Christian Runes?? YES!

[Lovehound]

From my blog:

http://mysticheart.blogspot.com/2007/07/christian-runes-oh-yes.html

Thought I'd just share that.

[Lunacie]

I don't agree that the rosary is the same kind of mystery as the runes. The runes are an alphabet of mystery, used as an oracle to divine information. The rosary has nothing to do with an alphabet, or with doing divination to find answers (reveal mysteries).

[Lovehound]

I don't agree that the rosary is the same kind of mystery as the runes. The runes are an alphabet of mystery, used as an oracle to divine information. The rosary has nothing to do with an alphabet, or with doing divination to find answers (reveal mysteries).

The very idea of a rune is not and never has been limited to a group of characters or letters.

Believe me, I know what the elder futhark is. I know about the Anglo-Saxon rune row, the Northumbrian rune row, and even the Armanen runes.

Runes don't just stop there. The perception of runes that you are describing is entirely too limited.

[Lunacie]

What are you basing this on? I'd like to see some information that goes beyond runes as an alphabet or an oracle.

[Lovehound]

I don't agree that the rosary is the same kind of mystery as the runes. The runes are an alphabet of mystery, used as an oracle to divine information. The rosary has nothing to do with an alphabet, or with doing divination to find answers (reveal mysteries).

And yes, the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary DOES reveal Mysteries. There are no less than 20 Mysteries of the Holy Rosary:

The Five Joyful Mysteries:
1: the Annunciation
2: the Visitation
3: the Nativity
4: the Presentation
5: Finding Jesus in the Temple

The Five Luminous Mysteries:
1: Jesus' Baptism
2: the Miracle at the wedding in Cana
3: Proclaming the Kingdom of God
4: the Transfiguration
5: Institution of the Eucharist

The Five Sorrowful Mysteries:
1: Agony in the Garden
2: Sourging at the Pillar
3: Crowning with Thorns
4: Carrying of the Cross
5: Crucifixion

The Five Glorious Mysteries:
1: Resurrection
2: Ascension
3: Pentecost/Descent of the Paraclete
4: Mary's Assumption
5: Mary's Coronation

All of these express Christian mysteries; it is like a compendium of the Gospel. Since "rune" means "mystery" all 20 of these ideas can be called "runes." There is a book called 20 Mysteries of the Rosary by M. Basil Pennington that has meditations on each of these Mysteries, and when you pray the Rosary and really focus on these in a meditative state, there's absolutely no denying that these are very real spiritual mysteries.

Just because they don't have little glyphs or characters to go with them, and just because they describe the life and spiritual experiences/teachings of a Jewish rabbi, doesn't make them any less runes.

I was hoping people would learn something new about what a "rune" is and expand their vision of how that word is and always has been defined, and both Christians and heathens/pagans would have their spiritual walk enriched.

I think the point of my post has been completely missed.

[Lovehound]

What are you basing this on? I'd like to see some information that goes beyond runes as an alphabet or an oracle.

Read authors like Keveldulf Gundarsson or Edred Thorsson, for starters; they are rune experts.

Or, read the Havamal - Odin speaks of 18 mighty charms that he learned. Those are runes.

In Stephen Lawhead's novel "Byzantium" one of the Irish priest/slaves (this man had been captured by Sea Wolves and sold into slavery, as often happened just before the turn of the first millennium) speaks a prayer over a cup of ale; one of the Scandinavians sees this and says the priest has spoken a rune/blessing over the ale.

The term "rune" really CAN mean a spell or a chant. It means MYSTERY. Prayers express mysteries.

It is something that in all the reading and studying I've done, and my hubby as well has done (and he is an Odinsman and has been dedicated exclusively to rune studies over anything else - he doesn't bother with Tarot or astrology or I Ching or whatever - runes and runes only, for the past 10 years or more), I have come to the conclusion of.

I have so much material in my house I can't even think of where I noticed that "rune" means "mystery" and not "letter" or "character." A mystery is not a letter; if that was the case, our English alphabet would be rife with meaning, but it isn't.

[Lunacie]

And yes, the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary DOES reveal Mysteries. There are no less than 20 Mysteries of the Holy Rosary:

The Five Joyful Mysteries:
1: the Annunciation
2: the Visitation
3: the Nativity
4: the Presentation
5: Finding Jesus in the Temple

The Five Luminous Mysteries:
1: Jesus' Baptism
2: the Miracle at the wedding in Cana
3: Proclaming the Kingdom of God
4: the Transfiguration
5: Institution of the Eucharist

The Five Sorrowful Mysteries:
1: Agony in the Garden
2: Sourging at the Pillar
3: Crowning with Thorns
4: Carrying of the Cross
5: Crucifixion

The Five Glorious Mysteries:
1: Resurrection
2: Ascension
3: Pentecost/Descent of the Paraclete
4: Mary's Assumption
5: Mary's Coronation

All of these express Christian mysteries; it is like a compendium of the Gospel. Since "rune" means "mystery" all 20 of these ideas can be called "runes." There is a book called 20 Mysteries of the Rosary by M. Basil Pennington that has meditations on each of these Mysteries, and when you pray the Rosary and really focus on these in a meditative state, there's absolutely no denying that these are very real spiritual mysteries.

Just because they don't have little glyphs or characters to go with them, and just because they describe the life and spiritual experiences/teachings of a Jewish rabbi, doesn't make them any less runes.

I was hoping people would learn something new about what a "rune" is and expand their vision of how that word is and always has been defined, and both Christians and heathens/pagans would have their spiritual walk enriched.

I think the point of my post has been completely missed.

In my experience "rune" does not mean "mystery", it means "alphabet of mystery". I'm not trying to say you are wrong or derail your thread. I'm trying to discuss this. If I just said "Yeah, I agree" that wouldn't be much of a discussion, eh? I'm "people" and I'm asking to "learn something new". However, our basic meaning of "rune" seems to be getting in the way here.

[Lovehound]

In my experience "rune" does not mean "mystery", it means "alphabet of mystery". I'm not trying to say you are wrong or derail your thread. I'm trying to discuss this. If I just said "Yeah, I agree" that wouldn't be much of a discussion, eh? I'm "people" and I'm asking to "learn something new". However, our basic meaning of "rune" seems to be getting in the way here.

Where did you get YOUR information on "rune means ALPHABET of mystery"?

Please don't say Silver Ravenwolf. Her information is not to be trusted because quite frankly, she hasn't a clue about the Northern Rede at all (by the way, since you supposedly know runes, you'll know why I say "Northern Rede").

"Futhark" or "futhorc" might be a better word for what YOU are describing.

We have most of the literature on runes published by Edred Thorsson (his real name is Dr. Stephen Flowers and he has a degree in Germanic studies/languages).

Here's an interview with him, to give some idea of what kind of scholar he is: http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/Conversation%20with%20Dr%20Stephen%20Flowers.html

Here's one that's more what you're looking for, but it seems just too simple: "The word "rune" actually means mystery, secret or whisper." It is from this site: http://sunnyway.com/runes/intro.html

That's too easy and not introspective and insightful enough for ME, but hey. If ya want simple easy soundbites, fine.

You can also find this definition in a book by Jan Fries called "Helrunar" and that book title actually means "Mysteries of Light" because "Hel" means "light" as in "light in color." The Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary might be called Helrunar in German.

The idea that "rune" means "mystery" is just understood - not "alphabet of mystery" but "mystery."

[Shanti]

[Origin: 1675–85; < ON rūn a secret, writing, runic character; c. OE rūn (ME rune, obs. E roun). See round (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=round)2http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]
[Origin: 1865–70; < Finnish runo poem, canto < Scand. See rune (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rune)1http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png]
Word History: Among early peoples writing was a serious thing, full of magical power. In its only reference to writing, the Iliad calls it "baneful signs." The Germanic peoples used a runic alphabet as their form of writing, using it to identify combs or helmets, make calendars, encode secret messages, and mark funeral monuments. Runes were also employed in casting spells, as to gain a kiss from a sweetheart or to make an enemy's gut burst. In casting a spell the writing of the runes was accompanied by a mumbled or chanted prayer or curse, also called a rune, to make the magic work. These two meanings also appear in Old English rūn, the ancestor of our word. The direct descendants of Old English rūn are the archaic verb round, "whisper, talk in secret," and the obsolete noun roun, "whispering, secret talk." The use of the word to refer to inscribed runic characters apparently disappeared in the late 14th or early 15th century but was revived by Danish writers on Germanic antiquities, who adopted it from Old Norse toward the end of the 17th century. Appropriately enough, this sense of rune, which had faded away like a whisper, reappeared from the mists of the past.Well I guress it all depends on where you look.
In this case,
Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rune)
*Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

[Lovehound]

At this point, I'm rather regretting posting this. I wish I could take this thread down completely.

All I ever get from people here is criticism, not interest in learning something new.

Or expanding one's mind.

People, these things are a lot more liquid and flexible than they seem to be.

BOTH sides - Christian and pagan - would do well to remember that.

[Shanti]

Sorry but I like learning a lot, including on academic levels and using such things as a dictionary. :)

[Shanti]

Oh and there is nothing wrong with your perspective. Just its not everyones perspective.

Some may see similar too you, and some may not.
Nothing wrong with either.

I see the dictionary and that works for me.
If I had time i would look into more dictionaries to see if there is conflicting info, but I dont have the time right now. :)

[Lovehound]

Has anyone here ever done galdor? That is, chanted the runes as a spell?

I have. If you have ever done galdor, you'll realize that each "rune" such as "raidho" is like unto a prayer in and of itself, because it expresses so much meaning.

Come on, folks! I'm getting so frustrated and I am so wanting to scream......

[Lovehound]

Sorry but I like learning a lot, including on academic levels and using such things as a dictionary. :)

You brat! How dare you insinuate that I don't! That is most certainly not funny!

You should SEE our house and how covered it is with sources, sources, sources!

IT'S IN EVERY FREAKING RUNE BOOK WE HAVE!!

[Shanti]

Has anyone here ever done galdor? That is, chanted the runes as a spell?

I have. If you have ever done galdor, you'll realize that each "rune" such as "raidho" is like unto a prayer in and of itself, because it expresses so much meaning.

Come on, folks! I'm getting so frustrated and I am so wanting to scream......
I haven't but it does sound very interesting.
I am presently comfortable with using runes as a written tool.
It works for me right now and I am content but thank you for sharing a different view. :)
Perhaps someday I may try that.

[ModernKnight]

Has anyone here ever done galdor? That is, chanted the runes as a spell?

I have. If you have ever done galdor, you'll realize that each "rune" such as "raidho" is like unto a prayer in and of itself, because it expresses so much meaning.

Ultimately, I agree with Shanti. Fundamentally, the runes are an alphabet. You can't separate the concept of "rune" out of it's proper cultural context, that of an early Germanic alphabet/magical system. Even the word "Rune" comes from Old Norse. It's part of the whole Germanic worldview, and trying to adopt the word for another context won't remove the history attached to the word. Use the word "mystery" and there's no problems.

Now, back to your original point, can there be Christian spellcraft? Of course, Christian spells are some of the oldest spells we have. Can they be based around a rosary? Sure, why not. But that's not a rune.

[Lunacie]

At this point, I'm rather regretting posting this. I wish I could take this thread down completely.

All I ever get from people here is criticism, not interest in learning something new.

Or expanding one's mind.

People, these things are a lot more liquid and flexible than they seem to be.

BOTH sides - Christian and pagan - would do well to remember that.

I've been busy searching, and learning. What I did was NOT criticism, it was discussion. And I have been learning something new, which is that apparently both of us are right.

I also found the website Shanti posted from and found it very interesting. The way I interpret / or read / or comprehend that information is that the runes were originally used as oracles and also as spells or chants. The chant or poem was recited along with writing or inscribing the rune. They were originally used together. It's possible that over time the chants or poems came to be used without the inscription of the runes themselves, which shines a whole new light on what I know about runes. It seems I went back in history but didn't check to see what happened in the interim between then and now.

However, if you want this thread closed, simply PM the forum guide or whichever Admin is on duty now. Just clicking the report button will probably get their attention if you'd rather. I'm sorry your idea of a discussion was different than mine was. I didn't come here to do a "Christian vs Pagan debate". I was browsing "new posts" and this looked interesting because I read the runes (elder futhark). No need to insult me by asking if I based my information on SilverRavenWolf. :(

[Toby Stimpson]

Hmmm, Im not really convinced.

To be honest Im with Lunacie and Shanti with this one. It could be called a runa...becasue the word Rune derives from the word Runa which means mystery...etc,. But how is a rosary mysertious? How is a prayer a mystery, a form of divination or sorcery?

I can somewhat see what you are getting at, a rosary is a powerful thing... BUT I think its just your use of words which is getting in the way. In my tradition system of Hinduism and Buddhism, we have rosaries called malas which can have chants called mantras said on them. But I wouldnt call them "Runes" because I just dont think it is correct terminology to use.

[Toby Stimpson]

You brat! How dare you insinuate that I don't! That is most certainly not funny!

You should SEE our house and how covered it is with sources, sources, sources!

IT'S IN EVERY FREAKING RUNE BOOK WE HAVE!!

DO NOT attack people here or call people names. People are being tolerant and kind, please show the same curtesy.

[Lovehound]

From my blog:

http://mysticheart.blogspot.com/2007/07/christian-runes-oh-yes.html

Thought I'd just share that.


Ultimately, I agree with Shanti. Fundamentally, the runes are an alphabet. You can't separate the concept of "rune" out of it's proper cultural context, that of an early Germanic alphabet/magical system. Even the word "Rune" comes from Old Norse. It's part of the whole Germanic worldview, and trying to adopt the word for another context won't remove the history attached to the word. Use the word "mystery" and there's no problems.

Now, back to your original point, can there be Christian spellcraft? Of course, Christian spells are some of the oldest spells we have. Can they be based around a rosary? Sure, why not. But that's not a rune.

I know the cultural context it came from. Why do you people talk down to me, like I don't know all this already? Personally, I think it's people just being damn stubborn and not being WILLING to be more flexible in their definitions.

THE MAN I LIVE WITH IS AN ODINSMAN! HE IS AN ASATRUAR! I thought I made that clear in one of the posts I made....

I myself have had contact with Freyja (and all the other Vanir) as well. My man and I are co-teaching a class based on Diana Paxson's book "Taking Up The Runes" and this is NOT the first time we have taught this class.

I KNOW ALL THIS STUFF ALREADY!

And not only that, but there IS historical precedent for DUAL BELIEF among our Scandinavian ancestors; there were people who worshipped the White Christ and Red Thor BOTH. So, it seems natural to me that there would be blending of magical practices as well. I call it "Santeria for white chicks."

::bangs head on desk::

I don't belong on this board. I really don't. I should never have posted this.

[TheWomanMonster]

I don't care who you live with, show a bit of bloody respect.

You posted, can't undo it, now do you want to have a discussion or not?
Just because people don't agree with your view point does not mean they are attacking you okay.


I happen to be of the understanding that the term Runes means alphabet of mystery as well... Maybe we're learning from different sources.

[Lunacie]

Hmmm, Im not really convinced.

To be honest Im with Lunacie and Shanti with this one. It could be called a runa...becasue the word Rune derives from the word Runa which means mystery...etc,. But how is a rosary mysertious? How is a prayer a mystery, a form of divination or sorcery?

I can somewhat see what you are getting at, a rosary is a powerful thing... BUT I think its just your use of words which is getting in the way. In my tradition system of Hinduism and Buddhism, we have rosaries called malas which can have chants called mantras said on them. But I would call them "Runes" because I just dont think it is correct terminology to use.

Don't you mean that you wouldn't call them "runes"?

Sorry, I lost the original point in trying to define the word "rune". Yes, I've even seen Pagan rosaries used to do spells and chants, I've just never heard them referred to as "runes" because I've never heard "rune" used to mean "mysteries".

[Lovehound]

DO NOT attack people here or call people names. People are being tolerant and kind, please show the same curtesy.

Um, excuse me, but who posted the message insinuating that I don't know what a dictionary is?

[TheWomanMonster]

Um, excuse me, but who posted the message insinuating that I don't know what a dictionary is?

if you want to get technical that wasn't name calling,
but perhaps it could have been worded differently.

[Toby Stimpson]

Don't you mean that you wouldn't call them "runes"?

Sorry, I lost the original point in trying to define the word "rune". Yes, I've even seen Pagan rosaries used to do spells and chants, I've just never heard them referred to as "runes" because I've never heard "rune" used to mean "mysteries".

GAH, yes yes I wouldnt... worst place for a typo :D:( hehe


Um, excuse me, but who posted the message insinuating that I don't know what a dictionary is?

It was an insinuation, it wasnt blatant. But you are right respect is key here... so maybe you should be the first to start :).

[Lunacie]

I know the cultural context it came from. Why do you people talk down to me, like I don't know all this already? Personally, I think it's people just being damn stubborn and not being WILLING to be more flexible in their definitions.

THE MAN I LIVE WITH IS AN ODINSMAN! HE IS AN ASATRUAR! I thought I made that clear in one of the posts I made....

I myself have had contact with Freyja (and all the other Vanir) as well. My man and I are co-teaching a class based on Diana Paxson's book "Taking Up The Runes" and this is NOT the first time we have taught this class.

I KNOW ALL THIS STUFF ALREADY!

And not only that, but there IS historical precedent for DUAL BELIEF among our Scandinavian ancestors; there were people who worshipped the White Christ and Red Thor BOTH. So, it seems natural to me that there would be blending of magical practices as well. I call it "Santeria for white chicks."

::bangs head on desk::

I don't belong on this board. I really don't. I should never have posted this.

No, you didn't say anything in this thread about knowing about the runes or living with someone who uses them. I have been explaining my understanding of the topic, not "talking down to you." You're being very sensitive and that's not a great way to have a real discussion.

Yelling at us and calling us names is not the way to have a real discussion either. Either do as I suggested and ask for the thread to be closed or go away and let the rest of us discuss the topic if you're not comfortable with us having a real discussion. :geez:


eta: sorry, reading back through I can see where you tried to impress us with you encyclopedic knowledge of the runes and how you live with someone who has made a study of them. The rest of my post stands as written.

[Shanti]

You brat! How dare you insinuate that I don't! That is most certainly not funny!

You should SEE our house and how covered it is with sources, sources, sources!

IT'S IN EVERY FREAKING RUNE BOOK WE HAVE!!
Excuse me.

I was speaking only about me.
Nor am I laughing about anything.
I do not insinuate, if you gave me a chance, you would find that out.

Asking for clarity would be a better approach than calling me names.

[ModernKnight]

I know the cultural context it came from. Why do you people talk down to me, like I don't know all this already? Personally, I think it's people just being damn stubborn and not being WILLING to be more flexible in their definitions.

I'm not talking down to you, I'm just trying to help you understand something that it seems you don't. Ultimately, I am just presenting information, what you do with it and how you take it is up to you.


THE MAN I LIVE WITH IS AN ODINSMAN! HE IS AN ASATRUAR! I thought I made that clear in one of the posts I made....

You didn't say anything about that here, and I haven't read any of your other posts. I don't normally come into the Christian Witchcraft forum.


I KNOW ALL THIS STUFF ALREADY!

If you already know that the concept of rune is inherently tied in with the Old Norse language and alphabet, then why did you say that rune just means mystery?


And not only that, but there IS historical precedent for DUAL BELIEF among our Scandinavian ancestors; there were people who worshipped the White Christ and Red Thor BOTH. So, it seems natural to me that there would be blending of magical practices as well. I call it "Santeria for white chicks."

What you describe in your blog isn't a blending of magical practices, what you're describing is a purely Christian practice. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not Norse in any way.


I don't belong on this board. I really don't. I should never have posted this.

Why not? There's some good ideas in your blog post. Other than the fact that you are getting annoyed by differing points of view, I don't see any reason you don't belong here. If at any point you felt that I was criticizing your intelligence or your right to be here, know that I never intended anything of the sort.

[Zibblsnrt]

You brat! How dare you insinuate that I don't! That is most certainly not funny!

You should SEE our house and how covered it is with sources, sources, sources!

IT'S IN EVERY FREAKING RUNE BOOK WE HAVE!!

First, to you in particular: do not call people names on this site. If you've got a problem with someone, deal with it civilly or report to the admins. If people disagree with or question your stance on something, there are far more civil methods to discuss it than namecalling or yelling. Consider making use of them.


Second, to everyone else in this thread: the latter sentence above holds. If you think you see flaming, then report it and let the admins deal with it (or not, should we find a post innocuous). Multiple attitude lectures in a thread usually do little more than derail it, and that's not cool.