The Keep Wicca Traditional Campaign...

[Kaylara]

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/7290/

What are your thoughts on this little campaign?
Personally, whining about intolerence in the mainstream, and then condemning your own is a little counter-productive, and self-destructive, but that's just me.

Kaylara

[SahuaDjet]

That was an interesting point of view I must say. I personally dont consider myself wiccan (but I do follow their beliefs) and that was like a slap in the face to those who are wiccan (as well as those who arent). There are people who read a book and think they are a bit more knowledgable than they should but that doesnt count for the majority of people who practice Witchcraft (at least I hope). I can see why this person is mad I just dont understand why he/she takes a negative approach. Or does this not seem negative and Iam reading too much into it?

ei caint sepll goud,
Sahu Djet

[Kaylara]

No, I thought that it was pretty negative, and kinda exemplifies all of those things that I dislike about the pagan community at large. (But definately not this pagan community.)

Kaylara

[Hestia]

Well I guess I can see this person's point of view but I'm just taken back by all the hostility behind it. I guess he/she /they would consider me one of those 'fluffy bunny' kinda witches since I don't consider myself wiccan but I've 'taken' some of their practices and called it mine. If they feel they need to uphold a certain standard then they are free to do it within their own tradition and community. I just don't think any one group should have the corner on enlightenment just because they stick to tradition. I saw a video recently of the Dalai Lama speaking on tolerance and diversity and one thing he said that really stuck with me is that any spirutual path that leads to your vision of the divine and allows you to become a positive human being is always the right path. Whether you find it by following strict tradition or by using your intuition as a guide I think is part of the joy of experiencing life. But of course that's just my humble/fluffy opinion.

BB:)
Hestia

[Armitage]

I wonder if these people realize keeping something traditional is almost the same as condemning it to stagnation...Or at least something that needs change and growth, like belief.

[BlackDragon]

Bring back the discipline to Wicca
Bring back the honor of the Priesthood
Bring back the "seeking" to the Seeker
Bring back the weight of the Oath
Bring back the Mysteries

I ask you, where did it go?

You do not have to be an initiated Trad Wiccan to do this. You do not have to be an initiated Trad Wiccan to value the Traditions of Wicca.

If this is so important for them, why shorten Traditional?

[Silverwitch]

I have to say that this site made me feel angry, which may not seem much, but I am very rarely provoked to anger. As I read through, I felt my heart sink, and that awful word 'fundamentalism' began pounding in my head.

I very nearly emailed the site, but then on reflection decided that I didn't want to have any thing to do with it. I would have liked to ask a) What is 'Traditional Wicca''? and b) What are the 'Old Ways'? which they are campaigning to keep?

The facts are that Traditional Wicca as we know it today, was founded by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's. He claimed that he had received Wicca via a self professed italian witch,(Aradia), whose coven/family had held the traditions secure down through the ages. I have to say, there is no proof of this, and Gerald was a notorious liar, besides being a dreadful lech! Having said that, it doesn't alter the fact that he instigated the most beautiful concept, and way of worship. One which has been added to, and expanded since then, by 'seekers on the Path', and will surely continue to be so.

Whew, sorry to be so strong about it, but if there's one thing I'm really intolerant about, it's intolerance! So anything that smacks of fundamentalism makes my blood boil. Feel better now I've got that off my chest. I probably need to go and lie down with a glass of Blues lemondade (preferably with a dash of something in it :bigredgri

[cydira]

Last I checked, there was that little bit about perfect love and trust involved in Wicca. That doesn't exactly look anything like perfect love or trust to me.

<sighs> I guess now I'm branded as a fluffy bunnie.

[amberlaine]

the Keep Wicca Traditional Campaign has alwasy made me sick.

I kind of wonder if they're going to start spouting, "Keep America White" next....

[Maggie]

Originally posted by BlackDragon
Bring back the discipline to Wicca
Bring back the honor of the Priesthood
Bring back the "seeking" to the Seeker
Bring back the weight of the Oath
Bring back the Mysteries

I ask you, where did it go?

You do not have to be an initiated Trad Wiccan to do this. You do not have to be an initiated Trad Wiccan to value the Traditions of Wicca.

If this is so important for them, why shorten Traditional?

I know some trad Wiccans, they feel the term Wicca has become so diluted that it's almost meaningless. I'm not sure they would agree with everything on this site,
but the two I know have suggested that the term neoWicca be used for all non-Traditional Wiccan paths and go with that. Even the initiation is a point of contention, they would say that one has to be initiated into a lineaged coven to be a Traditional Wiccan.

Regards,

Maggie

[bluecat]

Fundamentalism is not healthy, IMHO, no matter where it is found. If this were in reference to Christianity it would be called Zionist.

The idea if tradition and initiation thru lineage seems very closed, on one hand it does a certain aspect towards preservation of the tradition but on the other hand it is stifling and seems to put power in the hands of a few. That also seems to be yet another remnant of Christianity, that the Priesthood (in this case initiation into the Craft.)can only be handed down in a lineage from Peter. That seems to dismiss all that came before them. Who is their Primus and how would this lineage be confirmed? Seems almost cultist in that way.

Oh well, just my 2 pennies.

Blue

[Maggie]

Originally posted by bluecat
That seems to dismiss all that came before them. Who is their Primus and how would this lineage be confirmed? Seems almost cultist in that way.

Oh well, just my 2 pennies.

Blue



Traditional Wicca is held to have originated with Gardner, and all groups have descended from his circle somehow. Their point is that there is a set of traditions and beliefs that constitute Traditional Wicca--they aren't saying their way is the only way, just that the name denotes a particular set of beliefs and practices. Sorta like naming one brand of Christianity Baptist and another Lutheran......

Maggie

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Maggie


Traditional Wicca is held to have originated with Gardner, and all groups have descended from his circle somehow. Their point is that there is a set of traditions and beliefs that constitute Traditional Wicca--they aren't saying their way is the only way, just that the name denotes a particular set of beliefs and practices. Sorta like naming one brand of Christianity Baptist and another Lutheran......

Maggie

Something I am aware of Maggie. I had an aunt who had a very low opinion of that man she simply called, that Gardner person. ;) :)

Blue

[Maggie]

Originally posted by bluecat


Something I am aware of Maggie. I had an aunt who had a very low opinion of that man she simply called, that Gardner person. ;) :)

Blue

Uh, ok............

Maggie

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Maggie


Uh, ok............

Maggie

No worries, Maggie.

She was, like myself, a person of strong opinion. :)

Blue :cool:

[Fawn]

I thought it funny! If you read the responses to this post there the options cracked me up!!
"I'm a fluffy bunny and mad as hell" Come on you all--
The other "Whack a Fluffvy bunny on the head" No witch would ever do such a despicable thing and the person who posted it even stated that he/she was bored and frustrated. (I believe more bored than anything)

[Xois]

drivil trash and rubbish!

just another fundie!

[Xois]

I totally agree with this statement!



Silverwitch:
The facts are that Traditional Wicca as we know it today, was founded by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's. He claimed that he had received Wicca via a self professed italian witch,(Aradia), whose coven/family had held the traditions secure down through the ages. I have to say, there is no proof of this, and Gerald was a notorious liar, besides being a dreadful lech! Having said that, it doesn't alter the fact that he instigated the most beautiful concept, and way of worship. One which has been added to, and expanded since then, by 'seekers on the Path', and will surely continue to be so.

[Dria El]

Originally posted by Silverwitch


The facts are that Traditional Wicca as we know it today, was founded by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's. He claimed that he had received Wicca via a self professed italian witch,(Aradia), whose coven/family had held the traditions secure down through the ages.


I'm not going to debate whether Gardner started Wicca or not because even if he did, I believe it's truly a pointless debate. It's changed so much in the last 60 years. And besides, Dorieen Valiente wrote alot of the stuff we consider his. But I digress...

And just to let you know. Gardner was initiated by an old English woman named Dorothy Clutterbuck (Old Dorothy) whom he met in a Rosicrucian Theatre in Christchurch, England. He was initiated in 1939 to a practicing coven that met in the New Forest area of Britain.

And Aradia is a book about Italian witchcraft by G. Leland, originally published in 1890.

Informatively,
Dria El

[gunner]

yes he/she/it does sound rather like a christian fundy but it doesn't trip my trigger, by now you've likely figured out who my "patron" is, mithras, a god of the roman legions and in his earliest form mitra who with his twin brother was the keeper of order in the universe. but mithras never claimed to be "supreme" so we are a tolerant lot for the most part.
"mithras guide and guard you all"

[gunner]

ain't that the bloke with the shovel and rake?

but seriously i'd reckon there's more real knowledge of who we are and what our traditions are here than can be found in most places and "fluffy bunnies" why get his/her knickers in a twist, we all had to start somewhere. i'd say this person, i'll say "him" for convenience's sake is annoyed because nobody is recognising his true importance as he sees it and following his version of the one true word. too bad, when you go seeking you go where the path leads you and as in my last post, my path is not his. my beliefs came from the path i've followed much of my life. like several others here, "standing guard on the wall" so others can live in peace and follow their own paths. i'd suggest he might let folks do just that.

[Silverwitch]

Originally posted by Dria El


I'm not going to debate whether Gardner started Wicca or not because even if he did, I believe it's truly a pointless debate. It's changed so much in the last 60 years. And besides, Dorieen Valiente wrote alot of the stuff we consider his. But I digress...

And just to let you know. Gardner was initiated by an old English woman named Dorothy Clutterbuck (Old Dorothy) whom he met in a Rosicrucian Theatre in Christchurch, England. He was initiated in 1939 to a practicing coven that met in the New Forest area of Britain.

And Aradia is a book about Italian witchcraft by G. Leland, originally published in 1890.

Informatively,
Dria El


Won't argue Dria El, but I knew Doreen (Valiente) for many years, (and what a smashing lady she was), and the earlier initiation of 1939 is questionable and debatable. Old Gerry had a wonderful knack of embroidering the truth!! As for Aradia, (I know Lelands book well), Gerald was most insistant that he had actually met her; that she was a direct descendent of the 1890 witches that Leyland spoke of and had been initiated again by her.

Things that happened in the past are very difficult to establish, even by people who remember them. Each person will bring their own perception to the event. I just get a little worried that Gerald and Doreen will end up as saints, and that Wicca will become the Gospel according to them both! Yuk, sounds very Christian to
me!! :bigredgri

[Silverwitch]

Originally posted by gunner
ain't that the bloke with the shovel and rake?

but seriously i'd reckon there's more real knowledge of who we are and what our traditions are here than can be found in most places and "fluffy bunnies" why get his/her knickers in a twist, we all had to start somewhere. i'd say this person, i'll say "him" for convenience's sake is annoyed because nobody is recognising his true importance as he sees it and following his version of the one true word. too bad, when you go seeking you go where the path leads you and as in my last post, my path is not his. my beliefs came from the path i've followed much of my life. like several others here, "standing guard on the wall" so others can live in peace and follow their own paths. i'd suggest he might let folks do just that.

I'm with you on this one Gunner :bigredgri

[Moonwillow]

I'm with you Fawn, I read a bunch of those rants and raves. What a joke. Sounds to me like the person(s) who put this page together was bored and just wanted to see how many people he/she could piss off, or wanted to just see how many responses they could get in a day.

The only thing I agree with, that saddens me is the all the "Hollywood Wicca" that I see now. You know the ones who figure its all about glitz and magic and spells, you mean there's more to it than that?

[Dria El]

Originally posted by Silverwitch


I just get a little worried that Gerald and Doreen will end up as saints, and that Wicca will become the Gospel according to them both! Yuk, sounds very Christian to
me!! :bigredgri


Yeah, I doubt that will ever happen though, especially with as much as everyone puts them (especially him) down.

Dria El

[Kaylara]

"...Not only that I intend to clean up wicca and remove all the morons from it."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"..I think Wiccans are just as bad as christians."
"I mean come on oh everyone's religion is correct. What kind of hippie crap is that?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Well lets see you are ALL wiccans are tree hugging, hippie, non-confrontational, culture stealing morons."
"You are all idiots"
"...So these morons accept that they are classified as the same thing just because they want to feel attached to them."
"Believing that all religions are true is just a way of indoctrinating everyone and being non-confrontational."
"Teaming up with the god sendin' negative energy your tree huggin way"
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...but the fact is that they would beat you hippies if you ever tried to classify them with yourselves. The only person who would classify him/herself with a wiccan is a complete moron."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You steal customs and gods when you take them as your own."
"...and people should look to their own teenie bopper pledges rather than looking to other religions for support"
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Also a 13 year old tree hugging goth has no right to call themselves anything because they are in it for a fad and not because they care................. if all else fails become a wiccan then you can believe
whatever you want and just steal everyone's culture"
"I am not nor have i ever been enough of a moron to be a wiccan."
"what i am saying is that before you and your little outcast high school clan decide to become wiccan."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You know why I haven't found faith? because I'm not gonna be like you tree hugging faith changing wiccans and go for the first thing because its the cool thing to do then whine about being persecuted all the time by the mean christians."
"It's way better to say that you don't know than to say that you do and then end up "Growing out of it" as I'm sure you all will because you don't have enough conviction."
"what you morons think about changing your beliefs when it stopps working for you is such crap."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Different post,.. can't find the date/day of this post,.. same board though.)

"Basically its just reading something and saying you believe in it and if its stealing someone elses gods and magic then so be it you people don't care just like the christians didn't care when they were stealing culture.
In conclusion you are all morons"
"I say that you won't remain wiccans forever because you don't hold religion sacred in any way."
"I really hate the wiccans that are just in it for a fad and then change their belifs whenever they feel compelled to do so." (Just mentioning that nfjmanager has said/implied repeatedly that all Wiccans are in it for the "fad")

found on another site... Kinda pissed me off.

Kaylara

[MystyPines]

I just read the Geocities site listed. What a bunch of cr*p. It's not worth getting our panties in a bunny, I mean in a bunch....he he he. :)

[gunner]

well...., i don't wear panties but otherwise i'd agree with mystypines. not worth getting bothered about. we once discussed leading wiccans as "like herding cats", if this boy is planning to "clean up wicca" he'd want to pack several lunches, he'll be busy a while

[Kaylara]

All I have to say to that is:

"Meow?"

Kaylara

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Armitage
I wonder if these people realize keeping something traditional is almost the same as condemning it to stagnation...Or at least something that needs change and growth, like belief.

I'm a member of a Traditionalist Path. Our Tradition remains untouched and unchanged (because we keep records of such things) at least since the 1600s, when our rituals and lore were first put to paper. The last "great change" was in 1947, when our ritual and lore was translated from old-Welsh into modern English. Stagnate? No. We realize that we have a living, breathing organization/organism ~ and we give it room to grow. There's a difference between honoring the elders and suffocating something to death.:o

[Earth Walker]

Is there a lot of literature on the Gardnerians?
I would like to learn more on this path.



Never rollerskate in a buffalo herd. :D

[Dria El]

Originally posted by Mystique
Is there a lot of literature on the Gardnerians?
I would like to learn more on this path.


Never rollerskate in a buffalo herd. :D

Well, I don't know much about that path but I suppose you could start with Gardner's own books 'High Magic's Aid' and 'Witchcraft Today'. Oh, and I think there might be one more called 'The Meaning of Witchcraft' (or something like that).

Helpingly,
Dria El

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Mystique
Is there a lot of literature on the Gardnerians?
I would like to learn more on this path.
Never rollerskate in a buffalo herd. :D

As Traditionalists, like 'my' group, you won't find a lot of information "out there" ~ it's better to find someone who is Gardnerian and go from there.

Here's the most in-depth Gardnerian website I've ever been able to find.

http://www.gardnerian.net/

[bananabrain]

Originally posted by bluecat
If this were in reference to Christianity it would be called Zionist.

er, bluecat... what on *earth* do you mean? the label 'zionist' is used by just about everyone from mad neonazis to, well, normal people these days, without very much attempt to define one's terms. rather like that old, ghastly and misleading chestnut, 'judaeo-christian', as if there were such a thing...

b'shalom

bananabrain

[SeekerSandy]

I see mentioned a tie between traditional wicca and xianity with the priesthood class. in the first few centuries of existance, there was no priesthood class in xianity. There were elders, deacons and bishops. Priests were created later by Saul of Taursus who was one sick little jewish fellow.
Now comes Gardner and a priesthood class.
nuff said.....:smash:

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by SeekerSandy
Now comes Gardner and a priesthood class.
nuff said.....:smash:

Our tradition has had room for a priesthood "class" for as long as anyone can remember (we were first put on paper in the 1600s) ~ and we were closed family traditionalists until 1792.

Then agian, this thread is all about Wicca ~ and I'm not. 8O

[bananabrain]

Originally posted by SeekerSandy
I see mentioned a tie between traditional wicca and xianity with the priesthood class. in the first few centuries of existance, there was no priesthood class in xianity. There were elders, deacons and bishops. Priests were created later by Saul of Taursus who was one sick little jewish fellow.
Now comes Gardner and a priesthood class.

with all due respect to gardner, the word 'priest' in english means very different things to different people. priesthood in the generic sense of 'representative/officer of the deity/religion) has existed as far back as organised religion. catholic priests are not the same as coptic or other eastern orthodox priests like the armenians, russians or greeks etc and christian priests are not the same as rabbis. rabbis are not the same as the jewish priestly class, known as KoHaNIM (from where we get the common surname 'cohen'). the priestly class in judaism were specifically concerned with the workings of the Temple and the Tabernacle. they and their obligations still exist today, although the Temple and Tabernacle don't. if you want to know more about this, go to the site http://www.cohen-levi.org which has a lot of information and sources. however, be aware that this site is *specifically* concerned with judaism and has nothing to say about the priesthood of any other religion.

anything christianity (especially the writings attributed to saul of tarsus) has to say about the jewish priesthood (which the 'new' testament refers to as 'the scribes' or sadducees) not to mention other aspects of judaism should be viewed in the light of his and the early church fathers' desire to denigrate judaism and distance themselves from it (i shall assume that your description of him was not intended to be anti-jewish). hence the term 'pharisee' in the new testament has a particular, archetypal connotation of hypocrisy which has nothing to do with the groups who originally used those labels.

historically and jewishly speaking, the labels of pharisee (hebrew: MeFaRSIM) and sadducee (TZaDoKiM) were two of the competing factions within jewish society at the time, the former being the ancestors of normative rabbinic judaism as practiced today and the latter being the heirs of the family of the solomonic high priest zadok, who adhered to a strictly temple-based system. when the romans destroyed the Temple the sadducees' way of doing things did not survive, whilst the pharisees were able to adapt to a world without a Temple, or, indeed without a jewish state.

it is my understanding that some aspects of priesthood in traditional wicca predate christianity and have no relation to it, whilst others have been influenced by the role of the clergy within european christian society. obviously, i can't determine how the traditional coven gardner was initiated into developed, so it's probably a bugger to work out exactly what was what. however, gardner himself was a child of his time as far as i can work out (ie a big ole early C20 naturist) so i think he was open to many influences besides this. consequently it may be difficult to work out exactly what comes from which tradition, even in BTW.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bluecat]

Originally posted by bananabrain


er, bluecat... what on *earth* do you mean? the label 'zionist' is used by just about everyone from mad neonazis to, well, normal people these days, without very much attempt to define one's terms. rather like that old, ghastly and misleading chestnut, 'judaeo-christian', as if there were such a thing...

b'shalom

bananabrain



I know bananabrain, sometimes it is often much more expedient for me to speak from a more common platform. There was no exclusion intended. It's sort of lke saying "All my relations," in a reverse manner.

Thank You

Blue :cool:

[bananabrain]

erp. do you mean all your relatives are jewish? or do you mean all your relatives are rednecks? or do you mean something else entirely that completely went over my head?

please explain a little further - i am confused....

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Twig]

I have had dealings with a yahoo club called "Anti Fluffbunny headquarters". There main idea was to cause discontent and trouble with certain wiccan and neopagan clubs. the bunny with the slash? That was their club picture! This looks just like something they would put out. :mad::mad:

My advice, don't waste brain cells reading it. Each persons path is their own.

Peace,
Twig

[bluecat]

Originally posted by bananabrain
erp. do you mean all your relatives are jewish? or do you mean all your relatives are rednecks? or do you mean something else entirely that completely went over my head?

please explain a little further - i am confused....

b'shalom

bananabrain

"All my relations," is a Native American saying that includes all of the Universe, plants, animals, people, rocks, everything. We are all connected with everyone and everything. By saying that in reverse I meant that I was speaking from a single chosen perspective in the interest of simplicity. I know of no Jewish relatives in my family, although there are more rednecks than I would like to claim. :rolleyes:

My apologies for seeming confusing, it was not my intent.

I do know that Zionism is quite common, even though it may have different faces for different cultures.

Now that I have totally confused everyone ;), have a glass of lemonade and let life flow over you like a wonderful piece of art.

Blue :cool:

[bananabrain]

Originally posted by bluecat
I do know that Zionism is quite common, even though it may have different faces for different cultures.

in that case, are you saying that zionism is the same thing as 'fundamentalism' or is a synonym for religious intolerance? i can tell you that it's a difficult word to define and means different things to different people. i'd regard myself as a zionist, personally, but for me and most other jews it means someone who believes that the physical land of israel is *not an optional part* of the self-determination of the jewish people and that the nation-state of israel is *somehow* part of that. beyond that, it is an umbrella term for any number of subgroups which may be economically, religiously or politically left or right wing or anywhere on all three axes. for example, in zionist terms, i'd describe myself as economically centrist and religiously centre-right. however, i am *also* very dovish in terms of the peace process, such as it was. anyway, if you're using the word as i suspect, i think you may be incorrect in doing so.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bluecat]

While Zionism is normally recognized as an international movement for a cohesive Jewish state there are others, who are not Jewish, who use it to mean a cohesive state of a different sort.

For the pupose of this discussion I will use the word Zealot instead of Zionist. Also, life is short, relax, on this side of the puddle many things take on different cultural and regional meanings and while something may be incorrect in one context it is not incorrect in another. For example the Mormons believe that Zion will be in the region of Missouri, USA, and their Zion has nothing to do with the Jewish Faith at all. There are many people who believe that you and I and many others, including others with similar beliefs to theirs, are going to a very bad place because we are not a member of their church. While on the surface that is zealous fundamentalism, it is also Zionistic in its own form because it seeks a the same kind of cohesive religious state; it is an interpretation that is "outside the box."

Blue

[bananabrain]

cheers, BC - that makes a lot more sense now. i think i would probably agree with you about the use of 'zion' in a non-jewish context. the dutch reformed church in south africa did much the same. obviously these people are welcome to believe what they like, but the jewish religious sense of the word is *very* specific indeed and has a great deal to do with jerusalem. and i don't mean 'the new jerusalem' by that. i could go into etymological detail about the hebrew word itself but i think i shall restrain myself. what is known as modern zionism includes the religious overtones if you happen to be a religious zionist.

unfortunately, i think that to use the word 'zionist' in the context that you're talking about will inevitably confuse people. jewish zionists have enough trouble explaining that no, it's not some 'jewish form of nazism' (the most UTTER bollocks :mad::mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: GRRRRRRRR) without it being used as a synonym for, for example, places like contemporary afghanistan or C15th spain or the sort of place farrakhan and his maniacs would like to live. political zionism in the israeli sense does not seek to establish a specifically *religious* state, just a jewish one. though some elements of it either would want to or wouldn't mind if it was. basically, the word is overloaded enough by people with axes to grind. it doesn't need any more baggage - it's got enough problems.

this goes into the same box as sadducee, pharisee, zealot (contemporary with them) and that fantastically annoying phrase 'chosen people'. all of them are MIStranslations and distortions of our sacred texts. people make translations and translations of translations and then - to pick a random example - thousands of herbalists get burned as witches. and guess what? it all gets blamed on that useful old scapegoat cliché, the 'vengeful G!D' of the so-called 'old' testament. DUH.

sorry to rant - it's only my 5th post and normally i'm quite restrained. i've just had enough recently of people quoting our own stuff at me and telling me how awful it is when they have no clue how the text even works. plus my interfaith dialogue work is suffering particularly badly from the spectacularly pearshaped situation in the middle east - i'd love to relax about it, but people are dying. and i mean people on both sides. how about some of that lemonade and a comfy chair instead?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bluecat]

bananabrain you are most welcome to this place and you are also most welcome to the lemonade adn comfy chair. Our discussion has been a pleasant experience. Thank You.

Blue

P.S. Love your nick! ;) :D :cool:

[bananabrain]

...*adjusts cushions*

cheers for that. see you around the board.

b'shalom

bananabrain