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Toki Wartooth
June 21st, 2007, 05:16 AM
Warning: This is probably going to turn novel-length. I'll try to be as to-the-point as I possibly can.

For much of my life, I've spent time searching and researching. I've probably done that more often than I have actually practicing or believing.

It started when I was born. My mother tried to raise me in her faith, Christianity (specifically Catholicism), but I found I could not agree with several basic beliefs, and much of it did not feel right to me. I also never felt any presence of God, and so little had actual meaning to me. So I left, and I suppose I was a very apathetic agnostic at that point.

After talking more with my father, I adopted his beliefs, but it wasn't much. All I really had was belief in reincarnation and karma. A little while later, as I read some, I felt the pantheist view also made sense. But, as more time passed, I somehow fell out of that. I went into another agnostic journey.

Feeling compelled to search for something, I stumbled upon existentialism. I did a lot of reading in that, and I became much more solidified in my beliefs after discovering and researching Sartre. I was quite the existentialist for a while, until I again slipped; but, instead of agnosticism, I was an atheist.

I've off and on had a fascination with paganism, and I oddly (being an atheist, still) started to read about paganism, mostly on the Internet. I'm not sure how one goes from being an atheist to a [first soft, later hard] polytheist, but that eventually happened. (Remnants of my pantheism?) I was naturally attracted to aspects of Roman Reconstruction (though I did not consider myself a follower of that specific path--I claimed to be eclectic, which I'm sure was the proper term) as I've had several years' interest in Latin and Roman everything. I was actually pretty happy during this period. Everything was my own. I had no beliefs I disagreed with because my path was built and maintained by me. I had no one to tell me to do this or not do that. My gods were different from the God I was taught to fear, worship, do things for, respect, and love.

So, why did I not stay that way?

Well, I suppose in the passage of time, I somehow got stung with my agnosticism again. I never seem to leave agnosticism for very long before returning to it. At this point, it's become stronger than it ever has, and that may or may not be part of my problem. See, I'm searching again for something, but I honestly don't know what. I sometimes miss my pagan path, but I don't know what the root of it is. Do I miss the "control"? Do I miss the personalization? Do I miss the comfort of those gods?

Unfortunately, I often don't think returning is an option. I've been the sort of agnostic that does not believe a deity's existence can be either proven or disproven; and, I'd wait for evidence--if I ever got any. On top of that, I'm not so sure humans can even "comprehend" or "know" a deity anyway. In addition to that sort of belief (or lack thereof), I don't believe in either reincarnation or karma. I don't believe in afterlife. I don't believe in divination. I'm not sure I'd believe in magic either. With all this, what am I left with? Not much, I wager.

My greatest problem may be my own rationality. A lot of the things I just mentioned simply do not make sense to me. I don't want to believe in something that doesn't have a strong rationale behind it. Even if a spiritual path is supposed to make one happy and fulfilled and whatnot, and even if I could be happy in it for a while, as soon as I would think about illogical it is, I would immediately become unhappy. I would not want to be living what my mind figured to be a lie, or at least highly improbable.

As I said, I'm not entirely sure what I'm actually seeking. I just wish I'd find it. I get tired of being so restless all the time.

daphnerose
June 21st, 2007, 12:23 PM
You've spent so much time looking to external sources. Have you spent much time looking inside yourself?

Windsmith
June 21st, 2007, 12:51 PM
Mercedes,

I invite you to spend some time poking around in the Pantheist (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=285) and Non-Theist (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=379) sub-forums in the path sections. Many people there have experienced/are experiencing situations similar to yours, and are finding ways to combine Pagan practices with agnostic or atheistic beliefs. Sometimes it's difficult, but when we get it right, both our spiritual and rational sides purr with contentment.

Toki Wartooth
June 21st, 2007, 06:14 PM
You've spent so much time looking to external sources. Have you spent much time looking inside yourself?

How would you suggest I do that? By meditation?


Mercedes,

I invite you to spend some time poking around in the Pantheist (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=285) and Non-Theist (http://www.mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=379) sub-forums in the path sections. Many people there have experienced/are experiencing situations similar to yours, and are finding ways to combine Pagan practices with agnostic or atheistic beliefs. Sometimes it's difficult, but when we get it right, both our spiritual and rational sides purr with contentment.

I've actually read through them both, but I'll probably reread and keep up to date on the posts there. The Non-Theist one is interesting especially.

daphnerose
June 21st, 2007, 07:38 PM
Meditation is a wonderful way to do it. I don't know what the depth of your skill is, but there are lots of great ways. Do you have any metaphysical stores nearbye? Sometimes there are meditation classes offered, if thats feasable. If not on your own is great too. Whats your experience with it?
daphne

Agaliha
June 21st, 2007, 07:57 PM
We have a lot in common that's for sure! You descibed basically my problem as well. Amlost exactly, though not quite. I'm trying to spend more time looking within, paying attention to things around me and feel. Not think too much about. I do that way too much, heh. Like you said, I've spent more time seeking, researching (so many religions and pantheons and beliefs) and thinking of things more than practicing and feeling my path. I had my brief time when I was more theistic (it was a happy time with my gods), but that crumbled when my agnosticism kicked in. The doubt. I've been looking for that missing something all this time. I'm trying to let things happen as they happen and not force anything. I meditate, pay attention to sychronicities and things, look to nature and sometimes just do something spiritual without thinking so much about it. It's sort of been helping.

Toki Wartooth
June 22nd, 2007, 05:45 PM
Meditation is a wonderful way to do it. I don't know what the depth of your skill is, but there are lots of great ways. Do you have any metaphysical stores nearbye? Sometimes there are meditation classes offered, if thats feasable. If not on your own is great too. Whats your experience with it?
daphne

No, I'm afraid we don't; however, I spent a lot of my time, when I was a pagan for that year, meditating, and I did different techniques, mainly from Penczak. I also, at one point, took martial arts from a master and learned meditation and breathing techniques from him. I haven't really been doing much meditation, save to curb stress, so perhaps I ought to start it up again.

Even so, doing it, what am I suppose to expect? Some answer to dawn on me? Something / one to come to me? What am I looking out for?

And, while I'm asking questions, this isn't the only way, is it? Would you advise seeking in dreams and everyday occurrences, too?

Those are the only "ways" that come into my mind. But, Daphne, if you'd like to suggest anything else, I'm all ears (er, eyes).

Agaliha, I'm not surprised. I've seen your posts in the Nontheist subforum (or Pantheist? Perhaps both!). :) In any case, I feel that we can relate. Do you mind explaining and providing examples for when you say you "look to nature and sometimes just do something spiritual without thinking so much about it"?

Windsmith
June 22nd, 2007, 05:57 PM
Even so, doing it, what am I suppose to expect? Some answer to dawn on me? Something / one to come to me? What am I looking out for?I think that's something you'll have to discover for yourself. If we say, "Expect an answer," and you get a visitation instead, you might miss it because you're focusing so hard on the answer that should be coming. Likewise, if we tell you to expect someone or something to come to you, and it doesn't, you might call the experience a waste of time, when really something happened that you just didn't expect or notice.

Plus, who are we to tell you how someone or something would come to you, if they did? Some people experience a feeling of warmth, protection, and love. Others see a vision of a goddess, god, or spirit guide. Some people hear a voice. Others feel a touch on their shoulder. And some of us have never felt a danged thing or experienced a visitation from anybody.

If you want to try meditation (and it ain't fer everybody), I encourage you to go in with as few expectations and preconceived ideas about what constitutes a "successful" session as possible. I know it's hard, but, for me, there's no "point" to meditating, no end result I'm shooting for. I'm just trying to be present, in my body, in my mind, and in my surroundings. That's challenge enough to keep pesky ideas of what "ought to" happen well away!

Good luck.

daphnerose
June 22nd, 2007, 08:52 PM
And, while I'm asking questions, this isn't the only way, is it? Would you advise seeking in dreams and everyday occurrences, too?

Those are the only "ways" that come into my mind. But, Daphne, if you'd like to suggest anything else, I'm all ears (er, eyes)
Eep my first quote...hope I get it right. Well first of all, penzack has great guided meditations. I don't usually go for guided, but he is good.
You know, what it really boils down to is just getting to know you! Take walks outdoors, spend time with yourself. You don't have to meditate if you don't need, you just have to spend time with yourself and listen.
I have a meditation that I do called red cord I learned from a fairy trad teacher. It is highly effective. Its pretty detailed, and I honestly just don't have time right now to type it all out, but if you are interested on monday I can give you the details. Its basically connecting to the core of the earth with a red cord and traveling down the cord.
I really do think you just need to find ways to quite your mind. Listen to the stillness.
If you want to chat more we can.
hugs
daphne

Toki Wartooth
June 24th, 2007, 11:38 AM
So, Windsmith, if I do receive something / one, I'm just going to know? Is that what you're basically saying?

I suppose that isn't a bad idea at all. Oddly, I've been so wrapped up in myself and my life that I haven't actually gotten to sit down and know myself. (When I was pagan, "know thyself" was such a huge part of my spiritual being. Apollo was a patron of mine, and I took his Delphic sayings to heart.) I'll see what I can do. Thanks for the idea.

Windsmith
June 25th, 2007, 11:56 AM
So, Windsmith, if I do receive something / one, I'm just going to know? Is that what you're basically saying?OK - full disclosure time. I'm a Naturalistic Pantheist. I don't believe in deities or supernatural entities and forces. What I believe for myself is that everything / one I "receive" is a product of my own subconscious mind. That doesn't make it any less real or meaningful; in fact, for me it becomes even more real and meaningful, because my own mind is saying, "Hey. Pay attention to this." So for me, all meditation is a process of stilling my conscious mind as much as I can and letting the hidden stuff bubble up however it needs to. If this is in words and messages, so be it. It it's in imagery, that's fine, too. The key is that I don't go in with any expectations of what will happen to me.

So it may not be as easy as saying, "If it happens to you, you'll know." If it happens to you, you might know. Or you might be hopelessly confused, wondering whether (depending on your beliefs about such things) you really received a visitation or an answer or a sign or whether you made it all up in your head (although, like I said, sometimes that's an answer in itself). You'll have to sift through the information and images you experience during meditation to figure out what relevance, if any, they have for you and what, if anything, you want to do with them. Being open to whatever's going to happen, that's the essential part. Because something will happen to you - and when it does, whatever it is, you'll definitely know it.

Toki Wartooth
June 25th, 2007, 05:03 PM
Okay, that's the kind of thing I wanted to hear: clarification. I understand what you mean now.

I may or may not have received "signs." I've been contemplating about them. I'll probably do some more. I'm also going to take some time out and figure out what I believe, disbelieve, and what I'm not sure of. I have to re-know myself all over again, so to speak.

Thanks for the help.

Credulous Warlock
July 12th, 2007, 07:18 PM
*Deleted by Kaylara*Go spam your own website with this crap.