Is Magick more powerful than God?

[imapepper]

I'm not going to assume everyone here believes in destiny, fate, and that God has a divine plan for us all, seeing as that the term 'Christian' alone means there's going to be some serious discrepency between interpretations and definitions of the bible. However, if you do believe that ultimately God has the upper hand in life (divine plan and all that), but also practice magick, is magick more powerful than God? If not, why do you practice magick? Is it in hopes that God will shift things in your favor? If you don't believe God has a divine plan and that a person controls their life, their destiny, do you think magick is God or more powerful?

Two other threads elsewhere on MW got me thinking about this one, for myself as a Catholic Pagan, so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. I apologize if it's poorly worded.

[Aoibheal]

I think magic is a way that we channel the power of God. I would not say that it is more powerful because ultimately the power comes from God and so if he/she did not want you to use it in such a fashion then you probably wouldn't be able.

[RainInanna]

I think magick IS God, which is why I believe in Divine co-creation, and rooting magick in a connection with the Sacred.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

As I have more of a view that the God , is fractaled into the many Gods ,
and imbedded in every part of existence...

And the One Goddess of many faces oversees it all...

And she wants me to stand on my own two feet , and be the expression ,
of , and as a God...

As that God , I direct my destiny , utilizing the tools of my Universe...

As that may be , and is in my tradition , called Mgieck...So Mote It Be...

[LostSheep]

I think "God" is the, whatever, energy, that holds everything together and makes it all work, most of the time, and what magick does a way of working with that energy to try to shape it in some form ~ a bit like prayer really, that's how i see it i think. So i don't think there has to be a contradiction between them, it's a way of working with what we call God.

[Aidron]

I'm not going to assume everyone here believes in destiny, fate, and that God has a divine plan for us all, seeing as that the term 'Christian' alone means there's going to be some serious discrepency between interpretations and definitions of the bible. However, if you do believe that ultimately God has the upper hand in life (divine plan and all that), but also practice magick, is magick more powerful than God? If not, why do you practice magick? Is it in hopes that God will shift things in your favor? If you don't believe God has a divine plan and that a person controls their life, their destiny, do you think magick is God or more powerful?

I do believe the gods to be the mightiest force I yet know of within the cosmos, but I will say I imagine they have their limitations in some respects as all things to. Perhaps they don't, however, I have no way of truly knowing.

Is magic more powerful than the will of the gods, or is my magic? In the case of the former, I cannot claim something to be more powerful than that which can work it. I believe the gods are fully capable of working magic since it is the control of energies to manifest one's will. In the case of the latter I would consider that hubris in most respects.

As for why I practice magic it is to take control of my own fate. I do not believe fate is finite, I believe it is mutable. Fate is about opportunity, not destiny. It opens the door, but ultimately I must walk through it or walk away. If I wish for the gods to shift their will toward my favor, that is when I would pray, give offerings, and perform things of a similar scope, all the while keeping in mind that I cannot persuade them unless they wish to be persuaded (i.e. perhaps they are seeing if I will seek their aid, and are waiting for me to do so before they intervene).

[imapepper]

As for why I practice magic it is to take control of my own fate. I do not believe fate is finite, I believe it is mutable. Fate is about opportunity, not destiny. It opens the door, but ultimately I must walk through it or walk away. If I wish for the gods to shift their will toward my favor, that is when I would pray, give offerings, and perform things of a similar scope, all the while keeping in mind that I cannot persuade them unless they wish to be persuaded (i.e. perhaps they are seeing if I will seek their aid, and are waiting for me to do so before they intervene).

Perfect, I was trying to find a good way of articulating my own beliefs on this and you did it wonderfully, thank you so much Aidron. This is how I feel, for the record.

Everyones responses so far have been interesting, especially magick as prayer LostSheep, that makes a whole lot of sense to me.

[Aina]

I see prayer as a form of magick. I think my life is already planned out, but not to every little detail (i.e me randomly finding 20 bucks is more luck then destiny). I think that if you pray/perform magick, it shows that you are asking for aid. You want help and guidance from God (or your deities). I've been praying alot to God, because of my grandfather. He has brain cancer, and he is dying. Even though I know he will die, I always ask just to help my grandfather to get through the hardships, and to help my family cope.
I wonder if I'm answering the question at all....my mind is all array right now.

Eh...well that's my answer nonetheless, ehhe.


-Aina MuirLinee-

[Lahmi]

Good evening Imapepper. :)

Answer to your question, would be no, the energies that are used in magic
are not more powerful than God.
I would submit that magic is not channeling God's power though, since that
is what the giftings of the Holy Spirit are for.

just my 2 cents. :)

[Xentor]

Being a former catholic I'd say that it's God allowing the use of magic through His divine blessing. Maybe God has more important things to do (I don't know, like taking care of the universe) than worry about petty stuff involving me? In those cases, me taking care of myself comes in pretty handy. God helps those who help themselves.

[imapepper]

Being a former catholic I'd say that it's God allowing the use of magic through His divine blessing. Maybe God has more important things to do (I don't know, like taking care of the universe) than worry about petty stuff involving me? In those cases, me taking care of myself comes in pretty handy. God helps those who help themselves.

Very true Xentor, I think a lot of people also want that help because they need it but then kind of expect it to come out of thin air. The universe is a big place, we gotta give God a hand sometimes.

:hahugh:

[LadyCelt]

I understand the elements the concept of a circle, etc to come from God and to be aspects of God. I consider magic to be a different form of prayer; if it is for something intense then it is a more intense form of prayer.

[aluokaloo]

even though I don't follow this path, I would have to say that magick is the person and the divine working together in tandem, kinda like on the job training, in a way. And anyways what about that old saying that God (s) helps those who help themselves. Wouldn't this be an example of that? In my personal experience, no deity is willing to swing it all for you, you have to truly want it, strive for it, and be ready to have this, do that, make things better. Magick is just one of the tools in the blueprint of the grand design

[imapepper]

Curious! If any of you who've answered are still lurking the thread, what would you say to someone who, in an attempt to help him or herself out, uses magick but it doesn't work?

Just want your thoughts on that one!

:hahugh:

[aluokaloo]

magick is like any other endeavor in life if you constantly tell yourself, I can't do it. It won't work, I'm not good enough etc. then you've defeated yourself before you've truly begun, this is coming from someone who is the Queen of I don't think I can! Sometimes, I've discovered that magick may seem like it's failed, or didn't do anything but it just might take a while for it to work. Or perhaps it wasn't meant to be.

[imapepper]

Sometimes, I've discovered that magick may seem like it's failed, or didn't do anything but it just might take a while for it to work. Or perhaps it wasn't meant to be.

True, sometimes the outcome isn't this pre-conceived idea we have floating in our head of what it should be like and yes, some things just aren't meant to be.

[LacyRoze]

Curious! If any of you who've answered are still lurking the thread, what would you say to someone who, in an attempt to help him or herself out, uses magick but it doesn't work?

Just want your thoughts on that one!

:hahugh:

I agree that sometimes it's just not meant to be but i also believe that seeing a spell come to fruition isn't always about when we want it to happen. I think sometimes we're too impatient and too wrapped up in immediate results. I believe the spell will work when it needs to work, when the time is right. Now I don't expect anyone to agree with me, this is just what I believe.

[Pneumatikos]

Which is more powerful...the creator or the created?

[Xentor]

The creator, of course. Unfortunately, which is which?

[coeur]

I believe existence is neither fated nor un-fated; rather, I believe that life is a combination of both. If fate did not exist at all, then there would be no way to predict the future--which would suggest there would be no laws governing the material world as utilized in physics and chemistry. There would be no way to know beforehand if a bridge would collapse or hold; there would be no way to know how fast a falling object would accelerate. There would be no constant--which is what I believe fate to be. On the other hand, it would be wholly inaccurate to suggest that everything is fated. For example, a human must die but what happens to a human between being born and dying can fluctuate depending on what the human chooses to do.

Judeo-Christian theology has specified that God has given man free will; but just because man has free will does not mean man will be exempt from certain effects of fate. Again, a man can choose whether he wants a green toothbrush or red toothbrush but he cannot choose whether or not he will die--he cannot choose where he is born or who he is born to. However, the fact that he can choose a green or red toothbrush--with toothpaste and dinner to go with it--suggests that man does have the capacity to exercise free will under a certain set of circumstances.

Magic is considered an exercise of Will; and most people interpret Will as Free Will. However, I do not believe that magic can change things like which country you were born in or who you were born to. Those things, perhaps, are left to God and perhaps God is only interested in things like that. Perhaps God is not interested in thwarting things like what you choose to believe in or whether or not you choose to cast magic or even whether or not your magic succeeds. Perhaps those things are what God has left to free will.

[Pneumatikos]

Without sounding like Star Wars, the force binds us all together. We shouldn't mistake the creation with the creator. Magick might be considered as manipulation of God , But the prayer of a righteous person is what moves God to change. The creative power of God was manifested in God's words, not actions. How many times did the phrase "and God said." refer to something being created?

Faith is not only belief in a higher power, I Corinthians 13 says it a living thing. And now lives Faith, Hope and Love. These are the things of creation.

[Solya]

I see magic more as a direct appeal to God, or as a means of using the power God has made available to us all. Magic feels like a form of prayer to me which often produces more direct results. On the other hand, there are some things which turn out far more differently from planned... and those moments are moments that give me the impression that God's telling me to "back off and let ME do the work for once".

I think that magic, as all things in this world, is subject to the influence of God. If God has designed another plan for us, we can't do anything about it. We can attempt to thwart the plan, of course, but I find that that often produces another situation much like the one you've successfully avoided. It always comes back until you learn from it, and no magic in the world is going to change that divine plan.

Working together with any concept of God, no matter your personal beliefs in this matter, means that you have to truly want something to happen. Often, you must be willing to sacrifice other things for it. Even the actions done out of our free will always have their consequences. You have to be willing to really change something if you're planning on letting magic go hand in hand with your concept of God. Take your life into your own hands, but don't forget to trust in the divine plan that everything is always going to turn out okay for you. Sometimes, it's good to just 'let go and let God'.

[David19]

Without sounding like Star Wars, the force binds us all together. We shouldn't mistake the creation with the creator. Magick might be considered as manipulation of God , But the prayer of a righteous person is what moves God to change. The creative power of God was manifested in God's words, not actions. How many times did the phrase "and God said." refer to something being created?

Faith is not only belief in a higher power, I Corinthians 13 says it a living thing. And now lives Faith, Hope and Love. These are the things of creation.

That's quite a cool explanation :).

[Rosetta Morrigan]

I think magick was made by God.Ess and that she created the universe through the use of it. Manifesting her will. Therefore, I don't think magick is more powerful than God but I do think it is a part of God (like everything) and that God is magick.:smile:

[Cassandra2]

I'm not going to assume everyone here believes in destiny, fate, and that God has a divine plan for us all, seeing as that the term 'Christian' alone means there's going to be some serious discrepency between interpretations and definitions of the bible. However, if you do believe that ultimately God has the upper hand in life (divine plan and all that), but also practice magick, is magick more powerful than God? If not, why do you practice magick? Is it in hopes that God will shift things in your favor? If you don't believe God has a divine plan and that a person controls their life, their destiny, do you think magick is God or more powerful?


Two other threads elsewhere on MW got me thinking about this one, for myself as a Catholic Pagan, so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this. I apologize if it's poorly worded.

I like to think of our individual wills as vector forces. God, in my opinion does not much interfere with our will (in things like whom I will marry, how I will raise my kids and what I will eat for breakfast). God gave us dominion over the earth. I do believe it is our world and we make reality here.
Those who have said in their hearts "God lead me" or something like that have submitted their will to God's will. That is a volitional submission. I, for one do not believe that everything that happens is "God's will" A person can have a wicked heart and will to do evil and I won't blame anyone but that person for that.
Can God supercede our will? Sure. When God cursed Babylon it was done. When God destroyed the "virtue" or "firstborn" of Egypt. It was done. It would not be undone. The fallout from God's divine purpose is always there. Now, you asked for an opinion so I gave one. I will probably get nasty emails now that I am doing something the censor here don't like.

[Nesta]

I think of magic as energy. Energy is everywhere and in everything. Everything comes from energy and while energy can change form or substance it can't be entirely extinguished. I work energy (magic) because its the means by which my senses make sense of things. I'm doing it because its how I understand the world, not for personal gratification. I see deity as a guide/tutor in life.

I believe that my 'destiny' is directed by the choices that I make constantly. I see my path as a series of challenges given to me to learn lessons. How it works out is all down to me.