Shamanism and hallucinogens.

[Philosophia]

Hello,

While reading about Shamanism, I came across this interesting topic. Is it a requirement to use hallucinogens? If you need to use them, do you take them alone? What about the dangers? Is it really safe to use them?

If I'm asking too many questions, please feel free to tell me. :)

[Shanti]

For me, I am against taking them for journeying.
I want to know my journeys are real and not some drug induced chemical reaction of my biological brain!
And IMO only, I feel if one can not journey without the hallucinogen, its because they cant journey period.

[Juniper138]

It is not a requirement. Many people use them for certain extra special Journeys, like initiation Journeys. I would NEVER suggest using them alone, I would have a sober and clever friend guard me, and do my research on each plant before I ever used it. It you can, find someone who has used that plant before to give advice.

http://www.walkingthehedge.org/Naturewitch101table.htm#TrancePlants

[Simply Puzzled]

Is it a requirement to use hallucinogens?


By now, you should know better than to ask this question. Some shamans use hallucinogenics, others don't. In fact, among the peoples the word shaman originated from, the strongest drug you are probably going to see a shaman uses is a shot or two of vodka, just enough to loosen them up without getting drunk.

If you need to use them, do you take them alone? What about the dangers? Is it really safe to use them?

This isn't a legal disclaimer, this is what I honestly believe (and, without going into specifics, I am not talking out my ass here): Just say no to drugs, unless you are being trained by a spirit worker from a culture that makes use of specific drugs that s/he is highly trained in. As I mentioned earlier, The Way of the Shaman has a great account of Harner's initiation into shamanism via drugs. Read it and pay attention to all the safety precautions that were taken (such as muzzling the dogs) and then notice how he still could have died. Is someone taking that drug in suburbia going to be guaranteed the neighbors' dogs won't start yelping and drive them insane? It's not a risk I'm willing to take.

By taking drugs, you are putting your health, life, and freedom at risk. Compared with the many safe and effective tools we have for obtaining trance, why would you risk it? Me, I'll take a drumming CD.

If I'm asking too many questions, please feel free to tell me. :)

Keep asking questions, but be sure you're applying the answers you learn here to new material.

[Philosophia]

By now, you should know better than to ask this question. Some shamans use hallucinogenics, others don't. In fact, among the peoples the word shaman originated from, the strongest drug you are probably going to see a shaman uses is a shot or two of vodka, just enough to loosen them up without getting drunk.

I ask this question to gain a better understanding of this area because, from what I can gather, shamanism is a huge topic that covers a variety of different beliefs. So asking if hallucinogens are a requirement tends to be based on my readings and other people's opinions (in another forum, when shamanism was brought up, a member stated that hallucinogens were a requirement). This was why it was asked.

[RavensEye]

Is it a requirement to use hallucinogens?
nope so far in my journeys I have not taken any, nor do I see the need to in the future.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Hello , Philosophia :

I find this an astute , and pertinent question...

There are those in the modern world , both in tribal , and individual
practice , who find certain Plant Spirets , to be an aid to their journeying...

I myself , have not ingested those substances , for many , many years...

Yet , yes , I have done medicine journeying with the peyote spirit...

Both in the circle at the Peyote Way Church , and on my own , in the
desert...I lived in a lodge , and journeyed other times...With no ill effects ,
and many blessings shared with the Spiret World...

I contacted the Underworld Spirets , many moons ago , and the mycelliom
network of earth , via the cubensis mushroom...

I have been offered to sit in Di'me Circles , or ingest other substances , during
sweats , or with friends , around the fire...

But after two DMT experiences , almost 20 years ago , the Spirets said to me :

" No more...You don't need it anymore..."

I listened...Now , I utilize other methodologies...

I hope that helps...Thank you for your question...:)

[Simply Puzzled]

I ask this question to gain a better understanding of this area because, from what I can gather, shamanism is a huge topic that covers a variety of different beliefs. (emphasis add) So asking if hallucinogens are a requirement tends to be based on my readings and other people's opinions (in another forum, when shamanism was brought up, a member stated that hallucinogens were a requirement). This was why it was asked.

Anytime someone says that something is required for shamanism, your bullshit detector should start going off. I really think you are probably at a point where you need to start looking at some academic texts on shamanism to get a better idea of it. The people on this board can only type so much, and anthropological books can give you primary source information instead of filtering it through others, removing you a step from the source. If you have a university with a good library close by, I highly suggest that you start going to the shamanism books within the anthropology section (those tend to be the best to start with) and reading them. If you don't have access to a university library (and almost public universities are open to the public), we can talk about specific books you can get via inter-libarary loan from your public library. The books tend to be dense and annoyingly condescending of the topic they are discussing, but they are valuable.

[Philosophia]

Anytime someone says that something is required for shamanism, your bullshit detector should start going off. I really think you are probably at a point where you need to start looking at some academic texts on shamanism to get a better idea of it. The people on this board can only type so much, and anthropological books can give you primary source information instead of filtering it through others, removing you a step from the source. If you have a university with a good library close by, I highly suggest that you start going to the shamanism books within the anthropology section (those tend to be the best to start with) and reading them. If you don't have access to a university library (and almost public universities are open to the public), we can talk about specific books you can get via inter-libarary loan from your public library. The books tend to be dense and annoyingly condescending of the topic they are discussing, but they are valuable.

Unfortunately, my library has nearly zero books on anything shamanistic. We only have "The encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom: the Celtic's Shaman guide" by Caitlin and John Matthews, and no other. So, right now, I am reliant on the internet and what I read on here. Getting books from a university is very hard for me right now because I'm not in any of my states universities (I'm in a Queensland uni. right now).

I would love to know any books that I can read to help me in this topic.

[Lolair]

Unfortunately, my library has nearly zero books on anything shamanistic. We only have "The encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom: the Celtic's Shaman guide" by Caitlin and John Matthews, and no other. So, right now, I am reliant on the internet and what I read on here. Getting books from a university is very hard for me right now because I'm not in any of my states universities (I'm in a Queensland uni. right now).

I would love to know any books that I can read to help me in this topic.
My advice would be to stay out of the occult and religion sections and instead look for hidden gems in the botany(gardening) section of your library. I was just looking for books on some native berries when I found a whole row of books on shamanism and hallucinogens. Quite a good surprise!

Some books to take a look at: Hallucinogens and Shamanism (http://www.shamanism.org/products/bk102.html) by Michael Harner and Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy (http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Archaic-Techniques-Ecstasy-Bollingen/dp/0691119422/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-2980201-8505444?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185037970&sr=8-2) by Mircea Eliade

Drugs are good and can be aids, but many are also dangerous. Keep in mind that both ancient and modern shamans are well informed about the drugs they use - dosage, experience, uses... If you are not informed about a hallucinogen and what it will do to you, don't take it - especially not alone! Here's a good site that works as an faq: Recreational Drug Information (http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/index.htm)

[DoktorSick]

What difference does it make?
As long as you get something out of the experience.
You have to find out works for you and gets you the results you want.

[Juniper138]

What difference does it make?
As long as you get something out of the experience.
You have to find out works for you and gets you the results you want.

The difference is using drugs and plants in ritual, without really understanding what you are doing, without being careful, without having someone watch over you, without doing the research first ... can get you run over, can have the guy next door call the cops, or put you in the hospital for an overdose or allergic reaction, can mess you up for the rest of your life in many different ways.
The "result" people who are truly studying Shamanism are looking for is WISDOM, so its best to use your methods WISELY.

[Simply Puzzled]

What difference does it make?
As long as you get something out of the experience.
You have to find out works for you and gets you the results you want.

You're absolutely right. Why didn't I think of that? There is no difference between having a healthy, safe experience under a controlled, self-induced trance that you can end at will; and having a trance at a specific level for a pre-set amount of time, during which you go crazy, attempt to kill yourself, and/or suffer permanent mental damage. It's completely the same thing.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Two fold answer here :

1. I also advocate safety...especially knowing as much as you can about what you are ingesting...and how it will affect you...I am not a big one on needing a person overseeing the experience...that is an overrated need in my eyes...I , for one , never had problems...seems like a lot of protests , are coming from those with little , or no
experience , in this methodology...

2. The original shamans , from whatever tradition...did it by their own choice , most likely alone , trial and error...As far as I am , or ever was concerned...If death occurs ,
in the name of research for the common good of all...oh , well...I'll be back...

Madness ? If someone considers modern society sane...GIVE ME MADNESS...

[Shanti]

Two fold answer here :

1. I also advocate safety...especially knowing as much as you can about what you are ingesting...and how it will affect you...I am not a big one on needing a person overseeing the experience...that is an overrated need in my eyes...I , for one , never had problems...seems like a lot of protests , are coming from those with little , or no
experience , in this methodology...

2. The original shamans , from whatever tradition...did it by their own choice , most likely alone , trial and error...As far as I am , or ever was concerned...If death occurs ,
in the name of research for the common good of all...oh , well...I'll be back...

Madness ? If someone considers modern society sane...GIVE ME MADNESS...Shocking but nice, I agree with you!!!!!!! :hahugh:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Blessings , Shanti...

[Simply Puzzled]

I , for one , never had problems...seems like a lot of protests , are coming from those with little , or no experience , in this methodology...

Since I have been the most vocal advocate against the use of drugs, I can only assume you are referring to me. If this is the case, you've never met me and are not in a position to make this assertion. Secondly, despite the falsehood of your assertion, you are arguing the person and not the question.


The original shamans , from whatever tradition...did it by their own choice , most likely alone , trial and error...As far as I am , or ever was concerned...If death occurs ,
in the name of research for the common good of all...oh , well...I'll be back...
Madness ? If someone considers modern society sane...GIVE ME MADNESS...

First of all, traditional shamans do not have to rely on trial and error. They are taught in a tradition that has been going on for thousands of years, and the testing has been done by people before them. They are instructed in well-known methods. Secondly, I don't think advocating a stance of "oh well, I'll be back" is a good idea. Focusing solely on the magical and not going into the mundane (like the effect on people around you), the last couple years of my life have been vastly more productive magically than the first 20 or so. Personally, I don't want to have to start all over again learning not to shit myself because I decided to take a short cut with a plant.

Anyway, your quote about madness may earn you some points because it sounds good, but there is a big difference between the madness of D.C., and say, throwing yourself through a glass window from a 3rd story apartment. Advocating use of drugs on-line where you cannot guarantee where and how the person is getting them, the quality of them, the ability of the person to handle them, and numerous other factors is irresponsible at least, and it puts you in serious legal jeopardy should someone follow your advice. If you have a personal student whom you can instruct face-to-face, go for it. But this is a completely different environment, and I think you need to consider your words much more carefully.

[Juniper138]

One also has to realize in this day and age, people are not as likely to be taking said drugs or plants in the traditional environment, nature, away from other people. They are probably going to be doing this in a more urban setting. As stated above, someone may just go through a 3rd story window, or wander into traffic, or climb in to the neighbor's yard.
Even if they are doing this out in nature someplace, many people nowadays have little to no understanding of the wild. As a hedgewitch, I do have that understanding ... but I could bore you to death with many tales of pagan friends wanting to follow game trails after dark, wandering barefoot into patches of poison ivy, drinking lake water and getting parasites, wanting to track down a wolf packs den just to look at it, etc. And these were people not on hallucinogenic drugs.
If you have done such drugs alone and survived, thats wonderful. But do not count on everyone else being so lucky.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Two fold answer here :

1. I also advocate safety...especially knowing as much as you can about what you are ingesting...and how it will affect you...I am not a big one on needing a person overseeing the experience...that is an overrated need in my eyes...I , for one , never had problems...seems like a lot of protests , are coming from those with little , or no experience , in this methodology...

2. The original shamans , from whatever tradition...did it by their own choice , most likely alone , trial and error...As far as I am , or ever was concerned...If death occurs , in the name of research for the common good of all...oh , well...I'll be back...

Madness ? If someone considers modern society sane...GIVE ME MADNESS...


Well...to begin...

1. So nice you took my quote out of context , Simply Puzzled...
That may help your argument , or other's against what I said ,
but that was not the reality of what I said...

I have quoted myself , to show that what I said , which I stand by , is many of the protests seemed to come from those who had little or no experience with shamanic journeying on their own...

And were suggesting and stating the neccessity of doing it with a guide...

We come from different generations...I know , from observing , and personal communication with , there are many on this site alone , that are like me , and did much of our journeying solo...

As the Who said " My Generation"......

Casualities ? Oh yeah...Nowhere near as many as even one of the insane wars since I grew up....We take risks going outside every day...Hell , I have to hitch to town , every time I go...even for me , even where I live , at my age , that is a
risk...And if I state I hitch into town , am I advocating that for others , or everyone...NO , that is every indivdual being's choice , being responsible for their destiny...

I shall not allow you , anyone else here , Or the legal system or the government , make me babysit someone else's butt...Their life , their decisions...

There shall always be , as there have always been , those who have not survived , due to their stupidity...

As I began with , in the above quote..." I also advocate safety "...

I was speaking from my experiences , and shall continue to do so , here and on other posts...enuff said...

Other than..." Come On , Folks , Be Smart...Don't Make People Like Me Babysit Your Butt..."

2. As I stated in my quote above , I said " Original Shamans"...
I have good reason to believe the Key word there , is " Original"...
Who had nothing to rely on , but the word of " Spiret Helpers" , if they had contacted them , or trial and error...

At that time there was no tradition , nor methodology...

Actually , very similar to " My Generation"...there were not those available to us...unless you were rich...We were the Explorers , the Psychedelic Shamans of our time...no one was there to be the guides...
WE had to be our own guides...some made it , some didn't...

Your personal choice of how you , or anyone else here or elsewhere operates...
MUST be , their choice , and their choice alone...

As John Lily , Tim Leary , and many others , of my generation , became scapegoats , for those who cannot handle responsibility...I shall never allow that to be done , to me...I will not be yours , nor anyone else's scapegoat...

As far as the statement about madness...See my statements above...

Never once , did I ADVOCATE drug use...not once...refer to my original quote about safety...However , my statement about MY CHOICE...

" If you consider modern society sane , give me MADNESS..."

I stand by , without reserve...And I repeat , to anyone here...

Urban , or rural setting..." I also , advocate safety " ( Original Quote )

Dont make me your #@*&%#* Babysitter...

[David19]

I don't have any experience with shamanic practices, so I don't people should use hallucinogens at first, but I do have respect for the shamans who do use them and know what they are doing.

From what I've read, it seems that to use plants, you have to really understand the plant and be able to communicate with it.

Raven Kaldera has a good section on the use of plants in Shamanism, here (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/herbal/index.html)

[Juniper138]

Shawn Blackwolf...
Has it occurred to you that people as young as 13 or 14 read this forum? I'm sure that if some teenager was to get hurt or die from taking your advice to try these things out on their own, you wouldn't be saying "well they were stupid anyways" and if you would say that...
Well. Enough said.

[Simply Puzzled]

Well. Enough said.

Excellent posts Juniper, but I think your ending is about right. Obviously I don't have the power to close this thread, but I think enough has been said on both sides (especially by me). If you guys want to move on to a new subject, I promise to behave. :boing:

[Toby Stimpson]

Im kind of entering this topic a bit late, but it certainly is an interesting thought. I mean we all know that there is an idea out there of drug use linked with some shamans in the past... so Im just wondering, at what line point is a line drawn in modern society?

I mean modern praticitioners who do decide to rely on drugs or use them in practice...at what point is it effective and what point does it become abusive and thus not really valid?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

NEVER...NEVER ...NEVER...Did I advise anyone to take them without a guide...

I stated I felt it was overrated...the NEED...My opinion , put together
with a sentence before that stating my feelings about SAFETY...

PLEASE...read what someone says...not what you want to read into it

[H.P. Dolamite]

Shawn Blackwolf...
Has it occurred to you that people as young as 13 or 14 read this forum? I'm sure that if some teenager was to get hurt or die from taking your advice to try these things out on their own, you wouldn't be saying "well they were stupid anyways" and if you would say that...
Well. Enough said.


Thats where parents come in, who should be paying attention to their children.

So the phrase "well they were stupid anyways" would in this case, be said about the parents/guardians. Not the kids.

[imapepper]

I don't think they're neccesary. I mean, I have access to peyote and have been invited by a tribe as well as individually to partake in 'journeys', but my response is always the same. I see, hear, and feel beyond this world already, and even that sometimes is intimidating for me, I don't think I need to go further down the rabbit hole! I've seen my physical body and the walls of my bedroom melt and disappear as an entity approached, and I wasn't on drugs, I'd hate to think of what would happen to me if I took something. I've often thought if I went any further I'd probably never return or be clinically insane for the remainder of my life, so I don't think you need drugs to have these astral, mind bending experiences and awakenings.

I think it's possible to journey without the drugs, it probably takes more time and practice, but at least you'll be more confident about your experience, as well as safer. Drugs are just too risky and taking a hallucinogen for the purpose of a spiritual journey to me seems so lacking in authenticity. Maybe if you can't journey the old fashion way without the drugs, you're just not ready to 'go there' and using a drug, might be a very, very, very negative experience for you, which might include death. Every person I've ever known who had a bad trip were, a lot of times, people who didn't have the spiritual capacity outside of drugs for any discovery of deity or spirit.

I would say take at your own risk.

[riftdrifter]

:uhhhhh: I'm no expert but I do believe that for the untalented novice the plants given to us by the same nature that created us are there to teach us how to become interdimensional space monkeys I know that when I tried them it was the most mindblowing load of knowledge I had ever come across . . . and I do plan to do it again. and if I die or if I am harmed then it is done and I did it to mysef. When I do use "drugs" its not for sheer pleasure or escape its for knowledge and thats how it should be not that I'm against any one elses other uses I just dont beleive that you'll get the results you want. typically the pleasure and escape makes everything else just suck . . . but the knowledge I've recieved makes me a better person I feel. however do and say what you will and mind your own buisness. It is a beings own decision to do these things and no one elses, and yes after I did use the substance aided travel I did find it much easier to return without.

[latin_baller]

I know lots of Native Americans used pain to induce visions. Most notably the Aztecs.

[David19]

I know lots of Native Americans used pain to induce visions. Most notably the Aztecs.

That's what I've heard too, there's also the Sundance of the Lakota people (http://www.angelfire.com/co/MedicineWolf/lakota/sundance.html).

Also, this site has some interesting info on the Sundance (http://www.lakotawritings.com/The_Sun_Dance_Ritual.htm).

Some modern people have also used BDSM to induce trance states, visions, etc.

For more see:

http://www.sensuoussadie.com/spiritualityarticles/treasurefaq.htm
http://www.cauldronfarm.com/writing/ordealpathNT.html.

This reminds me of a thread I want to make.

[latin_baller]

Some modern people have also used BDSM to induce trance states, visions, etc..

:sick: I flinch at just the mention of that. It brings me memories from Hostel

I know this Native American girl, shes Sioux and Cherokee, she said she was scared of going to a journey because they were going to hang her upside down and leave her somewhere.

[David19]

:sick: I flinch at just the mention of that. It brings me memories from Hostel

I know this Native American girl, shes Sioux and Cherokee, she said she was scared of going to a journey because they were going to hang her upside down and leave her somewhere.

I've heard that some shamans do that, I know I personally could never do it (although I am interested in learning more about how shamans use pain), I think it's something you really have to be dedicated in doing and something you're not forced into (which I think crosses the line into torture).

[SqueezetheShaman]

Chemically enhancing your journeys with entheogens can be quite effective. That being said, it isn't for everyone. An unhealthy mind doesn't respond well to psychedelics, in my experience. But to say it is for everyone is silly. Not every christian gets inspiration from the same scripture, not every magickian has success with the same incantations. (or whatever they do, i am not into wicca, magick or anything such as that!!) Exactly the point, everyone on this earth has the goddessgiven right to do what they need to connect with God. And one way isn't better than another.

Timothy Leary asked a monk once, how is your method different than mine. and the monk said simply, "you use the express elevator to get to the same place." i am totally probably messing that quote up, i don't recall exactly, but you get the point. Disagree? fine, but that is my educated view.

My visions and experiences I have had with the use of salvia, mushrooms, mdma and dmt have been much more memorable, and taught me much more than without. I am not saying it works for everyone, so this is something you need to decide on your own, and carefully.

Everyone is filled with fear when you mention illicit drugs....and they forget about the therapeutic benefits proven in the past and currently...mdma for ptsd, dmt and ibogaine therapy for addiction. I am not saying there shouldn't be caution, but when you use comments like "omg, i am going to go crazy after one trip and never come back OMG!!1!" you sound like nothing better than the pot fearing wackos of the early 20th century, instead of sounding knowledgeable.

A healthy fear and a healthy respect are what is needed. if you don't have either, don't bother.

For those curious, you can look into an ayahuasca retreat in south america....just do some serious research. these new age money lovers are ruining it, and aya tourism is being barraged with those who don't know what they are doing. But if you find a real shaman, s/he will lead you through a fascinating experience. It isn't fun. you will possibly vomit, shit your pants, or both.

As for the dangers, so much research is necessary. Take DMT as an example, if you take it orally, it needs an MAOI to make it effective. Since DMT is endogenous in the human brain, it is quickly metabolised without an maoi....but there are dangers with maoi's....i.e. no alcohol, cheese for days in advance. there are many other worries too, and you need to research it if it is something you wish to do.

you can use erowid.org as a wonderful resource. you will find trip reports, dangers, history of the chems/compounds....wonderful resource.

some other popular and great books....food of the gods, terence mckenna dmt, the spirit molecule, dr rick strassman

and my personaly favorite, written by my hero....PIHKAL phenethylamines i have known and love.(mdma is a phenethylamine) a pseudo autobiography by alexander shulgin and his wife ann. he worked for the govt, and the dea early in his life and when discovering psychs, began a lifetime of research. he is the godfather of mdma, he resynthesized it in the 60s after eharing of the potential for use in therapy.

he has another TIHKAL tryptamines i have known and loved. (dmt is a tryptamine, dimethyltryptamine)

and just a FYI for those afraid of chems. this couple and their friends have tasted and used themselves for research on hundreds of chems they synthesized. the books are an analysis of many of them. and they are a very healthy happy couple in their 70s still kicking strong :)

again, moderation and respect.

[Simply Puzzled]

I've heard that some shamans do that, I know I personally could never do it (although I am interested in learning more about how shamans use pain), I think it's something you really have to be dedicated in doing and something you're not forced into (which I think crosses the line into torture).

No, these things are like sex: always consensual! If you're forced into it, all the benefit from it is going to be lost. Hanging up side down from a tree reminds me of one of the greatest shamans in history, whom hung for 9 days until he received the runes. It's funny the cross-cultural comparisons. They are what make shamanism worth studying (in an academic way).

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Hanging up side down from a tree reminds me of one of the greatest shamans in history, whom hung for 9 days until he received the runes.

I have reason to believe this is a myth , and story , of the reception
of the knowledge. If that is what is meant , I can accept that...

If however , this is to be taken as fact , not just a myth repeated
endlessly , until taken as history , where is the evidence of the
existence of said personage , and event ?

Just wondering...and Norse and German myths , are just that...

[David19]

No, these things are like sex: always consensual! If you're forced into it, all the benefit from it is going to be lost. Hanging up side down from a tree reminds me of one of the greatest shamans in history, whom hung for 9 days until he received the runes. It's funny the cross-cultural comparisons. They are what make shamanism worth studying (in an academic way).

I agree with you, I think it's something you have to do yourself, not be forced into it. For the shamans who do use pain, I really admire as I don't think I could do it (although I guess you should never say never 'cause you can't know what you can do until you try, if that makes any sense). That's why I started a thread on shamanism and pain to see if anyone used pain for any purpose.

[Lolair]

I think it's possible to journey without the drugs, it probably takes more time and practice, but at least you'll be more confident about your experience, as well as safer. Drugs are just too risky and taking a hallucinogen for the purpose of a spiritual journey to me seems so lacking in authenticity. Maybe if you can't journey the old fashion way without the drugs, you're just not ready to 'go there' and using a drug, might be a very, very, very negative experience for you, which might include death. Every person I've ever known who had a bad trip were, a lot of times, people who didn't have the spiritual capacity outside of drugs for any discovery of deity or spirit.
If you look into different 'shamanistic' cultures from the present into ancient times, there were usually always drugs involved - whether ingested, inhaled, or rubbed on the skin. The old fashioned way was using entheogens, the modern way is to say that we don't need them. Many practitioners simply do not have the ability to get into trance or journeying without the aid of either drugs or a practitioner with that ability to lead them there. Those with the ability to do so without drugs are usually classified by the psychology community as schizophrenics - as schizophrenia and shamanism have a long history together (see website Schizophrenia & Shamanism (http://website.lineone.net/%7Ecrowseed/sands/skzlike.html)). Drugs are not evil, bad, or negative, it is our misuse of them that makes them so. There has been terrible misuse of entheogens in the witchcraft community in the past, but that doesn't mean that one should never incorporate them into your practice - with proper education and usage of course.

If it hasn't been previously posted, this is an interesting article on the topic of modern witches and hallucinogens:

"If Witches No Longer Fly: Todays Pagans and Solanaceous Plants" (http://www.chasclifton.com/papers/If_Witches_No_Longer_Fly.pdf) by Chas S. Clifton (PDF)

Slainte,
Lolair

[Sharpchick]

Chemically enhancing your journeys with entheogens can be quite effective. That being said, it isn't for everyone. An unhealthy mind doesn't respond well to psychedelics, in my experience. But to say it is for everyone is silly. Not every christian gets inspiration from the same scripture, not every magickian has success with the same incantations. (or whatever they do, i am not into wicca, magick or anything such as that!!) Exactly the point, everyone on this earth has the goddessgiven right to do what they need to connect with God. And one way isn't better than another.

Timothy Leary asked a monk once, how is your method different than mine. and the monk said simply, "you use the express elevator to get to the same place." i am totally probably messing that quote up, i don't recall exactly, but you get the point. Disagree? fine, but that is my educated view.

My visions and experiences I have had with the use of salvia, mushrooms, mdma and dmt have been much more memorable, and taught me much more than without. I am not saying it works for everyone, so this is something you need to decide on your own, and carefully.

Everyone is filled with fear when you mention illicit drugs....and they forget about the therapeutic benefits proven in the past and currently...mdma for ptsd, dmt and ibogaine therapy for addiction. I am not saying there shouldn't be caution, but when you use comments like "omg, i am going to go crazy after one trip and never come back OMG!!1!" you sound like nothing better than the pot fearing wackos of the early 20th century, instead of sounding knowledgeable.

A healthy fear and a healthy respect are what is needed. if you don't have either, don't bother.

For those curious, you can look into an ayahuasca retreat in south america....just do some serious research. these new age money lovers are ruining it, and aya tourism is being barraged with those who don't know what they are doing. But if you find a real shaman, s/he will lead you through a fascinating experience. It isn't fun. you will possibly vomit, shit your pants, or both.

As for the dangers, so much research is necessary. Take DMT as an example, if you take it orally, it needs an MAOI to make it effective. Since DMT is endogenous in the human brain, it is quickly metabolised without an maoi....but there are dangers with maoi's....i.e. no alcohol, cheese for days in advance. there are many other worries too, and you need to research it if it is something you wish to do.

you can use erowid.org as a wonderful resource. you will find trip reports, dangers, history of the chems/compounds....wonderful resource.

some other popular and great books....food of the gods, terence mckenna dmt, the spirit molecule, dr rick strassman

and my personaly favorite, written by my hero....PIHKAL phenethylamines i have known and love.(mdma is a phenethylamine) a pseudo autobiography by alexander shulgin and his wife ann. he worked for the govt, and the dea early in his life and when discovering psychs, began a lifetime of research. he is the godfather of mdma, he resynthesized it in the 60s after eharing of the potential for use in therapy.

he has another TIHKAL tryptamines i have known and loved. (dmt is a tryptamine, dimethyltryptamine)

and just a FYI for those afraid of chems. this couple and their friends have tasted and used themselves for research on hundreds of chems they synthesized. the books are an analysis of many of them. and they are a very healthy happy couple in their 70s still kicking strong :)

again, moderation and respect.

I agree with SqueezetheShaman. . . The Great Spirit has given us many tools with which to explore our inner divinity. The use of sacred herbs, plants, roots and barks to assist in meditation, trance and journey work is but a small example of the tools at my disposal, and not something to be undertaken without first bonding with and reverently asking the plant to teach me.

If an entheogen can assist someone who cannot give up enough of the conscious self to cross over, then my only cautions to that person would be first, to do the prep work necessary to truly understand what the plant teaches while journeying and second, to have a trained and competent, sober sitter present during the journey work.

[Simply Puzzled]

If you look into different 'shamanistic' cultures from the present into ancient times, there were usually always drugs involved - whether ingested, inhaled, or rubbed on the skin.

Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing. The use of drugs correlates, unsurprisingly with their availability. If you happen to be in the middle of a rainforest, like the Amazon, there is a wide variety of both flora and fauna that can supply the necessary toxins (which is exactly what they are) that can induce trance. If you happen to be in the Russian steppes, there isn't much growing at all so you aren't going to have the same pattern of drug use. Drugs play little to no role in the major shamanic systems of Africa that I have studied, such as that of the Yoruba and Zulu people. The Australians relied much more on sound, such as didgeridoo. Europeans had specific plants, such as variety of mushroom that they could use for trance, but we have a lot of research into other methods that were widely practiced. The Inuit people practiced forms of trance induced by sensory deprivation.

There are also cultures in which the drug is initially used as a short-cut to show the student what the trance is like to make it easier for them get back. Once they have had that experience, it is much easier to slip back through drumming, pain, etc.

In no sense were drugs "usually always involved."

[Sharpchick]

Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing. The use of drugs correlates, unsurprisingly with their availability. If you happen to be in the middle of a rainforest, like the Amazon, there is a wide variety of both flora and fauna that can supply the necessary toxins (which is exactly what they are) that can induce trance. If you happen to be in the Russian steppes, there isn't much growing at all so you aren't going to have the same pattern of drug use. Drugs play little to no role in the major shamanic systems of Africa that I have studied, such as that of the Yoruba and Zulu people. The Australians relied much more on sound, such as didgeridoo. Europeans had specific plants, such as variety of mushroom that they could use for trance, but we have a lot of research into other methods that were widely practiced. The Inuit people practiced forms of trance induced by sensory deprivation.

There are also cultures in which the drug is initially used as a short-cut to show the student what the trance is like to make it easier for them get back. Once they have had that experience, it is much easier to slip back through drumming, pain, etc.

In no sense were drugs "usually always involved."

I would respectfully disagree. . . even if substances from outside the body are not ingested during journey work, the chemicals produced by the body itself, i.e., endorphins and adrenalin, just to name two, alter the chemistry of the brain or else one could not arrive at a trance state.

I think the word that trips folks up on this type of discussion is the word "drugs." And from my reading of the posts in this thread, I've not gotten the impression that anyone who does not slam the door on the use of enthoegens is advocating that anyone get stoned and have themselves a nice little trip. To do so would be the height of insult, in my view, to the sacred plants given to us by the Great Spirit.

[Simply Puzzled]

I would respectfully disagree. . . even if substances from outside the body are not ingested during journey work, the chemicals produced by the body itself, i.e., endorphins and adrenalin, just to name two, alter the chemistry of the brain or else one could not arrive at a trance state.

I think the word that trips folks up on this type of discussion is the word "drugs." And from my reading of the posts in this thread, I've not gotten the impression that anyone who does not slam the door on the use of enthoegens is advocating that anyone get stoned and have themselves a nice little trip. To do so would be the height of insult, in my view, to the sacred plants given to us by the Great Spirit.

Internal and external chemical changes are different things. I don't think the word "drugs" was tripping anyone up, because that's exactly what we were discussing. Secondly, if you read my past posts, I have said that some shamans use drugs, and this is a way to achieve trance, but that is is a) inherently dangerous, b) there are safer alternatives, and c) this is a public forum and as such we are not equipped to provide the personal training and safety net necessary for proper use of such drugs.