Question for Hellenic Pagans....

[David19]

On a Roman Pagan forum I'm on, I've seen this book recommended, 'The Ancient City: A Study on Religion, Laws, and Institutions of Greece and Rome' by Numa Denis Fustel De Coulanges (http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-City-Religion-Institutions-Greece/dp/0801823048/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-5291300-0337464?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182528373&sr=1-2), and one person says the author states:


The author holds that each community's gods were distinct from those of other communities, e.g., the Zeus of Athens and the Zeus of Corinth were two completely different entities, but did share attributes.

And that, when a city fell, it was because the god(s) had abandoned it, which seems to similar to something I've read about involving ancient Rome, where when the Romans were fighting an enemy, they would pray to their enemies god(s) and set up temples in Rome to that god or gods, thereby removing the spiritual and supernatural support that god(s) gave to the enemy.

I've never heard this before, but I think it's kind of interesting, but I'm not too sure if it's true, is this how the ancient Greeks, commonly, believed and in your personal opinions, do you think there's more than one Zeus, etc. I know that in ancient Greek households, there was a Zeus of the courtyard or something, as well as an Apollo and an Hecate that guarded the house (I think, although I'm probably mixing things up), but would these be the same deities as the Olympian Zeus, or different (or for that matter, would the household Apollo be the same as the Olympian Apollo, etc).

Thanks for any help you can give me, and I hope this did make some kind of sense.

[Fiamma]

Hmmm...I thihk that it's *possible* that there may be more than one Zeus, more than one Apollo, more than one Dionysus, etc...though I don't think I believe that it extends so far as to say that theZeus worshipped in one city is a completely different god from every one of the Zeuses worshipped in every other city.

I do know that some scholars believe that the Delian Apollo (Apollo of Delos) and Pythian Apollo (Apollo of Delphi) are two different gods. I've read some of the evidence, and while it makes enough sense that it could be the case, I don't believe that it is. Admittedly though, the only additional information that I'm going on there is UPG. I've not heard of the "household Apollo" that you mention.

Many scholars also think that Dionysus is at least two different gods, Dionysus- son of Semele, and Dionysus- son of Persephone. I've also seen it broken down as Dionysus in the commonly-thought of form, and Dionysus Zagreus, the wild and savage hunter. Karl Kerenyi does a pretty good job of talking about this in the last chapter of Gods of the Greeks, and he has an entire (very dense) book devoted to Dionysus- Dionysus: Archetypal Image of Indestructable Life)

I lean a lot more towards actually believing that Dionysus is several deities rolled into one than I do to Apollo. Both are far more complicated than typically thought of in modern times but there is far more conflict and turbulence surrounding Dionysus to suggest this. (Also, as I said, I'm partially going on UPG with Apollo. Actively worshipping- and closely studying- him for several years now has led me to that belief.

For further information, you might also want to try poking http://www.theoi.com and see what falls out. Theoi.com contains pages and pages and pages of information on each of the gods that is taken straight from ancient texts, and actually contains the full e-text of many of them. (for the not-so-major gods, the articles are shorter, ubt it basically depends on what ancient sources are available.)




On a Roman Pagan forum I'm on, I've seen this book recommended, 'The Ancient City: A Study on Religion, Laws, and Institutions of Greece and Rome' by Numa Denis Fustel De Coulanges (http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-City-Religion-Institutions-Greece/dp/0801823048/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-5291300-0337464?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182528373&sr=1-2), and one person says the author states:



And that, when a city fell, it was because the god(s) had abandoned it, which seems to similar to something I've read about involving ancient Rome, where when the Romans were fighting an enemy, they would pray to their enemies god(s) and set up temples in Rome to that god or gods, thereby removing the spiritual and supernatural support that god(s) gave to the enemy.

I've never heard this before, but I think it's kind of interesting, but I'm not too sure if it's true, is this how the ancient Greeks, commonly, believed and in your personal opinions, do you think there's more than one Zeus, etc. I know that in ancient Greek households, there was a Zeus of the courtyard or something, as well as an Apollo and an Hecate that guarded the house (I think, although I'm probably mixing things up), but would these be the same deities as the Olympian Zeus, or different (or for that matter, would the household Apollo be the same as the Olympian Apollo, etc).

Thanks for any help you can give me, and I hope this did make some kind of sense.

[Fiamma]

Also, I'm going to see about getting this moved on over to Gods & Goddesses, as well as your previous Norse & Celtic gods post.

[David19]

Thanks for the information, Fiamma, I'll try and check out 'Gods of the Greeks' (does it go into detail about each god?).

Also, about the household Apollo, I think I read it at Sacred-texts, it was in the book, 'Greek Popular Religion' by Martin P. Nilsson (http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/gpr/index.htm), specifically the chapter, 'The House and the Family' (http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/gpr/gpr08.htm):


they were asked whether they owned an Apollo Patroos and a Zeus Herkeios and where these sanctuaries were

I haven't read it all yet, but maybe I just took it out of context or something, I'm sure you probably know more about what Apollo Patroos is (whether he's a household god or an epiphet of the Olympian Apollo).

And, sorry, about not putting it in Gods & Goddesses, I just wasn't sure where to put it - Recons or Gods.

Thanks again for the help :).

[Athena-Nadine]

Moved. :)

[Fiamma]

Thanks for the information, Fiamma, I'll try and check out 'Gods of the Greeks' (does it go into detail about each god?).

Also, about the household Apollo, I think I read it at Sacred-texts, it was in the book, 'Greek Popular Religion' by Martin P. Nilsson (http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/gpr/index.htm), specifically the chapter, 'The House and the Family' (http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/gpr/gpr08.htm):



I haven't read it all yet, but maybe I just took it out of context or something, I'm sure you probably know more about what Apollo Patroos is (whether he's a household god or an epiphet of the Olympian Apollo).

And, sorry, about not putting it in Gods & Goddesses, I just wasn't sure where to put it - Recons or Gods.

Thanks again for the help :).


No need for apologies, it was perfectly approproate to the recons, but moreso here :-)

As for Apollo Patroos, I don't really know anhyitng about him...and amazingly, there are no references on Theoi.com, so....we jump to google-fu and some search engine gymnastics....

Apollo Patroos is cited here as being worshipped as the founder of the Ionian race:
http://www.greece-athens.com/page.php?page_id=255
just an image of a statue here form the same site...http://www.greece-athens.com/page.php?page_id=89


Here's one page of an article that you have to purchase to read the while thing...but a larcge chunk of this page is bibliographic source material if you're interested
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9114%28198804%2992%3A2%3C185%3ATTACOA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-9&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage


Nothing here points concretely to Apollo Patroos as a separate god...though nothing points concretely to him as an aspect of Apolo either, though held at gunpoint and forced to take a stab at it, I'd say aspect, not separate god.

If anyone else knows more about this, or David, if you do find out more, please by all means do let me know.

[David19]

No need for apologies, it was perfectly approproate to the recons, but moreso here :-)

As for Apollo Patroos, I don't really know anhyitng about him...and amazingly, there are no references on Theoi.com, so....we jump to google-fu and some search engine gymnastics....

Apollo Patroos is cited here as being worshipped as the founder of the Ionian race:
http://www.greece-athens.com/page.php?page_id=255
just an image of a statue here form the same site...http://www.greece-athens.com/page.php?page_id=89


Here's one page of an article that you have to purchase to read the while thing...but a larcge chunk of this page is bibliographic source material if you're interested
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9114%28198804%2992%3A2%3C185%3ATTACOA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-9&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out, and also the JSTOR article, I think I should be able to get access to the whole article through my university.



Nothing here points concretely to Apollo Patroos as a separate god...though nothing points concretely to him as an aspect of Apolo either, though held at gunpoint and forced to take a stab at it, I'd say aspect, not separate god.

If anyone else knows more about this, or David, if you do find out more, please by all means do let me know.

Thanks, I was curious when I read about Apollo Patroos, maybe if I can check the bibliography of the book on Sacred-texts, then I can see where he draws his info from.

BTW, I've got another question, was the Zeus Herkeios considered seperate from the Olympian Zeus or more an aspect of him, and also what other household deities did the ancient Greeks have, I know Hestia was very important (doesn't she get the first and last of every meal or something?), but were there other household gods that were important to them (I know the ancient Romans had them and were very important to them).

Also, just another quick question, but since you said Apollo Patroos is an aspect of Apollo, does this mean the Olympian gods could be in several places at once (like could Apollo be on Olympus, but also appear in each household at the same time, as Patroos?).

Thanks, and I hope that wasn't too many questions (and I really hope it made some kind of sense too!).

[Fiamma]

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out, and also the JSTOR article, I think I should be able to get access to the whole article through my university.




Thanks, I was curious when I read about Apollo Patroos, maybe if I can check the bibliography of the book on Sacred-texts, then I can see where he draws his info from.

BTW, I've got another question, was the Zeus Herkeios considered seperate from the Olympian Zeus or more an aspect of him, and also what other household deities did the ancient Greeks have, I know Hestia was very important (doesn't she get the first and last of every meal or something?), but were there other household gods that were important to them (I know the ancient Romans had them and were very important to them).

Also, just another quick question, but since you said Apollo Patroos is an aspect of Apollo, does this mean the Olympian gods could be in several places at once (like could Apollo be on Olympus, but also appear in each household at the same time, as Patroos?).

Thanks, and I hope that wasn't too many questions (and I really hope it made some kind of sense too!).


No problem...regarding Zeus, I'd have to do some research.

Hestia, yes...she is offered the first and last bit of each meal, and many Hellenic pagans today begin and end rituals with an offering to her.

I know of at least two variations of how this came to be- first of all, when she gave up her spot on Olympos for Dionysus, and the second when she refused marriage from both Poseidon and Apollo, in both cases, Zeus is said to have granted her the right to the first and last offering of every rite.

I really have no idea regarding the being in multiple places question...on one hand, they're not omnipresent. Perhaps as far as things like being the protextor, they have the ability to place protection on a home or a person or an object so that while they may not be right there at all times, their protection still stands? That makes sense to me...but I honestly don't know, and I don't know how the ancient folks saw it eithyer...and the gods don't seem to see fit to tell me, so...once again, if I come up with something better, I'll let you know :-P

[Fiamma]

Grazie!


Moved. :)

[Fiamma]

David:

I have found my copy of Gods of the Greeks, and the only mention of "Patroos" is in counting a number of the surnames of Zeus:


"He was often called Pater, "The Father", also Patroos, Phratrios, Philios, Xenios, and Hikesios, as the god of human communities, races, and fellowships, even including those of hosts and of strangers seeking protection.

-Kerenyi, Gods of the Greeks, p. 117

One other thing I've found...doesn't seem to be quite the same as "Patroos", but there is the very similar name of Patroios:


"Euphranor also wrought the Apollon surnamed Patroios (Paternal) in the temple hard by [the Painted Portico oin the marketplace of Athens]. And in front of the temple is one Apollon made by Leokhares; the other Apollo, called Alexikakos (Averter of evil), was made by Kalamis. They say that the god received this name because by an oracle from Delphoi he stayed the pestilence which afflicted the Athenians at the time of the Peloponnesian War." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 1.3.4

- http://www.theoi.com/Cult/ApollonCult.html


And in reference to Dionysus:



"Polyidos [mythical king of Megara] also built the sanctuary of Dionysos, and dedicated a wooden image that in our day is covered up except the face, which alone is exposed. By the side of it is a Satyros of Parian marble made by Praxiteles. This Dionysos they call Patroios (Paternal); but the image of another, that they surname Dasyllios, they say was dedicated by Eukhenor, son of Koiranos, son of Polyidos." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 1.43.5

- http://www.theoi.com/Cult/DionysosCult.html


There's also this in reference to Zeus:


PATROUS, PATROA (Patrôios, Patrôia), and in Latin, Patrii Dii, are, properly speaking, all the gods whose worship has been handed down in a nation or a family from the time of their fathers, whence in some instances they are the spirits of departed ancestors themselves. (Lucian, De Mort. Pereg. 36.) Zeus was thus theos patrôios at Athens (Paus. i. 3. § 3, 43. § 5), and among the Heracleidae, since the heroes of that race traced their origin to Zeus. (Apollod. ii. 8. § 4.)

-http://www.theoi.com/Cult/ZeusTitles.html#Cult

[David19]

Thanks for the info, Fiamma :).