Are the gods / goddess of the world one with different names?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

On the Pagan board in the thread "In support of Asatru" Torulf wrote:



I also want to say that the danish, norse, swedish, german (teutonic), gods etc. is practically the same although the pronounce the names differently. So Asatru is asatru indifferent of country above as it is the same basic beliefs and gods even though they are spelled differently.



Now I have no wish to touch upon the religious practice of this though but I do want to touch upon the god / goddess facet of it.

To me this string of though creates or inspires the concept that all gods / goddess descend from a centeral 'Deity" figure. Now in the greater scope of the universe perhaps that is a true statement , yet it feels wrong if taken in light of locale lore and belief. It almost feels as justicification of the Abrahamic or Bubbahist concept of just one god.

I find it more realisitic that a god / goddess concept is assimilated into the ruling lore vice all gods / goddess are one. In Christanity the older gods / goddess are / were frequently incorporated into the mythos but in the manner of demons. I do find that the incorporation of gods into Christanity more in the area's of Christian development and origination vice global exportation. In Budhism, many are / were incorporated into the mythos as sub-gods / goddess that represented various facets of the greater Buddah.

In much of the mythology of ancient religions the 'Defeated' or 'Subjucated' peoples gods / goddess were either incorporated into the mythos as equal or semi-equal gods / goddess or became identifed as another facet of an established god / goddess. Some of the inports or changes even getting extended names to denote the area where the new concept originated from.

In the assimilation process, powers are given or taken from the incoming figure to make it more uniform with the dominate mythos. Yet to the locale level person the "God / Goddess" is recognized for the locale belief not the global identy. Over time the "Constructed" persona hiding or masking the original to the point where it may no longer be identififed accept as key words within the core belief which give clues to its origin.

I personally think that to say all are one is to rob the culture of its identy and uniqueness. It robs the people of thier regional and spiritual perspective of what a given "diety' ment to a sea faring people, a farming people, a hunting people, etc.

What do you think collectively?

[Caitlin.ann]

I enjoyed reading your post, MonSno_LeeDra. It brought up some interesting points which I hadn't thought of before. :)

[banondraig]

to answer the title question, some people think that, but i am not one of them.

[David19]

Some people do believe that there's only a limited number of gods known by different names (e.g. one thunder god with 20 different noses and hammers, one love god, etc), but I'm not one of them, like barondraig.

I personally believe that there are possibly an infinite amount of gods (but then I'm also an animist and believe in many different kinds of spirits in everything).

[Twinkle]

I don't believe that the gods are all the same with different names. I believe that all gods are separate and distinct, but still emanate from one Source.

[ModernKnight]

The original poster isn't claiming that all gods are the same. Rather, he's claiming that since the Scandinavian, Saxon and Germanic peoples are all derived from a common root culture, their mythology and pantheon is related. He is not claiming that all gods are one, just claiming that the Scandinavian Odin is the same as the Germanic Wodan, which I believe is justified.

[Twinkle]

The original poster isn't claiming that all gods are the same. Rather, he's claiming that since the Scandinavian, Saxon and Germanic peoples are all derived from a common root culture, their mythology and pantheon is related. He is not claiming that all gods are one, just claiming that the Scandinavian Odin is the same as the Germanic Wodan, which I believe is justified.

Ah. I apologize for the confusion. I honestly don't know enough about the mythology, culture or history to respond with any degree of intelligence. :)

[MonSno_LeeDra]

ModernKnight,

They are but they are not derived from a common culture. If common you mean Indo-European then perhaps yes. However, the climitatic, environmental, and geographical factors of each area creates different perspectives and functionality for each god / goddess.

The harsh conditions of Scandavia are far different than those encountered in the Germanic area. The very sea faring nature of the Nordic area creates a different globle perspective than the land locked tutonic areas of the border plains of asia.

So yes they may appear similar in name and origination but that would be the end of it. But under that same concept then all of the European area and Med basin should have global gods / goddess for they all originated from Indo - European migrations into the area. Each bringin its own cultural norms with them yet also assimilating the customs of the people they displaced.

Sort of like the very concept of the US. I say hog and what do you think of. Am I refering to the creature we call a pig? Am I refering to the motorcycle known as a Hog? Am I refering to the hand gun called a hog or hogs leg? Am I refering to the over eating by an individual?

Lets see where all from the same geographic area ie the US. Were all pretty much descendents of European stock. We all have a global language and word meaning. Our culutural norms are pretty much the same with slight differences based upon reagionalism.

Sorry from an anthropological facet it just don't wash. To much time and differences added to the stew pot from the original Indo-European arrivals. That doesn't even take into consideration that the arrivals were in waves as each group was pushed ahead of the next rising nation.

[~Elise~]

I'm a hard polytheiest--all Gods are not One God (in my worldview) Venus is not the same as Aphrodite...Zeus not that same as Jupiter. (you get the idea--so it follows Odin not the same as Woden)
They all feel different-have a different energy - at least to me anyway.

[skilly-nilly]

On the Pagan board in the thread "In support of Asatru" Torulf wrote:

I also want to say that the danish, norse, swedish, german (teutonic), gods etc. is practically the same although the pronounce the names differently. So Asatru is asatru indifferent of country above as it is the same basic beliefs and gods even though they are spelled differently.


Now I have no wish to touch upon the religious practice of this though but I do want to touch upon the god / goddess facet of it.

To me this string of though creates or inspires the concept that all gods / goddess descend from a centeral 'Deity" figure. Now in the greater scope of the universe perhaps that is a true statement , yet it feels wrong if taken in light of locale lore and belief. It almost feels as justicification of the Abrahamic or Bubbahist concept of just one god.


I personally think that to say all are one is to rob the culture of its identy and uniqueness. It robs the people of thier regional and spiritual perspective of what a given "diety' ment to a sea faring people, a farming people, a hunting people, etc.

What do you think collectively?


The original poster isn't claiming that all gods are the same. Rather, he's claiming that since the Scandinavian, Saxon and Germanic peoples are all derived from a common root culture, their mythology and pantheon is related. He is not claiming that all gods are one, just claiming that the Scandinavian Odin is the same as the Germanic Wodan, which I believe is justified.


I am an absolute polytheist, but (on the one hand) I agree with Knight, I don't read the quoted post as a support of the 'one god' theory either. I think ze is making a point about related cultures having related Gods, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Because (on the other hand) I think that related cultures are related--in more ways than belief. I'm not very familiar with Asatru, but I can draw the same parallels in the culture I am familiar with:
Pre-potato; the Irish ate oat-cakes, the Scots ate oat-cakes....did the Welsh eat oat-cakes?
Pre-Xianity, the Irish had a God Lugh, the Welsh had a Lugh-like (Liu? not sure of the spelling) God...did the Scots have a Lugh-like God?
What I'm saying here is that there are Gods/desses that are considered to be Trans-Celtic (that is, most Celtic cultures had a similar God/dess). That's not 'all gods are one', that's 'these cultures had similar gods'.
What the quoted poster is saying is that there are Trans-Asatru Gods (it seems to me).

I think similar cultures are similar. So related tribes have related Gods, and people in related cultures and endeavours apply to related Gods---all seafaring cultures have a Sea God, land-locked farmers do not.

As well, cultures adopt Gods and then inculturate Them. That's what Xianity is---a whole lot of cultures decided to bring in The Dead God From The Desert but the Jesus of the Culdee Church has almost nothing in common (except the name) with the Jesus of the Pentecostal Snake-Handling Church; They're less alike than Odin and Wodin, neh?

On the gripping hand, I don't think any human can speak confidently about what the Gods are like, exactly. Our perceptions are flawed. Imo, there are 2 ways to inculturate Gods:
We call out ("Lord of the Storms, calm the sea!!") and Someone answers. We call that Being 'The Sea God', but who really knows what Ze does when Ze's at home? (raising tropical fish comes to mind but I push that thought away)

We are exposed to a new God/dess and like Hir, or we take our 'old' pantheon to a new place (over 9 waves, fr'example) and engage in cultural drift from the stay-at-homes. Either way, our culture's Gods are different-but-similar to the other culture's ones.

But, imo, the sameness or differentness of our Gods doesn't tell us anything about the nature of the Gods-At-Home. Even if we, with great difficulty, go Someplace Else and meet our Gods there we have no assurance that the Gods didn't also journey to meet us half-way. Our perceptions, cultural or personal, colour what we understand.

I don't think there's an easy answer:
'I'm a polytheist so there's no Über God/dess'

I think it's far more complex--I'm a polytheist but I'm confidant that the Being I perceive when I relate to The Morrigan is vastly different than other peoples' stated perceptions. So ' how many Morrigans are there' is essentially the same question as 'are Odin and Wodin the same/related'. I believe that only They know.

It 'works' if I approach Them as different, so I do but that doesn't say a real thing about Who the Gods are. Culture isn't religion, nor is an Inculturated Being all that a God/dess 'is'.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I guess I was not clear enough in my initial responce.

It comes across as if the god "Odin" is a unique figure and as such all the releated peoples of the geographical area should have the same representation for thier numero uno god. Hense Wodan, Wodin, Oden, etc shold all be the same person. EAch with the same ability, area of responsibilty and to some extent failings.

Each god / goddess beneath them semi universal in that the Nordic thuder god should be the same as the Germanic thunder god who should be the same as the Danic thunger god. After all they are descended from the same indo-european family group.

Yet this very concept is not supported by the epic sagas and eddas that have come down through the ages.

For instances "The Kalevala (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/index.htm)" of Finish lore is quite different than the epic eddas and saga's of Norway. The Nibelungenlied (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/nblng/index.htm) if far differnt than the Kalevala. This trully doesn't even touch upon the difference between the "Nordic" vikings and the "Icelandic" vikings.

That thier is some uniformity of the area is logical when one looks at the amount of historical influence the Nordic peoples had upon Northern European history. Yet when one reads the tales and such gods / goddess are moved about with relative ease to make the primary god of a given area the supreme one while on the globale scale the winning culture dictates which is the greater global one.

[Kern]

The original poster isn't claiming that all gods are the same. Rather, he's claiming that since the Scandinavian, Saxon and Germanic peoples are all derived from a common root culture, their mythology and pantheon is related. He is not claiming that all gods are one, just claiming that the Scandinavian Odin is the same as the Germanic Wodan, which I believe is justified.

Exactly!:cheers:

[Rick]

"Are the gods / goddess of the world one with different names? "

No

[ModernKnight]

Yet this very concept is not supported by the epic sagas and eddas that have come down through the ages.

For instances "The Kalevala (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/index.htm)" of Finish lore is quite different than the epic eddas and saga's of Norway. The Nibelungenlied (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/nblng/index.htm) if far differnt than the Kalevala. This trully doesn't even touch upon the difference between the "Nordic" vikings and the "Icelandic" vikings.

That thier is some uniformity of the area is logical when one looks at the amount of historical influence the Nordic peoples had upon Northern European history. Yet when one reads the tales and such gods / goddess are moved about with relative ease to make the primary god of a given area the supreme one while on the globale scale the winning culture dictates which is the greater global one.

Unfortunately, for the Germanic religions, we have far fewer myths and legends written down, and virtually none are contemporary with actual belief in the religions. Tacitus' Germania is the sole source written by another pagan, and it has very little on their religion. The Niebelungenleid (also German) wasn't written until somewhere around 1200 and shows abundant Christian contamination. All the Sagas and Eddas were only written down by Christians in the 12th-14th centuries, long after the native religion was made illegal. The Kalevala was written based on old stories first written down in the late 17th century. Obviously the oral tradition is much older, but it's impossible to know how much the original beliefs were changed due to contact with Christianity (800-1000 CE) and how much was changed after the ban on heathenism (1000+).

[S_Wodening]

ModernKnight,

They are but they are not derived from a common culture. If common you mean Indo-European then perhaps yes. However, the climitatic, environmental, and geographical factors of each area creates different perspectives and functionality for each god / goddess.

The harsh conditions of Scandavia are far different than those encountered in the Germanic area. The very sea faring nature of the Nordic area creates a different globle perspective than the land locked tutonic areas of the border plains of asia.

So yes they may appear similar in name and origination but that would be the end of it. But under that same concept then all of the European area and Med basin should have global gods / goddess for they all originated from Indo - European migrations into the area. Each bringin its own cultural norms with them yet also assimilating the customs of the people they displaced.

Sort of like the very concept of the US. I say hog and what do you think of. Am I refering to the creature we call a pig? Am I refering to the motorcycle known as a Hog? Am I refering to the hand gun called a hog or hogs leg? Am I refering to the over eating by an individual?

Lets see where all from the same geographic area ie the US. Were all pretty much descendents of European stock. We all have a global language and word meaning. Our culutural norms are pretty much the same with slight differences based upon reagionalism.

Sorry from an anthropological facet it just don't wash. To much time and differences added to the stew pot from the original Indo-European arrivals. That doesn't even take into consideration that the arrivals were in waves as each group was pushed ahead of the next rising nation.

Actually Modern Knight is correct, they all derive from the Germanic culture. The Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Saxon, Germanic cultures all derive from a proto Germanic culture dating back some 3000 or more years. That is why you find Gods like Woden in Old English as being cognate to Old Norse Othinn. So you do not have to go back to the IE originals you only have to go as far as proto-Germanic which was still around some 2000 years ago. Even after the breakup of the language there were still many cultural exchanges, so that the Gods were considered one. In fact, the Anglo-Saxons themselves identified Woden with Othinn after the Danes invaded England.

[plumedsnake]

Take plumedsnake for instance. Ask some people and they'll tell you that he is an obnoxious idiot. Ask some others and they'll tell you that he's a kind loving dude. Others will say he's stupid which more others will say otherwise. Are all these descriptions of the same person.

I think that it is obvious that the experience of a diety will be filtered through one's cultural perspective. At the end of the day, from the perspective of pragmatic, practical religious practice, if I want to call the rain and I call on Thor to send the rain it'll either work or not. If another priest turns up and says he can do it but he calls on some other diety yet the rites he performs are almost exactly the same as mine and he gets the same or better results, I'll presume that he has a closer access to the god in control of the rain, or the god is fussy about how he is called and only answers the to the correct pronunciation. or The diety has numerous names and is a bit flippant over what name he'll answer to on any particular day.

If no two people share their opinions or experiences then how the hell can any number of people be said to be worshipping the same god? That is if perspectives and opinions matter so much.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Let me preface this with I don't disagree with what your saying. Add to that it's actually sort of difficult to support a concept based on material you haven't read in years.

Ok let me propose how I see the Germanic religions (Actually all Indo -European) to a degree.

I think when the Indo-European peoples first migrated into modern day Europe they had what I would call a Paleo-Religion. It was compossed of gods / goddess yet was also a cultural identy. To some extent even a cultural memory passed down through the generations.

Now as each wave entered the new area they brough this paleo-religion with them. Over time the group which is composed of tribal units or clans would develope Proto-religions that are both core memories of the paleo-religion of their ancestors yet also begining to develope thier own identify based upon their developing social system.

So Common core memory would cause the creation of religious identy to both contains the broader cultural memory with those cultural memories the building blocks upon which the proto-religion would be built. If we assume that Odin (plus variations) is a core figure then it follows reason that the proto-religions would have the same core figures.

Yet the Proto-religious "Odin" would possess the abilities of the Paleo-religions "Odin" yet also grow to posses the abilites that are attributed by the new social / regional / economic developments.

The growing proto-religious "Odin" identifiable to all the clans / tribes / groups from the influence of the Paleo-religious memory core influence. Yet Unique to each grouping to seperate the Nordic groups / Germanic groups / welsh groups / etc. So any member of any group could go to another area and have a connection to the common cultural memory.

Add the exchange of goods, peoples, crafts, ideas and geographical / weather conditions then the exchange of characterics carries outward from the indiviudal clan / tribe etc.

Even as these exchanges take place the process of assimilating the peoples that are conquered, onerrun, assimilated also have an input into the new identy of the proto-religious "Odin". These peoples will begin to identify with the proto-religion and infuse thier own religious concepts and memories into the greater mix.

To some extend even creating a dualility of power. If I recall correctly their is a chain of though the the God "Tyr" in some Germanic lore held a position equal to that of "Wodan" . Yet as the communities leveled out the greater belief in the supreme "Wodan" reduced "Tyr" to a lower position yet retained much of the nobility of his former self.

This infusion of differnt cultural norms results in the creation of a area specific religious base. Yes the paleo-religious memories are present. They are the cultural memories of both groups, perhaps similar, perhaps not. The influence of the proto-religious memories are also present, again possiliby similar perhaps not. The union of these groupings creating the "New-religious" Odin.

These "new-Religious" Odins have all the core memories of the earlier groups but now beging to take on the regional specific identifes that will become ethnic basis. They will evolve into the current concept of the Nordic "Odin" in comparrison to the Germanic "Wodan" along with all the other ethnic defined religions.

Again each one based upon the old Paleo-religious "Odin", the Proto-religious "Odin" the New-religious "Odin".

So from a common ancestor the "Odin" figure will grow and reach out across the nationalities. Parts of the Paleo-Odin infusing the core belief enabling it to be recognized by all groups. Recognizaiton enabling the acceptance of the Proto-Odin differences that will be found due to the exchanges of influences. Over time the memory of the earliest "Odin" lost to the lore of myth yet the new-Odin will enable the people to recall the Paleo-Odin and bring those dormant memories to the light of day.

The influence of those "Paleo" breed memories creating an ethnic identy that was born of long ago cultural identies. The stories being "Identifiable" to each grouping regardless of the origination for they all recall the same inner memory. Each "new" Nationality recognizing itself in the story even as they overlook the parts that tell them its not from their "New" Odin.

Reduce the amount of Invasion the area is subject to and the sequence gets tighter in bonding. The "Odin's" of each group resemble each other more so than the differances that seperate them. Yet the seperation is sufficinet that the individual "Odin" of each group never looses its identiy to its own area of influence and development.