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Catiana
June 14th, 2007, 06:40 PM
I'm glad to see that this State is finally taking animal cruely seriusly, although I would have liked to see him get more than 90 days, and I definitely hope that a condition of his probation is that he can never own any kind of animal again.


But then again, 90 days in Sheriff Joe's tent city in the middle of the Phoenix summer isn't exactly a picnic, especially since the Sheriff is an animal lover.



A Glendale man who fed a puppy coated with cooking oil to a malnourished snake was sentenced Thursday to a 90-day jail term.

Joseph E. Beadle, 40, who pleaded guilty to a charge of animal cruelty, also was placed on two-years' probation.

Beadle, who could have received as much as a year in the slammer, was given credit for the 51 days he already has spent behind bars.


http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/0614gl-petboa0614-ON.html

Shanti
June 14th, 2007, 07:06 PM
Wait a minute. What the heck is wrong with feeding a puppy vrs a mouse, rat , rabbit or any other animal that the snake considers food. Heck even in some countries dog is on the people menu!

I love dogs and all animals but nature isn't a human either and why do we place or morals on animals? Puppy would be a normal food to the snake if one crosses its path.

Sorry but I think this is where animal cruelty goes to far. Animals have no prob with the fact that nature says eat or be eaten. Canines are carnivores themselves.
They know the circle of life involves killing and eating flesh, often any flesh thats handy.
I think people have a problem excepting that animals are not people.

Thats my 2 cents. :)

Shanti
June 14th, 2007, 07:08 PM
I bet he wouldn't of gotten in trouble if he fed a baby snake to his dog!

Dawa Lhamo
June 14th, 2007, 07:11 PM
Shanti, I think it's a question more of intent. Was he just feeding the snake, or did he think it funny to make the snake hungry and then feed a puppy to it? Was it out of care for the snake, or for kicks? The article never stated. If it was just to feed it, well, I love little puppies, but you're right... what makes a puppy worse than a mouse? What line do we draw? If it's for kicks, well, then it was cruelty... of course, someone might do the same - for kicks - with a mouse or other "vermin" and it wouldn't be brought to trial... There's a double standard.

Willow Rosette
June 14th, 2007, 07:11 PM
Why is it ok to feed a large rat or mouse or rabbit to snakes and not a puppy?? Im wondering how that line is drawn? Food for a snake is food for a snake. Im not saying it is ok to feed a puppy to a snake or that he allowed those boys to watch but why is it not ok to feed a small puppy but a rabbit/rat/mouse or whatever is?

**EDIT*** Sorry when I started the comment no one else had posted.

Wolf O Volos
June 14th, 2007, 07:20 PM
the distinction is that dogs are considered "companion" pets... Rats, mice, and other rodents, while possible to keep as pets, are considered vermin in the wild. If a person was to get jailed for feeding a Rat to a snake, then there would be a LOT of people in trouble for the precedent it sets... anybody who ever laid down a rat trap, or poison boxes to get rid of house mice, would be in some serious trouble eh?

But, if your neighbor was tired of listening to your dog bark all night, and put rat poisoning into its food dish while you were out... the neighbor would be in trouble for animal cruelty, and more than likely, people would be DEMANDING the person be jailed for it. The standard is set because dogs, while carnivores, and not really possessing the "morality" of humans, are in fact, considered "family members" to their owners. It is more to do with societal mores and public opinion of what constitutes a "family pet" and what constitutes "food"

When was the last time you walked into a pet store, and saw a cage full of "Feeder puppies"? Eh?

halfwaynowhere
June 14th, 2007, 07:25 PM
i don't see much wrong with what he did, if the snake was malnourished. we've got puppies filling the shelters. whats wrong with putting one to good use, to save the life of another animal? its okay to feed rabbits, which make great companion pets, and are often on the same level as dogs and cats these days. if he just did it because he was being mean or something, thats one thing. if he fed the snake a human baby, it would definitely be a problem. but a puppy is not worse than a rabbit, in my books. if he stole the puppy from a neighbor, that would be different, too. i don't know what he did.

Shanti
June 14th, 2007, 07:25 PM
The article did say the snake was malnourished and canine pup would be a wholesome food.

As for the kids watching, so what? Its part of the animal world, snake eats pup, lion eats baby gazelle, crow eats baby robin.
People eat cow, chicken, etc and those are killed too!
Good roasting chickens and ducks and turkeys are killed young too!
'Veil', rack of 'Lamb'?

I don't shelter my kids from the reality of nature, which isn't fluffy and nice. Its survival of the best, smart, and lucky!
And even cute things die to feed others.

Wolf O Volos
June 14th, 2007, 07:35 PM
I agree, for the most part...

But just on first impressions of the article, this wasnt something done in a "let's teach the kids about nature" fashion, was not a survival of the fittest lesson... just that the guy thought it would be fun to feed a snake ( that wasn't well cared for in the first place from the sounds of it ) a puppy....

So if this snake got loose, and crawled its way into your yard, and snarfed a goat, or a lamb, or one of your cats... you would say "Ah well... thats just nature taking its course"? It is more the principle of what was done here. If it was COMMON practice to feed dogs to reptiles, or if this was something that the populace at large did not find offensive, when they think of Fido becoming food, and not having any repercussions for their loss... Then it would be a totally different story.

While the argument is valid that we dont have a problem feeding bunnies to snakes, and we have a habit of eating farm animals... here in the States, Dogs are not considered livestock, food, or reptile food. Classifications are a hassle, but they DO kinda sorta keep the order.

Rudas Starblaze
June 14th, 2007, 07:36 PM
other than the cooking oil, i dont see anything wrong with that the guy did. but it does give me good ideas for helping with.......nvm.... if ya all thought i was a little strange before this might take the cake.:smoke:

Dawa Lhamo
June 14th, 2007, 07:43 PM
Sure it was malnourished, but are boas native to Arizona? Was it wild? or escaped from someone else? Or was it his and he just didn't feed it? If the latter, then the animal cruelty charge should include cruelty to the snake.... "Malnourished" is different than just "hungry", too. It indicates a consistent lack of care for the snake. If that's his fault, then I'm glad he went to prison.

And it also matters where he got the puppy. Was it a stray/feral that he'd found? Or did it belong to someone else? Or was it his? ... this all makes a difference in the "rightness"/"wrongness" of the action, IMO.

Catiana
June 14th, 2007, 07:45 PM
I agree with Wolf O Volos.

While I do understand what the others are saying, for right or wrong there is a distinction between feeding mice/rats/rabbits to snakes and feeding puppies to snakes, in the same way we don't feed kittens to dogs.

Catiana
June 14th, 2007, 07:46 PM
Sure it was malnourished, but are boas native to Arizona? Was it wild? or escaped from someone else? Or was it his and he just didn't feed it? If the latter, then the animal cruelty charge should include cruelty to the snake.... "Malnourished" is different than just "hungry", too. It indicates a consistent lack of care for the snake. If that's his fault, then I'm glad he went to prison.

And it also matters where he got the puppy. Was it a stray/feral that he'd found? Or did it belong to someone else? Or was it his? ... this all makes a difference in the "rightness"/"wrongness" of the action, IMO.


The snake was his pet and I believe the puppy was from his dog, but I'm not sure on that. I'll try to find the original article, this is not the first time this has been in the news.

Rudas Starblaze
June 14th, 2007, 07:46 PM
this thread makes me wanna get a 20' python!! :smoke:

Catiana
June 14th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Here's an older story on the situation Apparently when he pleaded guilty back March, he told the judge he couldn't afford to feed the snake, so he fed it the puppy, then he failed to show up for sentencing in April, and then today finally did show up.

Also apparenlty his girlfriend was also arrested because she threatened the two boys who turned the guy in.

Also, it says that the snake had some kind of neurological disorder and had to be euthanized in April.

http://www.kpho.com/news/13013298/detail.html

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 08:01 PM
in the same way we don't feed kittens to dogs.


Well YOU don't....

Shanti
June 14th, 2007, 08:26 PM
While the argument is valid that we dont have a problem feeding bunnies to snakes, and we have a habit of eating farm animals... here in the States, Dogs are not considered livestock, food, or reptile food. Classifications are a hassle, but they DO kinda sorta keep the order. But by technical standards dogs are legally a persons property just like their couch.

If a person kills your dog and you sue, you get the value of the animal, what you paid for it or what it would cost to replace it.
Thats exactly what would happen if someone wrecked your couch and you sued.

If livestock is killed, you get the value and loss value of its service.
You dont get that with a dog or couch.

The point, legally our dogs are still property, just like a rabbit or mouse.
Why its ok for a domestic rabbit to be fed to a snake but not a dog, I have no clue.
The only thing that makes a pet, a pet, is our attachment to it and dictating the same attachment to other peoples lives. Why the heck are animals even classified to such extreme. Technically they can all be food.

I feel our country is messed up. Thousands upon thousands of dog and puppies are killed everyday in shelters and then incinerated or tossed into land fills, waisted! But hey that's ok!
Feeding a dog to a snake...a big no no.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 08:29 PM
Shanti I agree, why does matter what small mammal he fed to his snake?

I personally would've gone with kittens, but I hate cats. I like mice way more than dogs though so the puppy certainly seems appropriate.

Shanti
June 14th, 2007, 08:30 PM
He couldnt afford to feed the snake so he fed it his puppy...obviously he couldnt afford to buy a rabbit. So?
He fed it didn't he?

And the neurological disorder is not relevant thus far because they don't state its cause, which could of been even genetic with all we know.

From the articles, it seems to me its hyped because of the fact it was a cute puppy. And the kids were teens, big deal.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 08:34 PM
If he couldn't afford to feed the snake, he shouldn't have it. I think if there was any animal cruelty charges being filed, it should definitely include the snake.

Willow Rosette
June 14th, 2007, 08:34 PM
I think this guy not feeding the snake and making it malnourished should be a bigger issue. He should be prosicuted for NOT feeding the snake properly vs feeding it the pup.

I personally dont feel feeding live is a good idea for either animal. A friend recently showed me a picture of a snake that was tore up something fierce vs eating an already dead aimal. It was awfull and I am suprised we are allowed to feed live food considering the damage it can cause.

Dawa Lhamo
June 14th, 2007, 08:46 PM
I think this guy not feeding the snake and making it malnourished should be a bigger issue. He should be prosicuted for NOT feeding the snake properly vs feeding it the pup.

I personally dont feel feeding live is a good idea for either animal. A friend recently showed me a picture of a snake that was tore up something fierce vs eating an already dead aimal. It was awfull and I am suprised we are allowed to feed live food considering the damage it can cause.I agree. It was cruel to both... esp. since it was a live feeding. I didn't even think of the damage to the snake that a struggling puppy with tiny little claws might do. Ouch. Don't boas usually strangle their prey and *then* devour them? Anyway, if he couldn't care for it, he shouldn't own it... I imagine *he* was well-fed...

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 08:52 PM
If he couldn't afford to feed the snake, he shouldn't have it. I think if there was any animal cruelty charges being filed, it should definitely include the snake.

Shite happens, snakes (like dogs) live awhile. If he could afford the snake when owned it and then later his circumstances changed (loss of a job?) then how is it HIS fault he couldn't afford it?

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 08:59 PM
Shite happens, snakes (like dogs) live awhile. If he could afford the snake when owned it and then later his circumstances changed (loss of a job?) then how is it HIS fault he couldn't afford it?

Because its his responsibility to feed it. If he couldn't feed it then he has to get rid of it. If he doesn't, he is neglecting that animal.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 09:05 PM
Because its his responsibility to feed it. If he couldn't feed it then he has to get rid of it. If he doesn't, he is neglecting that animal.

I am sure "getting rid" of the snake is an istant process too, so that he wouldn't need to feed the thing while looking for a new home for it...

Unless you think he should have killed the snake to make kibble for the dogs....

Willow Rosette
June 14th, 2007, 09:14 PM
I know here in town the Sacramento Zoo will take a snake instantly and there are rescue organizations.

PandoraHealer
June 14th, 2007, 09:32 PM
I'm sure you all see my big albino up there- We have several large snakes here right now- 2 of them can take a 25 lb pig in a feeding... a few of the others can take 2 or 3 large rabbits... most just take small rabbits, rats, and mice...

I wouldn't personally feed a dog to one of our snakes- We have had several snakes come in that will not eat- they are usually skinny and get skinnier- we had one not eat for 9 months- he lived- when he started eating- we covered the rabbits in karo syrup- its very fatty and helped him gain weight as well as be less stressful going down.

We do NOT feed live animals to our snakes- EVER!! Its very dangerous and can kill the snake.

I have mixed feelings on this- as Shanti said, in many other cultures- snakes are pets and dogs are food- but thats other cultures- not America. here, rabbits are pets as well as food. The rabbits we feed our snakes would not make good pets. They are bred for meat or for feeders-- i have a guy here locally that supplies my feeders. They are ugly, a bit aggressive, don't have good coats, and certainly aren't those cute lop eared guys in the pet store. We have a lop ear as a pet- we also plan on getting some ferrets.

We've had a few snakes in that eat other snakes- we buy garter snakes from the pet store for 10$ to feed some of the kingsnakes and sometimes the monitors.

If this guy is going to face animal cruelty charges it should only be for feeding a LIVE prey item to a snake- ALL of our prey items are HUMAINLY EUTHANIZED and then fed to the snakes. most of what we get is shipped to us. here is a place that supplies frozen feeders- www.rodentpro.com (http://www.rodentpro.com) -

Live prey can also do an extreme amount of damage to a snake. I'll try and attach a pic. (the same pic I've shown countless people)

When feeding a live animal to a snake- Rabbits scream, mice and rats squeak, and pigs will squeal- its all pain- and its horrible. We invested in a 'gas chamber'- they go to sleep- and thats that. it was expensive but well worth it for the sake of the prey as well as the safety of our snakes...

BB-PH


editied to add:
as for the snake being skinny- I have all too often gotten snakes that should be dead- we had one that hadn't eaten in 6 months when we got it- it took us another 3 to make it eat- He was 12 ft and only about 30 lbs.- should have been around 100. Want to know what got him to eat? Karo syrup- the guy had probably done some research and found the info (just like we did) that karo syrup (or cooking syrup in this guys case) can encourage a feeding response. As for the choice of the puppy- who knows- I've got some that wont eat a rat but will take a dozen mice all day- i've got some that i had to wash a rabbit with shampoo, blow dry and rub a rat on it to get the 'rat scent' on the rabbit- things smell different- thats why we dont feed hamsters or guinea pigs- they're better smelling (and a bit healthier) but they're too expensive...
maybe he was trying a new prey item to see if it would help with the feeding response...

As for getting rid of it- thats not always the easiest thing to do - We have over 30 animals right now- we're set up to have 12 I say that again 12 iguanas, and close to 12 LARGE snakes (over 14 ft)- we can have around 80 total animals- we have the room Iguanas and large snakes are hard to place- we have 4 iguanas and one on the way- we have 7 large snakes- and one more in 2 weeks- i have to pick it up in houston- 9 hours away. I know about 30 other people that take in these same animals and they're full and sending people my way- we just spent over 3500$ to expand in order to house the growing # of animals... its very hard to find someone to take a large snake...... especially one that will need around 500 $ in immediate vet care (don't get me started on the 1200$/month we spend on vet bills- and thats for injuries or problems I CAN'T FIX ON MY OWN)...

i think i'm done.....

Dawa Lhamo
June 14th, 2007, 09:36 PM
I'm not much for snakes, but it's not hard to have sympathy for that, PandoraHealer. Ouch!!! How can *anyone* think that's a good idea???

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 09:41 PM
How "fresh" does the animal need to be to feed to a snake? AS in how soon after death will it be too late to feed to a snake?

Yes it was stupid of the guy to feed the puppy to the snake live, he could have at least broken it's neck cleanly and then gave it to the snake.

I may not immediately blame him for not be able to feed it but he should at least be educated on the best way to take care of the snake.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 09:46 PM
I am sure "getting rid" of the snake is an istant process too, so that he wouldn't need to feed the thing while looking for a new home for it...

Unless you think he should have killed the snake to make kibble for the dogs....

I'm pretty sure there are institutions and pet rescues who will kindly take the snake in immediately if he feels he can no longer take care of it.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 09:48 PM
I'm pretty sure there are institutions and pet rescues who will kindly take the snake in immediately if he feels he can no longer take care of it.

Life is so simple when it's someone else's problem and pet isn't it?

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 09:51 PM
Life is so simple when it's someone else's problem and pet isn't it?

If thats what you want to believe, fine.

halfwaynowhere
June 14th, 2007, 09:54 PM
if he couldn't afford to feed the snake, he probably couldn't afford to feed the extra puppies (i'm assuming his dog had more than one). Sure, rehoming is always an option, but honestly, dogs are going to be dying in shelters anyways, i would much rather see them go to good use than to just die and be burned. I am a strong advocate for the food chain.

halfwaynowhere
June 14th, 2007, 09:56 PM
I'm pretty sure there are institutions and pet rescues who will kindly take the snake in immediately if he feels he can no longer take care of it.

rescues do not have unlimited resources, and often have to turn away critters. I can't speak for reptile rescues, but knowing how few of them there are, I would assume they would have that problem, as well. It would be nice if these rescues were capable of taking in every animal in need, but realistically, it doesn't usually work that way.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 09:57 PM
if he couldn't afford to feed the snake, he probably couldn't afford to feed the extra puppies (i'm assuming his dog had more than one). Sure, rehoming is always an option, but honestly, dogs are going to be dying in shelters anyways, i would much rather see them go to good use than to just die and be burned. I am a strong advocate for the food chain.


QFT! 2B1S!

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 09:59 PM
rescues do not have unlimited resources, and often have to turn away critters. I can't speak for reptile rescues, but knowing how few of them there are, I would assume they would have that problem, as well. It would be nice if these rescues were capable of taking in every animal in need, but realistically, it doesn't usually work that way.

I never said that rescues had unlimited resources. I am sure if he could not feed it, he could get rid of it or at least find an avenue where he could get basic feed without having it malnourished.

halfwaynowhere
June 14th, 2007, 10:00 PM
QFT! 2B1S!

huh?

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 10:03 PM
I never said that rescues had unlimited resources. I am sure if he could not feed it, he could get rid of it or at least find an avenue where he could get basic feed without having it malnourished.

There's no garuntee he could find it right away, if so during his search he still needs to feed the thing. Also, who says he didn't love the snake and didn't want to give it up? So he just fed it the available small mammal.



huh?


Quoted for truth, 2 birds, one stone.

Catiana
June 14th, 2007, 10:03 PM
Actually the snake did kill the puppy before he ate it. The original article which isn't availabe any more, was pretty graphic in the description of how the snake squeezed the puppy, breaking its bones which the kids could hear, and the noises the puppy was making while the snake strangeled it, which the kids could also hear. I'm not sure if the original article mentioned if the cruelty charges included the snake as well, but I think it did.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 10:07 PM
There's no garuntee he could find it right away, if so during his search he still needs to feed the thing. Also, who says he didn't love the snake and didn't want to give it up? So he just fed it the available small mammal.

Then he left the search for too long. Was there vets that could help? RSPCA (or whatever its called in USA)? Even looking for any mice around would be beneficial.

The snake was malnourished. If he supposedly loved the snake, he would not have left it to starve.

Shanti
June 14th, 2007, 10:14 PM
Boas squeeze their prey. And a live puppy isn't a threat for the snake that nature designed to kill by squeezing.
Now a large rat can inflict damage.
A 3 week old pup, no.

And its normal for the snake to squeeze its prey and yeah, it breaks bones.

Its not a humane way for the pup to die, but the pup nor snake are human.

Ever see how a dog kills prey? Not pretty.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Then he left the search for too long. Was there vets that could help? RSPCA (or whatever its called in USA)? Even looking for any mice around would be beneficial.

The snake was malnourished. If he supposedly loved the snake, he would not have left it to starve.


He didn't leave it to starve, he fed it a puppy!

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 10:19 PM
He didn't leave it to starve, he fed it a puppy!

It was malnourished before he fed it a puppy.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 10:20 PM
It was malnourished before he fed it a puppy.


Well he had to wait for the puppies to be born didn't he?!

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 10:21 PM
Well he had to wait for the puppies to be born didn't he?!

And he couldn't feed it during that time?

halfwaynowhere
June 14th, 2007, 10:22 PM
i haven't read the articles, so i'm not sure if he starved the snake by not feeding it, or if the snake just didn't eat. one of my BIL's snakes wouldn't eat for several months, he was able to force feed her by putting a (killed)mouse in her mouth, and it at least got some food in her, but she just hadn't eaten in awhile. sometimes she'd kill her food (he live feeds, not something that I agree with for pets, but whatever) and then just leave it there. i don't have much personal experience with snakes, but i know that sometimes they just won't eat, and will starve themselves to near death.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 10:26 PM
i haven't read the articles, so i'm not sure if he starved the snake by not feeding it, or if the snake just didn't eat. one of my BIL's snakes wouldn't eat for several months, he was able to force feed her by putting a (killed)mouse in her mouth, and it at least got some food in her, but she just hadn't eaten in awhile. sometimes she'd kill her food (he live feeds, not something that I agree with for pets, but whatever) and then just leave it there. i don't have much personal experience with snakes, but i know that sometimes they just won't eat, and will starve themselves to near death.

It ate the puppy, right?

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 10:26 PM
And he couldn't feed it during that time?

He didn't have any puppies...

Shanti
June 14th, 2007, 10:27 PM
i haven't read the articles, so i'm not sure if he starved the snake by not feeding it, or if the snake just didn't eat. one of my BIL's snakes wouldn't eat for several months, he was able to force feed her by putting a (killed)mouse in her mouth, and it at least got some food in her, but she just hadn't eaten in awhile. sometimes she'd kill her food (he live feeds, not something that I agree with for pets, but whatever) and then just leave it there. i don't have much personal experience with snakes, but i know that sometimes they just won't eat, and will starve themselves to near death.This is true, snakes can get every picky and moody and make themselves malnourished.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 10:28 PM
He didn't have any puppies...

You know, this raises a good point. What was the mother dog like? If the snake was malnourished, what was the mother like and, furthermore, the puppies?

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 10:29 PM
It ate the puppy, right?

Perhaps it only eats puppies...

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 10:33 PM
Perhaps it only eats puppies...

Maybe it does. Was there any puppies being given away that he could've gotten?

PandoraHealer
June 14th, 2007, 10:41 PM
There are a lot of reasons the snake may have been malnourished- I've had TONS- in fact- THE MAJORITY OF THEM I GET ARE SKINNY- and some will eat the first thing I throw in to them- but most don't-
I've had several not eat for quite a while- I've got one now, that is in our personal collection- seperate from the rescue that hasn't eaten in 2 months- she's not going to die= she can go another 3 months before its really an issue or before you see a change in her body weight.

on the otherside- depending on what 'malnourished' in this case- actually means- it takes quite some time for a snake to start dropping weight... who knows...

as for the prey being fresh- theres a few ways of feeding snakes-
live- big no no
F/K- (Fresh Killed) - you break its neck/gas it or *whatever your method is* and toss it in for the snake
F/T- (Frozen Thawed)- we euthanize quite a few at a time and freeze what we won't feed that day- there are a few snakes that don't seem to like Frozen/Thawed- (maybe freezer burn?) but mostly- they don't care- I've had to use a blow dryer on a few and warm them up- i've had to dip some in water- i've had to hold the rabbits leg/ or use tweezers and dangle it (make them think its alive)-

Its mostly up to the handler and the snake.....

as for rescues- i said before that we just spent 3200$ on new cages- thats ontop of the 1200/ PER MONTH in vet bills- on top of the medical supplies (alcohol, iodine, hyrdogen peroxide, gauze pads, frontline for bugs, etc etc etc- that i buy from the store)
Then theres food- Iguanas take about 5$ per week per animal to feed- snakes are a bit cheaper- we spend around 250$ per month on them, then theres the cricket eaters- about 40$/ month-plust the odds and ends we buy on the medical side- we'll go low and say 150/month ( a bottle of spray frontline is around 35-40$ and gauze is expensive too- )
now- that in itself adds up to.... 500$/MONTH!!! PLUS 1200- in vet bills= 1700$/MONTH-
Then theres buying lights, bowls, branches, and whatever else...


and then theres the time- I started this several years back and last year- I QUIT MY FULL TIME JOB TO RUN THIS RESCUE- IT TAKES THAT MUCH TIME!!!
I spend around 4 hours a day cleaning cages- 1 -2 hours washing bowls and preparing meals, then answer phone calls, emails (about 7 a day), make calls to local zoos...etc...
I'll bet that if you looked up online a reptile rescue in your area you wouldn't find much- and if you do find one- call them - see how many animals they have, and please for the love of everything in this world- donate- newpaper, money, time, whatever... Most rescues are FULL!!! and big snakes- not many people want to mess with them- so dumping it on someone else isn't really an option...
yha know?


i think maybe this guy was trying to do the right thing and get the snake to eat. and for that matter- my kids have seen our snakes eat- I don't want them raised to think that certain animals are bad- they're not- i have a 2 year old that loves to watch them- he says wow and ooh and aahh. he loves it and the snakes don't mind the attention. i've gone to countless schools and the kids love the snakes- society has placed snakes on the 'bad' list- along with dozens of other animals... I can almost guarantee you that if you were to come here and hold one of these snakes- just for 10 minutes- quietly watch them move, feel thier scales, you'd change your mind on how horrible they are-

this being said- i still don't feed my snakes dogs nor do I feed them live..... and don't believe every news 'thing' you read- most of it is over-dramatic and full of BS- "you could hear its bones cracking" my big white a$$-
ever shot a deer? - then you don't have much room to talk...

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 10:44 PM
Maybe it does. Was there any puppies being given away that he could've gotten?

He didn't have any gas in his car...

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 10:45 PM
He didn't have any gas in his car...

Walking is good.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 10:51 PM
Walking is good.


Not in the desert.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 10:52 PM
Not in the desert.

Depends how far away the town/city is.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 10:59 PM
Depends how far away the town/city is.

In the part of the U.S. most towns, cities, and neighbors are spread pretty far apart.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 11:13 PM
In the part of the U.S. most towns, cities, and neighbors are spread pretty far apart.

Then there should be other forms of transport available to him.

HetHert
June 14th, 2007, 11:15 PM
Reality is often dissappointing, and highly dissillusioning. Welcome to the jungle.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 11:17 PM
Then there should be other forms of transport available to him.


Public transit and the American SouthWest don't mix well.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 11:19 PM
Public transit and the American SouthWest don't mix well.

And there are no other modes of transport?

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 11:22 PM
And there are no other modes of transport?

That he can magically produce?

No.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 11:24 PM
That he can magically produce?

No.

No friends he can get a ride with?

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 11:27 PM
No friends he can get a ride with?

He didn't have any friends, lived in a different state than his family, didn't pay his phone bill and had no stamps to write a letter.

That about cover it?

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 11:29 PM
He didn't have any friends, lived in a different state than his family, didn't pay his phone bill and had no stamps to write a letter.

That about cover it?

No bike?

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 11:41 PM
No bike?

Bike 20 miles in the desert, in the summer with a starving snake wrapped around you and the bike???

Um, let's not.

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 11:48 PM
Bike 20 miles in the desert, in the summer with a starving snake wrapped around you and the bike???

Um, let's not.

He lives 20 miles in the desert? And he doesn't bring the snake. Leave it at home, collect the free puppies, and bike home.

Fairy_Princess
June 14th, 2007, 11:51 PM
He lives 20 miles in the desert? And he doesn't bring the snake. Leave it at home, collect the free puppies, and bike home.

20 miles each way in the summer desert AND he has to balance a box of yelping puppies on the bike on the return?

That's not feasible, or recommended.

This is all assuming his closest neighbor at 20 miles away HAS any puppies up for snake chow and he can get ahold of the neighbor to set up this pick up with no phone and no stamps....

Philosophia
June 14th, 2007, 11:54 PM
20 miles each way in the summer desert AND he has to balance a box of yelping puppies on the bike on the return?

That's not feasible, or recommended.

If he has a dog, then what is feeding it? What about any other wild life outside? Can he catch it?

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 12:01 AM
If he has a dog, then what is feeding it? What about any other wild life outside? Can he catch it?

He has a vast store of Pork and Beans and Dog food for the dog, of course. How's he going to catch the local wildlife? A butterfly net? He doesn't have a butterfly net.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 12:03 AM
He has a vast store of Pork and Beans and Dog food for the dog, of course. How's he going to catch the local wildlife? A butterfly net? He doesn't have a butterfly net.

What about a gun? Or any traps?

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 12:08 AM
What about a gun? Or any traps?


He's a convicted felon he's not allowed to own a gun. The Roadrunner has taught that desert animals never fall for traps.... He'd just end up hurting himself like the Coyote.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 12:10 AM
He's a convicted felon he's not allowed to own a gun. The Roadrunner has taught that desert animals never fall for traps.... He'd just end up hurting himself like the Coyote.

Maybe he'll catch some coyote's instead.

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 12:11 AM
You don't want to give wildlife to a tame, not local, snake. Man that's trouble, disease, parasites all sorts of things can and would most likely happen. Boas dont come from here and they have no immunities to our wildlife's contaminates. And all wildlife harbor all sorts of things.
That would be a good way to kill a Boa.

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 12:13 AM
You don't want to give wildlife to a tame, not local, snake. Man that's trouble, disease, parasites all sorts of things can and would most likely happen. Boas dont come from here and they have no immunities to our wildlife's contaminates. And all wildlife harbor all sorts of things.
That would be a good way to kill a Boa.


Yeah, what Shanti said!

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 12:13 AM
You don't want to give wildlife to a tame, not local, snake. Man that's trouble, disease, parasites all sorts of things can and would most likely happen. Boas dont come from here and they have no immunities to our wildlife's contaminates. And all wildlife harbor all sorts of things.
That would be a good way to kill a Boa.

So would malnutrition.

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 12:17 AM
So would malnutrition.
Thats treatable, like by giving it food.
If need be, a pup would do.

Many diseases it could get from local wildlife are not so easily fixed!

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 12:19 AM
So would malnutrition.


Not as fast as Mad Mouse Disease.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 12:22 AM
Thats treatable, like by giving it food.
If need be, a pup would do.

Many diseases it could get from local wildlife are not so easily fixed!

But this guy is 20 k/ms away from civilization with no phone or postage stamps for letters, no petrol in his car, no friends or partners, can't own a gun, family out of state, and can't walk.

He has no other way of getting food out to him. What did he use before the puppies came?

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 12:24 AM
Not as fast as Mad Mouse Disease.

But if he's catching coyotes...?

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 12:28 AM
He may have had money then.
Guy goes broke, snakes can go a long time between meals, so man feeds dog that is pg.
Snakes is getting hungry. Puppies born. Man still to broke to feed dog and snake but man has puppies, feeds snake. Hopes soon to find a solution to money prob before he runs out of puppies.

Its a possibility. One life isnt more valuable than another because of species IMO.
Snake had a need, dog had puppies.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 12:31 AM
He may have had money then.
Guy goes broke, snakes can go a long time between meals, so man feeds dog that is pg.
Snakes is getting hungry. Puppies born. Man still to broke to feed dog and snake but man has puppies, feeds snake. Hopes soon to find a solution to money prob before he runs out of puppies.

Its a possibility. One life isnt more valuable than another because of species IMO.
Snake had a need, dog had puppies.

But if he saved food for the dog, why not save food for the snake?

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 12:42 AM
Its not a humane way for the pup to die, but the pup nor snake are human.
.



THIS summarizes why I still think that the guy gets what he deserves. It wasnt a case of the snake getting loose. It wasnt a puppy randomly walking into the yard. It was a case of the guy setting up an inhumane act. The puppy and snake are not humans, and therefor not responsible. But who was the one setting them against one another? Were they going to meet up "in the wild"...?

So cockfights are illegal. Pit fighting with Dogs is illegal. So why do you have such outrage and sympathy for someone who set up just another "inhumane" display, for the entertainment of a few teenagers? If it would have been a Dog, malnourished, and starving, and all the guy had was a few kittens that he decided he couldnt afford to keep... Just because dogs in the wild would hunt and eat whatever prey they could, would you say the man was JUST helping along the natural food chain?


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

Willow Rosette
June 15th, 2007, 12:47 AM
I'm not much for snakes, but it's not hard to have sympathy for that, PandoraHealer. Ouch!!! How can *anyone* think that's a good idea???

PH forgot to point out that that snake had more than an ouch. It died from that.


But this guy is 20 k/ms away from civilization with no phone or postage stamps for letters, no petrol in his car, no friends or partners, can't own a gun, family out of state, and can't walk.

We know all of this how????

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 12:49 AM
We know all of this how????

Fairy princess brought it up.

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 12:53 AM
But if he saved food for the dog, why not save food for the snake?

Dog food is cheaper and used more way more often than snake food. Dogs eat daily, snakes do not.


We know all of this how????

We know all this the same way Philosiphia knew it would be very simple for him to give the snake up.


THIS summarizes why I still think that the guy gets what he deserves. It wasnt a case of the snake getting loose. It wasnt a puppy randomly walking into the yard. It was a case of the guy setting up an inhumane act. The puppy and snake are not humans, and therefor not responsible. But who was the one setting them against one another? Were they going to meet up "in the wild"...?

So cockfights are illegal. Pit fighting with Dogs is illegal. So why do you have such outrage and sympathy for someone who set up just another "inhumane" display, for the entertainment of a few teenagers? If it would have been a Dog, malnourished, and starving, and all the guy had was a few kittens that he decided he couldnt afford to keep... Just because dogs in the wild would hunt and eat whatever prey they could, would you say the man was JUST helping along the natural food chain?
.

It's not inhumane to feed a snake, not even if the food is a puppy. Also, I have trouble with making Kittens and Bits for a hungry dog.

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 12:55 AM
If it would have been a Dog, malnourished, and starving, and all the guy had was a few kittens that he decided he couldnt afford to keep... Just because dogs in the wild would hunt and eat whatever prey they could, would you say the man was JUST helping along the natural food chain?


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........Not helping the food chain....Um just allowing it to exist as its has always been. Life feeds on life. And some life feeds on death.
No life is worth more than another, IMO. If one is hungry and another is available..well eat or be eaten. Thats how animals are. They except the circle of living. Only the human species is different and has a prob with the facts of life.

Also, If the snake wasn't caged, it would of eaten the puppy and maybe more.
In the wild, If that snake came across pups of a wild canine, yes it would eat them!!

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 12:55 AM
That is a LOT of presumption....

He had no money, no car, no way to feed the animal....


blah blah blah..... Assumption is nothing without factual back up. If this guy was sentanced, and served time for this, then there were Obviously facts that the judge was privledge to... and we are not reading in the articles.

And it STILL does not excuse him of neglect.

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 12:57 AM
Dog food is cheaper and used more way more often than snake food. Dogs eat daily, snakes do not.

What FP said!! :)

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 12:58 AM
Not helping the food chain....Um just allowing it to exist as its has always been. Life feeds on life. And some life feeds on death.
No life is worth more than another, IMO. If one is hungry and another is available..well eat or be eaten. Thats how animals are. They except the circle of living. Only the human species is different and has a prob with the facts of life.

Also, If the snake wasn't caged, it would of eaten the puppy and maybe more.
In the wild, If that snake came across pups of a wild canine, yes it would eat them!!

All well and good, and actually, I am 100% behind you in this philosophy. I really am. BUT!!!! This was not a situation of being "in the wild" at all. It was set up, and carried out by human means. The guy slathered the puppy in oil, threw it in to the snake, and called over a few teens as a cheering section....

Circle of life. Survival of the fittest. Etc.... until HE took the matters into his very human, and rational, hands, and made it a set-up... not an "act of nature"

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 12:58 AM
That is a LOT of presumption....

He had no money, no car, no way to feed the animal....


blah blah blah..... Assumption is nothing without factual back up. If this guy was sentanced, and served time for this, then there were Obviously facts that the judge was privledge to... and we are not reading in the articles.

And it STILL does not excuse him of neglect.

We were discussing Phil's assertion that he could "simply" give away the snake, I methodically showed her how it may not have been so simple to "simply give the snake up" when he couldn't easily care for it.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 01:00 AM
Dog food is cheaper and used more way more often than snake food. Dogs eat daily, snakes do not.

Thus snake food wouldn't be ass expensive due to the fact they don't eat much. Also, wouldn't there need be to be a fridge with electricity for the food?


We know all this the same way Philosophia knew it would be very simple for him to give the snake up.

Or to feed him. It is easy but only if your willing to try.


It's not inhumane to feed a snake, not even if the food is a puppy. Also, I have trouble with making Kittens and Bits for a hungry dog.

I don't have a problem with it. But not the kittens....

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 01:00 AM
All well and good, and actually, I am 100% behind you in this philosophy. I really am. BUT!!!! This was not a situation of being "in the wild" at all. It was set up, and carried out by human means. The guy slathered the puppy in oil, threw it in to the snake, and called over a few teens as a cheering section....

Circle of life. Survival of the fittest. Etc.... until HE took the matters into his very human, and rational, hands, and made it a set-up... not an "act of nature"

But it was feeding a pet... Nothing wrong with feeding your pet.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 01:00 AM
We were discussing Phil's assertion that he could "simply" give away the snake, I methodically showed her how it may not have been so simple to "simply give the snake up" when he couldn't easily care for it.

No, you haven't shown me.

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 01:01 AM
Thus snake food wouldn't be ass expensive due to the fact they don't eat much. Also, wouldn't there need be to be a fridge with electricity for the food?

The snake food is more expensive because it is alive or sold only through specialty shops.

In the scenario he has Pork and beans (canned) and Dry Dog food. No fridge needed.



No, you haven't shown me.


I have put forth very plausible reasons why a person could be in a position NOT to be able to give the snake up.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 01:04 AM
The snake food is more expensive because it is alive or sold only through specialty shops.

In the scenario he has Pork and beans (canned) and Dry Dog food. No fridge needed.

Thus he has the food frozen. But how did he get that Pork and beans (canned) and dry dog food? And how does he get food for himself or water? What about perishables?

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 01:05 AM
All well and good, and actually, I am 100% behind you in this philosophy. I really am. BUT!!!! This was not a situation of being "in the wild" at all. It was set up, and carried out by human means. The guy slathered the puppy in oil, threw it in to the snake, and called over a few teens as a cheering section....

Circle of life. Survival of the fittest. Etc.... until HE took the matters into his very human, and rational, hands, and made it a set-up... not an "act of nature"
Then how is ok to raise cows for people? Thats not wild.
Its survival none the less. Eat or die.
The snake had to eat. Food was there.
If it was a mouse would it be ok?

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 01:05 AM
I have put forth very plausible reasons why a person could be in a position NOT to be able to give the snake up.

And I've countered them.

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 01:06 AM
Thus he has the food frozen. But how did he get that Pork and beans (canned) and dry dog food? And how does he get food for himself or water? What about perishables?
Some snakes will eat only live food. It an individual thing.
Some can adjust to pre-dead, some cant.

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 01:06 AM
We were discussing Phil's assertion that he could "simply" give away the snake, I methodically showed her how it may not have been so simple to "simply give the snake up" when he couldn't easily care for it.

And assuming that you are absolutely correct, and he suffered all these hardships... Does that legally excuse him of neglect? If this were a child, and not a snake, and Child Protective Services was called to find a severely malnourished child because this poor guy was so destitute... What do you suppose the charge against him would be, and what do you think the outcome would be? They would say "Well, since the child is yours, we really can't step in and take it away"? No way! The kid would be gone and the man would be charged with neglect.

Fine, it isnt a child we are talking about... but we ARE talking about responsibility, and we are talking about the LEGAL issues here.

The ramifications of setting a precedent that would allow for dogs to be considered livestock, and proper to use for "feed" would allow for German Shephard to show up on McDonalds' menu... "Free to good home/ or for use in feeding your pet snake!" adds in the newspaper? ... Its all well and good to state things objectively, but nobody really looks at the broad spectrum....

Willow Rosette
June 15th, 2007, 01:06 AM
If a snake is not kept at a proper temperture even in the desert they can get very sick. If he did not have electricity that in its self would be harming the snake.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 01:08 AM
Some snakes will eat only live food. It an individual thing.
Some can adjust to pre-dead, some cant.

But we don't know with this one, though, do we? Plus, if he had a girlfriend, couldn't she get the food?

BenSt
June 15th, 2007, 01:10 AM
I have read other comments...and can only add my two cents here but I think this is as much a morality issue as anything.

When I see a puppy... I can see emotion coming from it. Dogs and Cats are traditionally suited to Humans because we have been born with them and they have been born with us. We have that cross species bond and allegiance to one another.

Rats are rats... mice are mice. They live small lives and are bred specifically for the purpose of being food for other organisms.

I just somehow can't get over the fact that he coated the puppy in oil to feed to the snake... I can understand people's arguments of what makes one species better than another...but we have to look at this as higher and lower beings. If he had done this with a Human child, he would be classed as a murderer...he was an accessory to the child's death. Because Cats and Dogs are so closely linked with our species... this is why there are laws protecting them.

But I think, who was it.... Dawa on the first page made a good point that we have to look at intent as well. If he was responsible for the snake being malnourished then he still did harm to that snake... as well as the puppy.

Puppies also cost more becasue they are valued more... rats are not.

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 01:11 AM
Then how is ok to raise cows for people? Thats not wild.
Its survival none the less. Eat or die.
The snake had to eat. Food was there.
If it was a mouse would it be ok?

Cows: Livestock, classified as such, and farmers are compensated well for caring for them to be used AS FOOD. There are guidelines, and criteria that have to be met for "livestock" to be used for consumption by people.

Mice: Vermin. Raid / Orkin / Many other companies make a fortune selling people products to destroy and eliminate vermin.

Boas, as it has been stated a number of times, I believe, are NOT indiginous to Arizona. They are not meant to be found in the wild anywhere near there. Survival? Natural occurance? If the guy was to set the puppy loose in the jungles of Borneo maybe....

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 01:16 AM
The ramifications of setting a precedent that would allow for dogs to be considered livestock, and proper to use for "feed" would allow for German Shephard to show up on McDonalds' menu... "Free to good home/ or for use in feeding your pet snake!" adds in the newspaper? ... Its all well and good to state things objectively, but nobody really looks at the broad spectrum....


The main reason we don't eat dog is they taste like crap.


And I've countered them.

Not very well....





But we don't know with this one, though, do we? Plus, if he had a girlfriend, couldn't she get the food?


Any more than we know he could just give the snake away. His girlfriend is terrified of snakes and mice.



Mice: Vermin. Raid / Orkin / Many other companies make a fortune selling people products to destroy and eliminate vermin.




A LOT of people keep rodents as pets...



I have read other comments...and can only add my two cents here but I think this is as much a morality issue as anything.

When I see a puppy... I can see emotion coming from it. Dogs and Cats are traditionally suited to Humans because we have been born with them and they have been born with us. We have that cross species bond and allegiance to one another.

Rats are rats... mice are mice. They live small lives and are bred specifically for the purpose of being food for other organisms.

I just somehow can't get over the fact that he coated the puppy in oil to feed to the snake... I can understand people's arguments of what makes one species better than another...but we have to look at this as higher and lower beings. If he had done this with a Human child, he would be classed as a murderer...he was an accessory to the child's death. Because Cats and Dogs are so closely linked with our species... this is why there are laws protecting them.

But I think, who was it.... Dawa on the first page made a good point that we have to look at intent as well. If he was responsible for the snake being malnourished then he still did harm to that snake... as well as the puppy.

Puppies also cost more becasue they are valued more... rats are not.

This seems key here as well, I don't think of ANY animals as high or low, I just think of them as animals. To me , morally, feeding the snake a puppy was no different than feeding it a rat.

A human / = / to any animal , to me. However ANY Animal = Any other animal to me, morally.

This is one of the key reasons I don't keep pets, I don't feel a connection to the LB's and certainly don't want to have to look after them.

I love my children and would die for them. I see animals as just pests, food and/or possibly dangerous.

Catiana
June 15th, 2007, 01:17 AM
I have read other comments...and can only add my two cents here but I think this is as much a morality issue as anything.

When I see a puppy... I can see emotion coming from it. Dogs and Cats are traditionally suited to Humans because we have been born with them and they have been born with us. We have that cross species bond and allegiance to one another.

Rats are rats... mice are mice. They live small lives and are bred specifically for the purpose of being food for other organisms.

I just somehow can't get over the fact that he coated the puppy in oil to feed to the snake... I can understand people's arguments of what makes one species better than another...but we have to look at this as higher and lower beings. If he had done this with a Human child, he would be classed as a murderer...he was an accessory to the child's death. Because Cats and Dogs are so closely linked with our species... this is why there are laws protecting them.

But I think, who was it.... Dawa on the first page made a good point that we have to look at intent as well. If he was responsible for the snake being malnourished then he still did harm to that snake... as well as the puppy.

Puppies also cost more becasue they are valued more... rats are not.


I agree.

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 01:23 AM
Not very well....

Your opinion only.


Any more than we know he could just give the snake away. His girlfriend is terrified of snakes and mice.

Giving a snake away is easier than knowing if he only eats live animals (or just puppies). No, she's not. If she was, why doesn't she leave him?

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 01:25 AM
(1) Your opinion only.



(2) Giving a snake away is easier than knowing if he only eats live animals (or just puppies). No, she's not. If she was, why doesn't she leave him?

(1) My opinion's as good as yours in this instance.

(2) If we're going to be hypothetical why not? Do you know she wasn't?

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 01:26 AM
The main reason we don't eat dog is they taste like crap.

AND, as Tobias pointed out, there has always been a "bond" that has been considered in europen based, and what could be considered native american faith systems. The dog is "man's best friend"... old spinsters are famous for being "cat ladies" ... but when have you ever heard of a person who had a special bond with house mice??? And no, we are not talking the movie "Ben" or the subsequent Micheal Jackson song....


Horses. How about them as well? Why the HUGE outcry when it was found that horse meat was supposedly showing up in Burger King or McDonalds meat supply? Because people have always associated horses with being companions. With being there to "help"... in RURAL Vietnam or Cambodia... the Ox is the workhorse, the families livelyhood... of COURSE it is easier to think of a dog as food, because they haven't got the same value. Eat the dog, the local wildlife wont be as scared to come eat the rice... eat the ox, the families ability to work the rice paddies is drastically cut.

We are talking in terms of America, and American sensibilities and moral standards. We are talking about a guy setting up an interesting little show for two local teens. Haw haw, lets freak some kids out and see if they puke when they hear the puppy screaming when all of its bones are broken..... You can advocate it. You can support it. You can even decise it would be funny to feed a kitten to YOUR favorite snake.... but at the end of the day, the legal system is going to frown upon you, and you will have to face the consequences. Right or wrong, that is the law, and that is what this guy has to deal with. End of story.

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 01:29 AM
Cows are still animals being kept alive till killed and eaten. Thats not wild behavior at all.

Why is it ok for us to cage and kill livestock?

Why is ok to feed the snake a mouse and not a dog?
Whats the difference, our preference for whats better liked?
Mice have been with man for ages, just like dogs.
We have used them in laboratories for our benefit and still are. Dogs have been used for our benefit and still are.
We have turned mice into pets. We have turned canine into pets.
Whats the difference between a dog and mouse, other than human preference?

Philosophia
June 15th, 2007, 01:30 AM
(1) My opinion's as good as yours in this instance.

Never said it wasn't.


(2) If we're going to be hypothetical why not? Do you know she wasn't?

If she is with him, in his house with his pet snake in a fairly big tank, then she would've had to have some sort of tolerance for the snake.

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 01:31 AM
AND, as Tobias pointed out, there has always been a "bond" that has been considered in europen based, and what could be considered native american faith systems. The dog is "man's best friend"... old spinsters are famous for being "cat ladies" ... but when have you ever heard of a person who had a special bond with house mice??? And no, we are not talking the movie "Ben" or the subsequent Micheal Jackson song....


Horses. How about them as well? Why the HUGE outcry when it was found that horse meat was supposedly showing up in Burger King or McDonalds meat supply? Because people have always associated horses with being companions. With being there to "help"... in RURAL Vietnam or Cambodia... the Ox is the workhorse, the families livelyhood... of COURSE it is easier to think of a dog as food, because they haven't got the same value. Eat the dog, the local wildlife wont be as scared to come eat the rice... eat the ox, the families ability to work the rice paddies is drastically cut.

We are talking in terms of America, and American sensibilities and moral standards. We are talking about a guy setting up an interesting little show for two local teens. Haw haw, lets freak some kids out and see if they puke when they hear the puppy screaming when all of its bones are broken..... You can advocate it. You can support it. You can even decise it would be funny to feed a kitten to YOUR favorite snake.... but at the end of the day, the legal system is going to frown upon you, and you will have to face the consequences. Right or wrong, that is the law, and that is what this guy has to deal with. End of story.



American of course being the standard for morality and common sense. I didn't realize you posted from your might steed....


END OF CHAPTER, turn the page and flip tape over to side B. Press play now.


(It's like a PETA meeting in here...)

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 01:35 AM
AND, as Tobias pointed out, there has always been a "bond" that has been considered in europen based, and what could be considered native american faith systems. The dog is "man's best friend"... old spinsters are famous for being "cat ladies" ... but when have you ever heard of a person who had a special bond with house mice??? And no, we are not talking the movie "Ben" or the subsequent Micheal Jackson song....


Horses. How about them as well? Why the HUGE outcry when it was found that horse meat was supposedly showing up in Burger King or McDonalds meat supply? Because people have always associated horses with being companions. With being there to "help"... in RURAL Vietnam or Cambodia... the Ox is the workhorse, the families livelyhood... of COURSE it is easier to think of a dog as food, because they haven't got the same value. Eat the dog, the local wildlife wont be as scared to come eat the rice... eat the ox, the families ability to work the rice paddies is drastically cut.

We are talking in terms of America, and American sensibilities and moral standards. We are talking about a guy setting up an interesting little show for two local teens. Haw haw, lets freak some kids out and see if they puke when they hear the puppy screaming when all of its bones are broken..... You can advocate it. You can support it. You can even decise it would be funny to feed a kitten to YOUR favorite snake.... but at the end of the day, the legal system is going to frown upon you, and you will have to face the consequences. Right or wrong, that is the law, and that is what this guy has to deal with. End of story.
There was a time Americans ate horses, their own horses. Sometimes it was when a horse went down and had to be shot. That was still meat. And in times of hardship, it was meat.

Its only now with all the animal rights activity that the horse eating and not the killing is being stopped, even though the US is still at present slaughtering horses everyday and selling the meat overseas! So much for morals.
Plus human morals are not other species morals.

Sometimes I think people are trying to turn animals into people.

The article didnt say he entertained the teenagers with this, did it?
I thought it just said some teens watched. I had teenagers when I had snakes and they watched.
I fed rats and domestic birds to my snakes.

Willow Rosette
June 15th, 2007, 01:36 AM
We are talking in terms of America, and American sensibilities and moral standards. We are talking about a guy setting up an interesting little show for two local teens. Haw haw, lets freak some kids out and see if they puke when they hear the puppy screaming when all of its bones are broken..... You can advocate it. You can support it. You can even decise it would be funny to feed a kitten to YOUR favorite snake.... but at the end of the day, the legal system is going to frown upon you, and you will have to face the consequences. Right or wrong, that is the law, and that is what this guy has to deal with. End of story.

I think that is the key right there. We dont know if he did this for the reasons Wolf O Volos has stated or because he had a starving snake to feed.

If he did it for the shits and giggles of watching an innocent animal be squeezed to death then yes he should pay for it. BUT if he did this cause he couldnt afford food and he felt this was his only option, then he was doing what he felt was best.

Im kinda leaning towards the first option. For one he had an audience to "watch" and for another the g/f supposedly threated the teens if they told.

BenSt
June 15th, 2007, 01:39 AM
Cows are still animals being kept alive till killed and eaten. Thats not wild behavior at all.

Why is it ok for us to cage and kill livestock?

Why is ok to feed the snake a mouse and not a dog?
Whats the difference, our preference for whats better liked?
Mice have been with man for ages, just like dogs.
We have used them in laboratories for our benefit and still are. Dogs have been used for our benefit and still are.
We have turned mice into pets. We have turned canine into pets.
Whats the difference between a dog and mouse, other than human preference?

The difference is that we have control...

In that situation that man had control...and he used that control irresponsibly. I mean unfortunatly or fortunatly depending how you look at it...in our made environments we are Gods over these creatures. We have pwoer over them...and western society and culture favours the Dog and Cat over the mouse.

Mice who are pets...if they die the feelings are still there...but we dont have a natural feeling towards mice. Well, we do actually... we are afraid. With Dogs... most of our natural impulses are feeling secure. When I see a sheepdog running about...I feel completly safe. That is our control and our preference coming in...based on our historical interactions with these creatures.

THAT is the difference.

You do raise good points though Shanti, and as an animal lover with Multiple creatures living around you you have a unique view. But Im talking strictly about the biassed shared view of pets and what our preference is. We can argue the facts until we're blue in the face... whether its right, whether or not our biass towards these creatures is right...but regardless he broke the law. And also... he did it ina horrible way.

Theres a huge debate out there as to whether or not Animals can feel emotional pain the same way Humans do. Depending on your view on this topic, it will greatly affect your viewpoint on this issue I think. neither is right or wrong because theres no way of knowing if animals feel the same way we do. But Dpgs are very social creatures...they naturally are pack animals with similar social structures as us. They appear to be more Human to us, emotionally speaking, because they can show us the same amount of love back.

Mice can not give love the same way a Dog can...if you walk into a room and a dog jumps up at you and starts licking your face you have an emotional response back. Some rabbits can act this way too...

generally speaking though Human biass is based on what is like or similar to us...and dogs are viewed in the western euro, middle eastern and american sense as being like us emotionally...

...generally speaking. I dont know if a sad looking hound with the big droopy eyes and drooling all over the place necessarily feels anything but being emo, but thats their decision :D.

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 01:40 AM
Cows are still animals being kept alive till killed and eaten. Thats not wild behavior at all.

Why is it ok for us to cage and kill livestock?

Why is ok to feed the snake a mouse and not a dog?
Whats the difference, our preference for whats better liked?
Mice have been with man for ages, just like dogs.
We have used them in laboratories for our benefit and still are. Dogs have been used for our benefit and still are.
We have turned mice into pets. We have turned canine into pets.
Whats the difference between a dog and mouse, other than human preference?

All good questions. And all questions *I* have nothing at all to do with.

Unless you are marching upon capital hill, with a bill that proclaims ALL animals should be considered livestock, and you HONESTLY believe it will pass POPULAR vote... then by all means, decry the legal system, and complain that a guy gets 90 days for cruelly turning a puppy into a crushed, whimpering, defenseless snack for his ill cared for snake.... I have been threatened myself with more than 90 days because I told a judge to piss off when he said 54% of my check wasnt adequate support for a greedy mother who got pissed off when she couldnt afford premium cigarettes anymore... but I didnt see pickets and outcry about the injustice of 180 day jail sentances then....

What this guy did was cruel. Reguardless of the natural order, reguardless of "Nature would dictate a snake eat a puppy", and reguardless of humans taste for meat... This guy took it upon himself to freak out a few teens by showing them what a snake could do to a puppy. I highly doubt he was taking the same "moral high ground" as you are defending him with when he was laughing at the sound of the puppy's bones snapping, do you?

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 01:41 AM
Mice can not give love the same way a Dog can...if you walk into a room and a dog jumps up at you and starts licking your face you have an emotional response back. Some rabbits can act this way too....

Yeah, disgust and revulsion. Hell, I eat rabbits.

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 01:44 AM
We probably wont ever know the story behind the story, but I just hope whatever happens has a good outcome overall. Whats done is done.

BenSt
June 15th, 2007, 01:45 AM
Yeah, disgust and revulsion. Hell, I eat rabbits.

I did say SOME...I dont think the pieces of floating rabbit in my rabbit stew can feel love...but I sure love it. Funny story though my dad used to have a HUGE giant rabbit/hare mix back in england who was a monster. it was huge it looked like a kangaroo! But that thing came in everyday, hopped on my dads lap and just sat there. if our bigger dog came near my dad...the rabbit would defend. it was very loyal to my dad... lol. Cute thing really.

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 01:47 AM
The difference is that we have control...

In that situation that man had control...and he used that control irresponsibly. I mean unfortunatly or fortunatly depending how you look at it...in our made environments we are Gods over these creatures. We have pwoer over them...and western society and culture favours the Dog and Cat over the mouse.

Mice who are pets...if they die the feelings are still there...but we dont have a natural feeling towards mice. Well, we do actually... we are afraid. With Dogs... most of our natural impulses are feeling secure. When I see a sheepdog running about...I feel completly safe. That is our control and our preference coming in...based on our historical interactions with these creatures.

THAT is the difference.

You do raise good points though Shanti, and as an animal lover with Multiple creatures living around you you have a unique view. But Im talking strictly about the biassed shared view of pets and what our preference is. We can argue the facts until we're blue in the face... whether its right, whether or not our biass towards these creatures is right...but regardless he broke the law. And also... he did it ina horrible way.

Theres a huge debate out there as to whether or not Animals can feel emotional pain the same way Humans do. Depending on your view on this topic, it will greatly affect your viewpoint on this issue I think. neither is right or wrong because theres no way of knowing if animals feel the same way we do. But Dpgs are very social creatures...they naturally are pack animals with similar social structures as us. They appear to be more Human to us, emotionally speaking, because they can show us the same amount of love back.

Mice can not give love the same way a Dog can...if you walk into a room and a dog jumps up at you and starts licking your face you have an emotional response back. Some rabbits can act this way too...

generally speaking though Human biass is based on what is like or similar to us...and dogs are viewed in the western euro, middle eastern and american sense as being like us emotionally...

...generally speaking. I dont know if a sad looking hound with the big droopy eyes and drooling all over the place necessarily feels anything but being emo, but thats their decision :D.
A very nice post. I like the way you presented your perspective. :)
Good reading! :D

Catiana
June 15th, 2007, 01:48 AM
I'm not sure if the articles stated it, but it was the two 15 year boys that turned him in, and whom his girlfriend threatend,

they were obviously disturbed by what they saw and heard.

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 01:49 AM
American of course being the standard for morality and common sense. I didn't realize you posted from your might steed....


END OF CHAPTER, turn the page and flip tape over to side B. Press play now.


(It's like a PETA meeting in here...)

Fairy... You have a talent for turning things into drama. And I do think that stirring the pot is fun for you. BUT at the end of the day, I Actually APPRECIATE you bringing up all these good counter points, because it keeps the conversation going, and also because YOUR oppinion is just as valid as anyone else's. True story.

But, please refrain from twisting things to suit you. I am not on a "mighty steed", nor am I shoving "American Morals" down the throat of the rest of the world. I am simply stating the American values, and laws, because, in fact... this case takes place IN AMERICA... *gasp* Sorry if that may have slipped your attention there, big guy.

And PETA... not a great fan of theirs. What I AM a fan of, is common sense, and considering that *IF* we are the higher species on this planet, we have a responsibility, when we try to manipulate nature to our will, to take responsibility for our actions. This snake did not crawl its way to Arizona. This Puppy was not born in the jungles of Borneo. A man, took the responsibility of "natural selection/ circle of life" into his own hands, forced a one sided confrontation with an animal that is beloved by MOST of the people who create and enforce the laws, and a snake that he was not taking the proper care of in the first place...

Side B ok so far?

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 01:54 AM
Fairy... You have a talent for turning things into drama. And I do think that stirring the pot is fun for you. BUT at the end of the day, I Actually APPRECIATE you bringing up all these good counter points, because it keeps the conversation going, and also because YOUR oppinion is just as valid as anyone else's. True story.

But, please refrain from twisting things to suit you. I am not on a "mighty steed", nor am I shoving "American Morals" down the throat of the rest of the world. I am simply stating the American values, and laws, because, in fact... this case takes place IN AMERICA... *gasp* Sorry if that may have slipped your attention there, big guy.

And PETA... not a great fan of theirs. What I AM a fan of, is common sense, and considering that *IF* we are the higher species on this planet, we have a responsibility, when we try to manipulate nature to our will, to take responsibility for our actions. This snake did not crawl its way to Arizona. This Puppy was not born in the jungles of Borneo. A man, took the responsibility of "natural selection/ circle of life" into his own hands, forced a one sided confrontation with an animal that is beloved by MOST of the people who create and enforce the laws, and a snake that he was not taking the proper care of in the first place...

Side B ok so far?


I can't hear it from way up there.

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 01:57 AM
I can't hear it from way up there.

Fair enough. I will take that to mean you have nothing further to say, in reguards to my oppinion, and I will refrain from bringing yours into this debate, as I am not a fan of personal attacks.

Work for you?

Fairy_Princess
June 15th, 2007, 02:01 AM
Fair enough. I will take that to mean you have nothing further to say, in reguards to my oppinion, and I will refrain from bringing yours into this debate, as I am not a fan of personal attacks.

Work for you?


What personal attack? Your opinion subscribes to a "higher morality" than I can espouse myself to. The only thing I think this idiot did wrong was get caught.

Wolf O Volos
June 15th, 2007, 02:07 AM
There was a time Americans ate horses, their own horses. Sometimes it was when a horse went down and had to be shot. That was still meat. And in times of hardship, it was meat.

Its only now with all the animal rights activity that the horse eating and not the killing is being stopped, even though the US is still at present slaughtering horses everyday and selling the meat overseas! So much for morals.
Plus human morals are not other species morals.

Sometimes I think people are trying to turn animals into people.

Sorry, Shanti, I did not ignore your points. It was not intentional that I didnt get to it right away, hope you didnt take it as me ignoring you.

Absolutely true. Americans DID have a wierd relationship with their horses.... but prior to that time, and currently, a majority of people find it worng to eat their horses.

"Dang horse lost the Preakness... let's turn it into Burgers!" is not something I think would be viewed as correct thinking nowadays. Maybe I am incorrect for making that assumption.

And the slaughter and sales of horse meat to countries that actually DO like the idea of Horseburgers... I personally disagree with it myself. But that is the country we live in. Serve the people what they want, as long as they are paying for it. *sigh* I agree it is a sad commentary on the morality of things.

But my personal feelings aside, and yours... what we are talking about here, is the legal ramifications of what this fellow did, in the eyes of the Arizona justice system. The laws are there for a reason, whatever that reason may be, and until they change, he has to face the ramifications of the act, no, actually Multiple acts, he carried out that break these laws....




Edit to Add: The "humanization" of animals... or is it more that people are taking it upon themselves to place value on the reactions they get from the attention and affection shown to them FROM animals who are not blessed with morality as we are. When my Ferretts get excited and run around their pen because they are "happy" to see me, and immediately roll over for a good scratch of their bellies... is that me humanizing them, or is that me understanding that they get as much enjoyment out of my attention, as I do from theirs?

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 02:07 AM
I think this has been an enjoyable debate.
Lots of perspectives and possibles.

But seriously, all that matters to me is all animals, no matter what species, thats being kept by a human, be it for food or companionship, or for working, all of them deserve the best life, healthy and welled cared for while the are alive with us.

Any human that cant respect the animal/s that are keeping with good care should not be allowed an animal. By having an animal/s in our care we are making them dependent on us for every single thing they need in their existence. We owe it to them , by taking them into our custody, to care for them well.

This is where the law can be helpful if it follows common sence. A dog doesn't need a fancy bed, but it does need a balanced diet, fresh, clean water and appropriate shelter and exercise. Attention and affection is a plus. :)
If there is at least a 'good' on going attempt to provide ok if all are well, but when the intent is not there, the law should step in. If this guy did do an animal wrong by not caring for it while alive, then tuff buckets he got busted.
To me its not death that matters, its what done while its alive.

My son caught one of the zillion spiders in our barn. He has it in a appropriate cage. I am on him constantly making sure he properly cares for it while he shares with it as he loves watching and studying insects and arthropods. Its just one of a countless supply, but none the less, while he has it in his custody, its a duty he took on to do right by it.
If he tires of it he has only one option here, to put it back in the barn where he got it from since other than study, it serves no purpose for us except to do what it does best, catch those pesty bugs!! LOL

Shanti
June 15th, 2007, 02:11 AM
Sorry, Shanti, I did not ignore your points. It was not intentional that I didnt get to it right away, hope you didnt take it as me ignoring you.

Absolutely true. Americans DID have a wierd relationship with their horses.... but prior to that time, and currently, a majority of people find it worng to eat their horses.

"Dang horse lost the Preakness... let's turn it into Burgers!" is not something I think would be viewed as correct thinking nowadays. Maybe I am incorrect for making that assumption.

And the slaughter and sales of horse meat to countries that actually DO like the idea of Horseburgers... I personally disagree with it myself. But that is the country we live in. Serve the people what they want, as long as they are paying for it. *sigh* I agree it is a sad commentary on the morality of things.

But my personal feelings aside, and yours... what we are talking about here, is the legal ramifications of what this fellow did, in the eyes of the Arizona justice system. The laws are there for a reason, whatever that reason may be, and until they change, he has to face the ramifications of the act, no, actually Multiple acts, he carried out that break these laws....This is true. In the eyes of the law he did wrong as he pleaded so.

As you said we have livestock laws too. I raise my own and dont sell anything but even though its our own food, I have laws to follow. I follow them, even if I disagree with them because one, Its foolish not to and two, its the way it is.
I'd rather obey the laws than end up in the news!! LOL

Oh And I didnt think you were ignoring me. :)