Oh, the irony

[cheddarsox]

I was on a Catholic religious forum earlier. Someone asked the question how to do Catholic apologetics to pagan types, since we don't believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God, using it to evangelize is pointless.

In one of the responses someone said that they had once talked to a Wiccan and had it explained to them the "magical value of ingesting menstrual blood, I almost vomited"

This is a Catholic, who believes that the bread and wine are turned into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus...they thought that it was ridiculous and disgusting that anyone else believe in any benefit of ingesting blood..


hmmm....

Anyway...the issue of "irony" has come up several times over the past week when discussing faith issues with people of other faiths.

A Catholic told me my beliefs were irrational and confusing...I didn't argue...most religious beliefs are irrational and confusing to an outsider. I just gently invited her to take a look at her own from an outsiders perspective.

The point of practicing a religion or "path" is not to appear wise, rational and acceptable to others. Religion is to transform the participant, not to wow the audience.

Anyway, sometimes the irony is fun...got any stories to share?

cheddar

[Wolf O Volos]

The point of practicing a religion or "path" is not to appear wise, rational and acceptable to others. Religion is to transform the participant, not to wow the audience.



I could point out MANY times I had a laugh while inviting a couple of Jehovas Witness missionaries into my door, and seeing their reaction to my altar/ or the interesting coversations that ensued on both occasions...

But instead, I just wanted to say that I find the statement I quoted to be one of the most sage and wonderful viewpoints on religion I have heard in a while. Thanks for that! ;)

[Nitefalle]

Some irony.....hm. How about my born-again sister telling me that my boyfriend and I live in sin b/c we're not married....and yet, over ten years ago, she had a baby out of wedlock at the age of 17 BUT because that happened before she was "saved", it doesn't count.



PS - I never got the transubstantiation thing. I mean...ew. At least I only meditate with my gods, I don't try and eat them. And this is coming from a former Catholic. I don't think they would take too kindly to it, either, if I tried during ritual some time.

[LadyCelt]

It is tempting to say things like "where do you think your church got that idea from" when dealign with the Goddess and blood. However, it is disrespectful.

It can be hard, but taking the higher road is very important. If not, we end up being the same as the ones who seem mean.

[Windygo]

I have a long post somewhere else all about my friend's Catholic mother. She's currently trolling a local internet forum, having originally asked for advice about her daughter and quickly spiralling into Satanic conspiracy theories that have started making me giggle.

They're usually all like this:
"Dear i know someone who works with kids that have been in wicca, .... This is from a professional... They use alot of drugs and drink, hyptotize the vulnerable child into doing things, like lesbianism and other evil acts... MANY,MANY PROFESSIONAL PEOPLE have dealt with this...Go call a policeman in a larger town and he will tell you that this wicca is evil and alot of immoral illegal stuff is happening.

Yet she's always mailing my roomate holy water, charms, and even gemstones (a very large, very pretty amethyst came in today) that make my mouth water, when she feels uncomfortable for getting all these gifts I have to resist the urge to take them off her hands.

Otherwise, that's been most of my experience with anyone's reaction; tarot cards especially; they consider them to be a genuine Satanic conspiracy.

[Toby Stimpson]

Theres some great stories here... well one recent encounter that had me thinking was about 3 months or so ago:

I had gone to York University in Toronto here for a tour of one of the residence buildings. I ahd met up with one of my friends who was also applying for a Job at this perticular residence building. So she brought along her Mother, a delightful Sri Lankan lady. Now my friend and her entire family are Sunni Muslim.

So I go back to her house and we talk, catch up and her father comes home and we talk and catch up... as I had known them a year earlier in my current residence building at my college. Now at that time her father had called me 'Open Minded" because of my knowledge of islam and some of the current things happening in the Middle East... as well as my knowledge of India and rupees and a little about Sri lanka... anwyayss...

So, her mum and dad and her drive me home and we go up to my room after they had picked up some food for themselves and we went in. Now iw as more embarrased becasue I didnt have my dishes done and my room was a little messy. Now I have a huge bookshelf full of books on religion and spirituality, as well as an alter with Hindu Gods displayed right in the middle of my kitchen... and my room is quite small with a small kistchen bathroom and bedroom. So they kind of half look at it as they pass, and my friend has already seen it and doesnt care.

Well, she sits down, her mum makes comments about where I got my furniture and how much they were :p... and her father asks me what my alter means and what by books mean. So i say that I think all religions have something important to teach (Im not very much one to discuss such things despite 1700 posts on mysticwicks)... and he says basically that Islam teaches that all religions are flawed and although some of these teachers are seen as prophets they're ultimately flawed and that i shouldn't pay attention to them all... and instead pay attention to Islam. he also said "I'm not trying to convert you...but Im telling you the truth." He then offers me several translated copies of the koran... and says "think about what i said!" Now in all fairness i could see that he is a very religious man, and he was respectful... but it definitly made me uncomfortable.

SO to cut the story short, a few days later I was feeling still very weird about the encounter and said to my friend online that although I appreciated her dad's offer...I wouldn't consider becoming a Muslim and she laughed... saying that its no big deal, she didn't expect me to, but that her dad had commented in the car ride home he thought id make a good Muslim :p. It wasn't a huge argument, not by any means... but it was one of those where discussion couldn't happen because there was no frame of reference that I could build with this man... and also the approach he took was very much biased. I learned a lesson that day... never bring the parents of your friends into your tiny bedroom!!!!

I think though what made that incredibly difficult for me was that i do respect my friends father: he's an immigrant who brought his family and partially disabled daughter to Canada to give her a better life, he also has such faith in his community and religion... but also I think the thing is i couldnt read him... and its hard being a much younger guy talking to a fifty year old man about religion when we both have entrenched views.

I'm only glad I didn't have posters of shirtless guys everywhere :p.

Namaste

Tobias

[NefertSatSekhmet]

I work with a lot of Muslims. I think they assume all of us western people are Christians, so it tends to surprise them when I say I'm not. I get a lot of questions and I am quite open about it at work. I have luckily never had any problems and even invited my co-workers to my pagan handfasting last year with good results. They all thought it was beautiful.

Most of the questions tend to come from the people I supervise (I am a team leader in a market research call centre) and one of the interviewers has given me a translation of the Koran. I find it fascinating, but hope they don't try to pressure me to convert. Luckily it hasn't happened yet.

I am going to buy a shalwar kameez to wear to work and see the response I get, I already wear pashmina or embroidered scarves to work and get compliments. I think the asian clothing they wear is beautiful.

[Toby Stimpson]

I work with a lot of Muslims. I think they assume all of us western people are Christians, so it tends to surprise them when I say I'm not. I get a lot of questions and I am quite open about it at work. I have luckily never had any problems and even invited my co-workers to my pagan handfasting last year with good results. They all thought it was beautiful.

Most of the questions tend to come from the people I supervise (I am a team leader in a market research call centre) and one of the interviewers has given me a translation of the Koran. I find it fascinating, but hope they don't try to pressure me to convert. Luckily it hasn't happened yet.

I am going to buy a shalwar kameez to wear to work and see the response I get, I already wear pashmina or embroidered scarves to work and get compliments. I think the asian clothing they wear is beautiful.

Thats pretty cool ! See I dont think it's the fact they were Muslims, it was just the fact of his personality. Let me tell you, the most Pagan eprson I know (very much my mentor in my early years and who introduced me to Hinduism) is Ismaeli. With very strong bonds to his religion and faith... with everything spiritual incorporated. Very open minded guy... so it depends on the individual it really does. Thats cool theyre coming to your wedding though! :)

Mhm the clothing is quite beautiful... like my friend and my mentor are alll westernized, but on special occasions they'll get their sarees out (mhm my mentor wears this beautiful saree when he dresses up for gay Pride)... and I know my friend Nihla has a beautiful Hijab to wear to Mosque.

Namaste

Tobias

[NefertSatSekhmet]

Mhm the clothing is quite beautiful... like my friend and my mentor are alll westernized, but on special occasions they'll get their sarees out (mhm my mentor wears this beautiful saree when he dresses up for gay Pride)... and I know my friend Nihla has a beautiful Hijab to wear to Mosque.

Namaste

Tobias

The town I live in has a very big muslim community and so I think alot of people feel more comfortable in traditional clothes. From what I understand plainer shalwar kameez are everyday wear and the very highly decorated salwar or sarees are for special occasions.

We do have some who choose to wear the niqab so it is sometimes difficult to tell who I am talking to, but I try to get to recognize their eyes. Once you get used to it, its not as hard as I once thought it would be.

I tend to think highly of the interviewers and my co-workers. Nothing much ironic here :hahugh:

[Windsmith]

2 things come to mind:

1) By now I'm sure we've all heard the rant about how people pick and choose Bible verses to justify their hatred - you know, quote the passages from Leviticus that condemn homosexuality and witchcraft but skip the parts about how shrimp and rabbits and shaving are evil. What always gets me is that a lot of people who do that sort of selective reading - your Fred Phelpses and Pat Robertsons - are the same ones who, when less extreme Christians point out New Testament passages where Jesus talked about love and acceptance and forgiveness, will be the first to shout about how a Christian has to embrace all of Christianity - they can't pick and choose just the parts that make them feel good. But apparently they can pick and choose just the parts that make them feel morally superior to the rest of the world.

2) The other faith-related irony I've often noticed is from fellow Pagans. I've lost count of how many times I've heard another Pagan go on about how all deities are real - either as individuals or as facets of the same ultimate Divine, and all religions have truth to them - and then in the next breath insist that Christianity is nothing but a fiction and a sham, and that "real Pagans" don't believe in Satan. Come on, dude - if you're going to say you believe in all deities, then you have to believe in all deities - even the ones you don't like anymore.

[Windygo]

2 things come to mind:

2) The other faith-related irony I've often noticed is from fellow Pagans. I've lost count of how many times I've heard another Pagan go on about how all deities are real - either as individuals or as facets of the same ultimate Divine, and all religions have truth to them - and then in the next breath insist that Christianity is nothing but a fiction and a sham, and that "real Pagans" don't believe in Satan. Come on, dude - if you're going to say you believe in all deities, then you have to believe in all deities - even the ones you don't like anymore.Qft.