Even though Gods may be manifestations of our culture, and we may be manifestationbs of them... what defines a God froma human is that they are just that... more complex than a Human. When the Buddha (who is not God at all) states that he has compassion for Humanity...it means he has compassion for all beings, but becasue of his dis attachment to the world he will not stop the hurricane from destroying the village because the hurricane is a part of nature and a part of the non reality. When Jesus Christ loves you... my idea is that he has compassion for you... and that compassion is partly to allow you to undergo things that will give you experience in the world. if a Mother loves her child, if she protects that child from everything... then shes actually doing harm because that child is unable to go out on their own. THAT is what love means to me when I think of a God. But you also have to think of it this way... in most mythologies... Immortality of the spirit is included... so a God may love you, but to him what is death but the gateway to life or to an afterlife??



Why did it/they create humans?

Did they create Humans though? Thats a better question. I believe Gods didn't create us, but are at the point where they can teach us, depending upon which group you honour. With my own Gods, the Gods are there as examples of a right course to liberation... and Liberation in the Hindu and Buddhist sense is to lose this sense of "I" and "Self" and effectivly elevate from being Human. Humanity is in it's self a source of great evil and great goodness, but true happiness in both religions scriptures says that reality in it's self is nothing but illusion, and that suffering comes from the want to become involved in that illusion. So all beings suffer... the Gods are there as a Guidepost. As to where Humans came from... well, thats another question and debate entirely.

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I hope that answers your question. Now that all being said, do you want to talk about what happened to your friend?? It seems like you have a big struggle in you.

Namaste

Tobias

[Toby Stimpson]

So, you worship them because they exist? Because they keep things in balance?

If everyone you loved was murdered, would you accept it as simply the balance of the universe?

I would look at it this way... there are people in this world who can change the lives of others... but do they? No. Are they selfish? No.... they're just simply not there. Why should the burden fall on a God, when we Humans have the ability to stop murder or anything from happening to begin with? Murder is regrettable... but look back in history... is there fault somewhere else... or is there fault in the individual Human who murdered those other people?

[Jolixte]

Now that all being said, do you want to talk about what happened to your friend?? It seems like you have a big struggle in you.


Thank you for your responses. My friend's experiences are much the same as my own. He just made me think of my reactions to my own experiences. The struggle isn't anything new; I'm just curious as to what people think. I don't expect to change my mind based on what I read, but I am open to people's thoughts just the same. :)

[Toby Stimpson]

Thank you for your responses. My friend's experiences are much the same as my own. He just made me think of my reactions to my own experiences. The struggle isn't anything new; I'm just curious as to what people think. I don't expect to change my mind based on what I read, but I am open to people's thoughts just the same. :)

Its tough... but either way personally I think anyone is ok without God, or with God... they re just two camps that have the same direction, bettering ourselves and our lives. Questions, especially from those who don't share beliefs are great becasue they challenge and force people to evaluate what they believe... if something doesn't make sense to me, and I claim to believe it...why do I believe it? It should be chucked out the door. But it also comes down to perceptions as well, everyone has different perceptions of the same thing, and each one is half right because they are still perceiving the same thing. Its definitely good to have questions, all the time... you'll be ok I think _pounce_

[Arion]

When life is horrible, why is it that some people turn to god(s) and some away from them?
I guess because we see the gods as having influence over our lives, and hold them responsible for the events that go wrong in our lives. On the other hand, it can be a comfort to place the issue in the hands of a higher power.

What kind of god allows its creation to suffer greatly?
See Theres' post.

Do they even care about things like that?
I don't know. They might, but suffering could also be vital for our growth as individuals and as a community.

Is suffering simply a test?
If so, what kind of god would test its creation like that?
It may be a test, but it might also be a lesson.

In theory, if the gods created happy, good feelings, then they created pain and suffering too. It must have been for a reason, so each feeling has its purpose.

What can worshipping a god really do for a person?
Gain their favour so bad things don't always happen. :lol:
I don't really know, some people just find it fulfilling to honour a higher power.

Why do you worship/work with god(s)?
I just felt drawn to do so, I don't know why. My gut feeling is that they are out there, and it makes me feel good to honour them. It also gives me comfort that higher powers know who i am, and know i'm devoted to them.

Would the person that has suffered, have gone through the same thing, if they had been a faithful worshipper?
Maybe, maybe not. Some things are just impossible for people to understand, and the will of the gods is one of those things. Who knows why they do what they do?

How much control does a god really have over an individual’s life?
I don't know. My guess would be quite a bit.

Do they determine the occurrences in a person’s life?
I think so. Some, at least.

Can they control/prevent mental illness? Terminal illness?
If so, why don’t they?
If they do, how do they choose? Why do they choose?
Another thing we mortals may never understand.

Do you believe in miracles? What are they? Why do they only happen to a limited number of people?
I think I do, although I'm not always sure. I think a miracle is when a god gives a special blessing, that is out of the ordinary. It wouldn't be so miraculous if these special circumstances happened all the time.

Do god(s) love some of us? All of us?
If so, what sort of love is it?
Depends on the god. I think some love certain humans, but we each have a different relationship to the divine, so its subjective. As for the kind of love, it is the strongest, most beautiful and divine love there is. I suppose it can be like a mother and child, but slightly different. I don't know how to explain.

Why did it/they create humans?
I don't know. In hindsight, it doesn't seem like such a good idea, does it? :lol:

Sorry I couldn't answer all your questions properly, but we humans only have limited knowledge of the gods.

[inkywitch]

I think this is a most interesting post.

I've been quite agnostic until recently. I've never, and still don't rely on Deities for anything other than guidance and insight. I've had a lot of suffering in my past and have worked through it mostly on my own, with support from very few people who I let close. I don't see suffering as something abnormal to life. I see it as an experience, one from which you can learn a hell of a lot. Some people experience it more than others, such is life.

I don't really ask Why? very much. I tend to go "This is how it is. What should/can I do about it?" and go from there.

I don't really know if gods care or not. Or if they make me suffer or not. I don't really care, to be honest. I guess thats the Agnostic in me talking.

I honor the Gods for the knowledge they give me. I don't idolize them and do daily devotion and such. I think that is overkill. I thank them when needed, and I do things in return for them doing things for me.

As for control.. I can't say for sure. But my current thoughts are they can have as much power over you as you give them - if they want it. Just like any other spiritual being out there. We have free will, and I don't think that even deity can change that. Though, they may chose to make you life difficult if you don't do what they want... but they can't encroach on our free will at all, imo.


Love... well, I think that Gods are partial to emotion. Or at least they were, and have an understanding of it. Look at the myths. They can be quite human. Quite bitchy, and lustful, and nasty, vindictive, and jealous and kind, and yes, I believe alongside that, they can experience Love. Maybe different to how we do, but who knows to be honest?
I believe the Gods were once mortal, before they became guides and gods.

I agree with Galadraal about the creation question. I think the question should be DID they create humans, or well, life in general.

Personally, I'm a supporter in Darwin's evolution theory and the Big Bang. Even if deities had something to do with the Big Bang happening, I doubt they really controlled and planned out the stages of evolution. I think that just happened.

If you look at most creation myths from different pantheons (now, I haven't read them all, tbh) the Parent of All Gods was born as the Universe, or Planet was created in the stories I've read. So who's to say they even created the Universe/Planet let alone all life and humans upon it.

I certainly don't honor them as my creator. My parents got that job.

[Tabbykitty]

Now I dont know if you are still reading this thread (i'd like to think you are), but I'll answer it anyways.



When life is horrible, why is it that some people turn to god(s) and some away from them?

some people turn to god(s) to rescue them from whatever situation they are in. and some turn away from the same god(s) because they perceive that the god(s) arent able to rescue them from the situation they find themselves in.



What kind of god allows its creation to suffer greatly?

Do they even care about things like that?

Is suffering simply a test?
If so, what kind of god would test its creation like that?

Actually, I am of the view that if there is/are god(s) out there, we are likely not the most important of their creations..... we arent the centre of the universe, and surely they arent obligated to ensure that we have perfect lives without suffering.

From what I observe, a lot of the suffering that we see is created by mankind itself. If there is/are god(s) out there, they would likely be of the view that we have to clean up some of the mess ourselves.......

I used to think that my own problems were (and in my view, they were huge burdens to bear indeed).... out of my hands so to speak.... but in reality, I can choose to take actions to solve them..... or not. I can choose to live in guilt, doubt, fear and suffering...... and complain about all the things I do not have that everyone else around me does....... but I choose not to..... I learned instead to take action .... to see possibilities where there seemingly arent.

Was my suffering a test?...... to many it would seem an awful trial of a truly unlucky person...... however, I dont think it was a test... it was just life. And I do believe that whatever god(s) out there made us so that we all are capable of solving our own problems... IF only we want to take action to.



What can worshipping a god really do for a person?

Why do you worship/work with god(s)?

Most people think that by worshipping a god(s), they can get some kind of benefit (eg. good life, knowledge,power etc.....)

Personally, I have never found any god(s) worthy of my worship..... except one. Im the kind of person who .... doesnt quite subscribe to any of the current named religious beliefs.... why? Well, because I believe that the one who made me isnt named among any of the god(s) that we currently know....

In fact, I question if many of the god(s) are really divine at all. Living where I live, I have seen the spirits of the dead and other entities masquerade as "god(s)" .....

So no, I dont worship any god(s), not even the being I percieve to be my creator. I did ask my creator if he desired worship... the answer was .... no.

But do I work with my creator? Sure. So that I can understand the purpose for which I was created. No matter how...... small that purpose might be. And the truth of the matter is..... as long as I live, fulfilling the purpose for which I was created... I find joy in existance........ but does my suffering cease? No..... I learn to overcome them.



Would the person that has suffered, have gone through the same thing, if they had been a faithful worshipper?

How much control does a god really have over an individual’s life?

I observe that GENERALLY those who are faithful to their "god(s)" have better lives than those who are not, depending on what kind of "god(s)" they worship.

Yes, I think that the "god(s)" are like humans. They tend to favour those who are able to establish closer ties with them...... I mean, it makes sense, why help someone who hates you or doesnt really believe in you????

Of course, being like humans, they also have their own agenda.... and my perception is that as long as the worshipper follows or benefits the deity's agenda, well, the worshipper is blessed in their lives... And yes, I do think some of these entities that pass off as "god(s)" do actually have an effect on our lives.....

As this is the case, it does seem then that worshipping whoever is most powerful.... so to speak..... would allow us to gain the greatest benefit... no?

However, remember what I said before..... I dont think that all the "god(s)" we know of that are named are indeed divine......... Sure, one can indeed worship anything, even a non-divine entity and still gain a benefits from such beings. In my region of the world, there are some who knowingly worship ghosts and other non-divine beings for power......

So why arent i doing the same thing? Well, for the simple reason that none of these "god(s)" know what is best for me, or why I was created. Only the being that truly created me knows. Also, i realise that when I am .... for whatever reason...... no longer of use or no longer within the agenda of some of these "god(s)" they wont hestiate to prevent me from suffering......

Thus it doesnt surprise me when someone says that they are suffering despite being a devoted follower.... or if there are sufferings in the lives of those they love without any reason...... As I said before, IF the "god(s)" that are worshipped by someone isnt that person's creator(s) then, that being has no obligation or personal investment in the life of the one what worships him/her/it/them......


However, is it then possible to find out who created you? I believe that it is possible ..... through much persistance and action on our part to find out who our creator might be. And THAT is the extent of my own faith... the belief that anyone can find that truly divine being who made them and can guide them through whatever suffering or conflict life throws at them without fear, guilt and anger.

[Temwa]

When life is horrible, why is it that some people turn to god(s) and some away from them?
Some people derive strength from divine presence, while others may blame deities for bad events in their lives. It differs from person to person.

What kind of god allows its creation to suffer greatly?
Like others have stated, humanity isn't the entirety of creation. But I see your point - why allow suffering? Here's where my own beliefs come into this: I don't believe my gods are all-powerful. More powerful than I am, certainly, but They cannot erradicate everything bad in the world with a snap of Their fingers. So my answer, from my POV, is that They tolerate it because They can't make it go away instantly. It's up to all of us - gods and humans alike - to battle evil.

Do they even care about things like that?
I'm certain that They care.

Is suffering simply a test?
No, suffering is a neccesity for the time being.

What can worshipping a god really do for a person?
It can bring balance, harmony, peace of mind - and probably plenty of other things.

Why do you worship/work with god(s)?
That's a tough question. Because They called me, and I answered, I suppose.

Would the person that has suffered, have gone through the same thing, if they had been a faithful worshipper?
Yes, I think so. Gods don't have favourites, so it's not like being the "pet worshipper" of So-and-So would save you from everything bad in the world.

How much control does a god really have over an individual’s life?
Influence, certainly, but in the end, we make our own lives, to the best of our abilities.

Do they determine the occurrences in a person’s life?
Some, I'd wager, but certainly not all.

Can they control/prevent mental illness? Terminal illness?
If so, why don’t they?
If they do, how do they choose? Why do they choose?
No, I don't think They do. Maybe it's not in Their power? I can't know that. But I feel no resentment towards my gods because I have 2 chronic illnesses - why should I?

Do you believe in miracles? What are they? Why do they only happen to a limited number of people?
I'm a little doubtful here - what are miracles to you? Instant healing? Raising the dead? To me, miracles are in the small things - finding a penny you need, meeting a wonderful person, getting unexpected opportunities. Things that can happen to ALL of us.

Do god(s) love some of us? All of us?
If so, what sort of love is it?
I believe They love all of us, even if we probably piss Them off sometimes. Their love differs greatly - it depends on Who the deity in question is.

Why did it/they create humans?
Who can say? Maybe They just wanted us for company. ;) Honestly though, I have no idea.

[Vigdisdotter]

Neat list :) I'll give it a go. Of course these are all my own opinions and observations. YMMV.


When life is horrible, why is it that some people turn to god(s) and some away from them?

It's the difference between seeking support and seeking something to blame.


What kind of god allows its creation to suffer greatly?

Oh wow, now there is a loaded question :) First what makes you think it's "allowing" anything? Not all gods are viewed as omni-everything. Some may not know the suffering. Some may not have the power to effect it. Some may not give a rats patooty about it. As for the reasons behind all of those and more, it's extremely individual to the god in question.


Do they even care about things like that?

Depends on the god. And the kind of "suffering."


Is suffering simply a test?

No, but it can be useful to view it as such.


If so, what kind of god would test its creation like that?

Who said only gods could hand out tests?


What can worshipping a god really do for a person?

What can friends really do for a person? Companionship, comfort, understanding, swift kicks in the a** when you need it, belonging.....etc.


Why do you worship/work with god(s)?

Because they are part of my life. Same reason I have the job and hobbies I have. They all contribute something positive and meaningful.


Would the person that has suffered, have gone through the same thing, if they had been a faithful worshipper?

Depends on the suffering. Do I think my mom is terminal because she's an atheist? HELL NO. But there is a lot of spiritual suffering to be had that can be caused by doubting one's faith.


How much control does a god really have over an individual’s life?

As much as we give them. We have free will. We can choose to ignore them and go our own way, though nothing says that way lies happiness. Nothing says following a given god will guarantee happiness, either.


Do they determine the occurrences in a person’s life?

To a limited extent. I'm not a big fan of fate and predestination. I'm far more partial to the concept of Wyrd and Oorlog.


Can they control/prevent mental illness? Terminal illness?
If so, why don’t they?
If they do, how do they choose? Why do they choose?

Can't answer that, I'm not a god :)


Do you believe in miracles? What are they? Why do they only happen to a limited number of people?

Sure. That which is beyond the ordinary; of course what you view as ordinary will colour what you consider miraculous. And no.


Do god(s) love some of us? All of us?
If so, what sort of love is it?

Yes, maybe and depends on the relationship involved.


Why did it/they create humans?

Depends on which mythology you're looking at. I'm fine with "just cuz" myself :)

[Jolixte]

Thanks to everyone that has answered thus far! :D