Buffy

[Myst]

So who watched it?

I donno what to say, except.. oh yah, Willow is cool all in black and with the dark hair n stuff.

[PeleRising]

OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGG:eek: :eek: WOWWWWW

[Azure]

Kicked ass. . .

[Neptune]

That show is still on?

[fey]

Next week is gonna be interesting. I don't want to wait all summer to see what happens!!! (still grumbling majorly about Tara )

[MistOfTheSea86]

EEEP NO MORE, It comes on in 30 minutes! hehe:D I wanna watch:D

[Danustouch]

The effects were AWESOME!

They certainly do want to keep us in suspense, don't they? Will spike be "vampirish" again after having his chip removed? Or has his "love" for buffy REALLY changed him.

Is there ANY return now, for Willow? Supposedly.."There IS no going back"..but I just can't see Buffy Killing Willow..or Willow not being on the show! But then again..the preview from next weeks show make her seem not just vengeful, but consumed by evil. So..who knows. Maybe the scooby gang, with the help of Anya, will be able to excorsize her or something.

Speaking of Anya...Boy..if that isn't a time bomb.

The only thing I really had a problem with in this episode, was Buffy's Willingness to leave Dawn with Spike. Now..of course, none of us think that Spike would harm Dawn. He really does seem to care for her..but..for goddess sake! He just tried to Rape Buffy...how could she even think of leaving her sister in his care?

Oy. That part bugged me.

[WandererInGray]

Argh!

Crap....total crap.

"Hell hath no fury like a Wiccan scorned?" Give me a frelling break! First off, Willow wasn't "scorned" her girlfriend got killed.

And nice touch with the "dark art" books and the inverted pentagram she sucked out of it. Sheesh.

*rolls eyes and throws up hands*

Yeah, we all know it's not true....but the rest of the innane population doesn't. Joss has been swinging back and forth on this for years, though usually managing to stay in the side of the halfway decent image. Now he goes off on this whole stupid "Wicked Witch" crap.

*shakes head* I knew the series was headed into the basement, I just didn't think they could sink this low.

That's my rant for the evening.

[Myst]

Now was it inverted in the book or on her skin? I wasn't so sure which way it was meant to be.

I think the letters were turned anyway, but not sure. Not to mention, I'm sure you know that the inverted pentacle is often used to represent the second stage, the underworld, so it *is* associated with darker energies.

And I think I'd be pretty damn po'd if someone killed my mate too. I'm pretty sure if I could I would be doing more then lighting black candles or sayin' prayers.. We aren't all love & light'ers :)

[ravenwolf066]

In the case of the inverted pentagram, it was not inverted in the book it just came out that way. But what you say Myst is very true. We as Wiccans try always to follow the path of the wiccan rede "harm none" but, since we have not gone through the experience of loosing a loved one in a violent way we really couldn't say how we would react. We are human, so I do understand what you say. I personally love Willow and it was kind of hard to see what she went through seeing her loved one get shot in front of her. I know it was a TV show but when you think of it happening to you in real life it really gives you an earie feeling. Blessed be.

[Danustouch]

LOL..since when did hollywood portray Wiccans accurately? Obviosly..alot of that episode was "Fantastical". but then..it's a "Fantasy" show. If some idiot out there wants to base their knowledge of wicca on a tv. show like Buffy..then they'll only look like more the fool. Hollywood is full of stereotypes, and full of fantasy, and full of misrepresentations of various things. Those with the mind to look beyond these things, will find out the truth. Those who don't..well..imo..are just ..Stupid. lol.

I think it would bother me more if it were a show like 7th Heaven, or Dawsons Creek, or something like that which had portrayed Wicca in such a light. Something loosely based on reality. However, Buffy has NEVER claimed to be even remotely based on reality.

I was a little uncomfortable with the phrase.."Hell hath no fury like a wiccan scorned"..but mainly because fury, rage, and such emotions are a universal theme. lol. Wiccans don't own a corner on that market. We're just like everyone else in that respect. But...whatcha gonna do? Hollywood capitolizes on the whole idea of witchcraft and magick. It's fantastical to people. But..Hollywood capitolizes on ANYTHING that it can..so I'm not at all surprised, and I don't think it's entirely Joss's fault, and I'm not that irked by it, overall.

[Melysande]

Loved it for the reasons Azure loved it, and hated it for the reasons Wanderer hated it.

Loved Warren's last scene. "Bored now" **imitates the Willow gesture** Spew. **grins** I still say making the effects for that and doing the makeup for that would have been wicked neat.

[Phoenix Blue]

A good writer does research into anything he wants to write into his story. Before I started writing science fiction, for example, I did some research into fusion. Why? Because it was part of the background for my universe, and I wanted it to be feasible.

**Shrugs** There's just no excuse for not doing your homework. So yes, it is Joss' fault.

[Danustouch]

Phoenix....he may have done his research...but..disregarded it for the sake of artistic liscense. It IS a fantasy show, after all.

[Myst]

Besides that the inverted pentagram thing isn't nonsense in the first place.

[Danustouch]

true Myst. However..I think that I can understand why some people would worry about the inverted pentagram. Knowing that it's been much associated with Satanism and the like. I.E..WE know the difference, and that it can also be a symbol of darker magicks, but the greater public may not understand.

And..as we know..some Wiccans do not embrace the "darker magicks" at all..so i guess those from belief systems that do not embrace darker magicks, would probably be a little uncomfortable with that symbol being associated with their view of Wicca.

I'm guessing that that is the crux of the discomfort on this issue.

[Myst]

I suppose so but as usual I abhor catering to the lowest common denominator (ie. people who don't know any better or want to).

That and you're right, it's entertainment.

[Danustouch]

I heartily agree on that :)

[Jeleia]

Ack, I'm never going to catch up on Buffy, if I keep missing it. The only time I know of it being on is Saturday... but is it on during the week?

Can someone please help me out here?!

[materra]

Joss did it again and went back to trite and true formula for his show scripts. I am so disappointed.

But dang it all, I still want to see what happens next! Will Spike be evil; is Dawn safe; can the gang save Willow? How does Joss do this?! I like these characters...and then they say stupid stuff as if it would be a real contribution to the show.

AAAAARRRRGGGGGG. I am so iritated!

[Flaire-FireStar]

It doesn't come on here until Saturday....but by the sounds of it ~ it doesn't sound all that good..:p Dare I watch it, or wait for re-runs..after missing last week's episode..:rolleyes:

[MistOfTheSea86]

The inverted pentagram didn't really irk me. Face it, it's hollywood;)

Willow has gone CRAZAY. The cliffhanger previews were like EEP what is gonna happen?

I am thinking, MAYBE, Spike is trying to get his soul? I mean he always says THE DAMN CHIP IN MY HEAD. But the demon never flat out said "If you do this I will take out that chip" And spike never really "Requested" So do say, he just was complaining.

You never know?

[SpikesPet5150]

You guys really shouldn't blame Joss... Marti Noxin wrote the episode.... Joss hasn't written an episode this season since the Musical ep. So leave poor Jossy out of it! David Fury is the evil one, in my book.. he doesn't like Spike. Jerk. ;)

And I don't get upset anymore by hollywoods portrayal of wicca and witchcraft. Honestly.. if they didn't have all the glam and flash, would it sell? Probably not. It's all about entertainment. Do you think it's really all fun and games to be a cop? Probably not.. but it sure looks like it in the movies. Same goes with alot of things.

And who here loves Clem as much as I do?? He's so sweet and so funny and I just love him! Great character.

I really like how they're delving into the whole, "Demon vs Human" thing.. like.. just cause Clem is a demon doesn't mean he's evil... and Willow.. she's human, but she's goin more towards the evil side. And Warren? Please.. that guy has more disgusting evil in his body than 10 vamps put together! I like the blurred lines a little better than the black and white, I guess.. makes for more interesting plots. :)

And I miss Tara!! *cries*

I think that Spike can be trusted with Dawn. He physically cannot hurt her.. nor would he if he had a chance. He never hurt Buffy's mom, did he? Even when he had the perfect chance? No, cause he has a thing for Summers' women. :) Must be the genes (or jeans LOL).

And Anya... love her attitude. I think it's crappy how Xander is all judgy with her.. I mean, he left HER... at the altar. She doesn't have to answer to him at all. Good for her for going back to her vengence, I say... she was happy doing that.. plus, interesting plots.. good all around.

Anyone else feel a little sorry for Jonathan? I feel like he just got caught up in something he couldn't handle. I mean, he never wanted to hurt Buffy and he was the only one of the Trio that showed any remorse for killing Warrens girlfriend. And he helped Buffy break Warrens little magical orbs. Ever since that Superstar episode, I've felt sorry for Jonathan.. he just wants to be included and loved. Poor little weenie.

You guys should know better than to get me started on Buffy!!

"As Joss goes.. so goes my nation." -- My Motto.

~Bree

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150
You guys really shouldn't blame Joss... Marti Noxin wrote the episode.... Joss hasn't written an episode this season since the Musical ep. So leave poor Jossy out of it! David Fury is the evil one, in my book.. he doesn't like Spike. Jerk. ;)

And I don't get upset anymore by hollywoods portrayal of wicca and witchcraft. Honestly.. if they didn't have all the glam and flash, would it sell? Probably not. It's all about entertainment. Do you think it's really all fun and games to be a cop? Probably not.. but it sure looks like it in the movies. Same goes with alot of things.

And who here loves Clem as much as I do?? He's so sweet and so funny and I just love him! Great character.

I really like how they're delving into the whole, "Demon vs Human" thing.. like.. just cause Clem is a demon doesn't mean he's evil... and Willow.. she's human, but she's goin more towards the evil side. And Warren? Please.. that guy has more disgusting evil in his body than 10 vamps put together! I like the blurred lines a little better than the black and white, I guess.. makes for more interesting plots. :)

And I miss Tara!! *cries*

I think that Spike can be trusted with Dawn. He physically cannot hurt her.. nor would he if he had a chance. He never hurt Buffy's mom, did he? Even when he had the perfect chance? No, cause he has a thing for Summers' women. :) Must be the genes (or jeans LOL).

And Anya... love her attitude. I think it's crappy how Xander is all judgy with her.. I mean, he left HER... at the altar. She doesn't have to answer to him at all. Good for her for going back to her vengence, I say... she was happy doing that.. plus, interesting plots.. good all around.

Anyone else feel a little sorry for Jonathan? I feel like he just got caught up in something he couldn't handle. I mean, he never wanted to hurt Buffy and he was the only one of the Trio that showed any remorse for killing Warrens girlfriend. And he helped Buffy break Warrens little magical orbs. Ever since that Superstar episode, I've felt sorry for Jonathan.. he just wants to be included and loved. Poor little weenie.

You guys should know better than to get me started on Buffy!!

"As Joss goes.. so goes my nation." -- My Motto.

~Bree

Nicely put! I agree with you.

[Azure]

I can understand why Wanderer and some of you would be bothered, but I have to say, I wasn't. IANAW, admittedly, but they have been inaccurately referring to Willow as one since she took up magic, back in season two, so I can understand why they used the term. And to me, Joss' world is so totally based in fantasy that I don't have any issue with it. (And MArti Noxon is his right hand, so you cn't excuse Joss, by the by). I agree with Phoenix Blue that there should have been a little more thought a few years ago, but be that as it may, the direction the show has gone doesn't bother me.

I am far more interested in the character development than anything else, and I think the characters are going in interesting directions.

The pentagram and word choice are unlikely, IMO, to inflame anyone who has any background, and those people who already believe that it's all bad already have such a distorted view of Wicca/Witchcraft/ any and all forms of magic, etc. that they aren't going to suddenly leap up and say "Ah Ha! Proof that it's all evil."

Frankly, I'm more bothered by some of the real life people who run around giving the Pagan Community a bad name than by a few references on Buffy.

[WandererInGray]

I'm not a Wiccan either...as Azure well knows. :) I have no "discomfort" with the inverted pentacle, I'm just sick and tired of seeing it used as a defining symbol of magick...they could have used a regular pentacle....but *NO* Willow was going Evil so that's the first thing they jump at.

My point is this....change that whole story around and have an African-American in Willow's place.

Now imagine them running a header that said "Hell hath no fury like a n------ scorned."

Willow has been a background character for most of this show's running....and now that she has a major part, it's as the Evil Wiccan. :rolleyes: That in my book is in very poor taste.

I think she had every right to do to Warren what she did, he was scum and vile, and justice was done. But now she's going after the other two? (that's a guess on my part from her "that's one" comment) and she's going after Buffy??

As I've said before most of us know it's entertainment, know it's not educational....but that doesn't stop TV, movies, ectera from not perpetuating nasty stereotypes about "other" cultures and religions. Or at the very least, hearing about it when they do.

*shakes head* I'm still very disappointed in the show....I expected much better. *smiles* Maybe I should learn my lesson about that.

Wiccan, Pagan, whatever...I'm still not sure why anyone would want to support a show that portrays us as such total gits.

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Azure
Frankly, I'm more bothered by some of the real life people who run around giving the Pagan Community a bad name than by a few references on Buffy.

*grins* Ten bucks says that a great deal of those people *get* their information from Buffy and Charmed.

[ravenwolf066]

I agree with you Danustouch, maybe you misunderstood me when I said that it would be hard for us to accept the violent death of a loved one. I know it is all fantasy believe me if having those powers as a Wiccan were true I'd be Superman (LOL). What I meant was in the way of vengeance. We as human beings have the darkside of vengeance in our heart when it comes to having our souls hurt deeply. We try hard to avoid it and to ignore it with will power, so that the law of "harm none" comes to balance. But we wouldn't know of our reactions til it happened to us. Buffy is just pure entertainment and fantasy like you say but there are scenes which happen in our daily lives like the loss of a loved one violently. My cousin was runned over by a car and he was only 9 years old. This was 7 years ago and to this day no one knows who did it. His father went insane and till this day still wants revenge on . He has been wiccan for over 30 years but his broken heart couldn't stand the pain of the loss of his child. So you see that's what I mean by "we don't know how we'll react till it happens to us". Blessed be.

[PeleRising]

Originally posted by Flaire
It doesn't come on here until Saturday....but by the sounds of it ~ it doesn't sound all that good..:p Dare I watch it, or wait for re-runs..after missing last week's episode..:rolleyes:

I too missed last weeks episode... but they did a really good job catching you up before this weeks show starts... and it was awesome IMO... ya gotta watch it ....:D

[Azure]

*Laughs*

I don't doubt that some of them are Wanderer, and I'm sure they think that we all run around in Manolos casting spells to make people love us, but I am more bothered by the bad history sorts that make us look like we honestly think the ancient Celts worshiped the potato.

I guess part of it, is that while I see Willow as out of control, I don't see what she is doing as evil. Warren is evil. One of the things I have always liked about Buffy is that it makes the viewer rethink their notions about what evil really is. In Buffy, good and evil are less the modern Christian black and white and more of the Eastern wise versus ignorant. Perhaps the problem there is that I expect people to be thoughtful to begin with, and the majority probably are not.

I agree, however, that the teaser was pretty - hmmm - poorly done. However, the teasers with lines like "Hell hath no fury. . ." are done by the network, not by the producers and writers of the show.

I think I will refrain from final judgement until I have seen next week's show.

[WandererInGray]

*nods* The confrontation between her and Buffy seemed to me to indicate that they thought she was evil...as did the end of the show this week. But I should learn by now that teasers are not all they appear.

I agree with you that what Willow did wasn't her being evil...but perhaps the use of the magic has pushed her into the realm of evil :rolleyes: Don't get me started on that whole storyline anyway. :D

[Azure]

Well, I'll actually go there - I don't particularly like the magic as addictive drug metaphor. I understand why the choice was made, but it implies that balance isn't possible, which it should be. Look at Giles, for a good example. You can enjoy wine your whole life and never become an alcoholic. Perhaps it underlines the deep fear of addictions that American culture seems to have. Anything that brings pleasure or that defies conventional norms is looked upon with suspicion and viewed as potentially a tool for destruction.

But I still think the teasers are way too shallow, and the show has more substance than that.

I suspect if Joss weren't overdrawn, the plot would be different, but he's also got Angel, Firefly, and the new Giles BBC pilot. That being the case, I think Buffy needs to end next year, before it really does lose quality.

I am still appreciating the show - and I do like that the Scoobies are facing their own inner demons, but I can see things slipping now that Joss has so many other commitments, and that would be sad.

[Myst]

Actually I'd prefer to lose Angel and all the rest and keep Buffy.

[SpikesPet5150]

Don't forget the Buffy cartoon that's in the making.. Joss is working on that ALOT.

I'd prefer just to keep Angel and Buffy. Have David Greenwalt do most of the Angel stuff (cause he's been doing a good job with that) and have Joss do the Buffy stuff. I could care less if there was a cartoon and I could care less about the BBC show cause I don't live there, so I won't get it. I don't know anything about the Firefly thing.. no idea, don't care. LOL

The reason I heard that the show will be over after next season is cause Joss is too busy to work on it, and he hates the fact that his baby is being run by other people.. he always wanted to be the one doing everything with it.. but the man is just too darn popular now. :)
~Bree

[materra]

WandererInGrey I thought I would add my take on the "that's one" statement....I think she means the other two of the TRIO that are in jail, not the scooby gang. I want Buffy to continue, and let the other shows go to other producers etc. Of course this is coming from someone who wanted Wolf Lake to continue too. Sigh, I do like good character development...this latest phase Willow is on isn't all it could be. LOL...if only they let us do some of the episodes!