Disturbing thoughts

[MariThorn]

I really didn't know where else to post this, so here goes. :)

Just recently I joined, loosely utilizing that term, a forum of Traditional Witches to learn what they think, and perhaps learn about that arena of witchcraft. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading what they have to say and conversing with many of them. Today I received a private message pertaining to a post I put there, like I did here, regarding Oberon Zell- Ravenheart. In it the person call Wiccans and neo pagans Bastards, ie illegitimate witches or pagans. Is this something other "new witches" have encountered? That if you are not born into it, or part of a Traditional Witchcraft House you are a bastard? I find this frankly disturbing.

Just seeing what is up, and if this is something I just have missed because I live in such a secluded place.

Thanks,
Marithorn

PS I am not even going to say what they called witches who write for Llewellyn publications. Lets say my mood says it all.

[bigolalaskan]

Yeah well, I tend to ignore people like that. I have my own thoughts on those who believe that people like myself, who came to the goddess later in life are not "real" witches / pagans.

My ancestory is mostly irish, with german and english rounding out the bloodlines.

Although my family worshiped in the Episcopalian (sp??) and Luthern demoniations, we were constantly "knocking on wood", making corn dollies in the fall, holloween was celebrated with enthusiasm, constant referrals to Mother Earth, etc. Now if somone were to tell them where all that came from, I'm sure I'd be laughed out of the family reunion.

Somewhere, in both of my parents lines, there are people of the old ways. It got hidden and became a part of our "culture".

As my self-study goes further, I'm finding a draw to brigid. When my mind envisions the Goddess, it's always been a figure like Brigid. The path I have chosen is the path of my ancestors. Because maybe they perferred to live, and not be tortured, they may have chosen christianity. Does this make ME as a person any less of a "witch" with lineage? No, because i feel it through my veins, my soul, and every nerve ending.

Why did I reject the religion of my more recent ancestors? It never made sense to me. To me, it applies to the people of middle-eastern decent. Not someone whose ancestors were doing things alot differently 5,000 years ago.

I know I'm going to piss someone off with the next statement:

I believe it is the responsibility of the Lineage witches to help instruct those of us that have found their way BACK to the goddess after generations of being away from her. I have a very good friend who is a lineage witch, and she does take alot of pride in that fact, but she also does her best to instruct those of us coming back to the goddess on the old ways.

My 2 cents.

[Artiste-LiLi]

You aren't the first....and.....you won't be the last.

I'm what has been referred to as "a lineage witch", I was born into a "Witchy Family" and I have been adopted by two other Family Traditions, I am proud of my heritage (blood) and I am proud of the heritage of my adopting families which is now my heritage. I have always viewed the attitude you speak of as "snobbery". While I do not hand out the hard earned and learned knowledge of my families willy-nilly...I do not withhold knowledge and encouragement from those who are truly dedicated.

I have never liked snobs.

As for those who write for Llewellyn publications, I know some of those people....the ones I know are good people who are truly dedicated to their paths. I view Llewellyn as just one way for knowledge to spread. I don't agree with everyone who publishes with them...but hey, I don't agree with everyone anyway.

[MariThorn]

Thank you both for your responses, I am still waiting to hear from one of the moderators as to whether this is how they feel in general on that particular venue.

Marithorn

[LadyCelt]

I feel it is similar to a Christian who is raised that way thinking one who has only been Christian for a short time isn't as Christian or has enough knowledge. We all come to things at different times and relate differently.

[Lolair]

Hi MariThorn,

I know what forum you are talking about, I've left it twice before because of attitudes I did not want to put up with. I may be a trad witch, but many of my friends as well as my hubby are Wiccan. Many new witches who realize that there was no burning times, and that Wicca didn't date back to the pre-historic ages get very angry and seek refuge in 'traditional witchcraft' and hate on Wiccans - it's usually just a phase but some don't grow out of it. Others are just plain snobby - to them if you're not practicing pre-Gardnerian craft or are hereditary, you're not a 'real' witch. This erudite attitude permeates the traditional witchcraft community and there is much Neopagan bashing in general. You either learn to let it roll of your back and stay active in the community, standing up for other paths now and then, or you can choose to stay away. I've found that trying to stay away doesn't make a difference as prejudices and witchwars are in every witchcraft community; BTW's to neo-Wiccans, Recons to neo-pagans... You can't win, so just be firm in your own sense of fairness, right and wrong, and don't put up with bashing in your presence.

Also, if you take extreme offense at something someone pm's you or you read in a post, you should report it to the administrator - especially if it is abusive, disturbing, and inflammatory.

Blessings,
Lolair

[Aithne Cathasaigh]

I don't know what you said to incite such a blasting, I can tell you that a lot of people tend to make fun of Oberon because he links his books and school with Harry Potter.

I'm guessing it's a marketing ploy to get people to recognize a key word or picture and then buy his book over another. I've never read one of his books, though I have read several reviews, most of them mixed. By mixed I mean a mix of good and bad points.

Another part of the problem is that there is no consensus on what certain terms mean, so you use it one way, and someone else uses it another way, and a third person gets offended. LOL...

There is not much you can do about that. I can only offer what I've tried, when discussing trad witchcraft I explain what I mean by certain words, Wiccan, Tradition, pagan, etc. That usually accomplishes two things,
one it lets folk know that I am not an idiot, and have spent considerable time on the subject
and it also tells them that I have clear and firm ideas of what is what and am less likely to be a good target.


Last but not least, NEVER let someone yell at you in a PM, forward that sucker off to the Mod's. That is totally inappropriate behavior.

:)

[MariThorn]

Lolair - Thanks, and I did contact a Moderator. I have come to terms with yet another facet of human pettiness. :)

Aithne - I didn't post anything actually, other than what do you think of him and his writings? So the person needed to rant, and felt they could do it in my pm. Next time they will think differently.

thanks everyone.

[aluokaloo]

I really didn't know where else to post this, so here goes. :)

Just recently I joined, loosely utilizing that term, a forum of Traditional Witches to learn what they think, and perhaps learn about that arena of witchcraft. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading what they have to say and conversing with many of them. Today I received a private message pertaining to a post I put there, like I did here, regarding Oberon Zell- Ravenheart. In it the person call Wiccans and neo pagans Bastards, ie illegitimate witches or pagans. Is this something other "new witches" have encountered? That if you are not born into it, or part of a Traditional Witchcraft House you are a bastard? I find this frankly disturbing.

Just seeing what is up, and if this is something I just have missed because I live in such a secluded place.

Thanks,
Marithorn

PS I am not even going to say what they called witches who write for Llewellyn publications. Lets say my mood says it all.



pagans/witches/etc. have bigots among our ranks too, just like everybody else does, hun. :hugz: and try to ignore those kinds of people.

[ChthonicRose]

What is a Wiccan? A person who loves nature, does what he/she wants to do, harms none, worships/works with the goddess(es) and/or god(s)...Right??

Do you have to be born into a line of people who are like this to be considered Wiccan? I would like to think that these traits will become stronger in our children (the harm none and reverence for nature part especially) and spreads like wildfire throughout the entire world, pagan or non-pagan alike.

How can one group of people claim to "have it all" and pass judgement on others is what's beyond me.

[bigolalaskan]

Its really no different than my sister who believes catholics, mormon's, & jehovah witnesses aren't true christians because they have one or more testaments different than hers . . .

and your right . . . bigots and irrational people come in all races, colors, genders, and beliefs

[Xander67]

Deluded...
That is what I call them... Major Elliteist issues lol

Magic is Everyone's Birthright and anyone who tells you other is a control freak and a manipulating charlatan...

[RenDjembe]

Lets see is someone who is not of Middle Eastern decent not a true Christian?
That's where the religion started. That goes for Judaism & Islam.

I posted in my "Introduction" message that I had a Grandmother & Aunt who often used a bit of Witchcraft. For either determaning if a person had had the Evil Eye placed on them or a house blessing. I would hardly call them Witches or see myself as in a family tradition. Witchcraft is a craft that some chooses to practice regardless of ones religion or heritage.

NO ONE really knows what the ancients practiced or believed.
I think it is fair game for anyone.

Ren

[Tullip Troll]

I think if witches want to claim power by lieage, they should have to produce papers like a dog at a dog show then

[Juniper138]

I think if witches want to claim power by lieage, they should have to produce papers like a dog at a dog show then

LOL That would be great! I can see it now, all these people walking around pagan festivals with certificates of authentication clutched to their chests. Mine would read:

"Celtic Hedgewitch.
Scottish and Irish Heritage.
Practising since 1995.
Maternal Grandmother amateur occultist. Mother excellent gardener and amateur herbalist.
Father's side is Jehovah's Witness."

:yayah:

[Tullip Troll]

LOL That would be great! I can see it now, all these people walking around pagan festivals with certificates of authentication clutched to their chests. Mine would read:

"Celtic Hedgewitch.
Scottish and Irish Heritage.
Practising since 1995.
Maternal Grandmother amateur occultist. Mother excellent gardener and amateur herbalist.
Father's side is Jehovah's Witness."

:yayah:

Ahh, but are your registered and I need proof of pedigree

:nyah:

[Artiste-LiLi]

*WOOF WOOF* LOL!

I'm one of those "lineage Witches"....I don't claim any "power" though and my family never claimed to be "Witches"....in my family it was "just the way things are done". I was well into my teens before I understood just what it was we were doing. lol. Living in the South the people in my family were referred to as "grannywomen", "yarbmen", "healerwoman", "rootdoctors" and many other names. They were never called Witches though.....welllll.....at least not to their faces. <grin> For us the craft is not really a "religion", though we do have some aspects of "worship" in the way we do things, we see it more as a "science" or a "craft" that anyone can learn with much dedication and hard work. I was always taught that the only role genetics/heritage played in it was: some people just learn it a little easier and faster, and are a bit better at it *because of their family bloodlines* and *because they grew up living it* instead of "learning it".

I think it would hysterical to see people walking around with their "pedigrees"!