Pagans and deadly force

[Valnorran]

Hello all. I am new to these forums (or should that be fora?) and look forward to numerous entertaining discussions. I shall attempt to start one.

Where do modern Pagans stand on the issue of using deadly force in self-defense? Understand that I am only speaking of situations that are of the absolute gravest extreme, such as an instance in which you are cornered by someone (or several people) who clearly and obviously wish to inflict severe injury/death on you or your loved ones in the immediate future. There is absolutely no chance of anyone coming to your aid. Even if you have a cell phone, do you honestly think predatory thugs will have the consideration to let you use it? So you are trapped and alone. You did not go looking for trouble. Trouble came looking for you. You tried to avoid it, but it wouldn't let you. No one is coming to help you. No one else cares. Your life and possibly the lives of those you love hang in the balance. You have the means of employing deadly force. Do you?

I made my mind up on this issue a long time ago, but I am very curious to know the opinions of other Pagans. What do ya'll think? I thank any and all in advance for their mature opinions.

[Danustouch]

Well..I suppose that you are posing this question with the Rede in mind.

To me, the Rede is more a guideline as far as something to check ourselves and our actions against. It is not a law.

My answer to this question is that if deadly force MUST be used to defend yourself or loved ones, then, it is permissable. I think it should always be the last resort that one uses, of course.

However, I don't believe that we are meant to "Turn the Other Cheek", or to let ourselves become martyrs. We are as Sacred To the Goddess as any other creature on this planet. And thus, we have a responsibility to defend ourselves as we must. Remember, the Goddess doesn't only wear the face of the Mother, or of the gentle Maiden. She also wears the face of the Destroyer (kali), the Warrior (Morrigan), and of deaths embrace. I don't believe that Deity holds double standards. If we are the embodiement of devine nature, which I believe that we are, then we must also wear this face at times. The dark face.

[Myst]

I don't follow the Rede at all so it doesn't even have to be so dire a situation for me to defend myself.

[Melysande]

I tend use the Rede as a guideline, but I'm not bound to it because I'm not a Wiccan. In general, "That which does not kill me had better run away VERY fast before I get the chance to catch it and teach it a lesson."

[Eeluna]

I would defend myself and my loved ones--to the death if necessary. I wouldn't go looking for trouble, but I have no qualms about using deadly force if no other options are available.

When you think about this in connection with the Rede, you realize that by allowing someone to harm you, you are, in a sense, causing harm. It is impossible to live even one day without harming anything, so you try to cause the least harm. By letting a criminal harm you, and perhaps allowing him to continue harming others in the future, you would perpetuate a greater harm. It would be better to stop him now.

[Danustouch]

I don't follow the Rede at all so it doesn't even have to be so dire a situation for me to defend myself

Ok, then this begs another question. If it doesn't have to be a situation where you are being directly, physically attacked, and you've exhausted all other means of defending yourself, then, what situations would you consider warrant deadly force?

Do you believe that some situations where deadly force is used to be "Excessive" to the circumstances?

[Myst]

That's easy. I just go by the law. According to the law, one has the right to use an equal amount of force in defence. Thus if one feels their life is threatened, they are justified in causing death or grievous bodily harm.

http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/cons/rccd/section1p2.html

[Danustouch]

I agree with that, I guess. However, if it were a case of someone threaghtening to do harm to me, I'd try handling it through calling the police first. Though, in the case that valnorran was saying, there wouldn't be such an alternative. However, if the person were actually there, face to face with me, and about to do me harm..yep..I'd use whatever force was necessary to stop them. However, I would LIKE to think that I would first simply try to cripple them, rather than outright kill them. I try to think that if the person were stopped, and put in jail later, or whatever, they might have a chance to change. But..if that weren't possible, to simply cripple them to prevent them from harming me, yeah..i'd do whatever was necessary. And not feel guilty.

[Valnorran]

Danustouch, your philosophy perfectly mirrors mine, as does that of the responder who said that by allowing ourselves to be harmed we are violating the Rede (sorry I can't recall your name right now!). You also seem to favor Celtic dieties, as I do. From reading things on other sites I sort of had the impression that we Wiccans are pacifists to the point of being suicidal. I certainly have no desire to hurt anyone but, in the circumstances I mentioned, my philosophy is "better him than me". I was just wondering if I was the odd man out (I usually am). It's refreshing to see that in this instance I'm not. I also want to stress that the circumstances I'm talking about are unusual and disasterous in the extreme. I'm not talking about killing someone because they took your parking spot. I'm talking about a final option in exceedingly hostile situations. One of the most effective ways I've found to avoid trouble is psychological warfare. Human criminals are predators and, like any other predator in the animal kingdom, they want an easy target. Lions always seek out the weakest of the herd. They avoid like the plague the biggest, baddest bull. There's a reason for this. If a predator looks at you and thinks that in the process of taking you he will, at the very least, shed some of his own blood, he'll probably leave you alone, thus neutralizing the deadly encounter before it even starts.

[widukind]

So if you feel you are being threatened you have the right to kill someone? I don't think so. After all, you could be paranoid, neurotic or whatever when you make the constatation you are in a life-threatening situation without realising it.
I don't like the 'shoot or be shot' mentality. You can club someone unconscious and have the police arrest them, but I don't believe in citizens' right to carry guns and use them to defend themselves in their homes. No one should carry guns. You don't need them and they don't have benefits. If you need them to feel safe, look for another method. In America it may be justifiable homicide when you kill a burglar, but IMO it's still murder. Here it's illegal to shoot a burglar, as it should be, IMO.

[Danustouch]

Well Widukind, have you ever BEEN in that situation? It's very easy to have ideals of what "Should" be. But until you are face to face with it, how do you know how you would react?

[Myst]

Originally posted by widukind
So if you feel you are being threatened you have the right to kill someone?.

No, that's not what I said.

Actually what I did say was if your life is threatened you are justified in returning the same force.

Obviously this is law, which means no you can't just be 'paranoid' and get by the judge with it. It also means (as shown on the link) they must be physically attacking you and there's no way for you to prevent death or grievous harm to yourself except by killing or causing grievous harm to them (note again that says cause them grievous harm or kill them, not just the latter, and I'm sure depends on the circumstances).

Also you cannot use excessive force, which means if a 6' 200lb guy with a knife attacks me I could probably get away with killing him. However, he attacks my fiance (270lb, bodybuilder, brown belt in karate), and my fiance would probably be in trouble if he killed the guy rather then just stopping him. Especially if he, say, broke the guy's leg and took his gun, he might get by, but if he *then* killed the guy now that he was already unable to harm anymore, he'd be in trouble for sure.

So if you consider that carefully it goes along with what you said. ie. Guy attacks you, you stop him so he can't hurt you

[Valnorran]

There's a saying among people who study this topic: the fight is going to go the way it wants to, not the way you want it to. It would be nice to be able to just wound an assailant and hold him for the authorities, but it simply isn't realistic to expect that, primarily because taking your attacker alive is much more difficult than most people realize. Club him into submission? Good luck. It is truly frightening just how much punishment a person can take and remain dangerous, especially when they're hopped up on drugs, booze, adrenaline, or just plain nastiness. Laws are made by people who rarely, if ever, have to face situations like this, from the comfort of their chambers and offices. They don't understand that no matter how big, strong, tough, or skilled you are you can still lose the fight, especially if your attacker is armed and you are not. They don't understand how easy it is to die. In some places, your body need only be penetrated to a depth of about three millimeters for something vital to be hit. Things like shooting the gun out of his hand or shooting him in the leg or shoulder are pure Hollywood B.S. Being able to shoot the weapon out of your attacker's hand requires more skill than most mortals have or ever will have. There are scores of accounts of felons taking a dozen or more hits to the torso from major caliber weapons and continuing to function as if nothing happened. If the shots did had any effect, it was to piss him off. So while I agree being able to subdue your attacker with a minimum of damage would be best, it just isn't a realistic expectation.

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by Valnorran
Things like shooting the gun out of his hand or shooting him in the leg or shoulder are pure Hollywood B.S. Being able to shoot the weapon out of your attacker's hand requires more skill than most mortals have or ever will have.

*nods* I agree Val...and so does the law, which is why they train police officers to aim for the central body mass.

*shrugs* I'd defend myself, my family, and a select few of my friends with my life without hesitation.
And I would defend just about everyone else with only a moment of thought as to what the situation was and what (if anything) I should do about it.

"Your right to throw a punch, ends at my nose." The way I see it, people who start things had darn well better be able to end them as well.
And on the gun issue...*shrugs*....I'm all for going back to the days of the Wild West. It wasn't perfect, but people were a heck of a lot less likely to pick a fight when they knew the other guy was probably packing and just might be a faster draw.

[Radocs]

I agree with Myst on this one.

[Mythrel]

I am not on my own computer so I don't have the quote handy, so I will try to remember it off the top of my head..it goes something like this:

If someone harms you and yours retaliate without hesitation, without reservation to make sure they can never hurt anyone or cause you or yours harm ever again...

it's a bit longer and a lot better worded, but that is the jist of it...

never go looking for a fight but if one comes to you, finish it

just my 2 cents worth

[MasterMoon]

Where do modern Pagans stand on the issue of using deadly force in self-defense? Understand that I am only speaking of situations that are of the absolute gravest extreme, such as an instance in which you are cornered by someone (or several people) who clearly and obviously wish to inflict severe injury/death on you or your loved ones in the immediate future. There is absolutely no chance of anyone coming to your aid. Even if you have a cell phone, do you honestly think predatory thugs will have the consideration to let you use it? So you are trapped and alone. You did not go looking for trouble. Trouble came looking for you. You tried to avoid it, but it wouldn't let you. No one is coming to help you. No one else cares. Your life and possibly the lives of those you love hang in the balance. You have the means of employing deadly force. Do you?

I made my mind up on this issue a long time ago, but I am very curious to know the opinions of other Pagans. What do ya'll think? I thank any and all in advance for their mature opinions.

Human beings are (imo) animals. Although we have a brain capable of reason. When threatened all that goes out the window, and the body takes over. Its called the fight or flight syndrom and it doesnt need any help from your brain to work.
To do whatever comes naturally would be the right choice. Either run away or fight. The big mistake here would be to "think". Thinking here would be the end of you. Although I would have to be in this situation to see what I would do, I wouldnt have any problem (morally) defending myself.

It is each persons right to defend themselves. I dont care what the law says about that. This is above the law. (I mean this in cases of deadly threat to the body)

[Run_With_Wolvez]

I agree with the post above mine.. definetely. *nods*

[Psyche Ague]

I think if I were being threatened, my first instinct would be to get the heck out of that situation. If escape were not an option, I would fight back - reasonable or not - for my life. Rede and law be darned! I'd rather live.

[Faolan]

I agree with the post above mine. How can you follow the rede if your dead?

But also, I've been taking Kenpo classes, and they teach you that run if you can,but if you can't, here's some things to defend yourself. Very good, and some moves can render a person unconscious with just one hit to a specific area. I remember one time I was having a little play fight with my friend, and i hit him right in the middle of his upper spine, and down he went. This guy's like a foot taller then me, and i'm not the fittest person in the world. After that I immediately ran, and it took him about 3 minutes to get up >.< I felt bad

[Paeten]

I will defend myself & my family completely and with whatever means it takes for our safety!

[Grey]

If your attacked in any physical/mental/emotional/spiritual way then you have the right and are almost obligated to respond. attack me personally but when my kin are involved there is no restraint. how much force and how is determined by the situation. (ie muggers are not hunted down with tanks etc)

but then again Ive always been a hot head when attacked:flamer:

you should see ricks signature

[Monk]

whats wrong with being a martyr? [imo and that of qualified spiritual teachers] the mind stream is whats important.

[imo]we have died an infinate number of times in the past and we shall again till we escape the cycle of rebirth.killing should only be acceptable if no negative emotions are generated in the deed,and its done with wisdom and compassion towards the individual.

As in the story [as i remember it] of when guatama buddha in a previous incarnation was on a ferry with a bunch of people and knew one of the people was going to try to capsize the ferry and kill everyone,out of compassion for the harm it would cause the murderer if he did the deed,he killed him,taking upon himself the bad karma and suffering of killing him,which was still a negative deed,but his compassion and self sacrifice for another overcame what negative conditions would have resulted in future rebirths.

[Starwind]

Lest in self defence it be.. so the rede says...

We are not expected to stand there and let someone cut us down...

charge of the dark goddess ( bits and peices...)

I am the glinting sword that protects you from harm
I make the weak strong. I make the arrogant humble. I raise
up the oppressed and empower the disenfranchised. I am Justice
tempered with Mercy.
I slit the throats of the cruel and drink the blood of the
heartless. Swallow your fear and come to me, and you will discover
true beauty, strength, and courage
I am the fury which rips the flesh from injustice
I am the Healer of all wounds, the Warrior who rights all wrongs in
their Time.
( the url for the whole thing in order..
http://www.paganportal.com/paganportal/COGDark.asp )

and more...no.. if one wants to take me down... the dark ones warrior within will have something to say to that..
If it's my time to rejoin the light then nothing I do will stop that.. but to let them take the life mother gave me. no.... even if i means taking theirs.. yes.. they made their choice when they threatened me and mine... and must pay the price of that choice...

yours
Starwind

[Valnorran]

Charge of the Dark Goddess! So very, very cool! Thank you, Starwind! I'd never heard of it. It's beautiful.