Rede, your interpitation for yourself?

[Shanti]

I am curious. I'm not Wiccan nor follow the rede nor believe in Karma.
I just believe in living my life the way that feels best for me.

But the rede, Do what you must but harm none.
How literally do you take that part?

Will you hurt to defend?
Will you hurt to prevent?

I personally will hurt anyone I feel is a threat to me or those I care for, including my critters.

Example: Some woman climbed our fence, even though its has barbed wire across the top, and trespassed onto our property. She even hopped the fence where one of the 'keep out, private property' signs are!!
She was around 20 something.
She went to our mini horse who is only 29 inches tall cause he is still a baby. She stood over him in the position to sit and my 6 yr old son stopped her by yelling at her. She said she wanted to ride him, which she would of hurt him bad if she did and my son yelled for me. By the time I got down to the field, she hopped the fence and was in her car pulling away. I yelled at her and threw a Shite fit!
If I would of gotten down to that field sooner I would of whacked her with a big stick. You don't go near my animals let alone try to sit on a baby horse the size of a dog!! I am not loosing an animal because of some stupid grown adult that thinks they can break the law on a whim!!

Instead I had to be happy with yelling at her as she drove off.

[Lunacie]

Yikes!

What looks like common sense to you or me may not seem so obvious to someone else. Still, having the signs there should have made it plain that she shouldn't come on to your property to do anything.

Too bad you didn't have time to take a photo of her jumping back over the fence and a photo of the license plate on her car to turn over to the sheriff's office.

As far as the Wiccan Rede, too many people have gotten the idea that it's only two words... "harm none". There are actually 8 words in the rede and what they tell us is that actions that don't do any harm are acceptable. Which is a backhanded way of saying, be thoughtful and considerate in what you DO because it may not be acceptable.

Common sense tells me that there is no way I can ever live my life without hurting someone - somehow - some time - some way. But I should think very carefully before I do something with the intention to hurt someone else. I may come to the decision that my actions are justified because they will prevent a greater harm, or because they will protect me or my family... or my pets who are my family as well.



And that's basically what Gerald Gardner wrote about the ethics of Witches (Wica) back in 1959 in his book The Meaning of Witchcraft.



[Witches] are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol, "Do what you like so long as you harm no one". But they believe a certain law to be important, "You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm.
... in other words - to reduce, prevent, or suppress some harm from being done.

[Silverfangs]

(...)Common sense tells me that there is no way I can ever live my life without hurting someone - somehow - some time - some way. But I should think very carefully before I do something with the intention to hurt someone else. I may come to the decision that my actions are justified because they will prevent a greater harm, or because they will protect me or my family... or my pets who are my family as well. (...)

I agree. Not considering myself a Wiccan, I don't look at the Rede as something to be taking in a literal form. I mean... it is impossible to "harm none", even if your action is minimal it will have echoes that you don't know what would be. If you "gain" something, then somewhere, someone will "lose" something. It's a matter of balance. Imagine I go to a shop and buy the only book about Wicca the store has. I run home happy because it's another one for my collection. Now imagine another person will go to the store and wanted that book, in a way that was much more important for her than for me (imagine she is running through a spiritual crisis) . My harmless action of buying the book interrupted the possible happiness of another person getting it, and maybe change her life.

I don't know if I'm making myself clear here (I'm kinda sleepy as you can see in my mood). What I'm trying to say is, for me, the Wiccan Rede is more about "Intention", as Lunacie said before. It adverts to the wrong of doing things with the purpose of harming others.
Don't know how I would react in an extreme situation where I needed to protect the ones I loved (humans or animals). Depending on the situation I would act in different ways, but I would not stand still just to not "harm none" if someone was attacking me or my friends, family, whatever, in the first place.


Hope my response is not to much confusing :P

Peace!

[Fairy_Princess]

I live by: An when ye harm therefore don't ye get caught!

[Nox_Mortus]

my belief regarding the rede is that you should in general make an effort to not harm people unless it's absolutely necessary, and necessity should be deeply meditated on before action is taken (this isn't required if you, your loved ones or innocent passerby are under attack of course)

[Lunacie]

I agree. Not considering myself a Wiccan, I don't look at the Rede as something to be taking in a literal form. I mean... it is impossible to "harm none", even if your action is minimal it will have echoes that you don't know what would be. If you "gain" something, then somewhere, someone will "lose" something. It's a matter of balance. Imagine I go to a shop and buy the only book about Wicca the store has. I run home happy because it's another one for my collection. Now imagine another person will go to the store and wanted that book, in a way that was much more important for her than for me (imagine she is running through a spiritual crisis) . My harmless action of buying the book interrupted the possible happiness of another person getting it, and maybe change her life.

I don't know if I'm making myself clear here (I'm kinda sleepy as you can see in my mood). What I'm trying to say is, for me, the Wiccan Rede is more about "Intention", as Lunacie said before. It adverts to the wrong of doing things with the purpose of harming others.
Don't know how I would react in an extreme situation where I needed to protect the ones I loved (humans or animals). Depending on the situation I would act in different ways, but I would not stand still just to not "harm none" if someone was attacking me or my friends, family, whatever, in the first place.


Hope my response is not to much confusing :P

Peace!

To add to the confusion :lol: Your buying the book would result in income for the shop owner, giving him/her the chance to buy more stock to offer to even more people, hopefully benefitting each of them.

Then turn this upside down and take a look. Even if it looks like what you're planning to do will most likely cause some harm to someone, in the long run it may teach them a valuable lesson that will benefit them even more in the future than if you had decided not to do anything at all.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I've heard the case that hurt is different than harm... performing surgery is causing hurt, but very hopefully not causing harm. "Tough love" is not harm, though it hurts. I think it's generally better to hurt someone if you're preventing greater harm to a person. Like.... rejecting a suitor rather than stringing them along... ^_^

Personally, I think the Rede is ethical advice. It suggests that we should take consideration and responsibility for all our actions, and not do anything lightly. Because even breathing causes harm to something. I think it's about being conscious of living in a world with other people, other beings, and being aware of our impact, of the impact even our smallest actions have on the world around us.

That said, if you think that an action is worth it and are willing to accept responsibility for it and have considered it carefully, then you have to do what is necessary.

Would I harm someone to defend myself or my loved ones? Absolutely. Would I harm to prevent (what I perceive to be) a greater harm? Yes. A person's got to do what a person's got to do.

Will I take responsibility for my actions which have harmed? Yes. For example, if someone was abusing my brother, I'd put a stop to it, however I could... if that involved putting that person in the hospital, I'd do it. I'd also accept the legal and social consequences of that action. I did it, so I should reap the consequences.

I think the Rede speaks against any shrugging off of responsibility... one cannot do something and then say "well, I was acting as an agent of karma, so it's not my fault"... agent of karma or no, you did it, so you have to take the consequences. Too bad. I hope it was worth it. ^_^

That's my interpretation. ^_^

[Silverfangs]

To add to the confusion :lol: Your buying the book would result in income for the shop owner, giving him/her the chance to buy more stock to offer to even more people, hopefully benefitting each of them.

Then turn this upside down and take a look. Even if it looks like what you're planning to do will most likely cause some harm to someone, in the long run it may teach them a valuable lesson that will benefit them even more in the future than if you had decided not to do anything at all.

confusing... yet totally correct ;) hehe

[ffetcher]

I'm not really mainstream Wiccan any more, but I was for a long time. The thread's been interesting and I'll start by re-posting a link to my article on the topic, which was picked up and reprinted in Pagan Dawn a couple of years ago.

http://www.ravenfamily.org/ffetch/comments/3fold.php

Let me start by saying that I think the 'three-fold law' is a good plot device for occult thrillers but isn't particularly useful in interpreting 'An it harm none'.

And I don't really follow the rede in its 'eight words' either. It's pretty hard to get through a day and 'harming none' - the electricity that powers this screen and computer is being generated somewhere else and probably CO2 is being pumped into the atmosphere. I can catch a bus into town rather than having someone drive me, but it's still harming various people in the long run. What I can do is be 'mindful' of what I'm doing and try to reduce the overall harm as far as possible.

In the case of the 'only pagan book', I'd buy it. If a particular type of book sells from a bookshop, the owners /buyers tend to buy more, meaning that more get printed, and so on. There's no guarantee that someone who could really have benefited will be there before they order new stock, but there is a pretty good guarantee that if it's on the shelves until they remainder it, that'll be that for the pagan stock. On balance, my own feeling would be that the lower level of damage would be buying the book rather than not. YMMV.

In the case of yelling at someone on your land (I'm not sure I'd go as far as hitting them with a stick, but I wasn't there) that's a clear plus in my book: hopefully she'll think before trying a stunt next time, and maybe not either get shot at or fall down a big hole.

More specifically in that case - I'd harm to prevent (a greater harm); and I'd harm to protect (in certain circumstances and I suspect that anyone who says they never would hasn't thought it through). But I have two caveats.

The first is based on a saying, 'we do not use poison weapons against our enemies; nor even against the enemies of our friends'. It sounds Arabic to me but I've been assured in the past that it's Scots/Irish, and for me part of what it means is that the response must be proportionate and honest. If someone does the dirty on you in business, you confront them face-to-face rather than starting a whispering campaign. If, as happened recently, some yobs throw bricks at my wife, I'm justified in chasing them off, and, if I think I can manage it, perhaps tackling them. I'm not justified in pulling out a gun and shooting them, no matter how satisfying that may seem.

The second is that I must be aware of the consequences and be prepared to take them. In that latter example, one of them fell into a ditch whilst running away. If he'd decided to take the matter to the police, I would need to be prepared to stand up in court, put my side of the story and, if the jury felt I was unjustified in my actions (as they certainly would if I pulled a gun) be prepared to take my licks. Equally, if I'd fallen into the ditch and they'd started lobbing bricks at me, those are the consequences I invited when giving chase. In this case, for me, either would have been preferable to seeing my wife hurt.

(In the event, he ended up covered in mud and his friends started laughing at him, so a good result all round since the gang is now smaller and less cohesive than it was).

blessings
ffecther

[Shanti]

Great sharing everyone. I am really enjoying reading your thoughts!!! :)

Thank you. :)

[LadyWillow]

my belief regarding the rede is that you should in general make an effort to not harm people unless it's absolutely necessary, and necessity should be deeply meditated on before action is taken (this isn't required if you, your loved ones or innocent passerby are under attack of course)

I agree. I try not to hurt anyone in any way, but it is going to happen, regardless of how hard I try. I try to make a concious effort to avoid it if I can, and if it's a situation that calls for something to happen because I, or someone I love will be hurt, then I have every right to stand up and defend myself, even if that means I must harm someone that wants to/is harming me.

It's just a matter of sizing up the situation and trying not to harm anyone if you can help it.

[Stormcat]

First of all, the Rede isn't only two words, nor is it just eight words. It is a longer poem comprised of couplets that give general guidelines regarding how the Wicca are to do certain things. What is generally called the Wiccan Rede is but the last couplet of this poem.

Rede Of The Wiccae

Being known as the counsel of the Wise Ones:

Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust.
Live an’ let live - Fairly take an’ fairly give.
Cast the Circle thrice about To keep all evil spirits out.
To bind the spell every time - Let the spell be spake in rhyme.
Soft of eye an’ light of touch - Speak little, listen much.
Deosil go by the waxing Moon - Sing and dance the Wiccan rune.
Widdershins go when the Moon doth wane, An’ the Werewolf howls by the dread Wolfbane.
When the Lady’s Moon is new, Kiss thy hand to Her times two.
When the Moon rides at Her peak Then your heart’s desire seek.
Heed the Northwind’s mighty gale - Lock the door and drop the sail.
When the wind comes from the South, Love will kiss thee on the mouth.
When the wind blows from the East, Expect the new and set the feast.
When the West wind blows o’er thee, Departed spirits restless be.
Nine Woods in the Cauldron go - Burn them quick an’ burn them slow.
Elder be ye Lady’s tree - Burn it not or cursed ye’ll be.
When the Wheel begins to turn - Let the Beltane fires burn.
When the Wheel has turned a Yule, Light the Log an’ let Pan rule.
Heed ye flower bush an’ tree - By the Lady Blessèd Be.
Where the rippling waters go Cast a stone an’ truth ye’ll know.
When ye have need, Hearken not to others greed.
With the fool no season spend Or be counted as his friend.
Merry meet an’ merry part - Bright the cheeks an’ warm the heart.
Mind the Threefold Law ye should - Three times bad an’ three times good.
When misfortune is enow, Wear the Blue Star on thy brow.
True in love ever be Unless thy lover’s false to thee.
Eight words ye Wiccan Rede fulfill - An’ it harm none, Do what ye will.

An does not mean and. It means if. So IF it harms none, do what you will. If it does harm something? The Rede doesn't say. It is here that the ethics and morals of the individual witch come into play.

[Shield_Wolf]

That depends Stormcat, Gerald Gardner in 1953 only wrote, with no harm to others and do what thou wilt. Later in 1974 the poem you post was put into the Green Egg magazine by Lady Gwen Thompson. She ascribed it to her grandmother Adriana Porter, and claimed that the earlier published text was distorted from "its original form."

[Lunacie]

There are probably many groups who had passed down a version of the Rede, but it seems doubtful that the longer version is the original.
Many believe that the Wiccan Credo (or the Rede of the Wiccae) was published later than the Wiccan Rede, although the Credo does include the Rede at the end.

I know I have seen this discussed in more places, but this is the only one I can remember at the moment. Oh, one was probably The Ranting Witches, which seems to be offine at the moment.

http://wicca.timerift.net/laws/credo.shtml