Satanism...

[Kaylara]

"SATANIC WITCH: One can not be a satanic Witch because Witches do not believe in Satan."
From various pages on traditions, originally by Silver Ravenwolf.

My question...
Is it possible for a Satanic Witch to exist. (Not a Satanic Wiccan.)

And what are your feelings about Satanism.

Kaylara

[Lilu]

I haven't read too much about Satanism and my understanding of it is that which is printed at the Church of Satan website http://www.churchofsatan.com/

There is also some info on different forms of Satanism at http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm

But MY definition of a witch is different to wiccan. To me, anyone who practices magick is a witch - whether they are Christian, Santerian, Wiccan, etc. So, by my definition, there CAN be a Satanic Witch - if that person follows the religion of Satanism and practices magick.

And Silver Ravenwolf is making a VERY BROAD statement by saying that witches don't believe in Satan. Maybe by her definition this is true - but not by everyone's.
BB
Lilu

[bluecat]

I do not see Satanism as Pagan because it is a direct response to Christianity and there is a belief in the Christian Satan involved and therefore in Christianity itself. The way I see it to follow the Christian Satan you have to believe that he is a fallen angel of the Christian god.

Some Christian faiths teach that Satan, Lucifer, etc, is also a Son of God and the direct brother of the Christ figure and that he was cast out of heaven, with his army, and given dominion over the material earth following a great war in Heaven.

Alas, there will be many opinions and different takes on this.

But the bottom line, IMHO, is that Satanism is not Pagan, nor is it Witchcraft.

Blue

[Mariposa De La Luna]

I agree with Lilu. Anyone can be a witch and make magick. And I also agree with blue, there has to be belief in Christianity to believe in Satan but anything is possible.

Blue how do you define witchcraft? Magick is not the sole property of Wiccanns or Pagans.

[Amora]

I just wanted to throw my two cents in here. I dont' feel that satanism and paganism can be considered the same. I believe in the rule of three fold if I follow evil I would have some bad s*** headed my way! I'd rather not go there....

[SahuaDjet]

Well there are christian witches why not satanic witches? Satanism agrees that one should get revenge but does call for killing as do traditional witchcraft says if someone is trying to hurt you dont turn the other cheek. Le Vey (sp?) believes things that I agree with. They are called "Satanic" but they dont actually worship satan or an evil deity. Although I sometimes get confused with mixing wicca and another religions so I would say it can happen but I am no expert *smile*.

Sorry i cant spell,
Sahu Djet

[Xois]

Ok, here goes..

witchcraft is not a religion, its a vocation. Let me explain. The act of casting spells is independent from religion per se. Now there are plenty of pagan witches, but one does not necessarily imply the other. So one can be even an atheist witch...or a christian witch or a jewish witch...or a wiccan witch

ok now to the question of Satanism being Pagan

I don't think so, becuase the basis of Paganism is worshiping nature...I do not believe (and someone else can correct me if i am wrong) that any tenents in Satanism expressly encourage the worship of nature...

to LUMP other "alternative" or even tribal religions (such as Native american spirituality) under the Pagan umbrella, uses the definition of Pagan that the Christian church in the Middle Ages instituted (ei, Not Christian).

I am Pagan with a caital P. that means I worship nature. I do not worship a "lord" and a "lady" just plain ol nature ...

This does NOT mean, however, that we as an "underclass" religion (IE pagan or wiccan or whatever) should not FIGHT for religious tolerance and freedom for other religions...

Just my thoughts

Xois

[Earth Walker]

The devil, poor thing, is a christian, not Pagan invention.
Devil worship is a measly 150 years old, and was the
backlash result of witch burnings.



Only my cat understands me. :D

[rantnraven]

Found this but it was too long to post the entire article.

---------------
It is important to realize that the Satan that they recognize has few if any points of similarity with the conservative Christian concept of Satan. The Satanists' concept of Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. To most Satanists, Satan is a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks, sadistic torture, and profound evil.

-----------------
You can read the entire thing at http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm

[Ozymandias]

Satanism as a recognized religion today was created by that ignorant little sxcuse of a philosopher, LeVay(sp?). It currently has little to do with the older concepts. But Satan is a christian invention. Levay and his lackeys created a religion that gave them an excuse to do whatever they wanted and to justify it. As for a Satanic witch? Ya got me.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by SAHM
I agree with Lilu. Anyone can be a witch and make magick. And I also agree with blue, there has to be belief in Christianity to believe in Satan but anything is possible.

Blue how do you define witchcraft? Magick is not the sole property of Wiccanns or Pagans.

Well, for one today's Witchcraft is yesterday's religion. And today's science is yesterday's witchcraft.

My definition of Witchcraft is the practice of summoning supernatural or extrasomatic powers to bring forth a desired result. I do not see it as a religion, but as a way of life.

I have no gods or goddesses and what I believe is given at http://www.zianet.com/bluecat/Beliefs.html .

In that light, and in my opinion, even the Christian prayer to God for help is Witchcraft. It does not have to be evil in its intent, but the fact that when a person calls upon a supernatural power outside of their own self (extrasomatic) they are using a form of Witchcraft. This is also true for divination and other such "reading" techniques.

I hope that is helpful for you.

Blue

[BlackDragon]

Originally posted by Mystique
The devil, poor thing, is a christian, not Pagan invention.
Devil worship is a measly 150 years old, and was the
backlash result of witch burnings.



Only my cat understands me. :D

Totally agree. With everyone else too. If we took everyone's answers, we'd have this thing totally covered. I feel that the devil is a Christian thing, not Pagan. You can mix beliefs but... Who knows. Anything is possible right?

[rantnraven]

Not that this discussion wasn't spicy enough, I wanted to convey my philosophy that, if everyone were right, then everyone would be wrong.

Whole lotta finger pointing going on in this world.

[gunner]

gunner to an online christian fundamentalist;

"he's your devil, you can go to his hell"

i feel that the christian satan has nothing to do with me, while i do recognise good versus evil i have no need to "personify" evil to resist it. as for those christians who are happy in their belief and courteous enough to respect mine i have no problem with returning that courtesty.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by rantnraven
Not that this discussion wasn't spicy enough, I wanted to convey my philosophy that, if everyone were right, then everyone would be wrong.

Whole lotta finger pointing going on in this world.

So, if everyone is wrong, then everyone is right?? :bigredgri ...

Couldn't resist that one ... hehehehehehehe ... ;)

It was getting a bit deep and serious in here!

Blue :cool:

[Fawn]

Satanists worships Pan and daemons and some deities of theirs are 'good' I have researched this belief system and I know some true 'satanist' yes there are similiarites to paganism but while some pagans worry and wonder over karma, the harm none, three fold law and summerland the satanists do not--they will stand up for themselves, they worship with nature are not baby eaters (killing other than self-defense or to eat is wrong to them). They take advantage of this life and leave the here after ahead of them and don't worry about it. Actually they are a great bunch that I've encountered.



As for 'witchcraft' not being a religon--I am going to be the one to frustrate you all and say, IT IS TOO!! The use of magick is working with the elements and nature --we have a totally seperate rede then the 'wiccan' one . We recognize the shades of grey in our magickal workings, we work with nature, we are your healers, and dream readers, we tell your fortunes, witchcraft broken down is simply the way of the witches and to a witch doing magick is as natural as breathing to us and with wiccans there is always the option of not working with magick but one may still be considered wiccan. A TRUE witch is her/his magick.

[rantnraven]

I have heard it said that all Wiccans are Witches but not all Witches are Wiccan.

Just heard it.

RnR

[Fawn]

And it is true. I am not wiccan. I( have the same holidays as wiccans but by totally different names. I have different rituals, etc.

[mol]

Originally posted by Ozymandias
Satanism as a recognized religion today was created by that ignorant little sxcuse of a philosopher, LeVay(sp?). It currently has little to do with the older concepts. But Satan is a christian invention. Levay and his lackeys created a religion that gave them an excuse to do whatever they wanted and to justify it. As for a Satanic witch? Ya got me.

And what is wrong with that?

[zemblin]

I believe that sometimes evil is just an extention of good
and that there is a sort of nuetral type force like good and evil.Having wars to keep peace.
another good site would be Baphomet.com

[cydira]

All I can say is that I don't know too much about satanism. From what I have learned it's got a few things in common with paganism and the craft. <shrugs> But I don't know too much about it. It depends on the definition that you use for pagan. <shrugs> There's alot of different definitions of the word pagan, I'm certian that satanism meets up with at least one of them.

[SahuaDjet]

MM,
I guess we'll just never know about Satanism.....to make some convo I consider myself Wiccan but don't practice magick so "all Wiccans's aren't witches" :p and not "all witches are Wiccan". eheheh


the ever so crazy,
Sahu Djet :crazy:

[Lisa McKay]

I'm pretty new at sharing my ideas, so please bare with me. :)
I've always believed that there is more to what Jesus came here for than what is written in the Bible. To me, he tried to show us that all of us have this inner knowing and power(God or Goddess given, or just is). The greatest of them all is love.

Lucifer was cast from heaven because of pride. Is pride not a type of love? Self love albeit. But he took that love and used it for his own means. In other words, he took and twisted that power within, hurting others as he went along.

The Church took and abused that power, murdering people who threatened their power, and taking whatever material possesions these poor people(and wealthy)had after they died(at their hands).

And out of this chaos, Satanism was born.

I believe that there is good and evil in this world, and it's up to each individual to choose what he/she feels is right. As long as no one gets hurt:)

I haven't read about Satanism, nor understand the definition of witchcraft vs. wicca. I do feel that magic(the inner power) and spirituality are one and the same. The power of a simple wish backed up by intense desire, whether in the form of a prayer, spell, chant or mantra, is a type of spiritual magic in action.:eek:

Nuf said. Waxing philosophical here!:D Sorry.

[Shy Hawk]

I think it's important to note here the basics of Satanism. Okay, I know, who cares right? Well, just for your own personal knowledge. As far as I know, most Satanists do not worship Satan as a diety or idol or anything. Only do they symbolicly use "him" as an example.
I've read and heard from several Satanic sources, and I'm paraphrasing:
Do what you want, and if anyone stops you from doing what you want, they are killing your spirit so you may seek revenge and kill them if nessessary. Chaos is good.
I don't see as to how Satanism can be Paganism. I thought pagans were those with more than one God or those who were associated with nature or something other than what Satanism is.
I think though, that it should be noted that I do not agree with that particular religion, but it has no relation to Satan as we know him to be (or not be). They adopted the name in reverence to his associated morals and standards. Not him in particular.
I hope that this is factual and correctly states what I meant to say. Satanism....is no way close to be pagan. However, a Satanist could very well be a witch. I know a man who practices this way of life. It's unnerving to me though, because he has no rede or anything to keep him in line, ah well. Hope this helps.
Any questions,please ask.

[Shy Hawk]

As I read back, I noticed that Mol was pretty close in his statement
But Satan is a christian invention. Levay and his lackeys created a religion that gave them an excuse to do whatever they wanted and to justify it.
This is largely correct, like I said. Without judging them, as I may have in my previous post, this is the most objective way I can see it.
Shy Hawk

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Shy Hawk
As I read back, I noticed that Mol was pretty close in his statement

This is largely correct, like I said. Without judging them, as I may have in my previous post, this is the most objective way I can see it.
Shy Hawk

That was not mol's statement, he was quoting Ozymandias.

Blue

[Shy Hawk]

:eek: My bad, sorry Ozymandias.
Thanks bluecat.
Shy Hawk

[mol]

Originally posted by Shy Hawk
As I read back, I noticed that Mol was pretty close in his statement

This is largely correct, like I said. Without judging them, as I may have in my previous post, this is the most objective way I can see it.
Shy Hawk

YIKES! I did not say that... ;)

There are various different sects and Paths to Satanism and they are all valid Paths if so chosen.

[Shy Hawk]

This is true, I suppose I can't be so general. Sorry guys. That was my understanding of Satanism. But, I did generalize it GREATLY.
Shy Hawk

[Dria El]

Originally posted by mol

There are various different sects and Paths to Satanism and they are all valid Paths if so chosen.

As mol has just pointed out, Satanism is probably as diverse as Christianity, Paganism, or Wicca. In light of that, how can we lump all of them together with just a single label?

Non-labelingly,
Dria El

[Ozymandias]

I never meant to lump. I merely refer to the mongrel idiot who claims to have invented modern "satanism". It was an excuse to committ crimes and call it a religious freedom.

[Shy Hawk]

I know I should be tolerant and all but I really do agree here.
Maybe I'm just not looking at it in the right way.
Well, maybe it's because that this is not my path. To each his own huh?

[Sephiroth]

:mad: :G NOT TO BE RUDE BUT......... WHO IN THE HELL VOTED YES ON SATANISM AS A PAGAN RELIGION


Pagan: From the Latin paganus, literally meaning "country people" or "country dweller." Historically, used to describe any religion that was not monotheistic ("one god").


Paganism: A belief which centers around living in harmony with the natural cycles of life and which generally holds a deep reverence for Nature.

[Shy Hawk]

Though factually (I believe) it may not be Pagan...to some it may be considered as such, I don't know how, but maybe.
I have not heard a significant argument as to how Satanism could be Pagan, but...if anyone can shed light on this, I would love to hear it.
With no harm meant,
Shy Hawk :)

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by Shy Hawk
Though factually (I believe) it may not be Pagan...to some it may be considered as such, I don't know how, but maybe.
I have not heard a significant argument as to how Satanism could be Pagan, but...if anyone can shed light on this, I would love to hear it.
With no harm meant,
Shy Hawk :)

ive see many satanist in my town and everywhere else i wehn and the all the damn same.... i dont like to use the word hate but i do i hate them all.

[bluecat]

Hate is such a strong emotion and very hard to overcome. Satanism, while not the path you or I would follow is still a path. I do not see it as Pagan either, but I avoid such strong statement about people.

Thank You.

Blue

[Shy Hawk]

Well, here's what I always say, maybe it will work for you, maybe not. I think, if you send out perfect love, you will get back perfect love. And, if you send out true hate, you'll get that back aswell.
Or, to put it a better way, John Lennon said, "in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make". :D I certainly agree. ;) ;) ;)
I just think you should (unless it affects you personally), leave those around you, to do their own thing, just like you can do your own thing. I think individual people can be "bad people". But, I never would say an entire religion of people were "bad". I've been judged like that, and it's just not fair, or true.
Of those Satanists I've met it was more a philosophy than a religion. But hey, what do I know?
Shy Hawk

[Fawn]

Perhaps--one should research satanism before making assumptions others do not know what they are referring to by the way-- true satanists do worship nature too.
And no they are against murder, (unless its self defense) and rape, and child abuse and molesting and stealing. Yes the majority are.


how can we expect 'others' to learn tolerance of us--IF we first do not GIVE them the same respect--tolerance.

As one who came from no christian associated background I had no preconceived notions of this belief system nor do I buy into the 'devil worshipping' deal since I do not believe in the devil. Now that's a pagan belief!!

[Shy Hawk]

If you are interested, check out these sites. Don't judge till you understand, then make a reasonable decision....
http://www.lucifer.com/lucifer.html
http://www.churchofsatan.com/

Here are some of principle beliefs as I understand them to be.

The Nine Satanic Statements
from The Satanic Bible, ©1969
by Anton Szandor LaVey
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!


The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1967
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


The Nine Satanic Sins
by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1987
1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.
2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.
3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.
4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!
5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.
6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.
7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.
8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.
9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.


A FIVE-POINT PROGRAM
by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1988
In recent years, we’ve wasted far too much time explaining that Satanism has nothing to do with kidnapping, drug abuse, child molestation, animal or child sacrifice, or any number of other acts that idiots, hysterics or opportunists would like to credit us with. Satanism is a life-loving, rational philosophy that millions of people adhere to. Now we’re ready for something that goes quite a few steps beyond just explaining our principles. Every revisionist movement needs a set of goals/guidelines that are clear, concrete, and that will effect significant changes.
The following Five-Point Program reflects attitudes which allow others to decide whether they wish to align themselves with Satanism or not. Each is necessary for Satanic change to take place. When asked what we’re “doing,” here’s the answer:
1. Stratification—The point on which all the others ultimately rest. There can be no more myth of “equality” for all—it only translates to “mediocrity” and supports the weak at the expense of the strong. Water must be allowed to seek its own level without interference from apologists for incompetence. No one should be protected from the effects of his own stupidity.
2. Strict taxation of all churches—If churches were taxed for all their income and property, they’d crumble overnight of their own obsolescence, and the National Debt would be wiped out as quickly. The productive, the creative, the resourceful should be subsidized. So long as the useless and incompetent are getting paid, they should be heavily taxed.
3. No tolerance for religious beliefs secularized and incorporated into law and order issues—to re-establish “Lex Talionis” would require a complete overturning of the present in-justice system based on Judeo-Christian ideals, where the victim/defender has been made the criminal. Amnesty should be considered for anyone in prison because of his alleged “influence” upon the actual perpetrator of the crime. Everyone is influenced in what he or she does. Scapegoating has become a way of life, a means of survival for the unfit. As an extension of the Judeo-Christian cop-out of blaming the Devil for everything, criminals can gain leniency, even praise, by placing the blame on a convenient villain. Following the Satanic creed of “Responsibility to the responsible,” in a Satanic society, everyone must experience the consequences of his own actions—for good or ill.
4. Development and production of artificial human companions—The forbidden industry. An economic “godsend” which will allow everyone “power” over someone else. Polite, sophisticated, technologically feasible slavery. And the most profitable industry since T.V. and the computer.
5. The opportunity for anyone to live within a total environment of his or her choice, with mandatory adherence to the aesthetic and behavioral standards of same—Privately owned, operated and controlled environments as an alternative to homogenized and polyglot ones. The freedom to insularize oneself within a social milieu of personal well-being. An opportunity to feel, see, and hear that which is most aesthetically pleasing, without interference from those who would pollute or detract from that option.
This is the encapsulated version of the current thrust of Satanic advocacy. So when someone asks you, “Well, what do Satanists do?”, you will be qualified to tell him.




I was going to add more, but it's dark and late at night, and this one site freaked me out with spooky music and scary pictures..... :eek: sorry ya'll. This was my effort in getting educated. Hope ya's learn something.
Love and trust
Shy Hawk

[WolfWonderess]

From my understanding, true Satanism has nothing to do with Satan. True Satanism is about worshipping the Self.

Of course, most people think Satanism = devil worship, because of the name, but it's Self worship. Though, there are some people out there that worship Satan...

In my opinion, Satanism, as in worship of the actual devil, is not Neo-Pagan. That would be, in my opinion, be Christianity's antithesis, so to speak. Satan came from Christianity. Worship Satan, and you're not Neo-Pagan, as Satan is a Christian concept, so you'd thus be worshipping God's opposite.

Of course, I'm sure there can be rule bending...there are Christian Wiccans, and there are Pagans who believe in Satan, so...it gets kinda complicated and muddled. ^^;; However, I think *belief* and *worship* are different. If Pagans *believe* in the existence of the Christian evil entity, I can see that as being Pagan, as some Pagans believe in the existence of various other dark entities from other cultures. However, if a so-called Pagan *worships* said entity, they're just doing the opposite of Christianity, and it thus still ties into Christian doctrine.

Satanism, as in worship of the Self...I see it as a totally different religion that doesn't fall under Paganism. I know most people consider any religion not of the Big Three to be a Pagan one, but certainly agnosticism, atheism, and nihilism don't fall under those categories? Like...one can be pagan and agnostic (for a while I was!), but if you are *just* agnostic, I don't see it falling under the umbrella of Paganism. So, if you're *just* a Satanist, I don't see it falling under that umbrella. However, if you have both Satanic and Pagan beliefs...it can very well fall under that category.

However, as to the question of if Satanism, either one, is a Pagan tradition?

Nope. Neither concept stemmed from traditional Pagan ideas, so it's not a Pagan tradition. It stemmed from something totally different.

Hope that made sense. ^^;;

[Earthcup]

It depends, and forgive me for not reading the whole thread.

If they believe in a polytheistic pantheon from the middle east and Lucifer is their primary diety then yes.

If they have an objectivist philosophy with religion used as a metaphor, then no.

After all, Christianity isn't always monotheistic, some branches are even using the term Christopagan to seperate themselves from mainstream Christianity. If you can believe in Jesus Christ and be Pagan then you can believe in Lucifer and be Pagan.

The devil is a Semitic diety which was elaborated and "worshipped through hatred" by Christianity. His origins are as Pagan as Lilith's, Yahweh's and Baal's. He was the Tempter, the trickster god. He's in the pantheon of Canaanite Pagans.

Objectivists in Satanic drag are incredibly sad, IMO.

[nighstar]

:scans topic: ..... ^^; i know bumping is bad (i think?) but it's up now so i figure i might as well reply... lol

i vote "yes" because Satanism have nothing to do with the Christian Satan, infact, [most] Satanist don't even believe in Satan (or Hell) just like the rest of the pagan community..... there are some Satanist that do but they aren't the majority.

as for Satanist's beliefs... i'll just quote this from an article interviewing Lord Egan (Allee), high priest of the Church of Satan (http://www.churchofsatan.org)

Satanists, Allee says, do not really worship the devil or practice evil. They believe in the balance of forces; the Satanism he describes is more akin to Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Taoism than it is to Christianity in reverse. At times, Allee seems more like a philosopher than a religious leader.

"We believe that good and evil are two forces that define one another and complement one another and complete one another," Allee said. "Good and evil do not exist, but the perception of good and evil does exist."

The line is paraphrased from Nietszche, the turn-of-the-century German philosopher famous for declaring that "God is dead," and the man Allee credits with being the first modern Satanist.

Freedom and magic

Allee said Satanists disagree on whether Satan is a physical being, but they agree that both good and evil exist within everyone. Satanism, he said, is a religion of personal sovereignty, and its tenets sound much like libertarianism: People should be free to do whatever they want, so long as it does not harm others.

"Every man and every woman is the god of his or her own life," he said. "No matter how right I may be in believing the way I do, you have an equal right to believe in what you believe in."

~ The Salem Evening News
Online Edition: "The devil you know? Salem Satanist dispels myths -- at least some of them" ( Read the entire article here (http://churchofsatan.org/newsclips/TheSalemEveningNews.htm))

i think that Satanism is as much pagan as any other pagan path.

[FaeFollower]

:fofftopic Anybody ever notice how different the posts from three years ago are from the ones written in '04? Does anyone else find that really cool? People's opinions on things change in three years...And pagans don't even get excommunicated for heresy because of it. Isn't that cool?

Er. Back on topic. I voted that Satanism can be pagan, because paganism is such a broad term, you can incorporate pretty close to whatever beliefs you want and still call yourself pagan...I don't know if that goes the other way though...Pagans can be Satanists, but can Satanists be pagan? I don't know...anyone??

[nighstar]

:fofftopic Anybody ever notice how different the posts from three years ago are from the ones written in '04? Does anyone else find that really cool? People's opinions on things change in three years...And pagans don't even get excommunicated for heresy because of it. Isn't that cool?

i noticed. ^_^ very cool indeed.

[Sequoia]

I have dear friends who call themselves Satanists (even though technically they worship/etc Lucifer). . . they work with energy, interact with spirits, and do "magic", etc, among other things . . these are basically the same as a the things a 'witch' does. I think a "witch" is a person who identifies themselves as one, not a Wiccan or an energy worker. It's simply a label or a name. Not all Wiccans are witches, and not all witches are Wiccan.

I must admit, I don't know a whole lot about Satanism in general; most of what I know is that which my friends practice, which isn't the sort of common sort, I suppose. But I certainly don't think it's 'evil' or 'bad', and certainly I think a "Satanic Witch" could exist just as easily as a "Christian witch" or "Jewish Witch" or "Islamic Witch" could or anything else.

But that's just my two cents. ;)

[Psyche Ague]

"SATANIC WITCH: One can not be a satanic Witch because Witches do not believe in Satan."
From various pages on traditions, originally by Silver Ravenwolf.

My question...
Is it possible for a Satanic Witch to exist. (Not a Satanic Wiccan.)

And what are your feelings about Satanism.

Kaylara
I think someone can definitely be a Satanic Wiccan, Witch, Pagan, anything. I'm a Unitarian Universalist Buddhist Pagan and none of those are necessarily associated with each other.

I dunno, I don't like labelling people and I think spirituality especially is above labels.

Be!

[Morrighana]

I voted 'Yes' by accident... I meant to vote 'No'. :p Oops.

I think that Satanism is a Christian tradition... but that doesn't mean that one can't mix Christian traditions with Pagan ones. *shrugs* It's all about personal interpretation, right? So who's to say that someone can't interpret the two to be one and the same?

Not sure if I made any sense there. :p Sorry!

[Aidron]

Well, let's look at a few 'common' definitions of a pagan or paganism.

Theologies based upon the reverence of nature.
Those who dwell within the country or dwell in harmony with their natural surroundings.


There are countless others, but I'll stop there for now. I have never considered it a pagan tradition by definition and taking into account semantics, as well as technicalities. It is a path based upon the reversal of Christianity. Putting oneself first before you put others. Feeling free to indulge in revenge, should it be warranted. So forth, and so on.

Depending on the individual it may include the figure satan, but most often it would seem to not do so. It is based upon Christianity and comes into direct conflict with the morals, ethics, and ideals Christianity attempts to instill in others.

Christianity is not thrown into the collage of various pagan paths, belief systems, cultures, ideaologies, etc., so why should something based upon the opposite of it do as such?

Last time I checked Christianity did not encourage the destruction of nature, which I'm sure most christians (though not christians alone) are guilty of from time to time. Hence, Satanism would not promote a reverence for nature.

They are two sides of the same coin, where as paganism is an entirely different coin unto itself. This is not to state that either path is any less valid, more valid, and what have you. Only that they are based on different ideals. However, paths can be mixed and mingled between one another as the individual sees fit. You can be a satanic witch, and you can be 'technically' considered a pagan, someone who has a reverence for nature, yet believes strongly in some of the affirmations satanism puts forth, like myself. I am not pagan out of the fact that I respect a few of the beliefs satanism encourages, but because I posess a reverence for nature, if we are going by the common definitions as listed above.

[Demeter]

I have been told, rather vociferously and at length by a LaVeyan Satanist on another board I'm on, that the correct term for a female Satanist is "witch." Therefore there are Satanist witches. If Silver had said "There are no Satanist Wiccans", that would have been more correct (though given the variety of different pantheons among Wiccans, I wouldn't be surprised to find a Satanist or two somewhere).

I find it interesting that they are using it primarily as a religious title, while Pagans tend to use it in the practical sense of someone who does magic, whether or not they are religious. Once upon a time according to Gardner, "Wiccan" and "witch" meant the same thing. Now they no longer do in common usage. Perhaps the Satanist terminology will also change with time.

[Kes]

Some people in this thread have stated that Satanism can't be "pagan" because it uses Christian imagery and Christian archetypes.

But how far do you have to go "away" from Christianity before something can be "pagan"? I mean, Gardner and his pals used quite a bit of Christian mysticism in their own work. In contrast, most Satanists seem to be either atheist or apathists.

Moreover, if we're using the definition of "pagan" that bases itself on paganus, that basically means that we can't include any high magic or "elite" traditions (for instance, Druidic traditions wouldn't therefore be "pagan" because it was practiced by a relatively urbanized elite). On the other hand, using paganus would also include some forms of regional Christianity.


What it really comes down to is that there still isn't a clear definition of what is and is not "pagan".



As to whether or not there can be a "Satanic witch".... Sure, why not? Isn't that like asking "could you have a Wiccan priest"? :lol:

[theblackrose]

ok, forgive me if this has already been said in this thread, but (original topic:) arent female members of the kkk called witches? (something my dad told me when i was explaining my religious path, and being a presbyterian (forgive spelling please) i am unsure whether this was a genuin statement, or an effort to make me reconsider my beliefs) and so almost anyone who is considered to use spells can take this title, reguardless of their religious beliefs?

[Muireannach]

My question...
Is it possible for a Satanic Witch to exist. (Not a Satanic Wiccan.)

LaVey wrote a book called the Satanic witch which discusses lesser and greater magic and the rituals of the satanic witch.

Satanists cannot be pagan in my view as we do not believe in a greater power. We also cannot be called a path of christianity as we do not believe in God, Satan, Mary and so forth. I beleive it is it's own path. Someone said it best earlier when they quoted how it is closer related to eastern religions, when someone calls it christianity in reverse they are referring more to groups that believe in the devil's exsistance.

I would define my faith but thankfully others have posted the statments and principles. I urge people to learn about LaVey Satanism before making assumptions, it is a lot gentler than what you think.

[Muireannach]

Satanism as a recognized religion today was created by that ignorant little sxcuse of a philosopher, LeVay(sp?). It currently has little to do with the older concepts. But Satan is a christian invention. Levay and his lackeys created a religion that gave them an excuse to do whatever they wanted and to justify it. As for a Satanic witch? Ya got me.

In regards to this statement I believe it to be sheer ignorance. I don't like the idea of people bashing my religious path because guess what? I don't do that to anyone else! Have you ever read any of LaVey's works? Do you research the relgion? Most likely not by your post.

"an excuse to do whatever they wanted"
It's funny how we can't do whatever we want. We are against murder, rape, harm to children and animals. We are also against stupidity, presumptuousness, lack of respect, and other social ills. So Satanism is not an "excuse" to be without moral and social responsibility.

[Muireannach]

ive see many satanist in my town and everywhere else i wehn and the all the damn same.... i dont like to use the word hate but i do i hate them all.

How lovely it is to be hated, it amazes me how every satanist lives in your town so you can make the generalized assumption about us. There are lots of good satanists, give people a chance. It amazes me how Satanism is somehow "Acceptable" to bash in the view of some.

Perhaps--one should research satanism before making assumptions others do not know what they are referring to by the way-- true satanists do worship nature too.
And no they are against murder, (unless its self defense) and rape, and child abuse and molesting and stealing. Yes the majority are.


how can we expect 'others' to learn tolerance of us--IF we first do not GIVE them the same respect--tolerance.

As one who came from no christian associated background I had no preconceived notions of this belief system nor do I buy into the 'devil worshipping' deal since I do not believe in the devil. Now that's a pagan belief!!

Thankyou, I was beginning to feel unwelcome here, it was a breath of fresh air to read your post. All I ask for is respect to the Satanists here on MW, I respect everyone else's path, and all I ask is respect in return.

[Earthcup]

Actually certain Christian heresies can be Pagan. There are polytheistic Christians and some who identify as Christopagans.

Really it boils to down to what you believe yourself to be and what you're willing to defend.

[samiaminsane]

I could argue on either side of it, but personally I would say no! Of course, there are Christian Wiccans so why not Satanic Wiccans??? sigh... there really is no answer.

"If you take the Christian bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain."
- Herbalist Carol McGrath

[Heathen Dawn]

Satanic Witch? Yes. Witchcraft is not a religion.

Satanic pagan? That sounds like a contradiction in terms. Satan is the Abrahamic god of evil, not a member of any pagan pantheon.

My feelings about Satanism? I dunno how to say it, I feel it’s ... dirty. I avoid Satanism like the plague. Abrahamic dualism is just revolting to me.

[Earthcup]

Satan is the Abrahamic god of evil, not a member of any pagan pantheon.

Pantheon, groups of Gods, polytheistic. It's possible. The Semitic nomadic tribes were originally polytheists.

[redlady]

Gee, a belief system that has as some of it's tenants to respect others,harm no child, or harm no animal except for food.....how can that be considered "dirty"? Ya know, you'd be surprised how many of your friends, neighbors, and-gulp-relatives might be carrying that little red card **wink**. So you may know more than one person who is a :smoke: :broomride !

[Heathen Dawn]

Satan as we know him in Christianity is a Zoroastrian invention. First, no matter what the Christians say, Satan is not mentioned in Genesis. Where he is mentioned, in Job, he is just one angel among many, and his name hasatan means “the obstacle”. By the time the NT was written, the Jews had been steeped with the Zoroastrian dualism of the Persian Empire. Satan had then assumed the same role as the Zoroastrian God Angra Mainyu—God of Evil.

[Sequoia]

Thanks for pointing that out. . . To the best of my knowlage (and the extensive knowlage of friends), Satan hardly ever shows up in the bible at all. . .

. . . kay, I forgot where I was going with that. But yes. I agree. ^^;

[Muireannach]

"Dirty"?

Hmmmm, I bathe everyday, so satanists cant be dirty.
The religion contains nothing "dirty."

So really that was just a comment meant to bash.

[mol]

Satan as we know him in Christianity is a Zoroastrian invention. First, no matter what the Christians say, Satan is not mentioned in Genesis. Where he is mentioned, in Job, he is just one angel among many, and his name hasatan means “the obstacle”. By the time the NT was written, the Jews had been steeped with the Zoroastrian dualism of the Persian Empire. Satan had then assumed the same role as the Zoroastrian God Angra Mainyu—God of Evil.
Most Satanists don't believe in Satan.

[Heathen Dawn]

Most Satanists don't believe in Satan.

So why do they call themselves that?

[Heathen Dawn]

The religion contains nothing "dirty."

What about the Black Mass?

[Phoenix_Blue]

So why do they call themselves that?
To piss off Christians, mostly. At least, that's why LaVey did it.

[Muireannach]

We call ourselves satanists because we use the fictional character Satan as an example of how to be.. Satan really (totally condensed version) was someone who took care of himself and avoided stupidity. As Satanists we wish to eat from the christian tree of knowledge as we believe ourselves worthy as the character "Satan" would of.

Black Mass is something that is associated with devil worship, not Satanism...two different beasts.

[Heathen Dawn]

We call ourselves satanists because we use the fictional character Satan as an example of how to be.. Satan really (totally condensed version) was someone who took care of himself and avoided stupidity. As Satanists we wish to eat from the christian tree of knowledge as we believe ourselves worthy as the character "Satan" would of.

Okay.

Black Mass is something that is associated with devil worship, not Satanism...two different beasts.

Oh! Now I understand where my confusion came from—I thought Satanism and devil worship were the same thing. Muireannach, I owe you an apology. Please accept my apology.

[Muireannach]

Apology accepted.

Devil worshippers believe in Satan and God.
Satanists (followers of LaVey) favour philosophy rather than a beleif is something we believe is fake. You can learn about it at http://www.satanism101.com it explains things well.

[EarthWhispers]

Just my thoughts

Xois

Well, I agree with your thoughts...

[Yasmine Galenorn]

Satanism seems to primarily be utilized to piss off the Christians. I generally group it as a perverted form of that belief system and most Satanists I've known were looking for a way to boost their ego and tick off their parents.

Yasmine G.

[Heathen Dawn]

Satanism belongs to the Christian religion and is a perverted form of their belief system.

HAHAHAHAHA! After I’ve extinguished my flames with Muireannach, I see someone else will have to do that too... :lol:

[nighstar]

Satanists cannot be pagan in my view as we do not believe in a greater power.

i dont believe in a "greater power", but i still consider myself pagan.... :ugh: i do kinda feel out of place among so much goddess/god worship but i still consider myself pagan.... weirdness :crylaugh:

[Calzaer]

Holy shit this is an old thread! :hairraise 2001? Wow!

Anyway.

Muir:
We also cannot be called a path of christianity as we do not believe in God, Satan, Mary and so forth.

At the risk of having my larynx eaten... doesn't that sort of make Satanists "pagans" by definition? :D

[LittleRhiannon]

I think the problem with this poll is that the 'pagan' and 'witch' are not the same thing. You can be a witch and not be pagan. Sure, satanists can be witches, but whether or not they're pagan depends on what kind of satanism they practice.

[Muireannach]

Satanism seems to primarily be utilized to piss off the Christians. I generally group it as a perverted form of that belief system and most Satanists I've known were looking for a way to boost their ego and tick off their parents.

Yasmine G.

I happen to know a 65 year old satansit, do you think he's doing it to piss off his parents?
I take care of myself, I organise my world, and try to get the most out of my life, and guess what? my parents think I'm "well balanced." So please get rid of the images of people sacrificing animals and dressing as marilyn manson. I'd also like to add that, once again, generalizations and snide comments are a form of disrespect to the beliefs of others.

Satanism was not created to "piss off christians," I love how people who have never even read LaVey feel they know all about the subject. LaVey created it based on his belief of the human animal and how to get the most out of life, not as a counter defence to christianity, he believed true satanists are born, not made, and thus a true satanist would not be one to simply piss of others.

Calzaer...That is a good argument, I suppose perhaps you can see it that way, there are really lots of arguments to either side. It was refreshing to read a comment that didn't pertain to the repetition of "I hate them" and so forth as the trend of this thread seems to be...

[Calzaer]

Calzaer...That is a good argument, I suppose perhaps you can see it that way, there are really lots of arguments to either side. It was refreshing to read a comment that didn't pertain to the repetition of "I hate them" and so forth as the trend of this thread seems to be...

Oh, hell, I don't mind Satanists at all. I would have mailed in an application form myself, but.. well.. I still sort of kind of a little believe in an external interventionist deity. A smidge. As much as I'd rather not... it's kind of hard not to believe in someone you've personally met. I think she did that on purpose.

Anyway. I like Satanists, and if certain bits of my life were just slightly modified, I'd probably be one myself.

[Oh, and then there's the problem that it's hard enough to get a job as a teacher as an out-of-the-closet Wiccan, trying it as a Satanist would probably not work half as well.]

[Earthcup]

Actually LeVay just added a religous element to objectivism which was first promoted by Ayn Rand.

[BrightStar]

Hi all!!!
I've read Ayn Rand,but not Lavey or any Satanists.
I do know a couple,and they see themselves as Pagan.So,I'm unsure.
To me,Rand kind of took Nietzsche and mixed it with unrestrained capitalism.I swear,that book "Atlas Shrugged" ,I just thought it was the craziest thing I ever read.My will,my toys,my stuff,and if you don't play by my rules,I'm going home.
Just my opinion,though.
Peace and Love
BrightStar

[Earthcup]

I loved "Atlas Shrugged" even thought it was incredibly redundant. I'm still waiting for a big chunk of free time so I can tackle "The Fountainhead".

[Crystal_Raye]

Any ratified religion that is not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish is considered Pagan and Satanism is a ratified religion.

[mol]

Satanism seems to primarily be utilized to piss off the Christians. I generally group it as a perverted form of that belief system and most Satanists I've known were looking for a way to boost their ego and tick off their parents.

Yasmine G.Good grief. Well, letme refute then...the Satanists I have known were on their Path because it was the correct one for them and they didnt do it for an ego boost or to put down Christianity.

You said 'seems to be' so hopefully you are searching for a little enlightenment about this primarily very peaceful Path which I have come to know intimately and respect very much.

Lets not get into Satanist bashing, please. Bashing someones spiritual Path on this site is not allowed...hopefully everyone who has made snide, derogatory comments at Satanism in this thread and elsewhere will read this and refrain from doing so in the future.

[Kaylara]

ADMIN MODE

2. No bashing of other religions or personal Path’s is allowed in this community.

[Theres]

i voted 'No', Satanism is not a Pagan path. there are many reasons which have already been posted, but i'd like to address something else... namely, the definition of Paganism.
'nature worship' is not a relevant criteria for determining Paganism (neo-Paganism perhaps). after all, the Romans were mosrt certainly Pagan, but i would hardly say that nature worship was very close to their hearts!

[LittleRhiannon]

so, now I have a question. I know about LaVeyan Satanism, they don't actually worship Satan. But what about Luciferian Satanists? I thought I heard something about them...Lucifer was a persian(?) god of light...thats all I really have heard. Would you consider these people pagans?

[Earthcup]

Setians are another branch of Satanism that stem for Egyptian myth...

[Phoenix_Blue]

Satanism seems to primarily be utilized to piss off the Christians. I generally group it as a perverted form of that belief system and most Satanists I've known were looking for a way to boost their ego and tick off their parents.
:eyebrow: One could say the same thing for many Pagans and be just accurate enough to perpetuate a very nasty stereotype. Certainly the above group would represent a portion of Satanists, but not all of them, I'm sure.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Is that the fact that people are confusing satanic cultists with People who follow the religion satanism.

The satanic cults are of course a perversion and are meant to rebel against an otherwise peaceful faith.

Satanists are not about ritual sacrifices. From what I have read, there are about self improvement. Being assertive with your wants and needs, and no offense intended, but egoism.

So let's weigh the scales. Sacrifices, egoism.

:colorful: Mist :colorful:

[Sequoia]

About Luciferian Satanists- Well, that would be the sort my lovers are, as they believe in Lucifer and work with elements surrounding that belief. . . to my knowlage, it is Lucifer the fallen angel, not Lucifer as a god, be it of light or anything else. :)

But no, it still doesn't involve eating babies or "black mass" so far as I know. . . and to my knowlage, they revere the Christian god as well, to a certain extent. Not sure if this is the same for all, but they are a very respectful kind of people, and it saddens me greatly to see ANY path being attacked on this site, or labled a tantrum or way of rebelling from Christianity. Any of those things could be (and frequently are) said of Paganism, any form of Paganism.

Not to be rude. . . but . . . crikey. Grow up.

[LittleRhiannon]

I didn't think they did that! I just wanted to know if they were considered pagan satanists!

[Sequoia]

Oh! Sweetie, no no no, not you- the ones who have been really super insulting, not you!!

:hugz:

[Marchosias]

Satanists are not about ritual sacrifices. From what I have read, there are about self improvement. Being assertive with your wants and needs, and no offense intended, but egoism.



Simple, elegant, to the point.

I like.

[asher]

as i had voted i also agreed that paganism is not satanic because i dont believe in satan anyway blessed be :crazyman:

[mol]

Is that the fact that people are confusing satanic cultists with People who follow the religion satanism.

The satanic cults are of course a perversion and are meant to rebel against an otherwise peaceful faith.

Satanists are not about ritual sacrifices. From what I have read, there are about self improvement. Being assertive with your wants and needs, and no offense intended, but egoism.

So let's weigh the scales. Sacrifices, egoism.


Ah, Mist always seems to get the drift. :) Good to see you around. You see, what you have described, the perversion of religion, happens in all walks of faith and non-faith. :) I mean, all we have to do is look to radical Muslims blowing shit up and the flak that is immediately put onto peaceful and loving Muslims around the world. Or, how about those fundies? It happens in all walks.

We just have to know the difference.

[mol]

as i had voted i also agreed that paganism is not satanic because i dont believe in satan anyway blessed be :crazyman:
:D That wasnt the question.

[zakzekezedd]

Well, since the practice of magic isn't necessarily bound to any specific religious path I suppose there certainly could be Satanic witches. As to whether Satanism is a form of Paganism, that is an interesting question. The broadest, general definition of Paganism is any religious practice that isn't Christian, Judaic, or Islamic might make one say that Satanism is a Pagan path. But as many have pointed out, Satanism is very firmly rooted in Christianity....even if it might have been intended as a sort of backhanded slap in the face of Christian dogma. If you look at it that way, then no, Satanism really wouldn't qualify as a Pagan practice.

[Isil Darkmoon]

I think there can be Satanic Witches the same way there can be Christian Witches--if you can mix them and they work for you, fine. But as for what the poll asked specifically, NO I do not think Satanism is a Pagan tradition, but a Christian one entirely.

[Calzaer]

NO I do not think Satanism is a Pagan tradition, but a Christian one entirely.

*DEEP mournful sigh*

:rolleyes:

muttering: "For the love of all that's holy, the order is: first read, then post. First read, then post. Christ in a brandy snifter!

[dionysus]

im a satanic pagan why does that confuse so many peaple

[dionysus]

satanism was the first pagan path

[dionysus]

if anyone has any questions about satanic paganism please ask

[Arylon]

satanism was the first pagan path


Please explain....ya lost me on this one... :whatgives

[Muireannach]

Satanism was not the "first Pagan path."
Paganism is derived from the traditions and religion of the ancients, Satanism was created by Anton LaVey.

[Marchosias]

satanism was the first pagan path


Um...no.

There were pagan paths going on long before anyone had ever heard the word Satan.

Modern Satanism, which I practice, was created by LaVey.

[Aidron]

I'm a bit torn on this one.

On one hand, my consideration for paganism is a path that appreciates and reveres nature. On the other, paganism can be considered anything that is not mainstream or non-christian.

So, from my perspective, it is, and it isn't. Reverence for nature is not a major facet, if one at all (I haven't spoken to many satanists, despite the fact that my beliefs coincide with most of theirs'), but it is hardly mainstream (though it could become that, just as Wicca has), and is definitely not Christian, although it is based upon the opposition of Christianity. That phrasing doesn't sound right to me, but it's the best I can do at the moment in the sucky mood I'm in. :lol:

I've posted here before, but obviously, my views are changing (no idea what I posted last time it's been so long) as I'm beginning to delve more into Satanism.

[SilverMaiden]

I've done some reading on their belief system and read articles in papers from some some groups that got protested for events and such.

I think like any group that isn't monothesist they get a knocked around quite a bit. For the exact same reasons.

One thing I always keep in mind is that many beliefs were going on long before the bible and many beliefs will go on long after too.

[rain_fallen_tears]

satanism was the first pagan path

:rollingla

My personal look is that no....Satanism is not a Pagan path. Technically under the description of paganism...I guess....but considering Satan is involved I would certainly wonder if those who were satanic would also believe in Jesus not as the christan 'savior' but whatever they morphed it into...thus turning into a christan religion...not pagan....now I could be way off as I do not know very much at all about satanism....but Satan is of Christan mythology, not of Pagan. So it seems correct to assume it is Christan; just the backlash version.

[ArKane]

To some conservative Christians, all religions other than their own are forms of Satanism in which followers worship Satan or one of his demons. So, they view Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Wicca, and dozens of other religions as varieties of Satanism.
However, most people recognize that there are several dozens of different religions in the world, with different beliefs about deity, humanity, and the rest of the universe. One of these is Wicca. Another is Satanism. These two religions have entirely different beliefs about deity, different rules for ethical behavior, different expectations from their membership, different views of the universe, different seasonal days of celebration, etc. Wiccans do not recognize an all-evil deity like Satan; he belongs to Christianity and Islam.

Wicca and Satanism are not at all similar religions. However, the Christian church linked them in the past -- particularly during the Witch burning times of the late Middle Ages and Renaissance. They regarded Witches as Satan worshipers. Some Christian denominations have not been particularly thorough in correcting mistakes of the past. So, Wicca and Satanism continue to be linked in many people's minds.

[Toriach]

:lol Boy use the old S word and it sure gets a response. Well personally I do disagree with the notion that Satanism was the "first" Pagan path. The first pagan path was some slope browed proto human jibbering away to forces that he didn't have to see to know they were there. Since Og didn't leave any written records it's a bit silly for anyone to try to claim that their religion came first.

Having said that, why can't Satanists be Pagans? The love of self that as I understand it is a core tenet of LaVey Satanism certainly is not incompatible with a love of Nature and the Earth.

And if you choose to use the term "witch" to indicate any magic user than sure there can be Satanist Witches too.

Now I must end this post as my black mistress summons me to do her bidding. (In other words my black lab mutt has to go do the thing. :))

[fireswimmer]

I believe that satanism and paganism do not mix because of the fact that satanism is merely the oppostion to christianity. True paganism is much more complicated than that.

Fireswimmer

[Druchii]

If micheal jackson can father children...
The platypus is real...
and we put a rover on Mars,...
then yes, it's possible.

[mucgwyrt]

If micheal jackson can father children...
The platypus is real...
and we put a rover on Mars,...
then yes, it's possible.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[wickedlizard]

Satanism is definitely NOT a pagan tradition. Satan was invented by the Christians to undermine a very old pagan tradition of Pan (also known by other names such as Bacchus and others) , to make Pan look evil when in reality there´s nothing evil about this deity. He was a deity that intermingled hunting and man. This deity was made to look half animal and half man so that man could better connect to nature. The hunt also normally took place in the winter, where the gathering of fruit etc was made impossible for food. The winter in those times was considered to be the time that everything died so that this deity is also connected to death, but not in the evil sense.:spaceman:

[charmedkisses1]

"SATANIC WITCH: One can not be a satanic Witch because Witches do not believe in Satan."
From various pages on traditions, originally by Silver Ravenwolf.

My question...
Is it possible for a Satanic Witch to exist. (Not a Satanic Wiccan.)

And what are your feelings about Satanism.

Kaylara

Just like Christians, there are good witches and bad witches; of many "denominations"... anyone who practices witchraft can be a witch..... personally I've seen Satanists practice witchcraft so yes THOSE satanists are witches.. just not the kind we are....
:huddle:

[Xentor]

Satanism is definitely NOT a People tradition. Satan was invented by the Christians to undermine a very old People tradition of Pan (also known by other names such as Bacchus and others) , to make Pan look evil when in reality there´s nothing evil about this deity. He was a deity that intermingled hunting and man. This deity was made to look half animal and half man so that man could better connect to nature. The hunt also normally took place in the winter, where the gathering of fruit etc was made impossible for food. The winter in those times was considered to be the time that everything died so that this deity is also connected to death, but not in the evil sense.:spaceman:

Whoops! You may want to look at the work of a man named Anton LaVey. Satanism is a real religion, it comes in different flavours. And some of our members are satanists.

[asamananara]

I think a confusion of terms is to blame for a large part of this debate.
As many others have already said, Satanism is a life-philosophy based
upon the tenents of egotism, selfishness, and pride as virtues.
This could certainly be seen as a pagan tradition.
However, I do have to suggest that there are satanists, and then there
are satan worshippers. Many years ago I counted myself among the latter.
Diabolic satan worship is an intimate, personal dedication to Lucifer as the
manifest advesary of jehovah, focused upon earthly acts of dark blasphemy.
There are indeed people out there who prostrate themselves before Satan
as his servants and children, and who hold no doubt as to the objective
reality of his existance. They will gladly act in accordance with his command.
Performing blood sacrifices, ritual rape, desecration of churches, and grave-
robbing are common rites, and are seen as holy acts of glory. Satan Worshippers
typically do not seek out the spotlight, and maintain a low public profile. However,
just because these people dwell in the shadows doesn't mean they don't exist.
It means that their master does not serve the light.
Satan Worship is a "perversion of christianity", and as such cannot rightly be
considered a pagan path.

[soilsigh aingeal]

I don't think that Satanism is a Pagan religion and I don't think you have to be Pagan to be a witch.

[SacredWithin]

"SATANIC WITCH: One can not be a satanic Witch because Witches do not believe in Satan."
From various pages on traditions, originally by Silver Ravenwolf.

My question...
Is it possible for a Satanic Witch to exist. (Not a Satanic Wiccan.)

And what are your feelings about Satanism.

Kaylara

I admit, I haven't read any of the replies, so if I've repeated anything, ignore me.

I don't know why everyone choses to distance themselves so much from Satanism. Is this some type of leash Christianity still holds on people or what?

Satanists don't beleive in an actual demonic being. Anything that is satan is basically anything that goes against your personal values. It's a similar belief of what many people feel what the devil is in the bible. Not many people outside the Christian faith I know feel the devil is a real entity.

[Merlinawakend777]

please dont sue me if i am wrong here

but from what i remeber knowing the word satan comes from the jewish word sheta which litteraly translates as the advasory or to be held back.
thus for some people getting an f in school or using meth in life, or something like that would be SATAN

now as far as if the boogy man himself is real
from what i have learned there is a dark force that does hold us back, but it only has as much power as an individual gives it,


also the horned monster with a pitch fork comes from jedeo christians, and the crusiades,
they combined
this god here'
that demon there
and ooh look
its satan
lets scare ignorant people into submission with this guy.

then comes levey
and the fullfillment of self desires philosophy

abnd now we have satanist.

by leveys book there is satanic witches

and by the chrisitian definition of pagan


anything that is not "christian" is pagan"
that could mean even the jewsih faith is considered pagan

something to think about :huddle: :spaceman:

[Regulus]

Sure, I think Satanism can be considered a pagan religion. Why not? Its not all demons this and bad christians that. OK so the last part is BS but still. They want to shed their inhibitions and quit doing as society tells them. They see Satan as a symbol of all that is inherent in human nature. All the things the Bible tells your to shun, they embrace. I see no problem with that as long as nobody gets hurt that doesn't want to.

400 posts, whoo hoo

[Flutterby_whispers]

No ~ imo it's not ..

[la tortuga]

With all I've read on Satanism, the biggest thing I could pick up is "An eye for an eye, as long has HE started it." and also that Satanists tend to... do without fear of punishment, because they don't believe in punishment. They believe in just doing upon impulse, which isn't exactly something that really is included in Wiccca or a part of it in really any way. Wicca has rules. You are punished for what you do wrong, and I think "No". The basic ethics and morals are different in many ways.

[scaerie faerie]

With all I've read on Satanism, the biggest thing I could pick up is "An eye for an eye, as long has HE started it." and also that Satanists tend to... do without fear of punishment, because they don't believe in punishment. They believe in just doing upon impulse, which isn't exactly something that really is included in Wiccca or a part of it in really any way. Wicca has rules. You are punished for what you do wrong, and I think "No". The basic ethics and morals are different in many ways.

But wasn't the original question whether Satanism and Paganism were compatible, not Satanism and Wicca?

For myself, I can see it working if the person is drawn to it. It ain't for me, but still...

most Satanists do not worship Satan as a diety or idol or anything. Only do they symbolicly use "him" as an example.


That's true in the case of members of the Church of Satan, who generally do seem to see him as more of a symbolic figure. Anton LaVey defined this view of Satan in various writings, the quickest and easiest being the 9 Satanic statements, which should be easy enough to find on google or suchlike. However, this is not true for all Satanists; Theistic Satanists (again, try googling it) believe in the literal existence of this being, and worship him.

[Wulk]

If anyone has read the satanic bible, it revolves around the 5 elements on the pentagram. Spirit, earth, fire, water, air. So I believe witchcraft has a connection here.

[scaerie faerie]

[Nods]

[lednevir]

I think Anton Levey's book The Satanic Bible has alot of wisdom.It's about focusing one your truewill not swearing allegence to any being.Jesus is about love and swearing allegence to any being is just promising that you will lie to that person when you change your mind.Life is about change.Witch craft is about finding and creating your truewill,the reason you are here,your path to the karma you need,connection to Divine....Therefore Satanism is a form of witchcraft but not satanic worship because that is focusing on something other that your own will thereby giving up your truewill.

#1 rule;
as it harms none do what you will

[goldenweb]

I've been reading through this thread with great interest. I have no knowledge of Satanism or what the practice involves, but there's a fascinating article which examines the appearance of Satan/Lucifer in the Bible, and how many mistranslations, misconceptions and deliberate re-writing of the Hebrew texts led to our perception of Satan/Lucifer today. heres the link:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

[Morr]

i voted "maybe"..
Satanism is not about Satan, after all.. but it is about ego and everything revolving around one's personal needs & wants, regardless (most of the time) of others & their needs & wants.
A person who follows Satanism could essentially be a witch, much like a Christian or a Jew could be a witch. The concept of one's faith in a specific Divine, or not - doesnt apply here.
However, most witches are also aware of their surroundings, are nature lovers & they are receptive to others' feelings, etc.
If a Satanist who follows his faith religously does magick to help him gain whatever he wants regardless of his environment, and ultimately the universe - then i think that eventually it wouldnt work out.

but then again, the concept of the universe and regards to others since youre ultimately somhow connected and/or the karma deal or salvation belief are parts of diff traditions which arent part of satanism, so a satanic witch could just dismiss all that I've just written..

I voted maybe but now im changing my vote to "yes"..
anyone can be a witch.
lol

[Muireannach]

I am back, and am once again amazed at how many people neglect to read the responses in a post before posting their opinions and misconceptions. On a lighter note the posts that are pure misconceptions are now blanced off with thoughtful and intellegent posters.

Satanism is not about Satan, after all.. but it is about ego and everything revolving around one's personal needs & wants, regardless (most of the time) of others & their needs & wants

Presuming that you mean we don't care about harming others, I will have to clarify things.

We do not believe in harming anyone physically or mentally unless:

IV If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Those we do not harm are:

IX Do not harm little children.
X Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food

Read this page and you will understand our moral boundaries.
http://www.satanism101.com

[Morr]

i didnt say that satanists mean to harm anyone whenever they want in order to gain whatever they want.
but it very much revolves around ego and self.. as opposed to say other religion that revolve around putting yourself/physical self last and putting others/nature/divine first.

and on a diff note, i think that using the term "lair" already throws people who dont follow satanism off track. Te fact that treating someone who "annoys" you with cruelty, could also seem not very friendly or respectful.

I'm just expressing what Satanism seems like to outsiders, by reading the simple rules/guidelines of the religion.

i dont say its wrong, at all.. to each their own. But i was making a simple observation.

[Cornflake_Girl8]

I voted "no" simply for the fact that Satan is an angel from the Christian faith. Pagans know of no angels.

I do believe that dark paganism exists as a sub religion of the main branch of paganism. We have all these "hi, I'm white light and all goodness and wholesome". Most people who are pagan give the illusion that the world is nothing but rainbows and unicorns.

Dark paganism, however, embraces the tornadoes, lightning storms, tsunamis (sp?), and vengeance. If anything, that part is likened more to the followers of Satanism (even if LaVey wasn't all right in the head).

[Cornflake_Girl8]

If anyone has read the satanic bible, it revolves around the 5 elements on the pentagram. Spirit, earth, fire, water, air. So I believe witchcraft has a connection here.

Interesting point, but the Bible was written in the dawn of a new age whereas paganism is the oldest religion on earth.

[Mistress_Ravenshadow]

i believe satanism falls under the category of Christianity.. if you believe that Satan exists then you have to also believe in the existence of the Christian Deity and some form of biblical teaching..
dark Christianity perhaps. cant have light without dark cant have day without night so it would be a logical conclusion that satanism is the dark half of Christianity..

[Amethyst Rose]

Oh, my....how time changes opinions. Way back in 2001 when this post originated I apparently answered "No" to the poll. I would like to change my answer.

It is absolutely possible to be a witch and be Satanic. Just as it's possible to be a witch and be Jewish, or Buddhist or Christian, etc. Your religion has absolutely no bearing on if you can be a witch or not.

[Ninjakitten]

Is Satanism a Pagan tradition? Hmm. On the one hand, Satan can be considered a Christian god/adversary in a literal sense. That would make him part of a Christian pantheon. On the other hand, Satanism tends to be either atheistic with a deliberate rejection of Christian mores (which would make it glorified atheism, like LeVayan Satanism), or is a rejection of Christian mores by worshiping an adversary which, in some people's views, was a god from other, more pagan traditions, like Lucifer and Baal being considered other versions of Satan (whether or not that's right). I have to say "maybe" just because Satanism is an umbrella that encompasses everything from traditions that could be considered Christian at root (even if it is the rejection of Christianity), or it could be atheism, or it could be reclaiming the roots of where the concept of Satan could have come from (which would technically make it Pagan).

[aluokaloo]

well why woiuldn't it be? There are plenty of Satanists who practice magic, its not only for pagans. Everything from atheists to christians and muslims can practice magick. Sure there are, would i consider it a pagan tradition? Nope! Too me they are a special brand of religion all their own.

[aluokaloo]

I never meant to lump. I merely refer to the mongrel idiot who claims to have invented modern "satanism". It was an excuse to committ crimes and call it a religious freedom.


you know, perhaps if you went in and checked out what modern satanism is all about you would realize that levay was no mongrel idiot, nor was he using satanism to justify doing whatever the hell he wanted, he also has a strong sense of responsibnility, and understood that with power comes responsibility, so I might suggest lookinmg into his literature, before judging him and the whole lot of satanmists, and I have known wuite a few in my lifetime as idiots. Please don't take this as an attack, I don't practice Satanism myself, i rather ike alot of their views on life, but their Faith is just not for me, I am simply trying to clear up misunderstanding, since the satanists get as much flak misunderstandings, and stiffer opposition then the lot of us ever will.

[Mithrea]

you know, perhaps if you went in and checked out what modern satanism is all about you would realize that levay was no mongrel idiot, nor was he using satanism to justify doing whatever the hell he wanted, he also has a strong sense of responsibnility, and understood that with power comes responsibility, so I might suggest lookinmg into his literature, before judging him and the whole lot of satanmists, and I have known wuite a few in my lifetime as idiots. Please don't take this as an attack, I don't practice Satanism myself, i rather ike alot of their views on life, but their Faith is just not for me, I am simply trying to clear up misunderstanding, since the satanists get as much flak misunderstandings, and stiffer opposition then the lot of us ever will.

The post you are referring to was made back in 2001 by a poster who has not been active since 2001. The thread was moderated several times after that statement was made. :)

[aluokaloo]

oops.