Ageism in Pagan religions

[Sage Rainsong]

Hello MW,

Recently I have been remembering some experiences that I had when I was just starting out in Wicca (I'm not Wiccan anymore). I remember that there was an older man who slapped on a robe and made up all kinds of far out stories about himself. He got more respect than me even though I did know more than him. That's just one of the stories that i have. It seems that any older person who slaps on a robe and pentacle could call him/herself an elder while some in their early 20's has to prove themselves more even if that started learning at 12. I know tat this sounds like a bit of a rant but I am wondering if anyone has had similar experience with ageism in Paganism. If you haven't experienced it directly, did you notice this? Am I a paranoid weirdo (don't answer that) who is making all of this up? I'd love to hear your opinions.

[Xentor]

Age discrimination isn't particular to paganism. It's a property of your culture.

[Moira Naimh Keane]

I just turned 50 and I can tell you I've experienced more ageism on this end of the age line than I ever did when I was in my 20's. And that's within pagan circles. It's been a bit of an awakening...which can definitely happen at any age! I didn't expect it in this religion, though I did experience in a different religion when I was your age (just not as much).
Through the years I've realized others sell people short who are your age, and people my age, if they're of that mindset anyway. But it truly is their loss.
When I was in my 20s I had many wonderful older teachers.
But I came to this new path by way of an extremely well-read girl of 19. There are 17 year olds on this board who say incredibly profound things, and at least one 49 year old whose posts I always love reading.
It happens in all faiths and all walks of life. It can be frustrating to talk to someone and know they're not even listening to you because you're just a number.
Thank the PTB that I have been given sense in my life to surround myself with teachers of all ages that help me grow in new ways every day.
(Longwinded, sorry. It's just because I have felt it, too, recently...).

[Shanti]

I find that in all walks of life.
Heck at work an employee can be stupid as a nail but gets raises and recognition because they are older. A 20 something doing the same job is walked all over because even though they are better at the job and know more, they are just a kid and thus less worthy or something.

I never seen it in paganism because I practice alone, but it doesn't surprise me that there is some of this out there.

Just from everyday life I see that I am respected and heard a heck of a lot more than when I was younger saying and doing the same stuff!! LOL

[Snapdragon]

Not long after I became active in the Craft, I was invited to make a presentation at a monthly get-together of Wiccans in Seattle. The topic involved some work I had done in the past for a well-known public figure, so it "dated" me when I mentioned having done it. Now, feature this: I'm talking along, describing various things...and this woman in the audience blurts out, "You're old!"

What do you call that?

[Xentor]

Obnoxious.

[~Elise~]

Xentor is right--it is a prevalent thing in OUR culture here in the US

[Nocturna]

Yes, in the culture at large it seems you have to fall into a very narrow age range (roughly 30 to 40 ish) to be taken seriously. If you’re younger than that you’re a child who knows nothing and if you’re older you’re a geezer and everything you know must be outdated. :mad:

As for your example, I have noticed, especially online, a certain dismissive and sometimes even viciousness attitude towards teen practitioners by some. It’s really odd, since it seems a lot, perhaps a majority, of us started out as teens. I think it may have something to do with the stereotypes we deal with. One of the common stereotypes I see used to disparage Wicca in particular, and sometimes Paganism in general, is that it’s a religion made up of silly, giggly teenaged girls (once again, a prejudice from the culture at large). It seems like some people subconsciously think if we chase out the teens, you’ll have a dignified, adult religion. Well, no, actually you’ll just have a dead religion.

:rant:

[Snapdragon]

Interesting post, Nocturna, and it leads me to think about whether what appears as ageism might sometimes be (at least partly) something else. I don't know what your own impression of the Craft is, or how long you've been living in a witch way, but there are many of us who have the impression that a lot of not-very-serious and likely transient Wiccans have appeared in the past few years. This is a hard one, because of course it is a path available to anyone, and that is part of its appeal; Wicca is truly "the religion of the free," and that is the way it ought to be...must be. What this means as a practical matter, of course, is that it attracts the best, the worst, and everything in between...however you might view what's desirable and not.

It's partly the "fluffy bunny" thing, and partly it's the realization that we live in a culture (in the US) that is image- and sensation-driven. Witches and the Craft have become somewhat appealing due largely to commercial media (movies and television), and to a lesser extent, the popularity of magic in computer games. In a more serious way, I think the growing uneasiness with the destruction of the world is leading a lot of people--especially young persons--to seek ways of healing and rescuing the world...hence, the appeal of magic.

Add into this the inevitable strains and group/peer pressures that go with being young in this culture, and there does in fact appear a fair amount of immature posturing, self-promotion, and the like. Inevitably, in less-discerning minds, this ends up tarring entire generations as "unserious" and not long for the Craft.

So, ageism is definitely happening...while it overlaps and feeds into other factors. That's what I meant to say.

[Pagan Warrior]

Ageism isn't isolated to the United States ... Just last year I read an article through BBC that talked about ageism in work place and the laws changing in the UK. Furthermore it doesn't work just towards older individuals ... I faced age discrimination when I was in my early 20's applying for certain jobs.

[David19]

Am I a paranoid weirdo (don't answer that) who is making all of this up? I'd love to hear your opinions.

Ah, you're not a paranoid wierdo ;).

[cheddarsox]

I've seen it in some pagan circles, that are eager to prove themselves by "honoring" their elders...just like they did it in the golden age of paganism!

They are thrilled to pieces if they can find some gray haired folk to "prove" themselves with, whether or not said folk know what they are talking about.

I've only seen this in the groups that are always looking over their shoulders to make sure someone is watching them, the point of their existence seems to be...well, making a point to some mostly imagined audience.

These gatherings are peppered with lots of toothy smiles, winks, and each member seems to have a "role". They like to talk loudly and repeatedly about how they dance naked, have ceremonies they can't "divulge" (but they seem so disappointed when no one begs...oh you can tell me.)

I had one of these old geezers bragging to me and some young males about how as high priest he gets to have naked 20 year old women on his lap and eat sushi off their bodies...um..OK...that sounds like...well, some dirty old geezer bragging, but have no idea how it relates in any way to a practice of faith.

They drag out the wine and talk about how wild the last ritual got...and the "I got one better than that" stories start.

And they trot out their "elder" as proof that they are "for real".

To those types, Pagan stands for: people and gods accomplishing nothing

yup, I'm ranting. Calling it like I see it.

[Windsmith]

Wow. I think I have really lucked out. Our tradition works very hard to make a place for everyone at the table, regardless of age. Everyone's voice is heard. My community's elders welcome new voices from teenagers and children. However, listening to what young folk have to say doesn't always end with doing what they say to. You don't always get your way, no matter what age you are, but some folks confuse the way of the world with the discrimination of the world.

Mostly, the ageism I see runs in the other direction, and it is far from universal. Like I said, I know plenty of elders who respect teens and young adults, and plenty of teens and young adults who respect true elders. Alas, I also see a lot of teenagers who read one book by Silver Ravenwolf and immediately declare themselves to be experts on all things Pagan, coming into a community or event spouting "facts" about Pagan history and practice. Anyone who tries to correct inaccurate histories or point out that, while that may be true for the individual, it is far from universal law, or perhaps not the way things are done in this particular tradition, these Super-Awesome Teen Witches (tm) accuse of being outdated, or ageist, or just plain wrong. Funny...they like to talk about how their religion must be respected because people have practiced it for more than two thousand years, yet they show only disrespect to actual people who have practiced it for more than 10 years.

[Sage Rainsong]

Ah, you're not a paranoid wierdo ;).

Clearly, you don't know me that well :lol: .

[Juniper138]

I think part of the problem is people forget what being a teenager is like. When you are 14 to 19, you know everything, and no one understands you, any criticism is an attack, but at the same time you are desperate for approval and acceptance. We were all like that at that age, whether we were pagan or not. When a 17 year old shows up at a pagan event, and acts like she knows everything and gets upset when told otherwise, thats just being a typical teen. And that is how they learn. It's how we learned as teens. It does not make them fluffy or any such thing, just a young adult whose hormones are all over the place.
It can be difficult to swallow when someone half your age tells you the right way to do things, but that does not mean we should drive them away. Nor does it means we should nod and agree with everything. Being told by a older and wiser person that you do not know as much as you think can be painful, but if done in a respectful and polite and gentle manner, can teach them an important lesson. We want to encourage our young pagans, and point them in the right direction, or else we will lose them all, and paganism will begin to die out. Those who will never learn, will move on. Those who will learn, will become the elders of tomorrow.

It saddens me that we treat our elders with such a lack of respect, especially those with so much wisdom and knowledge we could benefit from. Perhaps as our population ages as it will in the next decade, things will change a bit.

[Moira Naimh Keane]

Juniper138, your post really hit home for me.
I have two teenagers. The oldest has always adjusted to things easily, and for her there is no real black and white ("only shades of grey" to quote a Monkees song...).
But my youngest seems to only see in black and white. Sometimes she drives me NUTS! She has no patience for others' frailties...
It helps to remember those days when I was younger. My early 20s were like her at age 15/16. My oldest sister used to quote Voltaire at me and sneer, "Oh, the vulgarity of youth!" I don't know if Voltaire or anybody else said that, and I never took the time to look it up! But I got the gist of what she was saying....she thought I was acting like a know-it-all. Maybe I was, but I was too close to my opinions to tell.
However, just a few short years later I was amazed at what I thought I knew but didn't. It was a shocker!
That does not mean I was wrong about everything; it just meant some viewpoints had to be adjusted.
But in all honesty, what would we do without the brashness (not the vulgarity) of youth? For the most part, I felt like I was immortal and like I could do anything. I bet many teenagers and 20 year olds feel that way. But where would we be without them? It's that attitude and behavior that makes the world change. (This is you making me be introspective, and philosophical, and all!).
As we age we reason more, and sometimes talk ourselves out of doing things that at one time we wouldn't hesitate to do.
I love that freshness of youth.
You did a great job helping me to remember what teenagers are indeed, like. (Even though I live with two!). Your post was very insightful and objective.
Sometimes just a little patience is needed while they get their footing.
At the same time, I still do agree that it would be nice to see elders treated with more courtesy and respect because it truly isn't easy to get to be elders.
I like your last sentence because it is full of hope. Plus, I think you are probably right.

[Juniper138]

Awww shucks, now I feel special :hahugh:

[Fairy_Princess]

Not long after I became active in the Craft, I was invited to make a presentation at a monthly get-together of Wiccans in Seattle. The topic involved some work I had done in the past for a well-known public figure, so it "dated" me when I mentioned having done it. Now, feature this: I'm talking along, describing various things...and this woman in the audience blurts out, "You're old!"

What do you call that?

Slow on the uptake.

[Philosophia]

It saddens me that we treat our elders with such a lack of respect, especially those with so much wisdom and knowledge we could benefit from. Perhaps as our population ages as it will in the next decade, things will change a bit.

I agree but I also think it happens in reverse as well. I know that some elders sometimes treat many young people as if they don't know anything when, in reality, they could very well learn something, just as some younger people disrespect the elders.

I don't like using age as a platform for wisdom and knowledge, but thats just me.

[ladyraven]

I have had mixed experiences when dealing with other pagans. I can remember several times where I was talking with someone or to a group on how to go about some spellwork and had an older individual came up and start "correcting" me, when in fact I was right, but because I am young, and look younder than what I am, it's thought I'm one of those angst Silver Ravenwolf teen witches and can't possibly know what I'm talking about, when in fact I'm in no way Wiccan and was brought up in my beliefs and have for the past ten years studied various "occult" religions. I for some reason always seem to get that older pagan/wiccan practioner whose only been at it for a couple years lecturing me about how to go about things or that I don't anything.

On the other hand, I have been fortunate to meet a few elders who immediately recognized my experience and knowledge and therefore take me seriously. I even had one while at the local shoppe stepped up to one of the individuals I mentioned earlier and told them that they needed to take a few notes from me.

I think we all sometimes get caught up in what we know and what we think we know and need to just listen, because even though they may not be that experienced they might have a good idea.

[Aithne Cathasaigh]

I've seen both sides of the street. teens and 20 somethings who refuse to accept they may not know everything (normal for that age category, it's part of their development, not something bad or wrong), and much older folk who are the same way(these folks usually have issues).

Age automatically gets treated with respect imho, I figure if you've managed to survive in this world that long you deserve to be treated with respect.

That said, there is a difference between respecting a person, and treating them with respect.

Someone brought up the "fluffy bunny" part of it, and imho, people who get categorized as fluffy bunnies are just excited newbies. Give them a while and they'll either calm down and get serious, or they'll move on to the next fad.

The ones that worry me are the ones who've been around for a few years or longer, and still refuse to accept reality. I don't care how old they are, running around telling people that the "evil christians killed 8 million witches" and if anyone dares explain to them that is incorrect they immediately start screaming persecution and bully.

As far as teens go, I think the biggest issue there is that for many Wiccans (oath bound groups) it is considered unethical to train or initiate a minor. It isn't that they don't want them to learn, but rather their tradition says certain information cannot be available to them until they are adults. I actually appreciate this, I have two kids, though they're both older now, and if any group had tried to get one of mine to take an oath of secrecy, I'd have flipped out.

Lastly, the old guy you talked about? I think I know him, he shows up around here too. Sad part, most folk just laugh at him and he is oblivious.

[Juniper138]

One thing that we will be seeing more and more is young people who really were raised in a pagan family. Not just claim to be, but actually WERE.
I am 27, and was born in 1980, my Grandmother began to dabble in the occult back in the late 60s. I had a friend in high school, the same age as me, whose mother joined a Wiccan coven in the early 80s, and raised her kids in the Craft. My generation is starting to have kids, and raise them up pagan. It won't be long, and people will no longer be able to automatically assume the teenager or twenty-something at the Gathering is a wide-eyed newbie who knows nothing, because more and more of them will have grown up learning from someone in the family.

[Nitefalle]

That is a very valid point, Juniper, and I can only imagine how that's going to change the face of Paganism in the years to come. I wonder will it allow for more diversity, or cause it to become more dogmatic as people staunchly insist "No, this is how I was raised, this is how it is!" ? I could see it going both ways.

[Glory]

That is a very valid point, Juniper, and I can only imagine how that's going to change the face of Paganism in the years to come. I wonder will it allow for more diversity, or cause it to become more dogmatic as people staunchly insist "No, this is how I was raised, this is how it is!" ? I could see it going both ways.

Yes.

But that's not a bad thing - all religious/spiritual movements will have those. But no one can escape the fact that we will all worship individually, even if we say we follow the same path, deity, rules, whatever. So it doesn't really worry me.

I think it'll be nice to have a generation of young pagans. Some will be open, some will be dogmatic.