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Simply Puzzled
July 7th, 2007, 09:00 PM
I was reading the unbinding thread, and (really no offense to the poster intended) wondering exactly how powerful of a wizard a kid who doesn't know how to unbind and with no friends could be, when I started thinking about the nature of magic.

Gardner said that witches are leg-pullers. He wrote that if a person thought only nasty tasting medicines were effective, the witch was sure to give them the worst concoction they could mix. Of course, today we have a name for this: the placebo effect. You can open medical journals and find long, scholarly papers on it with esoteric titles and confusing language that would put A.E. Waite to shame. It is a psychological effect based on how the immune system responds to....blah, blah, blah.

Except, our magical ancestors couldn't exactly walk down to Barnes & Noble; grab a double iced low-fat grande vanilla latte with one sugar and one spenda, extra foam; and browse through the psychology section. To them, it was all just....magic.

Onto sociology:

Sociologists like to say there are two basic world views that cultures have: magical and natural. That is to say, some cultures will tend to look for supernatural causes of unexplained events, and some will look for natural causes. They tell us that our culture embraces natural causes, leaving out that the second medical science fails to explain the recession of a disease it's a "miracle". The theory also tends to create a hierarchy where we are "better" than those with a magical worldview, leaving aside that they tend to be highly sensitive to natural events. The whole thing is quite condescending and, frankly, bullshit. But I think there is something there we can use.

Onto magic:
Somewhere along the way, I think we have adopted a natural worldview that compartmentalizes magic. When we look at the placebo effect, we don't see magic. We see psychology. We define magic so much more narrowly that our spiritual predecessors that we don't see magic. We see another force that operates under specific principles that can be replicated, just like we can replicate an experiment with magic. We've lost the view that life *is* magic.

Which brings us back to my opening remarks. I, if you can't tell from this post, have a lot of training in the social sciences. If you think that the more you learn about people, the more you understand about the rational operation of the human mind, you are absolutely wrong, and possibly an economist. Human beings are fundamentally irrational, fundamentally magical. And using magic, you can have a great deal of influence over how they interact with you. I'm not talking about spells in your home. I mean in the field. When you are with them, your words, your actions....magic. People watching would think it was psychology, but, well, we've been over this. Psychology is magic. Everything is magic. Of course, you could take the opposite view that psychology is science. Everything is science. But what fun is that?

Xander67
July 7th, 2007, 10:37 PM
Ah yes, how we all long for the re-unification of science and Magic..

science / magic/ art
never leave home without them...

sacred Geometry,
Quantum Physics..

where exactly does magic end and science begin?
where does science end and magic begin?

that thin line...
Id love to take an eraser and erase that line, but then society woulnt like that much,
lol

Tanya
July 7th, 2007, 11:03 PM
As a scientist (I'm a funny scientist... I guess you could call me a 'planetologist' (because I've a heavy background in geology, bio, natural resource managment, and chemistry) and a witch I don't see any split at all except for in our own squirrelly minds....
I can't imagine anyone can see the complexity of the natural world an not be awed by the utter magicalness of it!

to classify cultures as either being 'magical' focused or 'naural' focused I think is itself a very western way to look at culture. I would imagine many clutures are wanting to know 'how things work' with ou in any way diminishing their strong faith in the trandcendent nature of the world

i know many scientists who insist, it is in science that thy came to marvel at the trancendent

aluokaloo
July 8th, 2007, 12:01 AM
science was never my thing, (alot of it to do with math, and all I can do is sit there like an idiot cause I'm an idiot at math.) I dont' wanna say that I'm trying to be ignorant of science, truth is I just don't get most of it.

LadyCelt
July 8th, 2007, 12:20 AM
do you mean how in church, it is viewed as a positive thing and healing; yet in a ritual or spell or chant it is evil and the work of the devil?

cheddarsox
July 8th, 2007, 09:27 AM
Yes, yes, and yes!

I am a scientist (currently displaced, but still) and a science educator. I've had students fight over what an organism was...plant or animal. I stop them and say "It is what it is. Humans made up the categories to serve human purposes, the categories don't exist in the universe, only in our minds. Maybe the organism is neither and we need to make a new category."

Many humans have become prisoners to a system of organization we created, seeming to forget that it's our tool and we can alter it if and when neccessary.

I don't believe there is any line, wall, or boundary between magic and mundane. It's useful to have the terminology, but it is not ultimate reality.

The universe is what it is, it operates how it operates, not according to the rules that we have assigned to it. We are the one's that need to alter our language and concepts to reality, not the other way round.

Our understandings of science, magic and the so called "laws" of nature don't mean squat. What works, works, no matter if we understand it, or can quantify it or not.

This is what led me to pantheism, I worship the whole amazing system, not a limited human rendering of it, trapped in time by a certain culture. I worship the real thing, not a snapshot of it.

I love this place, and the minds I encounter here.

Nitefalle
July 9th, 2007, 01:07 PM
This is certainly a very interesting thread and will cause me to rethink some of my previous notions on "magical" and "scientific". Thanks guys! :cheers:

Xander67
July 10th, 2007, 12:06 PM
oh tell me about it! did you read the thread on Quantum Qaballa???

*flops*
:spaceman:

Credulous Warlock
July 12th, 2007, 07:28 PM
*Deleted by Kaylara*Go spam your own website with this crap.

Kaylara
July 12th, 2007, 07:46 PM
Yeah, you can piss off too. Buh Bye.

Simply Puzzled
July 13th, 2007, 11:45 AM
Yeah, you can piss off too. Buh Bye.

Would you care to contribute to the thread in a more positive way?