In support of asatru

[Dustypuppy]

Where I live there has been alot of debate concerning the issue of white supremacy in the Northern traditions, I would just like to air this point of view, the Goddess Nott, guardian of night, is perceived as dark skinned and haired, to me it would be odd for a path that some accuse of being rascist to honour a dark skinned divinity?x

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I actually think your dealing with two different concepts here.

With regard to the goddess of night, her coloration is somewhat defined by her position and responsibility. I believe some accounts of the goddess of death (Bel? Hel? sorry can't think of her name) also shows a woman of dark features and such. I believe that their colorations is used to indicate the realm of responsibility vice racial. This doesn't even touch upon whether thier Vanier, Aesir or Joudon descendents.

You must also look at what facet of the Northern tradition are you looking at. Is it Asatru? Is it Odinism? Is it Tutonic? Is it based upon the Norse gods? Is it based upon the Danish Gods? Is it based upon the Germanic gods?

Granted thier is a great deal of cross over ie Odin is also identifed with Wodan of Germanic background.

A lot of the Northern tradition, especially Odinist and some Asatru, are very strongly built around the concept of racial lineage. To follow the path you must be a descendent of the Nordic People.

In the states a lot of Prision systems have found the white population is aligned with Odinism but the general populace just knows it as Asatru.:viking:

I also think the concept of white supremecy in them is particually based upon the fact the kin and kindred theory of the Northern Traditions make for a much tighter group. Thier is still a lot of inner connection from one unit to another where most of the neo-pagan religion seem to be self-identified at best to small groups or covens that have little to no outward interaction as a collective whole.

Yet the Blot (I think that's the correct term) is one large family regardless of location. So thier is more of a racial identity than any other group except maybe for the africo-american traditions of the carribean.

I was once told I could get into a Nordic Tradition as I had Germanic and Highland Scot ancestors. Now I really don't know if it would make a difference or not but it did appear blood and lineage was a major concern. So I think that once again highly impacts upon the persception of those outside the traditions have of those that are within them.

[SSanf]

No way is Asatru racist around here. Asatru rocks!

[~Elise~]

There are neo-nazi versions of Odinists, but that does not represent the outlook of the majority of Asatru.
You'll find the Folkish Asatru are the most racial conscious--but even the majority of the Folkish aren't racists.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[Russ]

Part of the issue is the ancestor aspects. Plus the lack of members from non-Whites which when you think about it makes since.

I don't think many Asians, Native Americans, Hispanics or Africans would be all to interested in a faith that has worship of old dead white people as a major tenant...

Where as white supremacists will love it. Interestingly I read an article on how they few the faith of Asatru. While I honestly despise the "there not really members of this faith" defense here I think it is valid.

Many of them don't see it as a real and true religion. Just "Being proud of being white" is there only reasons for belonging.

Me: So you believe in the nine noble virtues?
Racist: What's that!?

Me: Do you work with Freyr or Aegar alot?
Racist: Who are they!?

Me: Do you practice magick?
Racist: NO THE BIBLE FORBIDS IT!

Me: So your Christian, not Asatru?
Racist: Of course I'm a Christian. Asatru just means I'm glad I'm white!

Me: Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight :hahugh:

[Torulf]

Exactly Russ, it is something that the racist och nazi-"culture" has adopted. Which is saddening as it is the old religion of Scandinavia and the German people. However this talk about lineage or race has no real connection to Asatru as far as I am informed. Anyone could be a believer of asatru, they do not have to be white and they do not have to descend from the vikings. That sounds more like nazi-propaganda if you ask me. Let me also remind you that many religions has cults that spring up around specific gods and such in their belief system. In other words, Odinism would be Asatru although Oden, Odin, Wothan or Wodin or whatever is given a special place. Warriors or priests would perhaps feel a stronger connection to him as he is a warrior god as well as a god of magic. My point is that real Odinism would be Asatru with focus on Oden. The Odinism as earlier described is as Russ said nothing but white people running around playing wannabe-vikings. (Ok he didn't exactly say that but I believe that is the essence of what he said and I fully agree with that) It is saddening really.
I also want to say that the danish, norse, swedish, german (teutonic), gods etc. is practically the same although the pronounce the names differently. So Asatru is asatru indifferent of country above as it is the same basic beliefs and gods even though they are spelled differently.

Cheers

[~Elise~]

All Gods are NOT the same Gods ( or even one God) at least in MY worldview and I'm pretty sure in the Heathen worldview.
While I don't disagree-wannabes running around and playing viking are a bit funny... I don't think one are all the same.

And I agree with Rick--the Gods call their own (they know the blood). This is speaking as one who was called and thought it was rubbish until she did her genealogy.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[Torulf]

I think you may have misunderstood me. What I meant was that the gods in northern europe, specifically, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany during pre-christian times was practically the same even though they had different names depending on which area they were worshipped. For example in England at least in mordern language Odin is called odin. In Norway and Sweden he is called Oden whilest in Germany Wotan or Woden. It is the same with the other gods, they have the same purposes and functions although their names may vary a bit. It it the same gods though, and it is the same faith. Besides, you cant say heathen worldview as that include pretty much all religions or beliefs outside och christendom. It is not christendom against the world, the politics and relations between belief systems are far more complex than that. To a christian pretty much every religion outside of their own are heretics and heathens, but heathens in africa and heathens in northern europe had little in common when talking about world views.
Then you tell me, I am a direct descendant to vikings without any interruption in the bloodlines. I have only norse blood and I say that it is most likely not true. I say that everyone may chose to embrace asatru if they so wish. Besides the gods are not of our blood, they are asar, that is a whole other race, some are even vaner (vanes in english perhaps?). The gods may be mortal (which they are according to mythology) but they are not human at all. Therefor you cant say that they call their own. Besides, according to creation myth the gods (Oden among them) created humans (Ask & Embla) and correct me if I am wrong but they do not mention any skin color at all. I dont buy it anyways, I cant see no reason why not anyone should be able to chose Asatro.

[~Elise~]

An Anglo-Saxon Heathen, or Theodish, has slightly different beliefs than a Folk-ish Heathen which is different than a Universalist Heathen. Asatru means True to the Gods

I didn't say I have only Norse blood--but They do call their own. And yes, I have a line back to the Vikings througn my maternal grandfather, if you want to get technical about it. In fact, into all the ruling houses of Denmark, Sweden, Juteland, Norway, etc...
The Heathen belief is that the Gods are our ancestors, so yes, we are of their blood. That said--the Vikings did 'get around' a lot... they are intermixed with LOTS of different cultures. So, in calling their 'own'... they could be calling lots of different folk.

A Heathen needs to step in here and take over this discussion...

[Juniper138]

I'm no Heathen, but my man is a Asatru godhi of a Kinship. Heathens tend to be conservative (and republican lol), especially when compared to pagans. They do place importance on ancestry as well. But one has to remember that we cannot lump all Heathens into one definition.
It would be like saying all Wiccans are feminists. When we know that to be untrue, some are feminists, some have feminist leanings and some are not at all.
There are many different kinds of Heathen, just as there are many different kinds of Wiccan.
Yes, a minority of Heathens are very racist, even white supremacists, some are mildly racist (as in not actively wearing white robes and burning crosses on lawns but still racist), and the rest are not.
My man's Kinship had a black member for a time. Which did annoy some other local groups. They had this fellow look in to paths from his own ancestry before they let him join up, but that is what he felt called too.
His Kinship no is now all white (the black member died in an accident), and they have only one member who I would even begin to describe as racists, he is also not terribly respectful of women either. He is young and was raised that way by Christian parents. He finds a lot of disapproval amongst the Kindred for his remarks and attitude and is actively curtailing the behavior. Its hard to untrain yourself from such things. Now if he had joined a less liberal Kinship, this may be different. Praise to Odin for guiding him to my man's Kinship instead.

[Torulf]

First of all, asatru is in English, in for example Swedish it spells Asatro. Asa= the gods, Asarna, Tro = Faith, litterally. I do not buy it, I think you are wrong in your claim that they would only call People as you call with
Norse or germanic blood.

And all that talk about heathens again, an anglo-saxon heathen is a combination of a lot of peoples just so you know. Anglo insinuates brittish people and let me tell you something about them. First the brittish were more or less friendly with the celts. This is when the celts wandered across the continent(all the way from asia) around 400 B.C. Then the Romans ivaded Britain around the time when jesus died (it took them som time, say -50/+50 years) Now we have picts (northern people of britain), the celts and the original brittish people which mixes with romans. Later on comes the saxons (germans) and invade, after that comes the danes who create the danelag. Oki keep counting we are up to 6 peoples. Lastly we have the Normans who Come with William the conqueror from normandie (In France, which by the way had norse blood intermixed). Now thats a mess of peoples right? What bloody blood are ye speaking of :P So please tell me what you mean by anglo-saxon heathen? (Ye can count the normans out since they came in the 11th century when europe were mainly christians) Your anglo-saxon heathen consists of so many different cultures (6+) that it cant be counted as one people.

Well of course heathens can have different gods, as they are every culture or belief that practise something else than christianity. However you cannot by any means claim that there are such a thing as a folk-heathen or a universal heathen. Simply because there are no such thing, they do not exist.

And besides from that, about your supposed connection to the royal houses of Sweden, denmark, Juteland (haha your kidding me right), Norway?
1st. Swedens royal family comes from France, Jean Baptiste Bernadotte replaced Gustav IV Adolf in early 19th century. Gustav IV was the last of the Vasa Lineage which had reigned since the 16th century. Therefor, congrats, yer French.
2nd. Norway was ruled by Sweden for several hundred years. Their lineage was broken.

By now you should know that the royal family has changed several times during the history of those countries. And thats not all, I highly doubt that you can prove your connection to those "royal houses" I think it is wishful thinking. It is incredibly hard to trace anscestry longer back than the 16th century, in sweden at least. (The other countrys as well I would say) as there are no or little information about the people. It was first in the 16th century that taxrolls came into order in sweden. So there are practically impossible to trace your ancestry back. And also there are seldom any common last names among the people, if your fathers name was Tor your last name was Torson (Tors son, easy as that). That in combination with bad records make tracing very very hard.
I'm sorry to say I doubt you have a real connection to these "houses". Do know that I do not want to offend you in any way.

I believe the gods would accept any people that did wish to worship them, regardles of their lineage. Especially since they are a different species ;)

[Seren_]

And all that talk about heathens again, an anglo-saxon heathen is a combination of a lot of peoples just so you know. Anglo insinuates brittish people and let me tell you something about them. First the brittish were more or less friendly with the celts. This is when the celts wandered across the continent(all the way from asia) around 400 B.C. Then the Romans ivaded Britain around the time when jesus died (it took them som time, say -50/+50 years) Now we have picts (northern people of britain), the celts and the original brittish people which mixes with romans. Later on comes the saxons (germans) and invade, after that comes the danes who create the danelag. Oki keep counting we are up to 6 peoples.

The Celtic culture is more likely to have spread through trade and ideas than a whole bunch of people turning up en masse, but some Celts did come to Britain, as we can see from the tribe names that have been recorded. When the Romans invaded in 43AD, they invaded a Celtic country, with Celtic speaking people etc, and there wasn't any discernable split between the Celts and the 'original' British people. They may not have all been the same across the whole of Britain, but they were still Celtic.

The Picts, also Celts, are first named in 297AD, and are most likely to have been the result of several different tribes in Scotland coming together for political reasons, though they may have had some cultural influences from Scandinavian peoples. The Picts were primarily concerned with the Dal Riatans, Gaelic settlers from Ireland who settled on the western seaboard of Scotland from around 400AD (possibly earlier).

The Anglo Saxons never settled in the Pictish areas, forming their own kingdoms in the same way as they did in England, so aren't really relevant to the discussion at hand. This is not to say they never interacted in other ways, but culturally, the Picts had little impact on Anglo-Saxon belief - with Christianity, quite the opposite it seems.

By the time the Anglo Saxons arrived, Rome had officially withdrawn from Britain and the evidence suggests that the people were reverting back to their Celtic ways and by and large were eschewing Roman styles of life, so really all you're looking at, at best is a mix of Roman and Brythonic culture, which the Anglo-Saxons then invaded, settled on their turf, married their women and got on with the rest they didn't want to kill...Even by the time of the Vikings, the Anglo-Saxons were pretty much all Christian, so any other cultural influences to a heathen Anglo-Saxon path are hardly relevant, I think.

[Torulf]

Yes I can see that I have missed a very important point as I have lumped brittish and germans together in what I did call Anglo-saxons. This is incorrect. Thank you Seren for pointing that out, you are right. =)

[David19]

An Anglo-Saxon Heathen, or Theodish, has slightly different beliefs than a Folk-ish Heathen which is different than a Universalist Heathen. Asatru means True to the Gods

I didn't say I have only Norse blood--but They do call their own. And yes, I have a line back to the Vikings througn my maternal grandfather, if you want to get technical about it. In fact, into all the ruling houses of Denmark, Sweden, Juteland, Norway, etc...
The Heathen belief is that the Gods are our ancestors, so yes, we are of their blood. That said--the Vikings did 'get around' a lot... they are intermixed with LOTS of different cultures. So, in calling their 'own'... they could be calling lots of different folk.

A Heathen needs to step in here and take over this discussion...

From what I've learned about Heathenism (not sure if that's even a word...) from reading the posts by some very knowledgable Heathens on this board and a few other sites, I think Elise is right in that the Norse gods do probably call their own, as in calling to those who have their blood in them, but this doesn't mean, they're going to just call tall, blond, blue eyed people, as a tiny minority might believe (and strangely, the ones who believe that rarely have blond hair themselves and aren't that tall), but they might call some one who's black, Middle Eastern, or whoever, as long as they have their blood somewhere along the line (I think the Norse got to North Africa, but I'm not sure if they travelled to the Middle East?). On another board I'm on, one Heathen there is from Sweden and black, and on another yahoo group, there are Heathens who, apparantly from their own admissions, don't look Germanic at all, and yet were still called by the Norse gods (they're from a Jewish background), so I don't think anyone can call the Norse gods "racist" or the majority of Heathenism, I think the Norse gods might care more about family, IMO (they don't care what your skin colour or cultural background is, as long as you're family and have their blood, they've got your back).

Not sure if that made any sense, or if any Heathens would agree (I'm not a Heathen, although I do really respect the religion(s) and I really like some Heathen authors like Diana Paxson, and want to read more Edred Thorson/Stephen Flowers, etc).

[~Elise~]

First of all, asatru is in English, in for example Swedish it spells Asatro. Asa= the gods, Asarna, Tro = Faith, litterally. I do not buy it, I think you are wrong in your claim that they would only call People as you call with
Norse or germanic blood.

And all that talk about heathens again, an anglo-saxon heathen is a combination of a lot of peoples just so you know. Anglo insinuates brittish people and let me tell you something about them. First the brittish were more or less friendly with the celts. This is when the celts wandered across the continent(all the way from asia) around 400 B.C. Then the Romans ivaded Britain around the time when jesus died (it took them som time, say -50/+50 years) Now we have picts (northern people of britain), the celts and the original brittish people which mixes with romans. Later on comes the saxons (germans) and invade, after that comes the danes who create the danelag. Oki keep counting we are up to 6 peoples. Lastly we have the Normans who Come with William the conqueror from normandie (In France, which by the way had norse blood intermixed). Now thats a mess of peoples right? What bloody blood are ye speaking of :P So please tell me what you mean by anglo-saxon heathen? (Ye can count the normans out since they came in the 11th century when europe were mainly christians) Your anglo-saxon heathen consists of so many different cultures (6+) that it cant be counted as one people.

Well of course heathens can have different gods, as they are every culture or belief that practise something else than christianity. However you cannot by any means claim that there are such a thing as a folk-heathen or a universal heathen. Simply because there are no such thing, they do not exist.

And besides from that, about your supposed connection to the royal houses of Sweden, denmark, Juteland (haha your kidding me right), Norway?
1st. Swedens royal family comes from France, Jean Baptiste Bernadotte replaced Gustav IV Adolf in early 19th century. Gustav IV was the last of the Vasa Lineage which had reigned since the 16th century. Therefor, congrats, yer French.
2nd. Norway was ruled by Sweden for several hundred years. Their lineage was broken.

By now you should know that the royal family has changed several times during the history of those countries. And thats not all, I highly doubt that you can prove your connection to those "royal houses" I think it is wishful thinking. It is incredibly hard to trace anscestry longer back than the 16th century, in sweden at least. (The other countrys as well I would say) as there are no or little information about the people. It was first in the 16th century that taxrolls came into order in sweden. So there are practically impossible to trace your ancestry back. And also there are seldom any common last names among the people, if your fathers name was Tor your last name was Torson (Tors son, easy as that). That in combination with bad records make tracing very very hard.
I'm sorry to say I doubt you have a real connection to these "houses". Do know that I do not want to offend you in any way.

I believe the gods would accept any people that did wish to worship them, regardles of their lineage. Especially since they are a different species ;)

Never said I wasn't French, dude. I can trace my lineage back to William the Conquerer and back from there into the 2nd century. For your information... royal records are kept, much better than the common person and that is very sad. (but William's lineage IS very well documented... go look it up.)
I'm also Irish and I'm also Scottish. Am probably part of Clan Wallace, (have gotten that far on that particular side) as well as a member of Clan Ewing. So back off... don't know why you're being so belligerent, but you need to lighten up.

I was NOT bragging about the lineage-just making a point that even if you don't think you're of the 'blood' you probably are. I'm also 9th cousin to Elizabeth II, but that doesn't make me in line for the crown (my 11th great grandfather is her 9th). And Anna of Russia is also part of my lineage. And no--I'm not kidding about Juteland... go look it up.

:rant: You're not Heathen and you are only speaking of things that you've read in a book or online. You don't study the faith or, more importantly, you obviously do not live it. You think all are entitled to it...not all are. BUT SKIN COLOR HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. /:rant:

the following is QFT:

Heathens tend to be conservative (and republican lol), especially when compared to pagans. They do place importance on ancestry as well. But one has to remember that we cannot lump all Heathens into one definition.

You totally and completely miss the point of Theodish or AngloSaxon heathens. Please go look up the different types of Heathens that exist before you start trying to school me on history.

quoting your OWN words:

However this talk about lineage or race has no real connection to Asatru as far as I am informed.

You are not well informed... go into the Recon forum and do a bit of homework before you post again, PLEASE.

And again--I'm stating I'm not Heathen...and someone more knowledgable needs to step in here.

Elise

[Rick]

First of all, asatru is in English...
Nope... the word was coined by a Danish researcher in the 1800s, based on the language of Iceland. Look it up (from a genuinely scholarly source, not a wiki).


Well of course heathens can have different gods, as they are every culture or belief that practise something else than christianity. However you cannot by any means claim that there are such a thing as a folk-heathen or a universal heathen. Simply because there are no such thing, they do not exist.
You seem to be very poorly informed, or living in a vacuum, or something.

Heathen is the term that most modern-day English-speaking followers of the Teutonic gods use to refer to themselves, so as not to be confused with other Pagans. Trust me on this; I've been a practicing Heathen for nearly 50 years, I know of which I speak. Folkish Heathens lean to the right, & basically believe that only certain people can follow their faith. Universalist Heathens lean to the left, & basically believe that all (or most, anyway) people can follow their faith. The truth, as always, lies in between. Read your Eddas. The Eddas tell us that we are the descendants of Heimdal (see The Lay of Rig in The Poetic Edda), therefore descended from the gods. Read your sagas. The original royal house of Sweden (The Ynglings) claimed descent from Ing (Fro Ing, Ingvi Frey, Freyr). The royal line of Norway claimed descent from Thor, & the royal line of Denmark claimed descent from Odin (see Hrolf Kraki's Saga). The various sagas also give us detailed lineages of the noble families. I myself am descended from the earls of Orkney, among others (Thorfinn Skullsplitter was my so-many-times-great grandfather). BTW, we have a geneology forum (or is it sub-forum? I forget) here, for those that are interested. The various gods worshipped by the various tribes scattered across Northern Europe were similar in name & nature, but not the same. The sun god Frey worshipped by the Anglo-Saxons is not the pastoral god Frey worshipped by the Swedes.


...Juteland (haha your kidding me right)
Ya know... Beowulf was a Jute...

Juteland ruled (or received tribute from) most of Scandinavia at one time. What do you find so amusing about it?


I believe the gods would accept any people that did wish to worship them, regardles of their lineage. Especially since they are a different species ;)
Believe what you will. Doesn't change the fact that the Northern gods call their own. But as ~Elise~ pointed out, the children of the Northern gods got around, & they didn't take their women with them on long raiding-or-trading journeys (and yes, David19, the Northmen traveled to the Middle East. The 'house carls' (um... personal body guards) of Constantinople were Northmen. The Rus, for whom Russia is named, were a tribe of Northmen that settled in that part of the world). Through the magic of the internet, I am acquainted with Heathens on every continent (except, of course, Antarctica... Heathen penguins... hehehe... now that's funny... ).

Point is, if you are called, you are of the blood.

[Hærfest Leah]

...and there went Rick.....

Ok and for my quick Heathen 2cents because I have to go cook dinner. I am one of the non racist folkish types and I have strong Germanic lineage (which I'm very proud of) which is the factor for my being a Heathen. But that is not everyone just me. See my links in my signature on my gen obcession.

Nice to meet you Torulf, feel free to post in the Recon forum. I am the one who runs the Genealogy thread Rick (my very distant cousin) referred to.

But I'm folkish big deal, it doesn't make me racist. Especially since I'm a member of the non -racist Troth and I'm a small bit Melungeon (http://melungeon.org/?BISKIT=2227883028&CONTEXT=cat&cat=10005).

Also, someone I'd have to go back and find said that "one does not have to be of Germanic descent to be a Heathen or Asatruar or whatever the title, but eventually the enchantment will wear off , they'll feel out of place and they will go looking for their own ancestors gods."

[Torulf]

First of all and most importantly, I do apologise if someone have felt that I am calling them a racist because of their connection to Asatru. I can assure you I do not, I do of course respect you for being proud of your heritage. If you feel any other way I am sorry, it was never my intention.

Secondly, the term heathen is according to the Oxford dictionary,
" • noun derogatory a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) as regarded by those who do."
This is how I use the word, your way of using heathen I would say is more inofficial. So I am not poorly informed at all, as a matter of fact I do use the word in according to it's meaning. Then if you do use it in another form then it is up to you, however you cannot expect an outsider to know how your group uses the word if it is not in line with the official interpretation.

Well I can truthfully admit that I have not studied the prose Edda or the poetic one either. However, even if a god does not have the exact same qualities or even differ quite a bit between places (as in your example with Frey) it is not necessarily different Gods. Depending on the circumstances the Gods abilitys may change. a completely farming society may embrace a different side of a god than a primarily fishing society would. You see my point? Even personalities may change because of the peoples needs but it is probably the same basic god.

Ok, laughing about Juteland may not have been very mature. I just found it hard to believe that someone could actually trace themselves to Harald Bluetooth or such.

When bringing in Beowulf and Rus into the picture you have to know that their importance or even existance in being debated among historians. Even if some people say that Rus is the founder of Russia not all do agree there are arguments speaking for as well as against. The Russians have never accepted that this would be the case whielst scandinavias have most often claimed it to be so. Also Beowulf is very hard for many historians to accept as there are few or no reliable sources about this man. There is only the tale of Beowulf (I am sorry I do not know the english title).

To Elise, aye you are correct, the records are way better when treating royal lines. And I do believe that records about William I may be considerate. As you said, it sounded a bit like bragging :P
However, I might not study the "faith" in the way you would but I do have a special relationship with Freja as I do owe her for some favors. In other words I do have contacts with the gods and if I turn to any gods it is always the norse. I do however feel that you should present some form of proof to support your argumentation when you say that I am wrong. I must say that I consider it at best moderate.
As for you feeling that I am agressive in my argumentation. I'm sorry I just think it is fun to argument, cant really help it as I get carried away :P
However, know that even if it do not seem that way I most often have a friendly smile on my face.

[~Elise~]

First of all and most importantly, I do apologise if someone have felt that I am calling them a racist because of their connection to Asatru. I can assure you I do not, I do of course respect you for being proud of your heritage. If you feel any other way I am sorry, it was never my intention.

Secondly, the term heathen is according to the Oxford dictionary,
" • noun derogatory a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) as regarded by those who do."
This is how I use the word, your way of using heathen I would say is more inofficial. So I am not poorly informed at all, as a matter of fact I do use the word in according to it's meaning. Then if you do use it in another form then it is up to you, however you cannot expect an outsider to know how your group uses the word if it is not in line with the official interpretation.

It isn't just some group that uses the term Heathen as Rick described--unless you count the majority of the Asatru community, of which you claim such extensive knowledge and authority.


Well I can truthfully admit that I have not studied the prose Edda or the poetic one either. However, even if a god does not have the exact same qualities or even differ quite a bit between places (as in your example with Frey) it is not necessarily different Gods. Depending on the circumstances the Gods abilitys may change. a completely farming society may embrace a different side of a god than a primarily fishing society would. You see my point? Even personalities may change because of the peoples needs but it is probably the same basic god.
No, it isn't (in my worldview--which is exactly what I stated at the beginning) I didn't say it had to be your worldview...but yours is NOT the be all, end all as you were putting forth. There are other points of view...but you don't have to accept them and no one is asking you too. But, also you do not have the right to come in and say that ancestory means nothing and everyone else (including the people of this faith) are wrong. Which is what you did.


Ok, laughing about Juteland may not have been very mature. I just found it hard to believe that someone could actually trace themselves to Harald Bluetooth or such.

Why would that be so hard to believe? You dismissed my comment with derision and that is what I found offensive. You know nothing about me whatsoever, yet you chose to belittle without asking for clarification.


When bringing in Beowulf and Rus into the picture you have to know that their importance or even existance in being debated among historians. Even if some people say that Rus is the founder of Russia not all do agree there are arguments speaking for as well as against. The Russians have never accepted that this would be the case whielst scandinavias have most often claimed it to be so. Also Beowulf is very hard for many historians to accept as there are few or no reliable sources about this man. There is only the tale of Beowulf (I am sorry I do not know the english title).

To Elise, aye you are correct, the records are way better when treating royal lines. And I do believe that records about William I may be considerate. As you said, it sounded a bit like bragging :P
However, I might not study the "faith" in the way you would but I do have a special relationship with Freja as I do owe her for some favors. In other words I do have contacts with the gods and if I turn to any gods it is always the norse. I do however feel that you should present some form of proof to support your argumentation when you say that I am wrong. I must say that I consider it at best moderate.
As for you feeling that I am agressive in my argumentation. I'm sorry I just think it is fun to argument, cant really help it as I get carried away :P
However, know that even if it do not seem that way I most often have a friendly smile on my face.

Having a relationship with Freyja is not the same thing as being Heathen (I know because I also have a relationship with her, but I don't consider myself Heathen)...When you say that there is no such thing as a Folk-ish Heathen/Asatru, Theodish Heathen/Asatru or a Universalist Heathen/Asatru shows that you do not know what you are speaking of. Go google the terms... you'll find tons of 'proof'. I'm not going to do your work for you.

Before you choose to speak for a whole faith in the future and just blithely dismiss a major tenet of their belief--make sure that you point out VERY clearly that it is your opinion only and has nothing to do with whatever the actual facts may be.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[Juniper138]

the following is QFT:


You totally and completely miss the point of Theodish or AngloSaxon heathens. Please go look up the different types of Heathens that exist before you start trying to school me on history.


Huh? You quote my statement saying "But one has to remember that we cannot lump all Heathens into one definition." and accuse me of not understanding there are different types of Heathens? And my post had nothing about history in it. Also, what does QFT stand for please? I'm afraid I do not understand. Other than you seem to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

[Juniper138]

And again--I'm stating I'm not Heathen...and someone more knowledgable needs to step in here.

Elise

I did. With my Asatru godhi mate looking over my shoulder as I posted sweetie.

[Philosophia]

Huh? You quote my statement saying "But one has to remember that we cannot lump all Heathens into one definition." and accuse me of not understanding there are different types of Heathens? And my post had nothing about history in it. Also, what does QFT stand for please? I'm afraid I do not understand. Other than you seem to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

QFT means "quoted for truth", essentially agreeing with what you wrote and using it as an example.

[Torulf]

Elise, I am sorry to say that you do not seem to have understood my point at all. As Juniper says you seem to argue just for the sake of it, however some of your arguments cannot even be callen arguments. The problem is that you have taken it personal, one has (most often) to keep the distance in order for the discussion to be serious. Otherwise it is easy for it to be overly influenced by emotions which in turn lead it to nothing at all. Then it is no longer a worthwhile discussion but two people screaming at each other. And to be honest, such scenarios are a worthless waste of both persons time.

I have never claimed to know the asatru community, read my post again and you will se that I explicit write that I am an outsider. How am I then supposed to know what your community means by heathen if I am not a part of this community. As I say, I know the official interpretation of the word and I start my argument from that.This sounds more like someone who writes something out of anger more than anything else.

I respect that you have your own worldview, but for that sake I must have the right to question things. If you do not wish to discuss your ideas and such then dont go into an argumentation. Are you mad with me for presenting a view different from yours? I have not done anything but presented my views and put forth agruments supporting those theories. Then everyone will have to evaluate these arguments to see if they are just or not. It's really very simple and is a part of the basics of argumentation. It is not personal, you can just ignore them if you wish.

This post was not fun to write so unless this thread return to being a discussion I will not engage in it anymore. So I say, lets drop this or keep the distance aye?

[Dawa Lhamo]

None of the Asatruar (or other Heathens) I know are racist (or chauvanist or homophobic, either). There is a tendency towards interest and pride (actual pride, not hate masked as pride) in one's own ancestry, in one's own family. But this isn't necessarily racism. It's not about skin color or purity or anything.

In this world today, you can have someone with English, Cherokee, German and African ancestors.... practically everyone is a mutt. ;) So what if a Heathen has a connection via his ancestors? He's probably got a connection to a dozen other places and cultures, too. I don't see why that idea is such a bad thing.

And heck, my ancestors are pretty much all Germans, Norwegians, and Finns, but I'm not particularly called by the religions native to Germany, Norway, or Finland. I'm more called to English religions... and to Indian religions, believe it or not. *shrugs*

[Dawa Lhamo]

As Juniper says you seem to argue just for the sake of it, however some of your arguments cannot even be callen arguments. I think that was a misunderstanding, though. Juniper said something, Elise agreed and elaborated, but she used "QFT" which some don't know is an abbreviation for an emphatic agreement (I had to Google it myself a couple months ago), and Juniper thought she was disagreeing... it didn't make sense to her, which is why she said what she said.
I have never claimed to know the asatru community, read my post again and you will se that I explicit write that I am an outsider. How am I then supposed to know what your community means by heathen if I am not a part of this community. As I say, I know the official interpretation of the word and I start my argument from that.This sounds more like someone who writes something out of anger more than anything else. Well, now you know. The word "Heathen" when used by people who self-identify, is pretty much a word meaning someone who follows a Germanic/Norse/Teutonic religion. It's to differentiate from "Pagan" which is culturally associated with Celts and Wiccans and all manner of other people. ^_^ If you look at the OED definition of 'heathen' or 'pagan' or 'witch'... it *always* conflicts with people who self-identify as heathen or pagan or witch.

My suggestion, when you, or anyone else, runs into these semantic sinkholes... where you run across a word that you thought you knew but it's being used in ways that don't make any sense... is to look it up from several different sources. OED or other dictionaries can give you an idea, but they aren't up-to-date on popular current usages, so Wikipedia or Google might be better for that angle. If it's a descriptor label, try to see what the people who *self-identify* say that it means. And the truth is always in the middle. ;)

[David19]

None of the Asatruar (or other Heathens) I know are racist (or chauvanist or homophobic, either). There is a tendency towards interest and pride (actual pride, not hate masked as pride) in one's own ancestry, in one's own family. But this isn't necessarily racism. It's not about skin color or purity or anything.

In this world today, you can have someone with English, Cherokee, German and African ancestors.... practically everyone is a mutt. ;) So what if a Heathen has a connection via his ancestors? He's probably got a connection to a dozen other places and cultures, too. I don't see why that idea is such a bad thing.

And heck, my ancestors are pretty much all Germans, Norwegians, and Finns, but I'm not particularly called by the religions native to Germany, Norway, or Finland. I'm more called to English religions... and to Indian religions, believe it or not. *shrugs*

Kind of OT here, but wouldn't some of the English religions be related to the Germanic ones (like this site (http://www.homestead.com/englishheathenism/introduction.html)).

If you go to this site, http://www.angelfire.com/nm/seidhman/index.html and click on the link called 'Drinking from the Well of Mimir' (a very long, but very good, IMO,book), it explains why having a connection to the ancestors and the dead matters (particularly in the Underworld chapter, but it has a lot of great info in all chapters).

[~Elise~]

Huh? You quote my statement saying "But one has to remember that we cannot lump all Heathens into one definition." and accuse me of not understanding there are different types of Heathens? And my post had nothing about history in it. Also, what does QFT stand for please? I'm afraid I do not understand. Other than you seem to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

QFT means quoted for truth... I was agreeing with you, emphatically (even to the Republican part :hehehehe: )

I was using your statement as part of my answer to Torulf.

Elise

[~Elise~]

Elise, I am sorry to say that you do not seem to have understood my point at all. As Juniper says you seem to argue just for the sake of it, however some of your arguments cannot even be callen arguments. The problem is that you have taken it personal, one has (most often) to keep the distance in order for the discussion to be serious. Otherwise it is easy for it to be overly influenced by emotions which in turn lead it to nothing at all. Then it is no longer a worthwhile discussion but two people screaming at each other. And to be honest, such scenarios are a worthless waste of both persons time.

I have never claimed to know the asatru community, read my post again and you will se that I explicit write that I am an outsider. How am I then supposed to know what your community means by heathen if I am not a part of this community. As I say, I know the official interpretation of the word and I start my argument from that.This sounds more like someone who writes something out of anger more than anything else.

I respect that you have your own worldview, but for that sake I must have the right to question things. If you do not wish to discuss your ideas and such then dont go into an argumentation. Are you mad with me for presenting a view different from yours? I have not done anything but presented my views and put forth agruments supporting those theories. Then everyone will have to evaluate these arguments to see if they are just or not. It's really very simple and is a part of the basics of argumentation. It is not personal, you can just ignore them if you wish.

This post was not fun to write so unless this thread return to being a discussion I will not engage in it anymore. So I say, lets drop this or keep the distance aye?

It is not personal by any means. No, you have been presented time and again with proof that lineage IS important in asatru/heathen. Your first post in this thread said that it didn't and you've been trying to stick to that ever since.

All Gods are not one God in my view...I've never tried to change your mind on that. BUT that particular POV is also a Heathen POV. So for you to say in a Heathen thread that different gods in different cultures as the same as another is dismissing yet another tenet in the Heathen religion. THAT is what I'm arguing. You are not Heathen - so you can not come in and say what isn't and what is Heathen.

I dislike people who come into a thread - post errornous beliefs as facts without ANY proof-and then take the defensive when someone calls them on it.

Heathens have posted in here in support of what I posted--and not once have you admitted your errors.

Elise

[~Elise~]

I did. With my Asatru godhi mate looking over my shoulder as I posted sweetie.

And I thank BOTH of you for it, too!

Elise

[Lunacie]

Secondly, the term heathen is according to the Oxford dictionary,
" • noun derogatory a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) as regarded by those who do."
This is how I use the word, your way of using heathen I would say is more inofficial. So I am not poorly informed at all, as a matter of fact I do use the word in according to it's meaning. Then if you do use it in another form then it is up to you, however you cannot expect an outsider to know how your group uses the word if it is not in line with the official interpretation.

.

I don't agree that any dictionary has a more "official" description of a word or a title than a large group of people who use that word or title and have reached a group concensus of the meaning. Dictionaries can actually be wrong **gasp** and/or out of date.

For instance most dictionaries still say that Wicca is a religion that focuses on a "mother goddess" while most Wiccans will flat out laugh or become defensive if they are told that's what they believe. If you ask instead of telling, they will explain that we honor a variety of goddesses AND gods, with many personalities such as warrior and death as well as mother/father. There is a small group of Wiccans who do focus on just the goddess dieties, but they are a minority.

Anytime a group of seemingly knowledgable people tell you something that doesn't mesh with the dictionary, then it's time to either accept the common usage rather than the dictionary definition, or else do some research to determine which is the most authentic (versus offician) definition.

[Hærfest Leah]

Anytime a group of seemingly knowledgable people tell you something that doesn't mesh with the dictionary, then it's time to either accept the common usage rather than the dictionary definition, or else do some research to determine which is the most authentic (versus offician) definition.

Exactly, also the dictionary definition for some terms is just out of date. Words like Pagan and Heathen have evolved greatly and changed in use since the Inquisitions. lol

[Juniper138]

QFT means quoted for truth... I was agreeing with you, emphatically (even to the Republican part :hehehehe: )

I was using your statement as part of my answer to Torulf.

Elise

Okies

[Rick]

Secondly, the term heathen is according to the Oxford dictionary,
" • noun derogatory a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) as regarded by those who do."
This is how I use the word, your way of using heathen I would say is more inofficial. So I am not poorly informed at all, as a matter of fact I do use the word in according to it's meaning. Then if you do use it in another form then it is up to you, however you cannot expect an outsider to know how your group uses the word if it is not in line with the official interpretation.
It is obvious that English isn't your native tongue. Ain't mine , either. Mine is Southern American Redneck. Aussies speak Australian. Even the English don't speak 'dictionary' English. Dictionaries often don't give "common usage" for words, or are several years behind such usage. I speak a little German & a little Mexican (see the above example as to why I didn't say Spanish), but wouldn't think of correcting a native speaker of either. Bad form, & would simply display how much I didn't know.


Well I can truthfully admit that I have not studied the prose Edda or the poetic one either.
You would do well to do so before posting your opinion, which you freely admit is based upon how much you don't know about a religion.


However, even if a god does not have the exact same qualities or even differ quite a bit between places (as in your example with Frey) it is not necessarily different Gods. Depending on the circumstances the Gods abilitys may change. a completely farming society may embrace a different side of a god than a primarily fishing society would. You see my point? Even personalities may change because of the peoples needs but it is probably the same basic god.
Again, please don't presume to tell me about the faith that I live every day until you have lived it every day for as long as I have. Then, forty or fifty years from now, come back & give us your views. I iron-clad guarantee they will not be the same, even as my views on the Folkvang have changed over the years.


Ok, laughing about Juteland may not have been very mature. I just found it hard to believe that someone could actually trace themselves to Harald Bluetooth or such.
The lineage of the kings of Norway (and lineage of the royals of just about everywhere) is very well documented. It's the common folks whose lines weren't well recorded. Finding a connection to a royal or other famous person is relatively easy; finding a connection to a scullery maid or a ship builder is another matter. As to Bluetooth... well, if my family branches to him, I may have to prune that branch...


When bringing in Beowulf and Rus into the picture you have to know that their importance or even existance in being debated among historians. Even if some people say that Rus is the founder of Russia not all do agree there are arguments speaking for as well as against. The Russians have never accepted that this would be the case whielst scandinavias have most often claimed it to be so. Also Beowulf is very hard for many historians to accept as there are few or no reliable sources about this man. There is only the tale of Beowulf (I am sorry I do not know the english title).
The English title to the tale of Beowulf is Beowulf (the oldest known story or saga in English). There is evidence that a real king of Juteland had that name (but we'll never know if he killed a monster named Grendel, I reckon). There is no debate among scholars as to the Rus settling along the Volga & dominating the area for many years. There is little current debate among Russian scholars as to their country being named for the Rus; this was long denied, however, among USSR 'scholars' (read: state propagandists).


However, I might not study the "faith" in the way you would but I do have a special relationship with Freja as I do owe her for some favors. In other words I do have contacts with the gods and if I turn to any gods it is always the norse. I do however feel that you should present some form of proof to support your argumentation when you say that I am wrong. I must say that I consider it at best moderate.

As for you feeling that I am agressive in my argumentation. I'm sorry I just think it is fun to argument, cant really help it as I get carried away :P
However, know that even if it do not seem that way I most often have a friendly smile on my face.
Until you have studied the Folkvang, there is little point in your arguing about it, no matter how much it amuses you (it just sorta wears the rest of us out). You have a right to your opinion, but an informed opinion is better respected.

You seem like a nice enough fellow. Go study, then come back & tell us what you've learned.

[S_Wodening]

First of all and most importantly, I do apologise if someone have felt that I am calling them a racist because of their connection to Asatru. I can assure you I do not, I do of course respect you for being proud of your heritage. If you feel any other way I am sorry, it was never my intention.

Secondly, the term heathen is according to the Oxford dictionary,
" • noun derogatory a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) as regarded by those who do."
This is how I use the word, your way of using heathen I would say is more inofficial. So I am not poorly informed at all, as a matter of fact I do use the word in according to it's meaning. Then if you do use it in another form then it is up to you, however you cannot expect an outsider to know how your group uses the word if it is not in line with the official interpretation.

You obvoiusly did not use the OED, but one of the compact versions. The OED states in one of its definitions a follower of the Germanic gods (I am paraphrasing here as I do not have a copy before me). Too, it is very common knowledge that heathen today refers to followers of the Germanic religions, and not just any pagan.




Well I can truthfully admit that I have not studied the prose Edda or the poetic one either. However, even if a god does not have the exact same qualities or even differ quite a bit between places (as in your example with Frey) it is not necessarily different Gods. Depending on the circumstances the Gods abilitys may change. a completely farming society may embrace a different side of a god than a primarily fishing society would. You see my point? Even personalities may change because of the peoples needs but it is probably the same basic god.



Agreed




Ok, laughing about Juteland may not have been very mature. I just found it hard to believe that someone could actually trace themselves to Harald Bluetooth or such.

It is quite possible if one has some relation to a royal line. If so it is possible to trace the ancestry. Royal lines tend to be well documented as do many of the noble lines. For example, my mother's line was a noble house in England. Some of my ancestors married into the royal lines, and if I trace along those lines it branches out into all kinds of people that we read about in the histories.






When bringing in Beowulf and Rus into the picture you have to know that their importance or even existance in being debated among historians. Even if some people say that Rus is the founder of Russia not all do agree there are arguments speaking for as well as against. The Russians have never accepted that this would be the case whielst scandinavias have most often claimed it to be so. Also Beowulf is very hard for many historians to accept as there are few or no reliable sources about this man. There is only the tale of Beowulf (I am sorry I do not know the english title).

As to the Rus, they are accepted as part of the history of Russia, and known to have been Norse and Swedish Vikings that move into the country. There are those that trace their ancestry to them, just as many Irish do the same with the Norse.

Beowulf is the title. Beowulf is accepted not as history but myth. That does not mean that he did not exist as a king. Many of the figures in the poem such as Hrothgar are based somewhat on historical figures such as appear in the Hrolf Kraki Saga. There is much other material we can get besides historical from the poem. For example, we would not have the outline of a Germanic funeral were it not for Beowulf, as well as part of the structure of the rite of symbel.




To Elise, aye you are correct, the records are way better when treating royal lines. And I do believe that records about William I may be considerate. As you said, it sounded a bit like bragging :P
However, I might not study the "faith" in the way you would but I do have a special relationship with Freja as I do owe her for some favors. In other words I do have contacts with the gods and if I turn to any gods it is always the norse. I do however feel that you should present some form of proof to support your argumentation when you say that I am wrong. I must say that I consider it at best moderate.
As for you feeling that I am agressive in my argumentation. I'm sorry I just think it is fun to argument, cant really help it as I get carried away :P
However, know that even if it do not seem that way I most often have a friendly smile on my face.

Submit proof that someone is wrong??? It does not work that way, it is up to you to bring in proof you are right. For example, if I make an arguement that wyrd is linked to the rite of symbel, and folks challenge me, it is not up to them to prove where I am wrong. It would simply become my word against their's. However, if I wanted to prove I am right, I can cite Bauschatz's book The Well and the Tree and then folks could look at his evidence and see if I have proven my point.

Welga!
Swain

[Hærfest Leah]

It is quite possible if one has some relation to a royal line. If so it is possible to trace the ancestry.



Regarding Harold Bluetooth... Yes it is, I found it quite easy to trace my lineage to him although for me he is only a close cousin. Once you hook into royalty, that's the easiest to trace. I was more thrilled about the Yngling line.

And for Beowulf, although on wiki I found this page on Beowulf interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_for_Beowulf_and_Hr%C3%B3lf_Kraki

I actually found King Hrothgar in my genealogy, that's Yngling line also but you know that.

[Torulf]

I can see the value in looking at words from a more common use perspective. However the OED (I use the internet OED) is correct english so I can hardly be blamed for using it as a source. Dictionaries is perhaps not always in line with the common usages but I can frankly say that I have never stumbled upon your definition of Heathen before. I wonder if this usage of heathen is something confined to the States or if it is a more widely accepted interpretation. I urge people from Great Britain to say theirs as well.

Rick, I do not try to tell you about your faith as such. I just present different persectives. You do of course know that even if you for long have studied something you cannot know everything. And since you have some life experience you will also know that sometimes someone comes along and points out things you never really thought about. Besides if you tell me that it is wrong that the same gods qualities never differ between places then you are wrong I am afraid. It is seen time after time through history that a god and it's qualities are adapted to the worshippers and their reality. Even among societies very close by it can differ. The Frej in one town may be different from Frej 500 km.s away. This is something that one will have to take in account when discussing such matters. As you say, I will not even try to instruct you in your own faith but this is not it. This is not something you would have had to read old litterature to understand, a mere understanding of human nature is enough. And an objective observer would probably see my point.

About Rus, you may say that there is no debate, however I have a professor in history which says otherwise. I will chose to believe him as he has more credibility in this matter. The Rus settling along the Volga I will say nothing about though, it is true I would say. The debate is whether the founder of Russia was a viking or not.

By the way, it is true what you say about changing perspectives over time. Of course we do change them, however, it does not mean that we are wrong just because of our youth. Experience is worth a lot, especially in credibility. However it is no guarantee for being correct.

I will study The Eddas and such, however I will not be quiet in the meantime. You never learn unless you question aye? I'm sorry that it wears you down, but if you do feel that it is such a pain then perhaps you should refrain from answering? I do appreciate everyones answers though. =)

[Hærfest Leah]

Rick, I do not try to tell you about your faith as such. I just present different persectives. You do of course know that even if you for long have studied something you cannot know everything. And since you have some life experience you will also know that sometimes someone comes along and points out things you never really thought about. Besides if you tell me that it is wrong that the same gods qualities never differ between places then you are wrong I am afraid. It is seen time after time through history that a god and it's qualities are adapted to the worshippers and their reality. Even among societies very close by it can differ. The Frej in one town may be different from Frej 500 km.s away. This is something that one will have to take in account when discussing such matters. As you say, I will not even try to instruct you in your own faith but this is not it. This is not something you would have had to read old litterature to understand, a mere understanding of human nature is enough. And an objective observer would probably see my point.


I don't think Rick was trying to say a deity does not at all vary by location, I know he knows this. He is also not ignorant on human nature.


About Rus, you may say that there is no debate, however I have a professor in history which says otherwise. I will chose to believe him as he has more credibility in this matter. .... The debate is whether the founder of Russia was a viking or not.

So what does your history professor have to say? I'm a history major.


By the way, it is true what you say about changing perspectives over time. Of course we do change them, however, it does not mean that we are wrong just because of our youth. Experience is worth a lot, especially in credibility. However it is no guarantee for being correct.

This is true but it is usually easier to make an arse of ones self when one has neither.


I will study The Eddas and such, however I will not be quiet in the meantime. You never learn unless you question aye? I'm sorry that it wears you down, but if you do feel that it is such a pain then perhaps you should refrain from answering? I do appreciate everyones answers though. =)

We have no problems of you adding to discussions but challenging our beliefs and ideals having not done the homework or just having no regard will not be accepted. We have a nice group of Heathens here, as far as Heathens can go it could be a lot worse. I don't think Rick can be encouraged to stay out of discussion since he is a pillar here so give up that idea right here. That (attempting to wear us all out) was tried by another before and failed miserably.

[~Elise~]

Torulf--

You have absolutely NO correct perspective other than a UPG. (don't know what that is--go look it up). You have been proven to be wrong time and again BY MULTIPLE people. and still you cling to what is wrong. you are not trying to learn anything new.

Until you learn something about the faith other than the names of the Gods/Goddess-go away. Unless you TRULY want to learn about the faith. Then prove it--go study. Start with www.northvegr.org (http://www.northvegr.org) . Spend about a week there, learning and absorbing. Then come back and make some intelligent statements about the faith... not changing the basic tenets of a faith that goes back to pre-Christian times and that you obviously know nothing about.

Other than that-you are acting like nothing other than a troll.

Elise

[Kern]

I believe that Tiw/Tyr is Tir,Woden is Oden/Odin,Ingui/Ing Fre is Freyr, Freya/Freo is Freja ,Thunor is Thor,etc even though they may have some different qualities or attributes from place to place and different spellings for their names.
Do I consider myself Heathen YES,am I a member of one particular branch,no not at the time,though Im more drawn to Anglo Saxon Heathenism.

Any one know what lineage King Rollo of Norway had?

[Torulf]

Seapearls relax, it seems to be another misunderstanding, in this case probably from my account.
I understood it as Rick did disagree on the point that the emphasis of gods qualities varied between different places. And I haven't said that he was ignorant in human nature either. In essence I said, I do understand humans quite well (as many of us do) and therefor I could engage in this particular branch of the discussion on a valid ground. Perhaps you did not understand this?

Wearing you down, do you think that is what I have been doing? Let me clearify that I am not your enemy unless you have made me one. What I have done is nothing but questioning things which everyone is entitled to. You should not need a special measurements of information to do so. Challenging your beliefs without doing my homework you say. So basically what you are saying is that I cant disagree with you in a public discussion and then bring up things supporting my point of view without reading what you consider essential for the discussion. Everyone act from their own frame of experience and knowledge and at least my opinion is that they are to be accepted into a discussion. I find it ridiculous that I should be excluded from a discussion just because you think that I am not enough well informed. I dont find this a valid reason at all.
I quote Voltaire "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[Rick]

I can see the value in looking at words from a more common use perspective. However the OED (I use the internet OED) is correct english so I can hardly be blamed for using it as a source. Dictionaries is perhaps not always in line with the common usages but I can frankly say that I have never stumbled upon your definition of Heathen before. I wonder if this usage of heathen is something confined to the States or if it is a more widely accepted interpretation. I urge people from Great Britain to say theirs as well.
Why don't you try Webster's Dictionary? What makes it any less "official"? Who died and set you up as the judge of what's "official" & what's not?


Rick, I do not try to tell you about your faith as such. I just present different persectives. You do of course know that even if you for long have studied something you cannot know everything. And since you have some life experience you will also know that sometimes someone comes along and points out things you never really thought about. Besides if you tell me that it is wrong that the same gods qualities never differ between places then you are wrong I am afraid. It is seen time after time through history that a god and it's qualities are adapted to the worshippers and their reality. Even among societies very close by it can differ. The Frej in one town may be different from Frej 500 km.s away. This is something that one will have to take in account when discussing such matters. As you say, I will not even try to instruct you in your own faith but this is not it. This is not something you would have had to read old litterature to understand, a mere understanding of human nature is enough. And an objective observer would probably see my point.
Son, you've done nothing besides tell me about my faith as such. By your own admission, you are not a practitioner, nor have studied the Northern Way, so frankly you have no perspective, just an opinion.

As to gods differing in different places, you just made my point nicely... thanks.


About Rus, you may say that there is no debate, however I have a professor in history which says otherwise. I will chose to believe him as he has more credibility in this matter. The Rus settling along the Volga I will say nothing about though, it is true I would say. The debate is whether the founder of Russia was a viking or not.
Nowhere did I state that Russia was founded by the Rus, or a Rus. I did state that Russia is named for the Rus. And most college professors, especially liberal college professors (you're in Europe, so I assume that you live in a liberal nation. If there are any conservative nations left in Europe, please raise your hands) have their own agendas. I frankly give very, very few college history professors anywhere much credibility for non-bias. My college prof. for U.S. history was Chinese... from China... couldn't understand much anything he said... but I guarantee that what he taught in his class was not what my high school history teacher taught.


By the way, it is true what you say about changing perspectives over time. Of course we do change them, however, it does not mean that we are wrong just because of our youth. Experience is worth a lot, especially in credibility. However it is no guarantee for being correct.
We only change our POVs because we learn that they are incorrect. Changing them for any other reason is asinine. Ergo experience is worth everything.


I will study The Eddas and such, however I will not be quiet in the meantime. You never learn unless you question aye? I'm sorry that it wears you down, but if you do feel that it is such a pain then perhaps you should refrain from answering? I do appreciate everyones answers though. =)
Then we must persist in educating you. It is our solemn duty.

Can ya wait 'til tomorrow, though? I gotta go get some vitamins... and maybe some vodka...


I believe that Tiw/Tyr is Tir,Woden is Oden/Odin,Ingui/Ing Fre is Freyr, Freya/Freo is Freja ,Thunor is Thor,etc even though they may have some different qualities or attributes from place to place and different spellings for their names.
Do I consider myself Heathen YES,am I a member of one particular branch,no not at the time,though Im more drawn to Anglo Saxon Heathenism.
Maybe, I dunno... we're gonna have to agree to disagree... 'cuz I don't think Odin=Wotan... similar to, but not exactly same as...


Any one know what lineage King Rollo of Norway had?
Um... Norse? :hehehehe:

Sorry... I haven't had my vitamin & vodka tonic yet...

[Seren_]

I can see the value in looking at words from a more common use perspective. However the OED (I use the internet OED) is correct english so I can hardly be blamed for using it as a source. Dictionaries is perhaps not always in line with the common usages but I can frankly say that I have never stumbled upon your definition of Heathen before. I wonder if this usage of heathen is something confined to the States or if it is a more widely accepted interpretation. I urge people from Great Britain to say theirs as well.


Whilst heathen=nonChristian is the general definition that your typical bloke off the street might understand it, heathen is an accepted label for those who follow the Germanic gods (usually within a reconstructionist context) in pretty much any English speaking country. And as somebody else has pointed out this definition is also generally recognised in dictionaries.

Words often have a slightly, sometimes vastly, different meaning when used in specific circles/arenas etc so it's important to consider the context. I might joke to my Christian friends that I'm 'just a godless heathen' because to their fundie friends I am - not Christian and therefore, in their opinion, Godless and all that. But if I were at a local pagan moot and someone introduced themselves to me as heathen, I would understand it to have an altogether different meaning.

There have been some threads discussing the definition already, like this one: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=149440

[Kern]

Maybe, I dunno... we're gonna have to agree to disagree... 'cuz I don't think Odin=Wotan... similar to, but not exactly same as...


Um... Norse? :hehehehe:

Sorry... I haven't had my vitamin & vodka tonic yet...

That's okay with me..lol..
But the way I see it is, the Anglo's,Saxon's and Jutes were all Germanic tribes from primarly the area of Jutland ,when they migrated to Britian they brought their gods with them to Britian,they didnt abandon them and just take the names of the gods with them. Jorge for example is still George,its just a different spelling and pronunciation,he didnt become a different person after the move,he may have grown and took on new characteristics though.The same goes for the gods they may have took on different attributes
or associations as the people and living changed.Woden the Allfather is still Oden the Allfather,no matter where one is etc.Well thats how I see it.

HA HA Norse you say,really?:hehehehe:

[Hærfest Leah]

Any one know what lineage King Rollo of Norway had?

Yeah I'll go with Norse also, he's a gr grandfather 4 different ways for me.


Seapearls relax, it seems to be another misunderstanding, in this case probably from my account.


Haha yes because I am relaxed but I'm not liking the way your going about sliding in the personal attacks and implications. You've made some people mad here but your still being spoken to pretty nicely. Please do the same or I'll be contacting the mod squad or just close the thread which I'd rather not do.


So basically what you are saying is that I cant disagree with you in a public discussion and then bring up things supporting my point of view without reading what you consider essential for the discussion.

You can but now you see where it gets you. We welcome questions and discussion, and not everyone needs to be an expert on everything in the discussion. But if your not atleast partially knowledgeable, then do not act like everyone else is in the wrong and talk down to people like they're beneath you.

[Juniper138]

I wonder if this usage of heathen is something confined to the States or if it is a more widely accepted interpretation. I urge people from Great Britain to say theirs as well.

I can attest to the fact that Heathen is used to denote followers of the old (and modern) Germanic and Viking religions in the USA, Canada, England and Australia. :hahugh:

I wonder how many authors of Dictionaries are Christian? Or know nothing abou Paganism or Heathenry. Hmmmmm

[Kern]

Yeah I'll go with Norse also, he's a gr grandfather 4 different ways for me.


Well Im distantly related to him aswell,but was trying to find out if,he was related to the Yingling Royal family of Sweden or a different one.

[S_Wodening]

Well Im distantly related to him aswell,but was trying to find out if,he was related to the Yingling Royal family of Sweden or a different one.

You might be able to figure that out from the Heimskringla.

[Hærfest Leah]

Well Im distantly related to him aswell,but was trying to find out if,he was related to the Yingling Royal family of Sweden or a different one.

I checked my genealogy file and he is supposedly the 5th gr grandson on his fathers line (direct descandant) of Olaf Trefeller (Ólafr trételgja) of the Yngling line and the 3rd gr grandson n law of Charlemagne thru his wife Poppa, (Pappia). I supposedly descend from 2 of his and Poppa's children, Adele & William Longsword.

And yes I say "supposedly" since genealogies this far back are not carved in stone.

You may want to check this link out if you have an interest in him...

http://www.hrolfr.com/

[Kern]

Thanks Swain and Seapearls for the replies.

Well on my mothers side we are related to the Coopers,and through them the Plantagenants,so if the Plantagenant royal family line is not true back through William the Conquerer and on back,then mine wouldnt be either and vice versa.Through that line we are also related to the Canmores and Bruces of Scotland so the same principle goes for them.:hahugh:

[~Elise~]

I checked my genealogy file and he is supposedly the 5th gr grandson on his fathers line (direct descandant) of Olaf Trefeller (Ólafr trételgja) of the Yngling line and the 3rd gr grandson n law of Charlemagne thru his wife Poppa, (Pappia). I supposedly descend from 2 of his and Poppa's children, Adele & William Longsword.

And yes I say "supposedly" since genealogies this far back are not carved in stone.

You may want to check this link out if you have an interest in him...

http://www.hrolfr.com/

William Longsword is in my line, too! (actually, he'll be in Rick's too) Poor you, related to both Rick and me. :wave:

Elise

[Hærfest Leah]

If your curious about viking genealogies, a week ago I came across this PDF.

http://www.rogalandslag.org/Files/Ki...eens910227.pdf

Ah crap and now it doesn't seem to be working.

[Zebi]

If your curious about viking genealogies, a week ago I came across this PDF.

http://www.rogalandslag.org/Files/Ki...eens910227.pdf

Ah crap and now it doesn't seem to be working.

You can get to the file from this page; it appears to be under the Kings & Queens header:

http://www.rogalandslag.org/files.htm

[Hærfest Leah]

You can get to the file from this page; it appears to be under the Kings & Queens header:

http://www.rogalandslag.org/files.htm

Thanks, I figured there was a way around it but haven't had the time to go looking.