Owning Power

[Vigdisdotter]

Now here's one I've seen come up a lot. It's the question of where or not the abilities of a shaman are something they channel from Spirit, or is something inherent to the individual.

Myself, I think it's a combination of the two. But, more often then not, the abilities of the individual are ignored as people gush about how Spirit is working through the Shaman. This to me does a great disservice to the person who is out there, working to help others, since it basically says that the Shaman is just a mouth piece as it were.

Given everything a those who are, or would be Shamans must endure and learn, why SHOULDN'T they own their abilities and contributions?

When i suggest this I'm often met with the "evil ego" argument. That claiming power inflates the ego and this gets in the way of things. Maybe it's just me, but I don't find that to be the case.

And under it all is the question, does everything that makes a Shaman what s/he is come exclusively from Spirit or is there some intrinsic quality/skill/outlook that is there before the call to the path?

[Shanti]

My perspective is different, of course. :)
I am not this flesh that is called Shanti. That is only my coat.
I can shed this coat anytime and obtain a new one if I choose.
My coat of flesh has no power. Its a thing, a tool like any other tool.
It wears out also like any tool will.
I am a spirit wearing a coat of flesh and all that this coat does, is as any tool, its powered by the one using it.
Without me, this coat of flesh would accomplish nothing, just like a drill laying on a bench with no owner to operate it, useless.

[Vigdisdotter]

My perspective is different, of course. :)
I am not this flesh that is called Shanti. That is only my coat.

I would agree, but it's what I am right now, as I am the spirit I am right now. Fairing forth doesn't change any of that for me. The holistic being that I am, living in a holistic universe, is everything including this body, this personality and this spirit.

Nothing says that I will have the same abilities and calling in my next life time :)

[Simply Puzzled]

Because, I think, when you have the experience, it is no longer intellectual. It is no longer a debate about "ego" versus "skill" or anything else. It is a complete feeling of being honored, that you, someone so unimportant, was rewarded with this great task. I remember the first time I stopped doing divination and started doing oracle. It was amazing, but mostly humbling. Because you realize the message wasn't from you, that you are an imperfect means of communicating it, that there are things so much greater than you, but still, you got to share in this experience.

[Vigdisdotter]

It is a complete feeling of being honored, that you, someone so unimportant, was rewarded with this great task.

Why would I think I (or anyone else) was unimportant? Everyone is important, every THING is important. Rocks, trees, cats, horses....even people. We are all part of the wonder that is creation. That hardly seems insignificant to me, but rather something to be celebrated and enjoyed.

As for Divination....the message may not come form you (there's anotehr debate right there) but it's your skill at interpreting/understanding the message that means it can be but to use.

[Simply Puzzled]

Why would I think I (or anyone else) was unimportant? Everyone is important, every THING is important. Rocks, trees, cats, horses....even people. We are all part of the wonder that is creation. That hardly seems insignificant to me, but rather something to be celebrated and enjoyed.

Again, I can't intellectually describe it to you. Others may experience it differently, but for me, it shows myself and my place in the world, and that seems very, very small.

As for Divination....the message may not come form you (there's anotehr debate right there) but it's your skill at interpreting/understanding the message that means it can be but to use.

I differentiated between divination and oracle though. Divination is the skill of the reader. Oracle is a message from the spirits.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Now , this is an interesting point...

I , for example , experience myself as the oneness...

Not insignificant at all...The shaper of reality , and perciever
of all within it...

I do not understand at all the idea of humbleness...

Nor " imperfection"...IMO...that is for children , just beginning the path...

[ShadowStalker]

My perspective is different, of course. :)
I am not this flesh that is called Shanti. That is only my coat.
I can shed this coat anytime and obtain a new one if I choose.
My coat of flesh has no power. Its a thing, a tool like any other tool.
It wears out also like any tool will.
I am a spirit wearing a coat of flesh and all that this coat does, is as any tool, its powered by the one using it.
Without me, this coat of flesh would accomplish nothing, just like a drill laying on a bench with no owner to operate it, useless.

That's an interesting opinion on the idea/concept as a whole, really. :) And the way you explained it makes sense.

Personally, I agree with Vigisdotter mostly. I think shamanistic abilities (along with most others) are a combination of inherent and learned - and yes, you should own your abilities...otherwise, they own you. Not necessarily a good thing. I think that learning the ideals, concepts, practices and theories of shamanism can only get you so far... beyond that, there needs to be some sort of innate talent for the communications and meditative states. Only so much can be taught - only so much can be learned, before natural ability must take over.

Just my .02.

[Vigdisdotter]

but for me, it shows myself and my place in the world, and that seems very, very small.

I think that is what I'm getting stuck on. My experience shows me that I and my doings are part of a much larger whole, that everything is connected and thus nothing is really "small" at all. To think of myself as "small" would be to ignore my part in and impact on creation, which I think would be detrimental to my efforts.

I differentiated between divination and oracle though. Divination is the skill of the reader. Oracle is a message from the spirits.

Why? An oracle is just one kind of divination, much as witchcraft is one kind of magic.

[Simply Puzzled]

I think that is what I'm getting stuck on. My experience shows me that I and my doings are part of a much larger whole, that everything is connected and thus nothing is really "small" at all. To think of myself as "small" would be to ignore my part in and impact on creation, which I think would be detrimental to my efforts.

It's funny how different everyone's experiences are.

Why? An oracle is just one kind of divination, much as witchcraft is one kind of magic.

The terms are simply a way of discussing something. When discussing divination, I like to separate out oracle to make everything as clear as possible.

[skilly-nilly]

I'm kind of between to 2 poles---I think of myself as synergistic. I am small, but in the right combination I am powerful as a part of the All, which is enormous.

I make the same distinction between using divinatory tools with defined meanings and receiving messages from God/s/dess/desses direct, without tools, that you do, Puzzled. They do overlap, though.