Magic and time.

[Becoming]

I might be remembering incorrectly, but I do believe that Alister Crowley had an experience where has enacted a magical working with the intent of his friend writing a letter to him. The next day, he recieved the letter, which, then, would have taken days to get there.

The question he proposed was... Is magic confined by 'time'? As in was the magic worked when he worked the spell, or was the spell already working before he did it? Was the intent there and working before the rite? Was the rite even necessary?

[ModernKnight]

I don't believe magic is confined by the normal process of time. Check out this article (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/fotamec1.html) for an example.

[~Owl~]

I agree. In my training of the use of magic, andthe creation , raising, and directin of energy, you can use these methods, ie, tools, etc. to focus your intent on the reality you wish to create, but most importantly, I was taught the moment you THINK of the effect you wish to create, the "spell" is already set in motion.

it is ourown perception of linear reality, that we accept 'time" as a factor for everything, from the mundane, to the magickal.

An example:

My friend SoulFire, (who will attest to this if he sees this) and I had attempted to call each other one day, back in the early 80's.

Both of us had ended up picking up our phones at the SAME time, and were just about to dial each other's number-there was no dial tone.

All of a sudden, we were hearing each other's voices on the other line.


I swear to the Gods, Above and Below, this be the Truth as I know it, and SF will attest to this is if asked.

Just as in a very peerful Circle, wich I have participated in...it can feel like 20minuteshavepassed, yet when we opened Circle, and looked at the clock, THREE HOURS had passed.

Therefore, in MY experinces, no...time has NO meaning, nor does space, in magical workingsl

[MonSno_LeeDra]

You also have to look at the other side of the coin.

Did crawley actually initiate the action to write or was he simply picking up upon the energy focused upon him by the letter writer?

I agree magick has no limitations within the time stream, yet I wonder about the atributing of everything to magick. With so much of our brain unaccounted for whose to say telepathy or other form of mental communication was not taking place and had nothign to do with magic at all.

[Rick]

Meh, "time" is merely the measure of the motion of planetary & stellar bodies, or the measure of the rate of decay of something. In reality, there is only now, & our memories (or other records) of then.

[Garm]

I don't think there is any factor of time displacement here at all

The whole idea of "high magic" is to align ones personal will with the will of the universe so as one acts upon it one can expect to be acted upon

When you look closely at the chain of circumstances that lead you in to performing your spell you may be able to see the network you have been caught up in provided you have the necessary discernment

Such perception is something I really wish was more common

Sometimes it looks like a trade off of freedom to gain power but such is the lot of increasing responsibility

Still it often feels like have been caught tangled in a web for my presumption

[Simply Puzzled]

The question he proposed was... Is magic confined by 'time'? As in was the magic worked when he worked the spell, or was the spell already working before he did it? Was the intent there and working before the rite? Was the rite even necessary?

Magic is no more confined by time than space, but there does seem to be this catch: the catch to magic affecting the past is that it only works so long as the past remains unknown. As much as I hate magicians that justify things with quantum mechanics, think of Schrodinger's cat. Google it if you don't know what I mean. Magic works best when things are in an indeterminate space. If you want to work magic to get rid of HIV in someone, the best time (assuming the risk of exposure is over) is right before they get tested. Once the HIV status is known, it's very hard to change it one way or the other, but while the status is still unknown, it's easier to influence it, even though the exposure has already happened because, as a quantum physicist might point out, until HIV is observed one way or the other, someone cannot have HIV or not-have HIV, they can only exist along a probability continuum of having HIV.

So supposing I want a friend to write me, and I know for a fact that he hasn't written a letter yet, it would take one hell of a spell to get a letter started through the post-office because I know it hasn't been written. But if I have no clue whether he has written me or not, I might cast a spell before checking my mailbox only to find a letter waiting for me.

This has much more to do with how humans perceive time than it does with any property of magic. I suppose if someone truly saw history as flexible, they could easily change the known, and thus be very powerful indeed. But for most of us, our entire lives depend on our car keys being where we left them (if only we could remember where that was) and our jobs still being there in the morning. Suddenly having a different childhood, having married someone else, a person being alive after having died, these realities most of us our not prepared to deal with.

[Son of Deborah]

I think this brings up an interesting question. In your HIV scenario, neither you nor the potentially infected person know the status. Does the other person's knowledge change the outcome of your magic?

For example, let's say I have an Aunt who is having a biopsy done on a growth in her throat. Let's further say that the test was done a week ago, and that you know that she has been given the results, but you yourself do not know what the result is. Would working magic before you call to ask what the results were have the same impact as in the case of the HIV patient? From your vantage-point, she is still in a quantum state of cancer/no cancer, even if she herself knows.

Very interesting and well-thought out post, BTW.


Magic is no more confined by time than space, but there does seem to be this catch: the catch to magic affecting the past is that it only works so long as the past remains unknown. As much as I hate magicians that justify things with quantum mechanics, think of Schrodinger's cat. Google it if you don't know what I mean. Magic works best when things are in an indeterminate space. If you want to work magic to get rid of HIV in someone, the best time (assuming the risk of exposure is over) is right before they get tested. Once the HIV status is known, it's very hard to change it one way or the other, but while the status is still unknown, it's easier to influence it, even though the exposure has already happened because, as a quantum physicist might point out, until HIV is observed one way or the other, someone cannot have HIV or not-have HIV, they can only exist along a probability continuum of having HIV.

So supposing I want a friend to write me, and I know for a fact that he hasn't written a letter yet, it would take one hell of a spell to get a letter started through the post-office because I know it hasn't been written. But if I have no clue whether he has written me or not, I might cast a spell before checking my mailbox only to find a letter waiting for me.

This has much more to do with how humans perceive time than it does with any property of magic. I suppose if someone truly saw history as flexible, they could easily change the known, and thus be very powerful indeed. But for most of us, our entire lives depend on our car keys being where we left them (if only we could remember where that was) and our jobs still being there in the morning. Suddenly having a different childhood, having married someone else, a person being alive after having died, these realities most of us our not prepared to deal with.

[Son of Deborah]

You know what? Don't mind me. I just realized that the situation with the letter is pretty much the analogue to this, as the caster doesn't know, but the target does know.

Ack, Mondays...


I think this brings up an interesting question. In your HIV scenario, neither you nor the potentially infected person know the status. Does the other person's knowledge change the outcome of your magic?

For example, let's say I have an Aunt who is having a biopsy done on a growth in her throat. Let's further say that the test was done a week ago, and that you know that she has been given the results, but you yourself do not know what the result is. Would working magic before you call to ask what the results were have the same impact as in the case of the HIV patient? From your vantage-point, she is still in a quantum state of cancer/no cancer, even if she herself knows.

Very interesting and well-thought out post, BTW.

[~Owl~]

If you want to work magic to get rid of HIV in someone, the best time (assuming the risk of exposure is over) is right before they get tested. Once the HIV status is known, it's very hard to change it one way or the other, but while the status is still unknown, it's easier to influence it, even though the exposure has already happened because, as a quantum physicist might point out, until HIV is observed one way or the other, someone cannot have HIV or not-have HIV, they can only exist along a probability continuum of having HIV.


As contentious as this post is, I'm sure, I can attest to this in a way.

I HAVE slept with HIV infected men before. One told me AFTERWARDS, others, I found out died from it.

Me, this was WELL over 20 years ago, so any chance of symptoms would have been here by now. By most accounts, I'd already be DEAD.

But I CONSTANTLY told myself, that that was NOT a part of my reality. That I did NOT accept that as being a part of my reality in life.

Just the same...

I NEVER get sick. Cold, Flu, etc. I tell myself, I don't have TIME to get sick.

And I don't. I have treated a friend, (SoulFire) years ago, when he and his roomate were deathly ill, and I spent the WHOLE day there, taking care of both of them. They were SO worried I was going to get sick.

I NEVER DID.

This is just my experience.

Then again, I have another condition...that I'd rather not discuss....that caught me by surprise, so...you win some, you lose some.

ETA:

I've been tested 3 times this year. I am HIV-.

My heart goes out to those who weren't so lucky.

I made a "pact" with the Lady. If I stay "negative", I will do my part.

I am now part of the HIV alliance, and the Crisis Center, which includes Suicide Prevention, (like I should be one to talk-but I've told my story, and the hell I paid for surviving-although I didn't say THAT, but for what I paid for, for attempting it).

I have a separate phone number for this, so I know who and what it will be about. Gives me a minute to get into Counselor mode, even though I'm a professional Counselor, with a B.S. in Pych, and an earned ( 'bout timed time too, after being a QMHA for so long!) QMHP after my name, along with the obligatory , MSW...*yawn*

[Teresa]

I do not believe that magic is limited by time. I am of the opinion that "time" can be manipulated by means of magic.

[Simply Puzzled]

You know what? Don't mind me. I just realized that the situation with the letter is pretty much the analogue to this, as the caster doesn't know, but the target does know.

Ack, Mondays...

It's okay. You hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter what other people know as long as it isn't part of your reality.