Another sabbat question...sorry.

[EvieLee]

Ok, this is probably going to be one of those questions where, after I get some answers, I'll say "duh" and slap myself silly for my easily confused brain.

Different sources have been giving my contradictory information, and even different threads in MW are doing the same, so I'm just going to come out with it.

The solstices and equinoxes are:
a) the starts of the seasons, or
b) the high points/peaks of the seasons?

And a follow up questions would be if the solstices and equinoxes are a) or b) does that make the four other sabbats the remaining option? Is this another hemisphere thing that I've been missing before now?

My Lunabar says one thing, the names midwinter and midsummer indicate another, and the various websites and other sources I've blundered into have thoroughly confused the living crap out of me.

Help? Pretty please? Before my brain explodes?

[Raven Heart]

Points on the orbit around the sun, the start of the seasons.
In the older days there where only really two seasons people took note of, so midsummer would be the peak of summer and the same as of midwinter.

[Tullip Troll]

Also, something our family has started doing, we celebrate when it applies to us, May ist is not very Beltane like around here, due to the diffrence in climate from hundreds of years ago and location issues. So we move it to a later date, so that nature is actually showing what we are trying to celebrate.


Our Calendar is not what people used so long agao, they went by moons and Nature. This makes sense to me as it puts us more in sync with nature. That is after all the whole point for us.

Solstice doesn't change for us, longest and shortest day is as they are.

Also again, NO SUCH THING AS STUPID QUESTIONS !

[Nitefalle]

Typically, the equinoxes / solstices mark the beginnings of the seasons. The titles "midsummer" and "midwinter" used to confuse me, too, so I took to calling them Yule and Litha, their other traditional names, so as not to think about it. The "fire festivals" or cross quarters or whatever the kids are calling them these days, can be seen in a couple of different ways. Personally, I see them as the "peaks", where the season is in full swing. Some people only celebrate them, and so that may be the start of the season, for them. I think they are open to a lot more interpretation than the solar / celestial holidays.

[MariThorn]

It really depends on how you want to see it, there is not hard written way of seeing the Wheel of the Year, unless you are in a coven that has laid down its own rules.

We see the period leading up to the date as the season, ie from the end of Samhain, the last harves, up to December 21 (Mid-Winter), is the season of Yule. This was after much discussion and thought on the matter. If you have ever noticed, people don't just put up Christmas decorations on December 25th, they typically start after the last holiday, Thanksgiving. The big celebration is on the feast day, but there is a season.

I agree with Tullip Troll, you should celebrate when your seasons are there where you live. Why celebrate the beginning of summer with snow on the ground?

[EvieLee]

Typically, the equinoxes / solstices mark the beginnings of the seasons. The titles "midsummer" and "midwinter" used to confuse me, too, so I took to calling them Yule and Litha, their other traditional names, so as not to think about it. The "fire festivals" or cross quarters or whatever the kids are calling them these days, can be seen in a couple of different ways. Personally, I see them as the "peaks", where the season is in full swing. Some people only celebrate them, and so that may be the start of the season, for them. I think they are open to a lot more interpretation than the solar / celestial holidays.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one that has been completely lost in this at sometime or another. The part where I get confused I suppose is when comparing the dates to the actual climate at the time. This year the Autumn Equinox was definitely at the start of Autumn, but the Winter Solstice was not long ago but we've been in the swing of Winter for quite a while. Damned unpredicatable weather.


It really depends on how you want to see it, there is not hard written way of seeing the Wheel of the Year, unless you are in a coven that has laid down its own rules.

(snip)

I agree with Tullip Troll, you should celebrate when your seasons are there where you live. Why celebrate the beginning of summer with snow on the ground?

I was actually looking for astronomical answers rather than "Wheel of the Year" answers, so I guess this may have gone better in the science forum (and under a different title I suppose). Of course, being in Aus, Ive learnt to pay more attention to the local climate than the books (that are backwards mostly. lol). But as I'm trying to work out my "Wheel" from scratch, the basics are still important...and confusing. lol.

Thanks to both of you for replying. :hahugh: If anyone else has something to add please do.

Edit: Ok, I think I can see where I'm going wrong - I'm getting quarter and cross-quarter holidays mixed up. I'm still wondering why Winter Solstice, being the longest night and shortest day of the year, isn't the peak of winter...that's mighty weird logic to me. But I'm probably misunderstanding something. I have to laugh that I've been actively Pagan for 7 years (Wiccan for about 4 of those) and am still stuggling with this. :lol:

[EvieLee]

Ok, here's a little example of why I'm still confused:

Mike Nichols' "The Witches' Sabbats" says:

That the cross-quarter days should be regarded as more important than the solstices or equinoxes should come as no surprise. It is a common human experience that things reach their greatest strength, their moment of peak energy, at their midpoint...The cross-quarter days can thus be seen as the four “power points” of the year. Consequently, those power points were marked by the four most important holidays of the Witches’ year which, according to the old folk calendar, also marked the turning of the seasons.

But Wiki (yes, I know Wiki's a pretty poor source, but stick with me) says:

The date at which each of the four temperate season begins varies from culture to culture. In general there are three reckonings, "Astronomical", "Meteorological", and "Traditional". Astrologically speaking Winter (for example) starts on the Winter Equinox. Meteorologically speaking Winter starts on June 1st. And Traditionally speaking the middle of Winter is the Winter Solstice.

And just to add to the mayhem, printed notes from a local 6 week course I took on Alexandrian based Wicca states that:

The Greater Sabbats are Celtic in origin and mark the beginning of the seasons. These are Imbolg, Bealtaine, Lughnasadh and Samhain. The remaining four are solar festivals, whose timing is detirmined by the relationship of the Sun to the Earth.

So all in all, I'm completely stumped. :lol:

Edit:

Ok, this is the last tid-bit I'm posting until someone worthy of much worship comes along. I promise.

I found this at archeoastronomy.com:

Old Celtic calendars observed Cross Quarters, approximately midway between each pair of adjacent Equinox and Solstice days. Unlike modern calendars that define the start of a season on a Solstice or Equinox, the Celts perceived Solstices and Equinoxes as events occuring mid-season, with the seasons actually beginning and ending on the Cross Quarters...(snip)...Perhaps the Celtic perception of the seasonal calendar harmonizes best with nature. Should Summer's arrival really mark a time of year when daytime just gets shorter and shorter? Is it logical for days to only lengthen throughout Winter? It seems to contradict our perception of what these seasons are, or is it just a mid-Summer's night dream of mine? The Celts believed major transitional days --- Solstices and Equinoxes --- should be enveloped by the time of year they signify, not stand for mere boundary markers! Celtic calendar keepers favored the Cross Quarters as bookends for every season under the sun.

So is this just a thing where the Irish had to be special or something? I get that following local seasonal trends is viewed as more beneficial for an understanding of the yearly cycle (and I'm the first to stick my hand up and advocate that). But I always though astronomical events were rather solid in the factual metre. I don't know, I'll just wait here till someone helps me with all my plagarism. :grin:

[skilly-nilly]

Ok, here's a little example of why I'm still confused:

Mike Nichols' "The Witches' Sabbats" says:

But Wiki (yes, I know Wiki's a pretty poor source, but stick with me) says:

And just to add to the mayhem, printed notes from a local 6 week course I took on Alexandrian based Wicca states that:

So all in all, I'm completely stumped. :lol:

Edit:

Ok, this is the last tid-bit I'm posting until someone worthy of much worship comes along. I promise.

I found this at archeoastronomy.com:


So is this just a thing where the Irish had to be special or something?
but aren't the Irish allllllllllways special?


I get that following local seasonal trends is viewed as more beneficial for an understanding of the yearly cycle (and I'm the first to stick my hand up and advocate that). But I always though astronomical events were rather solid in the factual metre. I don't know, I'll just wait here till someone helps me with all my plagarism. :grin:

On the one hand, cultures vary. When one source says one thing and another source says another they're referencing different cultures/opinions/beliefs. Everywhere has different local holidays.

On the other hand, not everyone celebrates 8 holidays and not everyone perceives them as seasonal. I don't do astronomy myself, but apparently you can tie the holidays into sun and star changes without any reference to climate.

The irish (irrefutably special) divided the year into halves--the Bright Half starting May-Day and the Dark Half starting Hallowe'e'n. Those, to me, are the 'beginnings'.

I just celebrate 'The Longest Night' and 'The Longest Day' as themselves because to me they are neither 'mid' nor 'start'; they are just what they are. Same with the equnoxi--to me they are 'balance' days. And I celebrate Bridget's Day and Lugh's Day because They are in my pantheon.

There are seasonal tie-ins (Longest Night, the Tipping of Winter, The World is an Egg, Brightness Begins, Longest Day, the Wheat King is cut down, Harvest Home, Darkness Begins) to add another layer.

But, on the griping hand, I think you'll have to pick what works for you and not worry if other people's pick is different. Since you are antipodal, you're already seasonally opposite. Add in your personal Path and what your interests are (as in astrological or not) and acknowledge but dismiss what doesn't fit into your format.

When researching Paganism, don't expect source agreement.

[Juniper138]

It's fine to adjust how you honor each sabbat and what it means TO YOU, depending on your climate. When I was living in northern Alberta, I had snow on the ground from November to May. It was difficult to celebrate Ostara as the start of Spring, and Beltaine as the start of Summer! Instead, I celebrated Ostara as a yearning for Spring, and Beltaine as the end of Winter.

[Lunacie]

I found this at archeoastronomy.com:

Old Celtic calendars observed Cross Quarters, approximately midway between each pair of adjacent Equinox and Solstice days. Unlike modern calendars that define the start of a season on a Solstice or Equinox, the Celts perceived Solstices and Equinoxes as events occuring mid-season, with the seasons actually beginning and ending on the Cross Quarters...(snip)...Perhaps the Celtic perception of the seasonal calendar harmonizes best with nature. Should Summer's arrival really mark a time of year when daytime just gets shorter and shorter? Is it logical for days to only lengthen throughout Winter? It seems to contradict our perception of what these seasons are, or is it just a mid-Summer's night dream of mine? The Celts believed major transitional days --- Solstices and Equinoxes --- should be enveloped by the time of year they signify, not stand for mere boundary markers! Celtic calendar keepers favored the Cross Quarters as bookends for every season under the sun.


That's how I've come to think of the solstices and equinoxes and cross quarters. This is what I included in our Midsummer / Solstice / Litha celebration last month:

Modern calendars call June 21 - the summer solstice - the first day of summer, which seems odd when it's really the mid-point of summer. According to the old folklore calendar, summer begins on Beltaine, May 1st, when we welcome the sun and celebrate the warmth it brings to grow our fruits, grains and veggies. And summer ends on Lammas - Lughnassadh, Aug 1st, when the harvest of all those crops is in full swing. The summer solstice falls midway between the two and it makes more sense to call it "midsummer" than to suggest that summer begins on the day when the Sun's power begins to wane and the days begin to grow shorter. At least that's how it is here in Kansas.

[EvieLee]

Thanks Skilly-nilly and Lunacie. You've both helped clear my muddy little pool. One of the things that always baffled me as a little fluffy mite when I first stumbled onto Wicca was that it was rare for sources to actually agree with one another. :lol: I shall kind of "cross reference" the solstices and equinoxes with the observations I've been doing and see what is most appropriate. It doesn't help that patterns change from year to year here. *le sigh* That's the fun of it I suppose.
Thanks again!

[Lunacie]

I'm glad if I helped you to sort it out for yourself. Kansas has all four seasons, that's true, but they aren't divided equally into 3 month segments. Spring and fall last only about a month each. Summer lasts about 6 months. And winter lasts about 4 months.

So I generally plan my wheel of the year to coincide with the equinoxes and solstices, and the cross quarter celebrations come halfway between those. It's what works for me and my group here in southcentral Kansas.

[skilly-nilly]

You're perfectly welcome.

I keep a seasonal diary on my computer, partly as a piece of my ADF work and partly because I want to.

I start by listing all the full moons of the year to make a framework--I name all the moons with some significant seasonal event that ties in (Daisy, Very Hot, Persistent Rain, Hard Frost, etc). Then, as time passes, I put in local observations (weather, sightings, flowering times) as they occur. As you continue for more than a year, the cycle becomes apparent.

I also post when my Grove celebrates the 8 holidays and what occurred of interest, and if anything seasonally interesting occurs on the actual Day.

Once you are familiar with your local pattern, you can decide if:
a) you want to celebrate on an occurrence (like the Grove that celebrates May-Day when the Hawthorne blossoms)
or
b) if you want to celebrate the solar holidays and the 1/2 betweens and acknowledge what is happening locally (like the memorable May-Day I celebrated with actual blooming violets from my yard--usually May-Day is frozen like a brick).

As far as sources never agreeing, what I do (as for example when I was researching Runes) is write down the structure, in this case the 8 Holidays, and then (in a different colour pen or a different font) put in what each source has to say about the specific Holiday. Then you can easily compare and find any correspondences.

Rather than look for that one elusive source that has the definitive answer, read lots and compare.

[EvieLee]

I'm glad if I helped you to sort it out for yourself. Kansas has all four seasons, that's true, but they aren't divided equally into 3 month segments. Spring and fall last only about a month each. Summer lasts about 6 months. And winter lasts about 4 months.

So I generally plan my wheel of the year to coincide with the equinoxes and solstices, and the cross quarter celebrations come halfway between those. It's what works for me and my group here in southcentral Kansas.

We have a similar pattern here. There's a hot season and a cold season and a little of neutral ground in between. I don't know what I'd do with myself if there were four equal seasons - it would feel a bit odd. :lol:


You're perfectly welcome.

I keep a seasonal diary on my computer, partly as a piece of my ADF work and partly because I want to.

I start by listing all the full moons of the year to make a framework--I name all the moons with some significant seasonal event that ties in (Daisy, Very Hot, Persistent Rain, Hard Frost, etc). Then, as time passes, I put in local observations (weather, sightings, flowering times) as they occur. As you continue for more than a year, the cycle becomes apparent.

Once you are familiar with your local pattern, you can decide if:
a) you want to celebrate on an occurrence (like the Grove that celebrates May-Day when the Hawthorne blossoms)
or
b) if you want to celebrate the solar holidays and the 1/2 betweens and acknowledge what is happening locally (like the memorable May-Day I celebrated with actual blooming violets from my yard--usually May-Day is frozen like a brick).

As far as sources never agreeing, what I do (as for example when I was researching Runes) is write down the structure, in this case the 8 Holidays, and then (in a different colour pen or a different font) put in what each source has to say about the specific Holiday. Then you can easily compare and find any correspondences.

Rather than look for that one elusive source that has the definitive answer, read lots and compare.

Thank you again for all your wonderful advice Skilly-nilly. I do something similar. Once a month I write down all the changes that have happened and anything interesting. Even such a little habit has brought me closer to the cycles.

For anyone else who ever happens upon this thread with similar questions to mine, I have written an lj entry about exactly what I did to come up with my own Wheel of the Year. It may help as a guide to how to go about things. That really irked me when I first started looking into the sabbats - I had no idea how to get started. http://everevie.livejournal.com/4138.html#cutid1

Thanks for everyones help in sorting this all out. :hahugh: