Hellenic Reconstructionist organizations

[Fiamma]

I know there are a fair handful of them out there. (Neokoroi, Hellenion and Elaion come immediately to mind, I know of several others.)

Does anyone here belong to any of them? I'd be interested in hearing about them in your own words.

[odd_duck71]

bumping because I would like to know too.

[Twinkle]

I wish I could help. I don't belong to any of them. I'm leery, because I recently ran across an organization that claimed to be Reconstructionist in their practices, yet based their whole religion/organization on UPG .

Upon further research, I found out they were a Wiccan Coven with only a veneer of Hellenic practice. The hierarchy of the organization raised my eyebrow...and there was a claim that they were "reviving the true Ancient Greek religion."

I have heard wonderful things about Hellenion...

[Twinkle]

For the sake of clarity...it should be noted that Neokoroi is not considered a Reconstructionist organization....and this comes from Okinohoe. She has stated that not only is she not a Recon, but that 75% percent of the membership is not Reconstructionist, either.

[YoungSoulRebel]

For the sake of clarity...it should be noted that Neokoroi is not considered a Reconstructionist organization....and this comes from Okinohoe. She has stated that not only is she not a Recon, but that 75% percent of the membership is not Reconstructionist, either.

Well, then it should also be noted, for clarity, of course, that Oinokohoe is no longer at the helm of Neokoroi, and has voluntarily stepped down simply because she no longer feels right in the position, as her practises cannot be defined as wholly HR (and damn the yahoo list archives for being private, cos I can easily find her posts where she details this). She hasn't been at the helm for about three months now.

"Ownership" of the yahoo list has been passed on to somebody else (and no, I can't be arsed to get the name of who, exactly, at the mo), and O isn't even a moderator, anymore. "Ownership" of neokoroi.org has been passed on to Thista, who (last I knew) self-identifies as being "at least somewhat Recon" and has been accused of being "a strict hard-assed Recon" by a few people on the Neokoroi list in particular, though she primarily pays cultus to Artemis. Even He Epistole is being edited by somebody else, I think Laura, and damn my medication-induced lack of clarity, but I can only say with 60% certainty that she self-identifies as Recon.

I don't know how old that figure of "75% of the [Neokoroi] membership is not Reconstructionist" is, but based on the words of members actually active on the e-mail list, I'd say it's closer to 1:1, at the very least, of Recon:Non ratios, with the "Recon" count being slightly higher counting new members joining over the last month.

Yes, it is true that Neokoroi is rather far from a "perfect / strictly Hellenic Recon religious organisation". Personally, I'd consider it more of a Recon-inclusive Hellenic Polytheist social group kind of like how, say, there are Christian groups that attract all kinds of Jesus nuts, and yeah, Jesus may always be a pretty popular discussion topic among said groups, but the group does things like charity car-washes and other stuff that members obviously don't have to be Baptist or Catholic or whatever to participate in. Neokoroi is a little less organised than that, in some respects, but considering that He Epistole is surviving in spite of O passing on editorial duties to another person, is proof that it's very obviously no longer "Oinokohe's group", and is probably better organised than most high school and college/university "Christian student fellowships".

Hellenion is a pretty nice group, but the organisation within the group is lacking in some pretty awesome ways, as is the social aspects on the e-mail lists associated with said group. There are Demos and Proto-demos, but they are few and far-between and most activity within said groups seems confined to the group itself -- I know there a PD in Minnesota, and announcement from them get posted to the Hellenion-MW list, but I only have the vaguest idea of who all is actually involved with that group and how frequently they actually get together. When I joined Hellenion two years ago, the site (at the time) led me to believe that there was still a newsletter in production, but this seems to no longer exist. Despite Hellenion Headquarters and Head Cheese changing over the last two years, literature has only very recently been updated, and I'll have to look again when my head is back on straight, but I don't think it's all been totally updated just yet -- I'm pretty sure Zoe, though, has mentioned that this is in part because she's fixing the CM-influenced Greek and ritual descriptions in a lot of the older pamphlets and what-not, which I totally agree with, because honestly, Ceremonial Magic is very much *not* Reconstructionism, and the only real reasons that it stayed in Hellenion lit for so long, and unquestioned, is because certain people who had a hand at getting that group up off the ground had backgrounds in CM and so while things like salting the earth and such made sense *to them*, there is now reason to believe that the ancient Greeks knew better than to do that (and Zoe has cited her sources on "the ancient Greeks NEVER salted the earth" statements many, many times), and I guess some of the Greek used is just bizarrely wrong and the only justifiable explanation for it is more CM nonsense. Basically, Hellenion can only get better from here, and I really am looking forward to seeing that happen -- if I had anything but good hopes for Hellenion, I would not have put my Hellenion bumper sticker on my guitar case. :-)

Dadoukhoi doesn't really have much going for it. It seems like a promising concept for a group, but it doesn't seem to exist outside of the yahoo group, anymore, with that "Agora" Proboard the yahoo site still boasts being now long-gone (I've checked in two different browsers on both computers) and http://www.dadoukhoi.org being apparently expired (a whois.net look-up suggests that the domain may still be registered, but the service keeping it on-line is obviously expired, as the site doesn't appear to be on-line any longer). Activity on the yahoo list has all but halted, with maybe only a few posts happening on all of one day a month (maximum was five posts total on the day of May 5th, 2008), at best, and most of the *30* total posts to that list since July of '07 (yes, thirty individual posts in nearly a year -- I'm not joking) have been made or prompted by list owner bronto sproximo, the most recent of such activity being little more than talk about himself advancing in martial arts and the following back-patting from other members.

I don't know much of Elaion other than a) their name means "olive oil" (literally, according to my translations) and b) they're Recon, but not mysticism-friendly, and frankly, while I go out of my way to stay "grounded", I have had *way* too many arguably "mystical" experiences to devote time to a group that states, on their website, that this "is not mentally healthy". Other than that, I really like their mission statement and FAQ's, but I simply cannot, in good conscience, affiliate myself with a group that will probably consider me borderline crazy. I don't really need that in my life at this or at any other point.



If one is seeking a religious organisation, I fully recommend Hellenion.

If one doesn't care much for a true *organisation*, but simply wants a loosely organised Hellenic polytheist & Recon social group, Neokoroi is probably the best there is.


OK, I have to go clean some stitches now.

[patch]

The 75% thing is a misinterpretation.
Kate winter said that if she had refused membership to everyone not 100% recon, she would have refused 75% of new applicants.

I'm only a member of neokoroi. I'm not active but I like the place all the same.
I've haven't heard it labelled as recon from anyone in authority anymore, so I'll stay out of that one. As I am trying to do everywhere but simply cannot seem to get away.
I shall bury my head in these generic neopagan forums until that time.

I like it because it is active and the disscussions always make me think, I like the fact that the disscussions are largely recon centred, but the non-recon perspective is always interesting to know too. It favours a particular approach, but its nice to have a healthy mix of people.

I was thinking about getting membership to hellenion, but the website dosen't appear to get updated. Is the place active?
Also, I don't like a large amount of the rituals they have. xD What is natron?

[Kadynas]

As another member of both Neokoroi & Neos Alexandria, I think it's a bit unfair to cast aspersions on it due to some people's dislike of 2 of their notable members. If you're not actually a member, you don't know what goes on there, plain and simple.

Rest assured however that the "Atlantean High Priestess" or those worshipping the gods of D&D are not there. LMAO Anyone who isn't a Recon usually prefaces their post by explaining so. A group is not automatically "non-Recon" because it allows non-Recons to join. Nor does the fact that Timothy Alexander has a big crusade against Sannion and Oinokohe make the group and all its members "New Agers."

Don't get me wrong, I can understand his not wanting Hellenismos or Hellenic Reconstructionism to "mean just anything." However I think he takes it too far when he trys to claim that Recons also get to claim/define the adjective 'Hellenic' as well, which has been in common usuage for ages. I have no problem with him throwing about the term neo-pagan, even if he is using it perjoratively. From a historical standpoint, we are all - Recons and non-Recons alike - "new pagans". But the New Age movement is a different thing entirely, and even back when I called myself a Wiccan, I was most definitely not "New Age."

In his latest missive, he calls in Rush Limbaugh and notes his disdain of liberals. Well sorry, but not every Recon has to be a political conservative. Nor is every liberal some sort of drugged out, love and light, "if it feels good do it" hippie; I'm certainly not. I think it's his use of stereotyping that really bothers me the most, because I have yet to meet the caricatures he's using to paint all of us with.

The other issue is this statement: "A religion is, by definition, a group that shares a common moral code, practices, values, institutions, traditions, rituals, texts, and a core belief." Well aren't we told ad nauseum that Hellenismos is orthopraxy, not orthodoxy? Which I understand to mean right practice, versus right beliefs. Therefore we may all share the same practices and methods of worship, but we are not all required to believe the same things. There is no /one/ Hellenic position on anything. The ancient philosophers did not all agree, and I'm sure not all the ancient Hellenes agreed on every little thing either. Tim levels the accusations against Neokoroi and Neos Alexandria by saying that people are only accepted if they kiss up to their leaders. Yet he blasts away at anyone who is not in lockstep with him on just about any issue; you're not accepted by him if you don't agree with him, so to me this is pot calling kettle black.

One of the things I love about this religion is the reliance on reason. Thing is, two opposing viewpoints can each use logic and reason to make their points. One is not automatically being illogical or irrational because one does not agree with their opponent's opinions. One is not automatically wrong if they don't agree with you. I think that's something Tim needs to keep in mind.

[Theres]

very good points Kadynas, and very good post. thank you for the voice of reason.

[YoungSoulRebel]

The 75% thing is a misinterpretation.
Kate winter said that if she had refused membership to everyone not 100% recon, she would have refused 75% of new applicants.

OK, that I'm recalling as something that she actually said.


I'm only a member of neokoroi. I'm not active but I like the place all the same.
I've haven't heard it labelled as recon from anyone in authority anymore, so I'll stay out of that one. As I am trying to do everywhere but simply cannot seem to get away.
I shall bury my head in these generic neopagan forums until that time.

Yeah, the times I've actually seen active members and the current authoritative personnell refer to it as a "Recon group", I can count on one hand, and when this was said, it was usually before people fully understood the purpose of the group.


I like it because it is active and the disscussions always make me think, I like the fact that the disscussions are largely recon centred, but the non-recon perspective is always interesting to know too. It favours a particular approach, but its nice to have a healthy mix of people.

[nods]

I like Neokoroi because it's Recon-inclusive, but not exclusively Recon. And yeah, a lot of the discussions are Recon centered or even somewhat pro-Recon, but non-Recon perspectives are treated as potentially valid and, for the most part, as simply a non-Recon perspective on X-topic.


I was thinking about getting membership to hellenion, but the website dosen't appear to get updated. Is the place active?
Also, I don't like a large amount of the rituals they have. xD What is natron?

Well, the Hellenion e-mail lists, in general, are less active than Neokoroi. I make the distinction that Neokoroi is more of a social group for Hellenic Polytheists and Hellenic Recons while Hellenion is a Recon organization for a reason. The primary appeal of Neokoroi is the loads of active discussion that's usually pretty well-rounded and generally intelligent enough to get one's gears running and inspire people to revive certain fests or at least write something. He Epistole has been one of the best resources of inspiration for my own Hellenic writing and art. Hellenion, on the other hand, currently has a primary concern with reviving religious ritual and basically promoting and educating the public, or at least the greater Pagan community, about Hellenic Reconstructionism. The most active Hellenion list is Hellenion_Chat, and that's a public list, so you don't have to join Hellenion to join that list and participate in discussion. Of course, Hellenion is having a bit of a transitioning period at the mo, since, as I said, Zoe (last I knew, anyway), is working on updating a lot of the Hellenion literature for the benefit of Hellenion as a Recon group -- it'll remove a lot of the old CM influence from the Hellenion lit, which will essentially affirm its position as a Recon group, and not a general Hellenic Polytheist/Pagan group with Recon tendencies.

And Natron is basically a specific kind of natural salt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natron


The other issue is this statement: "A religion is, by definition, a group that shares a common moral code, practices, values, institutions, traditions, rituals, texts, and a core belief." Well aren't we told ad nauseum that Hellenismos is orthopraxy, not orthodoxy? Which I understand to mean right practice, versus right beliefs. Therefore we may all share the same practices and methods of worship, but we are not all required to believe the same things. There is no /one/ Hellenic position on anything. The ancient philosophers did not all agree, and I'm sure not all the ancient Hellenes agreed on every little thing either.

See, I have issue with the use of the term "orthopraxy" simply because its single definition of "proper practise" implies that it's only practise that is important. "Orthodoxy", on the other hand, is multiply-defined and the primary definitions are "proper belief" and "proper practise" -- one wouldn't say that Orthodox Jews are allowed to eat a bacon cheeseburger and shave their head and chin as long as the "Orthodox Jew" in question believed in the right things, would one? There was no singular authoritative Hellenic position on certain things, ancient or modern, very true, and I've seen it argued pretty well that a lot of the philosophers even disagreed and debated for the joy of debating alone. Still, I eschew the term "orthopraxy" because it's narrow definition just feels... "hollow", I suppose. Like it's *too* narrowly-defined and too able to essentially "allow" for all kinds of goofiness as long as one is "doing it right".

I think saying "there is no authoritative Hellenic belief" is similar to saying "there is no one true way". Saying "there is no one true way" does not logically mean that "all ways are true" — one can devise a hundred ways to go from Seattle to Prince Edward Island, for example, but heading due south and staying on that course will just lead one in circles around the globe, and though one may be starting at Point A, one will never reach their desired Point B. Similarly, there are about a hundred different interpretations of "Hellenic Recon religious belief" bound together with "Hellenic Recon religious practise", but including Obi-Wan Kenobi in one's personal pantheon, for example, is clearly not Hellenic Recon religious belief, no matter how accurately one's practise is.

But I'm just talking to get the MW equivalent of "hearing the sound of my own voice" at the moment and veering the convo off-topic; feel free to not take me seriously all you like. ;-)


One of the things I love about this religion is the reliance on reason. Thing is, two opposing viewpoints can each use logic and reason to make their points. One is not automatically being illogical or irrational because one does not agree with their opponent's opinions. One is not automatically wrong if they don't agree with you. I think that's something Tim needs to keep in mind.

Well, I think that's something that most people, of all religions and philosophies, need to keep in mind. If only to help keep the Internet a more civil place. ;-)

[YoungSoulRebel]

As another member of both Neokoroi & Neos Alexandria, I think it's a bit unfair to cast aspersions on it due to some people's dislike of 2 of their notable members. If you're not actually a member, you don't know what goes on there, plain and simple.

Well, again, just for clarity (LOL!), I'm in Neokoroi, but not NA. I just have no interest in that one, as I have a lot of non-interest in Egypt, and I don't see the point in joining that one when Neokoroi suits my interests just fine.

I have interest in Rome for academic, historical, and literary reasons (though not spiritual) and have considered joining Nova Roma, but I figure if/when I do, I'll focus a lot of my attention on Sodalitas Graeciae, Musarum, and Coquorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum (Greece, Art & Culture, and Food & Drink, for those of you less-than-nerdy).

[patch]

Well, again, just for clarity (LOL!), I'm in Neokoroi, but not NA. I just have no interest in that one, as I have a lot of non-interest in Egypt, and I don't see the point in joining that one when Neokoroi suits my interests just fine.

Haha ditto.
I have zero knowledge of the egyptian pantheon. I can't pronounce their names and I don't even know what Isis is patron of xD

[Twinkle]

1. Tim did not reply here, *I* did.

2. I only went by what Okinhoe wrote, which is on her LiveJournal entry.

3. I didn't say there was anything wrong with Neokoroi...I said it wasn't a Hellenic Reconstructionist Organization.

4. I made no comment about any personal like or dislike of anyone.

5. Please don't read things into my posts that I didn't say. I made no mention at all of Neos Alexandria.

[Kadynas]

See, I have issue with the use of the term "orthopraxy" simply because its single definition of "proper practise" implies that it's only practise that is important. "Orthodoxy", on the other hand, is multiply-defined and the primary definitions are "proper belief" and "proper practise" -- one wouldn't say that Orthodox Jews are allowed to eat a bacon cheeseburger and shave their head and chin as long as the "Orthodox Jew" in question believed in the right things, would one? There was no singular authoritative Hellenic position on certain things, ancient or modern, very true, and I've seen it argued pretty well that a lot of the philosophers even disagreed and debated for the joy of debating alone. Still, I eschew the term "orthopraxy" because it's narrow definition just feels... "hollow", I suppose. Like it's *too* narrowly-defined and too able to essentially "allow" for all kinds of goofiness as long as one is "doing it right".
To me it just means that there is no particular dogma we must all subscribe to, or in a political sense, no one position that every Hellenic must have on any issue... :) Being a Hellenic Recon is not like joining the Catholic church, for instance. I don't have the support the same political party, I don't have to be against birth control or abortion, or gay marriage or what have you. I am allowed to reason those things out for myself.

I was also alluding to TJA's equating liberals with Neopagans/New Agers.

I think saying "there is no authoritative Hellenic belief" is similar to saying "there is no one true way". Saying "there is no one true way" does not logically mean that "all ways are true" — one can devise a hundred ways to go from Seattle to Prince Edward Island, for example, but heading due south and staying on that course will just lead one in circles around the globe, and though one may be starting at Point A, one will never reach their desired Point B. Similarly, there are about a hundred different interpretations of "Hellenic Recon religious belief" bound together with "Hellenic Recon religious practise", but including Obi-Wan Kenobi in one's personal pantheon, for example, is clearly not Hellenic Recon religious belief, no matter how accurately one's practise is.
Oh I get what you're saying... I'm definitely not saying that "anything goes", but rather someone can use logic, reason, historical reseach and even the Delphic maxims, and not come up with the /exact/ same stance with regards to our own personal moral & ethical codes. And IMO our agreement or disagreement in those arenas does not make any of us any more or any less a Hellene.

Well, again, just for clarity (LOL!), I'm in Neokoroi, but not NA. I just have no interest in that one, as I have a lot of non-interest in Egypt, and I don't see the point in joining that one when Neokoroi suits my interests just fine.

I have interest in Rome for academic, historical, and literary reasons (though not spiritual) and have considered joining Nova Roma, but I figure if/when I do, I'll focus a lot of my attention on Sodalitas Graeciae, Musarum, and Coquorum et Cerevisiae Coctorum (Greece, Art & Culture, and Food & Drink, for those of you less-than-nerdy).
*nods* I'm not a syncretist either, I just find that period of history fascinating, the discussions there are quite interesting, plus there's the BA book projects that I want to be a part of. It's almost like an interfaith group for Hellenes, Romans & Eqyptians IMO. LOL

[Kadynas]

1. Tim did not reply here, *I* did.
I know that. :) I wasn't responding directly to you here, but rather addressing the general bad rap Neokoroi & NA have been getting across the web by Tim's recent diatribes across several forums. I've been a member of this particular board for 7 years now, and so this is where I chose to say my piece about what I've seen and read. I consider this board a kind of online home if you will, and so I don't want to allow anything badmouthing two fine groups (that I belong to) to stand unchallenged here.

2. I only went by what Okinhoe wrote, which is on her LiveJournal entry.
I think the distinction that was made was when she said 75% of /new/ members ("those who wanted to join"). Thus that would mean that Neokoroi is not 75% Neo-pagan/New Age (as Tim is trying to portray it) but that a good bit of non-Recons have joined recently.

3. I didn't say there was anything wrong with Neokoroi...I said it wasn't a Hellenic Reconstructionist Organization.
No you didn't. One reason you still have my respect and Tim does not. :) Thus far I have not seen /you/ smearing everyone within these two groups with the same wide brush as he has been doing. He's even calling actual Recons New Agers now, from all appearances because they deign to question him. *sigh* The more I read of his rants, the more I see the attitude he takes to anyone who doesn't agree with him, and the more it disturbs me.

Take for example this recent response to someone who said: "One of the things that can hold our community back is the continual debate over finer points when what I believe we actually need to do is get off the internet and to start doing things " and someone seconded that notion.

TJA: "Ah yes, the cry of every New Age Neopagan group claiming to be Hellenismos. "We are doing *something* so that makes us Hellenismos more than you." It does not change who they are. Are you asserting that a Wiccan coven, that makes use of the names of Greek Gods, is Hellenismos if they perform public rituals and *maybe* adds a libation to their script?"

His response was really out in left field, because he was debating Recons for one, and two, who the heck is actually saying/doing this?! Noone in the list he was posting on, and no one in Neokoroi or NA from anything I've read there! IMO he's using straw man arguments and then smearing the rest of us with a wide brush of stereotyping. It's unfair and quite simply inaccurate. If I actually saw someone claiming this kind of stuff somewhere, I might see his point, but I haven't even seen the like of it from the two usual targets of his attacks, let alone anyone else in those groups.

Regardless though of whether Neokoroi (or NA) is an actual Recon organization, there are a lot of Recons there. And from personal experience, I can tell you that some Neopagans on the verge of going Recon will join groups with a lot of Recons before making the switch. I lurked on forums for almost a year before I decided Recon was right for me. And I see nothing wrong with mostly-Recon groups opening themselves up to people who may want to explore Recon topics. Also I am a Recon and I belong to those two groups, and that membership does not somehow make me "less Recon", another disturbing implication I'm seeing.

I'll probably be told I'm reading too much into what he's writing, or that I'm simply "not paying attention", but I doubt I'm the only one getting the same message from his diatribes. And that being the case, maybe the problem is more with how he's presenting his ideas, than with my interpretation of them.

4. I made no comment about any personal like or dislike of anyone.

5. Please don't read things into my posts that I didn't say. I made no mention at all of Neos Alexandria.
I know... again, my own post was simply reactionary to the things I've seen going around the web the past few weeks, not specifically to your comments. :)

[Twinkle]

Kadynas -

I think that taking Tim's quote out of context and then not even linking to his original post is not good form. Please quote and link.

Further, I fail to see how talk about Tim when he is not taking part in this thread, quoting him out of context, not linking, and then attempting to character assassinate him has anything at all to do with the topic....which was titled "Hellenic Reconstructionist Organizations"

The thing of it is, we all agree that Neokoroi is *not* a Reconstructionist organization...and that's the only thing we've talked about in this thread until you decided to derail it by launching an unsubstantiated attack against Tim.

Why is my post stating that Neokoroi is not Reconstructionist moved to this, when we all agree?

Could it be that there are some that want the validation and veneer of Hellenismos to promote their sites, but then get angry when questioned and challenged?

[Xentor]

Moderator mode

Twinkle, Kadynas, please keep the discussion civil and respectful, and keep off-site problems off-site.

Thank you.

[YoungSoulRebel]

To me it just means that there is no particular dogma we must all subscribe to, or in a political sense, no one position that every Hellenic must have on any issue... :) Being a Hellenic Recon is not like joining the Catholic church, for instance. I don't have the support the same political party, I don't have to be against birth control or abortion, or gay marriage or what have you. I am allowed to reason those things out for myself.


I can see that. As has been pointed out by many before me (and I'm sure many more after), there wasn't really one set of authoritative "Hellenic" stances on much of any of the political issues of the ancient day. Opinions differed, even among the educated elite, and often very wildly so.



Oh I get what you're saying... I'm definitely not saying that "anything goes", but rather someone can use logic, reason, historical reseach and even the Delphic maxims, and not come up with the /exact/ same stance with regards to our own personal moral & ethical codes. And IMO our agreement or disagreement in those arenas does not make any of us any more or any less a Hellene.


Totally agreed there. Logic isn't merely a two-way street, it's a two way street with bike lanes and foot-paths and cable-cars as well that all follow along the same mile of land and in different directions and to ultimately different destinations. It's like that argument with the Feri person's brand of fringe-logic on this same sub-forum some months ago, and I was explaining it saying that "no experience, no matter how similarly reproduced by two different people, is ever 100% guaranteed to be 'the same'". We both may be travelling North on Washtenaw Avenue, but if you're on a bicycle and I'm on a Vespa, and the bike trail swerves directly into the Lutheran church parking lot a mile after the point where we both started, obviously we ended up in different destinations despite taking the same stretch of road in the same direction.

Logic is fluid, even when it's the same method of logic, and even the ancient Hellenes knew this.



*nods* I'm not a syncretist either, I just find that period of history fascinating, the discussions there are quite interesting, plus there's the BA book projects that I want to be a part of. It's almost like an interfaith group for Hellenes, Romans & Eqyptians IMO. LOL

Meh. I kind of got my fill of Egyptian history in third grade. Got nothing against it, it's just not my bag, these days. While the BA projects seem interesting, I see no need to get involved with it since a) I mostly write fiction and b) as I'm technically "self-published" myself, I don't see the point in "publishing labels" that are basically using the same kind of print-on-demand services that are available to myself. I don't write much in the way of Hellenic devotional material of some sort or another, but when I do, it's probably going to be a collection of my re-told mythos, at least the first one, and I'm thinking of making that a project with a friend of mine who's an illustrator.

[Twinkle]

While there is no set theology, there certainly is some things that are Recon, and some things that are not. While it's great to compare and contrast, there is still a delineation. I'm not saying that one is better than another, only that they are different.

Which brings me back to the point of this thread. Neokoroi, while inclusive of Recons and Neopagans and Hellenic Polytheists, is *not* a Reconstructionist organization.

[Fiamma]

Geez. Sorry I ever posted this thread. I didn't know all that much about Neokoroi at the time, clearly I didn't understand its level of reconstruction or not. I was young, I didn't know what I was doing, I acted alone. Now the thread's become another piece in the Great Hellenic Recon Debacle of 2008.

[Twinkle]

Not really, Fiamma. All I did was post a clarification. It's only a debacle if people want it to be.

I'm not interested in doing that. All I want to do is make it clear what is and is not a Hellenic Reconstructionist organization.

[Fiamma]

Not really, Fiamma. All I did was post a clarification. It's only a debacle if people want it to be.

I'm not interested in doing that. All I want to do is make it clear what is and is not a Hellenic Reconstructionist organization.

Clearly someone wants it to be, because that's what it's been for months now.

[Twinkle]

I'm not really sure why people keep trying to make a simple post about Neokoroi not being a Recon organization into some sort of conspiracy.

It's not relevant to any discussion on this thread, and I am not willing to engage in something that has already been moderated....I believe I was told along with Kadynas to keep offsite problems offsite.

Whatever personal beefs you have with *someone*, it would probably be best if you took it to a forum where the actual disagreement is taking place, rather than airing your grievances and further derailing *this* thread.

Of course, you are always free to do what you wish.

[Fiamma]

Whatever personal beefs you have with *someone*, it would probably be best if you took it to a forum where the actual disagreement is taking place, rather than airing your grievances and further derailing *this* thread.

*checks previous post*

I was not addressing you specifically, there was no obligation for you to respond to me if you don't wish to engage. I was commenting on the thread at large.

I meant "someone" in general, and was speaking about the rather widespread, at times hostile, dissension amongst many Hellenics of varying flavors in recent times, which includes this and a few other threads on this forum. There is no one thread or one forum where it's taking place.

I've said my piece, and I don't need you to tell me where and how to comment.

(For the record, if a moment of moderation is impending, I'm done with this line.)

[Twinkle]

You quoted me, and responded *to my post addressed to you* so no, you weren't responding to "the thread at large."

*shrugs*

I'm sorry you didn't like my response.

[Fiamma]

You quoted me, and responded *to my post addressed to you* so no, you weren't responding to "the thread at large."

*shrugs*

I'm sorry you didn't like my response.

Strictly for clarification: by "previous post", I meant #19, which quoted no one. for that mix-up, I apologize.

[Twinkle]

Well, for clarification...we both agree that Neokoroi is not a Recon Organization.

So...no worries.:weirdsmil:weirdsmil:weirdsmil

[Kadynas]

My only point in all of this is that regardless of whether Neokoroi is 100% Recon or not (or NA for that matter), there's no reason any Recons or the Recon-curious should be dissuaded from joining them.

Not being "100% Recon" does not automatically make either group "neopagan" or "New Age" or anything other terms that have been used as an insult in their direction; nor does it automatically mean all its members are "neopagan" or "New Age", or that they're somehow not being an "authentic" Recon or "Recon enough" if they do not shut out the non-Recons.

If we want real "truth in advertising", then the above statement should be disclaimered to any criticisms of these groups. ;)

[Twinkle]

Hi Kadynas :)

My only point in all of this is that groups should honestly represent themselves, and people should truthfully know what they are getting involved with. If Neokoroi intentionally gives off an aura of being Reconstructionist to attract members, then it is deceit. If Neokoroi is only an interfaith group then that is what it is. If Neokoroi's goal is not actual Reconstruction, but to is create a nondenominational association of individuals that are in some way interested in the Greek Gods, then they are not Recon. It is not about being "Recon enough". It is about being Recon... period.

[*~Amora~*]

If one is seeking a religious organisation, I fully recommend Hellenion.

I applied for membership and sent in the fee this last spring (including having my application notarized with my ID), but even after sending a query to Epistates@Hellenion.org after the six weeks, I've received no response at all. Do you have any advice about who to contact?

I realize this is a long-shot, but I'd really like to join the group.

[YoungSoulRebel]

I applied for membership and sent in the fee this last spring (including having my application notarized with my ID), but even after sending a query to Epistates@Hellenion.org after the six weeks, I've received no response at all. Do you have any advice about who to contact?

I realize this is a long-shot, but I'd really like to join the group.
Hrmm... I really don't know what to say to that.

I'll send you a private message with the personal e-mail of the woman in charge now (Hellenion Epistates changes every couple of years by vote); just make sure to make your subject-line clear that this is a Hellenion membership question.

[*~Amora~*]

Thank you so much, it looks like the issue is getting cleared up! :smile: