Mental illness and Pagans

[David19]

I was reading plumedsnake's post about being psychic and depression, and it got me thinking, have you noticed that there seems to be a tendency for many Pagans to suffer from mental illnesses - if you just look around some of the threads on Mystic Wicks and other forums too, many Pagans seem to suffer from something - OCD, depression, bipolar disorder, really extreme and serious mental illnesses (e.g. schitzophrenia(sp?), etc), and a lot more examples.

But, do you think there's a reason for this or do you think it's just that mental illnesses are rising in the rest of society and it has nothing to do with being Pagan?.

When I get really stressed, I can enter a kind of depression, which is why I try and reduce any stress or I take breaks and just relax to reduce any depression setting in.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?.

[Whitewolf]

I also get stressed out and it causes me to become depressed. I had to quit one of my jobs because I had so much anxiety and stress from it. I think it's just that mental illnesses are rising in the rest of society and it has nothing to do with being Pagan.

[Lunacie]

I think if you find a discussion board for any other religion where the level of acceptance and non-judgment is as good as it is here, you'll find plenty of posters there admitting that they struggle with depression and other neurological issues, or have family members who struggle. It's just easy to talk about these things in a supportive and accepting atmosphere like you find here on MW.

And then you have people like me who talk about those issues everywhere, just to get feedback on coping strategies as well as sympathy and support. :hahugh:

[Iris]

I'm pretty sure it's got nothing to do with being pagan. Certainly when I was in High School (which is when I suffered from a bad bout of depression) many of the people I knew were going through similar things. I knew a lot of people who self-harmed, and several with eating disorders. I was the only one who openly identified as being 'Pagan'.

I do feel that there is a tendency for people who are, shall we say, deluded to find Paganism. I have met several people who seem to have been drawn to paganism via the cunning use of RPGs. Seriously. These people just want to have some kind of dramatic and 'magical' life or something...they are the reason I stopped going to my local open circle.

By the way, I'm not saying that ALL RPGers are deluded. I'm just saying there is a section of Pagan society that are delusional lunatics!

[Renny]

I think I hear more about non pagans having mental issues.


Also keep in mind that you're reading pagan forums, I'm sure if you went to forums of some other faith there would be just as many. I think people talk about their issues alot on mw because they feel they can receive some kind of emotional support here.

[childofbast]

I agree with many of the others. I think it's more of a societal issue. I've never had any serious mental issues at all. Little stress here and there... But that's normal. My sister, on the other hand, has OCD and needs medication to control it. She's not Pagan but a devoted Christian. *shrug*

[spirit wind]

Yeah, I think it's because on here people feel more at ease to discuss these (and all) issues. I think it would be the same on other open minded and safe forums.
I know quite a few people that have a mental illness of some kind or other and a lot of them are Pagan or Wiccan or something similar.

I personally have Bi Polar and Borderline so maybe the reason I know so many people with a mental illness is because of the circles of people around me.
But statistics show that Mental Illness in general is on the rise in all societys, but I think that is beacuse it is more recognised andaccepted now than it was years ago.


L&L&L
SW

[demonique]

Not the first time I've heard this exact question. I don't, however, find any merit to it. Mental illness, depression, and the like affect every faith equally, and it is indeed more prevalent in today's world - where such things are recognized, diagnosed, and treated much more often than they would have been in the past. It's quite possible that pagans in general are more apt - on forums, especially - to discuss and admit to these matters. I know there's a certain segment of Christians who believe that any such depression/mental problems only means you don't have enough faith or something similar, which would make people less prone to mention it. Nothing like a little stigma to keep you in the closet.

[cheddarsox]

I see people talk about it to a high degree on other religious forums as well, so it doesn't seem to be a pagan issue.

Also, sometimes people suffering depression are not working, or have a hard time getting the energy together to get out and do stuff, and might be overrepresented in the number of posts they have. When friends I know, who have mental health issues are having a hard time, they tend to hole up and tune in to their virtual community more than their physical one.

[StormVixen]

i think most people are mental weather the know it or not

[Zibblsnrt]

Not the first time I've heard this exact question. I don't, however, find any merit to it. Mental illness, depression, and the like affect every faith equally, and it is indeed more prevalent in today's world - where such things are recognized, diagnosed, and treated much more often than they would have been in the past. It's quite possible that pagans in general are more apt - on forums, especially - to discuss and admit to these matters.

It's probably a combination of willingness to admit to things, the anonymity of forums, and the fact that MW really has a pretty young demographic in general. While I have some, uh, serious issues with how the generation I'm in views mental illnesses, I still think it's less broken than the way a lot of people used to handle such things, so it's more taken for granted that they'd exist around here.

On the other hand, I notice similar things in other forums - I lurk on a few dedicated to other belief systems. The younger folks tend to have a roughly similar level of issues, from what I've seen, but each group handles them in a different way. One community will condemn them as signs of weakness, one will take them for granted like any other ailment or injury, one will claim they're actually a gift or bonus, etc.

I'm not really sure that mental illness is more common in the pagan community, but I am certain that it's more accepted/tolerated.

[Sequoia]

I'm not really sure that mental illness is more common in the pagan community, but I am certain that it's more accepted/tolerated.

I would go a step further and say that in some cases, it's encouraged. I've heard people giving positive encouragement to people experiencing hallucinations or overactive imaginations.

I have, however, seen a much more negative view of major medical assistance for mental illness, VS "accepting it" or trying alternatives such as spells. So it is possible that mental illness in pagan communities has a tendency to run more rampant, be less treated or controlled, than in other general communities.

[Lunacie]

I would go a step further and say that in some cases, it's encouraged. I've heard people giving positive encouragement to people experiencing hallucinations or overactive imaginations.

I have, however, seen a much more negative view of major medical assistance for mental illness, VS "accepting it" or trying alternatives such as spells. So it is possible that mental illness in pagan communities has a tendency to run more rampant, be less treated or controlled, than in other general communities.

I think Pagans are less accepting of thowing pharmaceuticals at every illness we experience, and more in favor of trying naturopathic remedies and diet or health changes first. Different perceptions, eh?

[darkchild]

I think Pagans are less accepting of thowing pharmaceuticals at every illness we experience, and more in favor of trying naturopathic remedies and diet or health changes first. Different perceptions, eh?

I agree. Just my opinion, but I don't agree with putting chemicals in my body unless I HAVE to.:hahugh:

[Philosophia]

I agree. Just my opinion, but I don't agree with putting chemicals in my body unless I HAVE to.:hahugh:

And when you have a severe mental illness, you kinda HAVE to.

[dragoncrone]

But statistics show that Mental Illness in general is on the rise in all societys, but I think that is beacuse it is more recognised andaccepted now than it was years ago.
L&L&L
SW

...or could it be that the pharmaceutical companies are spending big money on commercials to convince us that ANY little weird emotional episode we might have is a full-blown psychiatric condition , for which - oh happy day - they just happen to have a new drug on the market, so be sure and ask your doctor!!

What a scam.

[Sequoia]

...or could it be that the pharmaceutical companies are spending big money on commercials to convince us that ANY little weird emotional episode we might have is a full-blown psychiatric condition , for which - oh happy day - they just happen to have a new drug on the market, so be sure and ask your doctor!!

What a scam.

Yeah, tell that to my psychosis and paranoia. Without those "scam artists", I would be living in an institution terrified to leave my own padded little cell.

Maybe YOU don't need it, but some of us do. Mental illness is a real medical condition.

[Philosophia]

...or could it be that the pharmaceutical companies are spending big money on commercials to convince us that ANY little weird emotional episode we might have is a full-blown psychiatric condition , for which - oh happy day - they just happen to have a new drug on the market, so be sure and ask your doctor!!

What a scam.

I slightly agree with this but only because some medications are over prescribed. However, serious mental illnesses need to have their medications.

The reason why mental illness is so prominent nowadays is because there is a spotlight placed upon. This is a double edged sword. In one hand, it destroys the stereotypes, it allows people to get help when they need it, and they don't need to be institutionalized for the rest of their lives. However, on the other hand, some people abuse this system and can literally destroy it for the rest of us. There is still a stigma attached to mental illness and I witness this every single time I have to see my psychiatrist.

[Philosophia]

Yeah, tell that to my psychosis and paranoia. Without those "scam artists", I would be living in an institution terrified to leave my own padded little cell.

Maybe YOU don't need it, but some of us do. Mental illness is a real medical condition.

Exactly. _handclapp

[Sequoia]

Thanks. I just get so sick of the, "It's ALL a scam!" attitude. Yes, some medications are over-prescribed (anti-depressants and antibiotics come to mind), but there are real conditions that require real treatment.

Thanks to those bastard pharmaceutical companies, (and believe me, their prices make me hate them while I'm thankful the medications they own exist) I can live a relatively normal life. I can work, play, love, and be happy. I can live without terror of leaving my house, I can live without seeing cats everywhere I look. I can live without thinking that "they" are coming to "get me", to hurt me, or to harm those I love. Do you even know what living like that is like?

It's easy to brush off all mental illness as a "scam", but it is a sad mistake to make. Mental illness is an illness of the brain, a vital organ which is as susceptible to disease as any other. The difference is that when this organ is damaged or sickened, we act differently. We observe differently. We think differently. But these are diseases nonetheless.

[Lunacie]

If I had bipolar or paranoid schitzophrenia I would hopefully start with pharmaceuticals and see if over time with therapy and diet and supplements I could manage without the pharmaceuticals. I have ADHD (fairly severe) and possibly Anxiety Disorder and have found that supplements like Omega 3 and CoQ-10 have been very helpful in dealing with those.

My biggest complaint with the pharmaceuticals is that they are over-processed and the things that naturally occur are processed out of them so you end up having to take another prescription to counter the side-effects of the prescription you're taking for your primary concern. And far too often the script you take to counter the first side-effect causes another side-effect and the doctor prescribes yet anther medication to counter those side-effects. And eventually you find yourself taking half a dozen medications and still having problems -but- they are different than the problem you started out with, eh.

Anyway, that happens much less often with naturopathic or natural supplements that haven't been made to produce just the one thing that seems helpful, leaving out the things that nature put into the plant that balance the effects overall.

[imapepper]

i think most people are mental weather the know it or not

Exactly. I think if you need proof of the level of mental illness in humans, just take a look at the world and what we glorify, as well as how the collective consciousness manifests.

I don't think there's more mental illness in Paganism, per se, I think some elements of Paganism make one more apt to share that kind of information on a wider scale. I also believe that introspection seems to be a bigger factor in Paganism than some other faiths that kind of just expect you to keep your head down, follow the rules, and place blame without. So that has something to do with perhaps, the more visual presence of mental illness in Paganism, or at least, here on the boards.

I also believe that just because some mental illnesses cannot be classified as having a physiological cause or influence, i.e. it's not some sort of chemical imbalance or brain abnormality, doesn't make it any less real. I think certain people in the medical community should be open to the fact that you can't predict, measure and basically quantify every mental illness out there, and just because you can't, doesn't make it bogus.

I personally believe medication is definitely a necessity for a lot of mental illnesses, I also believe in the mind/body/soul connection, so I think that having a balanced cure of meds, and other methods, for me, would be the best treatment.

I used to be very sensitive and depressed, but I was able to 'cure' myself just with psychotherapy alone but I'm not ignorant enough to think that what's best for me or what worked for me applies across the board. If I was diagnosed with something a pill would help, I'd take it. I'd look for other ways to help myself so I wouldn't be so dependent, but I would never be against it.

[blackroseivy]

I have only been able to live my life - an ADULT life - since being on lithium. I was very badly sick & wrongly medicated for a while - what I was using (depakote) suddenly stopped working, & due to my being in a place where the system is TOTALLY derailed, I remained in that state until moving to - another state (har).

Lithium has put 30 lbs. on my already 20 lbs. overweight frame (the depakote exacerbated my appetite too). I just had someone tell me over in HH&H that there is now a pill that will treat bi-polar just as well as lithium - while CURBING your appetite. Bye-bye, 50 lbs.!! :D

It also does things to my digestion that are positively heinous (the lith, I mean) - making it so that Prilosec (just recently switched to the generic) is something I must have prescribed.

Those are my main worries on the drug.

I know that I can THINK now - concentrate - & not have little invisible friends dictating my life. To me, it's like heaven after hell (only that's the wee bit Monotheistic)!!

I have also been suicidal - years past... Yes, it feels good to be stable...

[Sequoia]

Anyway, that happens much less often with naturopathic or natural supplements that haven't been made to produce just the one thing that seems helpful, leaving out the things that nature put into the plant that balance the effects overall.

The only problem I see with that (apart from the lack of regulations, so you never know what you're getting in an 'herbal suppliment') is that for many conditions, they have yet to locate a plant that sufficiently treats it.

I would love to take a tea every morning instead of my lovely pills, but I have not found any kind of tea that does the job. It's a nice thought, though.

[blackroseivy]

Ditto me exactly to that!

[Lunacie]

The only problem I see with that (apart from the lack of regulations, so you never know what you're getting in an 'herbal suppliment') is that for many conditions, they have yet to locate a plant that sufficiently treats it.

I would love to take a tea every morning instead of my lovely pills, but I have not found any kind of tea that does the job. It's a nice thought, though.

Like I said in my post, for some issues you might need to start out on pharmaceuticals, but possibly with a combination of therapist, diet and supplements might eventually be able to go without them. Or maybe not. I'm thankful I don't have to take anything on a continual day-to-day basis where I have to take something else to counter the side effects, and then have to add another med and another one to counter the side effects from each of those.

Hell, I've been allergic to a good portion of the pharmaceuticals I've been prescribed, and I'd just as soon not take any more chances on having a really severe reaction. The last two reactions were severe enough to scare the crap out of me.

[Sequoia]

Like I said in my post, for some issues you might need to start out on pharmaceuticals, but possibly with a combination of therapist, diet and supplements might eventually be able to go without them. Or maybe not. I'm thankful I don't have to take anything on a continual day-to-day basis where I have to take something else to counter the side effects, and then have to add another med and another one to counter the side effects from each of those.

I'm fortunate that when I have side effects, my doctors discontinued the medication. That prescription-for-prescription business sounds fishy to me.


Hell, I've been allergic to a good portion of the pharmaceuticals I've been prescribed, and I'd just as soon not take any more chances on having a really severe reaction. The last two reactions were severe enough to scare the crap out of me.

:hugz: I'm sorry! That would scare me too.

[Lunacie]

My ex SIL has Parkinson's and is going broke from all the prescriptions he has to buy. It started out with one med for the Parkinson's and now he has at least 3 for the side effects. I've seen it with almost everyone in my family at some point, just piling on the prescriptions. GAK.

Fortunately I realized what was happening when my tongue and throat started to swell and a took a Benedryl immediately and then called the doctor's office - where the nurse argued with me about the reaction being caused by the medication! Bitch! If I hadn't realized that it was an allergy and had continued to take the medication, I could have died as I was living alone at least 15 minutes from an ambulance getting to me... if I had been able to make the call and talk with my tongue and throat swollen.

[Sequoia]

My ex SIL has Parkinson's and is going broke from all the prescriptions he has to buy. It started out with one med for the Parkinson's and now he has at least 3 for the side effects. I've seen it with almost everyone in my family at some point, just piling on the prescriptions. GAK.

Ewwie, I think I've heard about that with Parkinson's medications. I'm so sorry that it's like that.


Fortunately I realized what was happening when my tongue and throat started to swell and a took a Benedryl immediately and then called the doctor's office - where the nurse argued with me about the reaction being caused by the medication! Bitch! If I hadn't realized that it was an allergy and had continued to take the medication, I could have died as I was living alone at least 15 minutes from an ambulance getting to me... if I had been able to make the call and talk with my tongue and throat swollen.

Dude, the medical establishment in Kansas sucks ass. I've never had a doctor/nurse argue with me about an allergic reaction before. Here they tell you to get thine butt to an ER!

[Philosophia]

I take Zoloft. I need to have it daily to stabilize my moods and allow me to go through the day with minimal anxiety (which is still higher than normal people). Before I went on Zoloft, I tried nearly every single herbal supplement I could find that supposedly was meant to help me. None of them worked (a couple even made me worse). I've also tried dietary changes with no success.

So far Zoloft, combined with therapy) is the only thing that has had some success.

[Lunacie]

Ewwie, I think I've heard about that with Parkinson's medications. I'm so sorry that it's like that.



Dude, the medical establishment in Kansas sucks ass. I've never had a doctor/nurse argue with me about an allergic reaction before. Here they tell you to get thine butt to an ER!

No kidding! I couldn't believe it either. There was another doctor filling out paperwork at the station where the nurse was talking to me on the phone and when he realized why I had called he told her to go and get my doctor immediately. My doctor didn't really see why I thought it was such a big deal either though. I found a new doctor after that.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

Great post. mental illness is real. Trust me, I'm glad that medication for my condition exists... or I wouldn't be here.

Many of us know because we've been there. Prosac always did the trick for my depressions.

[blackroseivy]

I'm absolutely 100% in agreement with all of you who say that the meds are lifesavers for many of us. Let us take the medication, as it is a free country & it's MY body - if there is anyone out there who takes the view that it should be banned, or whatnot!

[Lunacie]

I'm absolutely 100% in agreement with all of you who say that the meds are lifesavers for many of us. Let us take the medication, as it is a free country & it's MY body - if there is anyone out there who takes the view that it should be banned, or whatnot!

Whoa... who said that meds should be banned? Or has given anyone here any grief for needing to take them? They aren't my first choice and I've explained why I feel that way, but I understand that some people really need them.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

I understand that some people really need them.

I would say it as 'many conditions require the medications for correct and effective treatment,' but that's only because that is exactly how it has occurred for the many I have known with the conditions that required these medications.

[Simply Puzzled]

Yeah, tell that to my psychosis and paranoia. Without those "scam artists", I would be living in an institution terrified to leave my own padded little cell.

Maybe YOU don't need it, but some of us do. Mental illness is a real medical condition.

I think that is an over-reaction to what he said, which is a very valid point. For example, look at Restless Leg Syndrome. The medical establishment has convinced tons of people (the sales of the drug are staggering) that they suffer from a relatively rare condition. Now every time someone's legs fall asleep they think they need a drug for it. Or how about ADD/ADHD. It is a real condition, but the sad truth is that the drugs to treat it are more and more being used to "treat" the normal behaviors of kids so that they behave like the children bouncing balls in "A Wrinkle in Time." Many feminists have concerns about the way contraceptives are being used for alternative reasons that amount to the medicalization of a very natural and normal female bodily function, often with adverse side effects. Then there is the prescriptions for vitamin C tablets because someone can't be bothered to eat an orange or kiwi occasionally. I could go on, but I think you get my point: it's not that drugs are bad, it's that the medical establishment over-uses them.

[Lunacie]

I would say it as 'many conditions require the medications for correct and effective treatment.'

And I think doctors in this country (USA) aren't practicing real medicine anymore, they are simply writing prescription after prescription. Have you EVER left the doctor's office without a prescription in your hand (whether new or refill)? Once I refused to try an antidepressant and the doctor shoved some samples into my purse. I took them out and left them there, and found a new doctor.

By the time he finally prescribed the anti-depressant I had dealt with my issues and was feeling pretty good. I was actually there to see him that day because of my peri-menopause symptoms and he refused to do a blood test to see if I was actually peri-menopausal, he claimed the symptoms were caused by depression. What an idiot.

Again I say, some people really need to take meds to help them cope with mental disorders, but in general doctors are much to quick to write a prescription instead of talking to their patients and trying other things - sometimes instead of a prescription, sometimes in addition to a prescription - but always they want to write a prescription.

[Lunacie]

I think that is an over-reaction to what he said, which is a very valid point. For example, look at Restless Leg Syndrome. The medical establishment has convinced tons of people (the sales of the drug are staggering) that they suffer from a relatively rare condition. Now every time someone's legs fall asleep they think they need a drug for it. Or how about ADD/ADHD. It is a real condition, but the sad truth is that the drugs to treat it are more and more being used to "treat" the normal behaviors of kids so that they behave like the children bouncing balls in "A Wrinkle in Time." Many feminists have concerns about the way contraceptives are being used for alternative reasons that amount to the medicalization of a very natural and normal female bodily function, often with adverse side effects. Then there is the prescriptions for vitamin C tablets because someone can't be bothered to eat an orange or kiwi occasionally. I could go on, but I think you get my point: it's not that drugs are bad, it's that the medical establishment over-uses them.


Quoted for Truth :thumbsup:

[SweetIsTheTruth]

I could go on, but I think you get my point: it's not that drugs are bad, it's that the medical establishment over-uses them.

There is much validity here. However, we do understand the causes of manic depression. We know EXACTLY how to treat it from a medical standpoint based on scientific data. We are not over using or over prescribing drugs that are prescribed to a bipolar. We know depression is caused by low serotonin levels in the brain. We know EXACTLY how to treat it from a medical standpoint based on scientific data. We are not overusing or over prescribing SSRIs when given to someone with depression. Sure, there may be doctors out there prescribing these drugs for other uses. Their may even be doctors out their prescribing these drugs for no reason. That doesn't change the fact that for many mental illnesses, the symptoms and medications used to treat them, are based on scientific facts that we do understand. In these cases, it's no different than giving someone blood pressure medication to treat high blood pressure. Yet, the blood pressure medication isn't questioned, but for some reason, the bipolar or depression medications are. It appears to be a double standard. That's all.

This is just a couple of examples, which aren't like restless leg syndrome, or some of the other issues you raised at all.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

And I think doctors in this country (USA) aren't practicing real medicine anymore, they are simply writing prescription after prescription.

I would suggest you try a different doctor if you have one pushing prescriptions on you without reason. Actually, once you find your new doctor, I would next suggest you might turn the pill pusher into the AMA for violating his oath.



Have you EVER left the doctor's office without a prescription in your hand (whether new or refill)?

Not personally, but I know a man who did. He goes to the doctor who tells him his blood pressure is high and suggests a medication. The guy tells the doctor he will change his diet and exercise and skip the prescription. The doctor said fine. I will need to see you in two months to check your blood pressure. My friend did what he said. He went back two months later and his blood pressure is normal.

But you see, it is the responsibility of the PATIENT to take the steps necessary to avoid the medications. How many people do you know that would actually do this? Not many, so the doctors have no choice but to write a prescription for those who refuse to change their diets and lose the weight.



I took them out and left them there, and found a new doctor.

That's exactly it! If you don't agree with what the doctor suggests should happen to YOUR body, and the doctor isn't willing to discuss other options, that means you NEED to find another doctor. I have done the same myself a couple of different times. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the drugs. It means the doctor isn't willing to listen to you as the patient.

[Lunacie]

There are actually plenty of other ways of treating high blood pressure, and if a prescription is necessary often a simple diauretic is all that's needed. We are waaaay overmedicated as a country, which grew out of discovering that some meds really are life-savers for some people.

[Lunacie]

I would suggest you try a different doctor if you have one pushing prescriptions on you without reason. Actually, once you find your new doctor, I would next suggest you might turn the pill pusher into the AMA for violating his oath.


I did walk out of his office, never to return, as I said in that same post.

I did not turn him in but his wife shot and killed him about a year later for cheating with his nurse. Problem solved.



Not personally, but I know a man who did. He goes to the doctor who tells him his blood pressure is high and suggests a medication. The guy tells the doctor he will change his diet and exercise and skip the prescription. The doctor said fine. I will need to see you in two months to check your blood pressure. My friend did what he said. He went back two months later and his blood pressure is normal.

That's good to hear, but unfortunately I think that doctor is one of a much too small minority.



That's exactly it! If you don't agree with what the doctor suggests should happen to YOUR body, and the doctor isn't willing to discuss other options, that means you NEED to find another doctor. I have done the same myself a couple of different times. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the drugs. It means the doctor isn't willing to listen to you as the patient.

Yep, I've left three doctors in the last 15 years, all of them because I could tell they weren't really listening to me and respecting me as a human being instead of just one more patient to be seen and medicated. The one I've been seeing for the last 3 years isn't much better, only I don't have health insurance now and can't afford to be as picky. But if I feel like he isn't listening to me I will get up and stand in front of the door to the exam room until I believe he has really heard me and thought about what I'm saying. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who don't have the self-esteem to do that.

[Sequoia]

And I'd like to point out that restless leg syndrome actually exists too. People who actually have this condition really suffer with it.

Yes, drugs are over-marketed, but this shouldn't cheapen the actual conditions.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

I did not turn him in but his wife shot and killed him about a year later for cheating with his nurse. Problem solved.

YOUZA! Now that's a story!



That's good to hear, but unfortunately I think that doctor is one of a much too small minority.

I don't know that doctor. I only know the guy. I have dealt with doctors like that before. Years ago, this one told me I would need to have a certain type of surgery. I was self-insured. I carried high deductibles, from 2-5k, so paid my costs out of pocket. So I told the doc, I don't have 5 grand for surgery. I asked him what else we could do. So he told me of this other way, that would take time and require repeated treatments, but would costs 40 bucks a pop. BINGO! Problem solved, although it took 15 months of regular visits. These types of experiences have been common for me with doctors, but I do think it's different when you are paying them out of pocket. It cost less than surgery and allowed me to pay along and along, rather than a lump sum up front.



Yep, I've left three doctors in the last 15 years, all of them because I could tell they weren't really listening to me and respecting me as a human being instead of just one more patient to be seen and medicated.

You and I are running about neck and neck then. I have left two in the past 15 years, but not because I felt they were trying to over medicate me. The first one I needed to get a test. He tried to sell me another test that I didn't need. We argued about that because he had it in his mind he was going to give me this test and charge me for it. Well that didn't happen. That put me off this doctor, but it was more than that. I could never describe it to you. You just know. His staff was like the Stepford Wives for one thing. They were the borg. Two years later he was indicted for some type of widescale fraud. It didn't affect me because I never went back.

The other one did something similar. I am exactly like you in this resepect and I LOVE seeing people take charge of their health care. The way I say it is, you are paying them, which makes them your employee. Some doctors don't see it that way. They do want to tell you what your treatment will be without discussion. If it effects my body, I will have a say. I advise everyone to do the same as well.



Unfortunately there are a lot of people who don't have the self-esteem to do that.

Exactly! The doctors are given so much respect in this society, as they should be. Anyone who spends that much time in school deserves respect, no doubt. At the same time, it is our bodies, so we do have a say in what is to occur. Unfortunately, many do not believe they have a right to question a doctor's decisions or recommended procedures. I find that to be unfortunate.

But when you find a good one, oh what a treasure they are!

[Lunacie]

The only problem I see with that (apart from the lack of regulations, so you never know what you're getting in an 'herbal suppliment') is that for many conditions, they have yet to locate a plant that sufficiently treats it.

I would love to take a tea every morning instead of my lovely pills, but I have not found any kind of tea that does the job. It's a nice thought, though.

Sorry, missed this before, and wanted to note that if anyone had spent as much time and money on research into natural supplements as they have on distilling just the main ingredient from nature and then replicating it chemically... there would be better regulation and effective natural treatments for more health problems by now.

[Lunacie]

YOUZA! Now that's a story!
YEP!



I don't know that doctor. I only know the guy. I have dealt with doctors like that before. Years ago, this one told me I would need to have a certain type of surgery. I was self-insured. I carried high deductibles, from 2-5k, so paid my costs out of pocket. So I told the doc, I don't have 5 grand for surgery. I asked him what else we could do. So he told me of this other way, that would take time and require repeated treatments, but would costs 40 bucks a pop. BINGO! Problem solved, although it took 15 months of regular visits. These types of experiences have been common for me with doctors, but I do think it's different when you are paying them out of pocket. It cost less than surgery and allowed me to pay along and along, rather than a lump sum up front.


And in some cases it is because the patient wants an instant "cure" or isn't willing to make lifestyle changes. Perhaps doctors became used to that kind of patient and began assuming that all patients were that way. Funny, I thought doctors were supposed to be smarter than that. Some do seem to realize that we need individual care instead of cookie cutter care where they throw the same prescription at everyone with certain symptoms. Such as that doctor assuming that I couldn't be in peri-menopause because I was only 40 and "most women" don't begin peri-menopause until they're almost 50 - according to him. Never mind that in my family everyone started the change much younger than 50.



You and I are running about neck and neck then. I have left two in the past 15 years, but not because I felt they were trying to over medicate me. The first one I needed to get a test. He tried to sell me another test that I didn't need. We argued about that because he had it in his mind he was going to give me this test and charge me for it. Well that didn't happen. That put me off this doctor, but it was more than that. I could never describe it to you. You just know. His staff was like the Stepford Wives for one thing. They were the borg. Two years later he was indicted for some type of widescale fraud. It didn't affect me because I never went back.


Amazing how some doctors will argue and insist they know best when they aren't really listening to us, eh? We're currently dealing with a situation where our family doc doesn't believe that my granddaughter probably has Celiac Sprue Disease, he thinks it's all "behaviorial issues". Yeah, she hasn't had more than a handful of solid stools in her whole life and she's almost six... but somehow she is able to control her digestive tract well enough to continually have what amounts to diahreah?! And in order to get the school to feed her a gluten free diet we need to have a form signed by the doctor. GAK.



The other one did something similar. I am exactly like you in this resepect and I LOVE seeing people take charge of their health care. The way I say it is, you are paying them, which makes them your employee. Some doctors don't see it that way. They do want to tell you what your treatment will be without discussion. If it effects my body, I will have a say. I advise everyone to do the same as well.


I totally agree. Medical care needs to be a partnership between the doctor and the patient. The doctor may know more about medicine, but I know more about my body, how it feels and how it reacts. When I say I'm having an allergic reaction I don't need someone telling me that it can't possibly be related to the drug I started taking 2 weeks ago because every reaction they've seen came sooner than that.



Exactly! The doctors are given so much respect in this society, as they should be. Anyone who spends that much time in school deserves respect, no doubt. At the same time, it is our bodies, so we do have a say in what is to occur. Unfortunately, many do not believe they have a right to question a doctor's decisions or recommended procedures. I find that to be unfortunate.

But when you find a good one, oh what a treasure they are!

Have you found a good one, a real treasure? I'm still looking. Maybe I should move to your area? ;)

[willa]

Lunacie, I totally understand what you're saying. I cannot tell you how many times I've ended up in the emergency room because I've been told a particular medication is "safe" only to end up arguing with the er doctor as to whether or not it's a drug reaction. I even have severe adverse reactions to the primary drugs given in emergency situations for anaphylaxis. Unfortunately, doctors are programmed with the rest of us that a pill is an instant fix. Even when that instant fix can create a life threatening situation, they still tend to prescribe drugs as the first course of action instead of looking at the alternatives. It hasn't been easy but I've had to learn to deal with a couple of chronic conditions with lifestyle & dietary changes, herbs, supplements, meditation, taichi, etc. I'm not saying that everyone should flush their medications & go the route I did, that would be totally stupid. Actually, I would say just the opposite. If medication is the reason you're still here, healthy & functioning, please continue to take them. I took the route I did out of necessity. What I am trying to say is just as some of you feel you would not be here if it weren't for your medication, I would not be here if I did take medications & have my own frustrations because I'm constantly told "here, just take this" knowing if I do, I'm putting my life at risk.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

Have you found a good one, a real treasure? I'm still looking. Maybe I should move to your area? ;)

He's two hours from here. He is retired actually, but runs a no insurance health clinic. I think he just raised his rates from $35-$40. Old as dirt with all his hair, which he dies black. COOL OLD MAN! He looks like Gomez Addams, from the original TV show, not the movie. He sat me down and told me about all of the scientific studies on cranberry juice and discussed its anti-bacterial or antibiotic effects, whichever the case may be. This was after I tested clean because I had treated myself with it for a couple of weeks before I saw him. He told me I cured myself with it and how it worked! Where can you get all that for $35 (at the time)? Hell I'd gladly pay $70 or more for that!

He's a trip. I wish all doctors were like this. He refers you out to specialists if he can't treat you in his clinic and refuses to accept payment if he refers you!

[SweetIsTheTruth]

As far as psychiatric medications, I NEVER went to a regular phsysician for that. I would only see psychiatrists, or be referred to one by a psychologist. I wouldn't dream of seeing a regular physician for psychiatric medications. I much prefer someone who knows the effects of these medications intimately, from writing hundreds of prescriptions a year for numerous clients. This was years ago, of course.

I had a psychiatrist as a client in a business years ago. We traded out services. He would write prescriptions and I would provide my services in exchange. It didn't happen often, because I was only on Prosac on 4 separate occasions for no more than 3-4 months. I decided when I went on it. I decided when I went off of it, but then I knew the desired effect of increased serotonin levels would hit me within 3-4 months time. Prosac almost comlpletely kills the sex drive, so I never wanted to be on it for long.

Overall, I would have to say I have found the absolute best doctors. I don't know how I did it. Just luck I guess.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

Unfortunately, doctors are programmed with the rest of us that a pill is an instant fix.

I am glad they are. If I get strep throat, I want it fixed NOW, but that's just me.



I'm not saying that everyone should flush their medications & go the route I did, that would be totally stupid.

I agree. Bipolars are at risk of suicide at 5 times the rate of societal norms. We do not need to tell them to throw their medicine away.



I would not be here if I did take medications & have my own frustrations because I'm constantly told "here, just take this" knowing if I do, I'm putting my life at risk.

That's probably one difference. Trust me, you would not believe the massive number of chemicals that I have run through my body. Back in the day, hitting the clubs at 11 PM on Saturday night and walking out at 11 AM on Sunday morning, drinking all night long and never drinking the same liquor twice, and never puking and never getting sick. And I am not talking about just legal chemicals either. I am talking about stuff from the street, where you have no clue AT ALL what's in it. By all rights I should have been dead by 30. It is a miracle my liver functions at all, given the ridiculous amounts of known and uknown toxins processed. And I am not talking about one illegal chemical at a time. I am talking combinations of two or three, in double doses of each, over and over again, over a period of years.

Yet, I never had a bad reaction. I never got sick. I never threw up, not even on chemicals that made everybody else throw up. I get two colds a year, but knock those out with vitamin C, etc and so on. I just don't have bad reactions to drugs of any kind. I never have, no matter the quantities consumed or the numbers of them mixed.

I don't do them anymore though. They bore me.

[Sequoia]

To be honest, ALL medications are "natural", in other words they are created from molecules that you and I and that tree over there are all created from. The difference is that it's done in a lab as opposed to in the soil or in our bodies.

Natural remedies are all well and good, but they simply cannot replace modern medicine, otherwise people would have been living forever long before our time.

Just because a particular part of a plant has been refined down to the active molecule doesn't mean it's been somehow vilified. For all that we know, the rest of the plant could be toxic (try taking some foxglove for your heart, and good luck on getting the dosage right), or perhaps difficult to regulate.

I mean, you may have a plant with a good active molecule in it, but the plant is a natural thing - it varies by nature, depending on how it grew, where it grew, what it was exposed to, the nature of the soil, the animals in the area, etc etc. This all leads to an unreliable level of 'medication' inside the plant. Wheras when synthesized in a lab, you are getting rid of this game of roulette, and possibly creating a product that people are less likely to be allergic to.

Natural remedies don't always cut it. My example? I'm ridiculously allergic to Ecaenacia (sp?). It makes me puke my guts out. But I know that many people swear by it. Should I angrily shake my fist at Mother Nature, blaming her for creating a product that I was allergic to? Or is it just the way things are, that I happen to be allergic to something?

You can't blame somebody because you are allergic. You may as well scream at the cat while you sneeze and wipe your eyes. It's not going to change, fix, or remedy the situation any. Just avoid the cat. It's that simple.

[Simply Puzzled]

We know depression is caused by low serotonin levels in the brain. We know EXACTLY how to treat it from a medical standpoint based on scientific data. We are not overusing or over prescribing SSRIs when given to someone with depression.

[...]

This is just a couple of examples, which aren't like restless leg syndrome, or some of the other issues you raised at all.

This is something I take extreme exception to. Do you know what it's like to take an anti-depressant? Some people are lucky enough to find on the first try, but most aren't. Most people with severe depression spend years and years find the right combination of drugs and dosage to treat it. Then they spend the rest of their life tweaking it as their body gains resistance, new formulations come out, etc. It's not an exact science at all.

Did you know that a lot of SSRIs have actually been shown to increase depression in many people? Some did with me. And most are prescribed by a general practitioner that you might see once every few months. Do you have any idea how easy it is to go into a doctor's office and walk away with a script for Wellbutrin or Effexor. You just tell the doctor you are depressed, want some, and let them know you aren't planning on killing yourself. They'll probably give you a one or two month supply before even needing to see you again. After that, you'll probably get at least a 6 month supply, which you can have the pharmacy call in a refill for when it runs out.

Anti-depressants are way over prescribed. They are given out by doctors that aren't qualified to treat depression so they hand over pills to shut you up. There have been congressional investigations into suicides caused by these sorts of drugs that were just dispensed like this that increased the risk of suicide but weren't properly monitored. It's sad really.

A G.P. will probably recommend seeing a therapist, but they probably can't even refer you to a good one. Nevertheless, a good therapist has been shown to be just as effective as anti-depressants. Or look at cognitive behavioral therapy. In addition to seeing a therapist for it, you can go through a therapy program at home on the freaking internet that has been shown to be almost as effective as therapy. How many doctors will tell you about it though? How many will give you the web address so you can treat your depression in a scientifically proven way at home for free (the website is MoodGym developed by Centre for Mental Health Research at the Australian National University btw)? Maybe one in a hundred?

So don't condescend to tell me that this is some sort of exact science in which x is treated with y. It's not. It sucks. Medicating depression is hard and expensive and stressful. Often times the costs far outweigh any benefits. And at the same time, the medical community downplays other just as effective options because after all, it's easier for everyone involved if you hand over that script.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

Do you know what it's like to take an anti-depressant?

To which do you refer? MAOIs or SSRIs Wellbutrin, Buspar - Take your pic. I will discuss my experiences with any you prefer.



Some people are lucky enough to find on the first try, but most aren't.

Which doesn't mean we throw out the entire medical/pharmacology establishment/industries. I often have to try on several pairs of shoes or pants before I find what fits well that I like. What's your point?



Most people with severe depression spend years and years find the right combination of drugs and dosage to treat it.

Do you have statistics that prove 'most' spend 'years and years?' I don't have statistics to prove 'most' do not spend 'years and years,' but I have known many people throughout my life who have needed these drugs and have not heard of these types of horror stories. (Yeah I know anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence.)



It's not an exact science at all.

It doesn't need to be an exact science to bring benefit. Here's some examples. I took Paxil for 3 days. Byt the third day, I was a nervous wreck, couldn't sleep and I was pacing the floors all night. Not good. I quit the Paxil after 3 days, not 'years and years' mind you, and started Prosac. BINGO! Problem solved.

Likewise, my friend took Prosac. By the third day, she was a nervous wreck, couldn't sleep and she was pacing the floors all night. She quit the Prosac and started on Paxil. BINGO problem solved. She responds very well to Paxil. I respond very well to Prosac. Well duh! We are two different people with two completely different body chemistries and probably brain chemistries too. It's no different than one preferring Hondas and another preferring Chryslers.



Did you know that a lot of SSRIs have actually been shown to increase depression in many people?

And at what percentages of the population would that be? 0.0008% or maybe 4%? Did you know some are allergic to penicillin? Do we then take penicillin off the market because a very small percentage of the population will have issues with it? No we do not. It benefits FAR TOO MANY people to remove such a substance from the market.



And most are prescribed by a general practitioner that you might see once every few months.

Well I won't go there. Mine were always prescribed by psychiatrists, but that's my preference.



Do you have any idea how easy it is to go into a doctor's office and walk away with a script for Wellbutrin or Effexor.

Probably just as easy for me to walk out with a prescription for Paxil, which really doesn't work too well for me. If I don't know my own reactions with Paxil and a doctor prescribes it to me, am I supposed to get mad at her because she isn't psychic enough to GUESS I won't respond well to Paxil? That sounds VERY unreasonable to me. Sorry, but doctors aren't educated to know how every individual drug might react with every individual person, because such education does not exist.



You just tell the doctor you are depressed, want some, and let them know you aren't planning on killing yourself. They'll probably give you a one or two month supply before even needing to see you again. After that, you'll probably get at least a 6 month supply, which you can have the pharmacy call in a refill for when it runs out.

And what's the harm in that? If it happens to me and I were prescribed Paxil because I didn't know how badly it effects me, I call the doctor in three days or reschedule an appointment to change the medication. It's not the doctor's fault they have no clue how every individual medication might effect every individual in the country.



Anti-depressants are way over prescribed.

I am not saying they aren't. What I am saying is, without hard evidence of the percentages of unnecessary prescriptions, I certainly am not going to worry about it. If 5% of prescriptions are unnecessary, that's not reason for me to worry about it, necessarily. If 80% of prescriptions are prescribed unnecessarily, I may not necessarily worry about that either. Hypochondriacs do exist, for example, and would have to impact the percentages of over-prescribed or unnecessary prescriptions.



They are given out by doctors that aren't qualified to treat depression so they hand over pills to shut you up.

I don't go to general practitioners for psyciatric medications, but that's just me. If a patient is having a problem however, and they are depressed, I am frankly glad a general practitioner can offer them something to help their depression. This is a societal benefit, in my eyes.



There have been congressional investigations into suicides caused by these sorts of drugs that were just dispensed like this that increased the risk of suicide but weren't properly monitored. It's sad really.


Cars and planes kill people in accidents. It's sad really. Congressional investigations don't necessarily prove anything. I remember in the early days when Prosac was released. All kinds of claims were made it could increase risk of suicide in certain people and in fact, it does. Here's some numbers:

"Children who take the anti-depressant Prozac are at greater risk of attempting suicide, say US experts.

Other similar drugs are considered too dangerous because previous studies have linked them to an increase in suicidal tendencies.

He said: "I think we now all believe there is an increase in suicidal thinking and action that is consistent across all the drugs."

On average, the analysis, carried out by experts at Columbia University, New York, found anti-depressants taken by children will cause an extra 2% to 3% to have increased suicidal thoughts.

Relative risks of suicidal behavior were highest among young people taking Luvox, Effexor and Paxil and lower - but still heightened - among those taking Celexa, Zoloft and Prozac.

However, the FDA also heard that for many children the benefits of taking the drugs may outweigh the risks.

"However, when people with depression are left untreated, 15 percent will actually commit suicide.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3656110.stm)

WOW! If untreated, 15% of depressed commit suicide. If treated with these drugs, only 2-3% commit suicide. That sounds like an improvement in the suicide rate to me, DUE SOLELY TO THE USE OF THESE DRUGS!



Nevertheless, a good therapist has been shown to be just as effective as anti-depressants.

Then why do 15% of the depressed who aren't treated medically commit suicide, while only 2-3% of those who DO get medicallly treated for it commit suicide?



How many will give you the web address so you can treat your depression in a scientifically proven way at home for free (the website is MoodGym developed by Centre for Mental Health Research at the Australian National University btw)?

If I were a doctor I certainly wouldn't, because you might be one of those 15% who commit suicide without medication and then your family might sue me.



So don't condescend to tell me that this is some sort of exact science in which x is treated with y.

Hmm, 15% without drugs commit suicide. 2-3% with drugs commit suicide. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me.

Besides, since when do FACTS constitute being condescending?

"Licinio's team studied federal data to show the US suicide rate held steady for 15 years prior to the introduction of Prozac in 1988, then dropped steadily over 14 years as sales of the antidepressant rose. The research team found the strongest effect among women.

Mathematical modeling of probable suicide rates from 1988 to 2002, based on pre-1988 data, suggests 33,600 fewer people have committed suicide since Prozac hit the market, Licinio said.

The actual suicide rates fluctuated between 12.2 and 13.7 suicides per 100,000 people until 1988, and then gradually fell to the lowest 10.4 per 100,000 in 2000, Licinio's team reported. "

Link (http://ffxcam.fairfax.com.au/event.ng/Type=click&FlightID=94667&AdID=172646&TargetID=20929&Values=373&Redirect=http://fdimages.fairfax.com.au/crtvs/201206_Esanda_POP.html)

Even if these medications ARE over-prescribed, our society still benefits, due the the resulting drop in the suicide rates which have occurred since the day these medications were introduced.



Medicating depression is hard and expensive and stressful.

And for the 15% who don't get the drugs, suicide is so easy.

[wolfjan1]

Well, there is a section in EVERY group that has it's delusional idiots. Our current administration has it's own poster boy for that, and they are right behind him.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

To be honest, ALL medications are "natural", in other words they are created from molecules that you and I and that tree over there are all created from.

You hit the nail on the head. See, this is what I don't get. Why is it that whatever humans create is labelled 'unnatural?' If a bird builds a nest, we call that 'natural.' If a contractor builds a house, we call that 'unnatural.' Yet, humans are part of the animal kingdom. Therefore, our creations are just as natural as what an animal creates.

So, first of all, anyone who claims man's creations aren't 'natural,' are really just denying the fact that humans are part of the animal kingdom. Man builds dams, just like beavers do. Both dams are natural, whether built by man or beaver, since both man and beaver are part of the animal kingdom.

Secondly, although it's true we find things in nature useful, like aspirin deriving from white willow bark, oftentimes the products nature creates simply don't work. One example is St. John's Wort, which is claimed to work as an antidepressant like Prosac, but look at this study;

"An extract of the herb St. John's wort was no more effective for treating major depression of moderate severity than placebo, according to research published in the April 10 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association."

Link (http://nccam.nih.gov/news/2002/stjohnswort/pressrelease.htm)


So, just because some product is 'natural' (mistakenly defined as not made by humans), does not mean it will actually work to solve or cure anything. Really, if anyone tells you to take St. John's Wort for depression, you might as well just take a sugar pill instead, since they both work the same, but the sugar pill will be cheaper.

[Lunacie]

Just to be perfectly clear, I did not write that pharmaceutical medications are "unnatural". I said that they have (often been) replicated chemically, which is not "natural" in the sense I was using here.

There are more antynoms for natural than just "unnatural" such as:
artificial (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/artificial), processed (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/processed), refined (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/refined)

I don't agree that processing and refining things, or making artificial substitutes is always such a great thing.

[miami-gurl]

woah ah uh yaja ive gone bananas!:awilly:

[Tullip Troll]

There are a lots of people in church who suffer from this as well.

However I think Pagans attract empaths and similar, most of us can't seperate our feelings from feelings we pick up.

Plus as a manic Bi Polar person myself, I left the church in search of better self exceptance so that I would not suffer as much.

[plumedsnake]

You hit the nail on the head. See, this is what I don't get. Why is it that whatever humans create is labelled 'unnatural?' If a bird builds a nest, we call that 'natural.' If a contractor builds a house, we call that 'unnatural.' Yet, humans are part of the animal kingdom. Therefore, our creations are just as natural as what an animal creates.

May I suggest it is because the actual meaning of the word natural as used from time immemorial is opposed to the word Art, which is something that is created by man's wiles. I think context is so important here and we are being confused by a change in context that has distorted our understanding of the word. The context in which the word was originally used was based on a world view that sees Man as partaking in nature as well as, in another aspect, transcending nature. Transcending nature in the sense that 'God' transcends nature. Once the world view changes and man is no longer considered divine, or transcendent (in part) then the actual meaning and use of the word Nature (as opposed to art) becomes totally redundant. Of course whether man/woman is transcendent and therefore capable of Art/freeWill/Choice is unprovable and will remain an unresolved question forever.

The word nature also refers to a quality, or virtue of a thing. Like it is the nature of a Dog to bark and of a scorpion to sting. If a dog were to start quacking surely we would all concur that this were unnatural. So nature is that which plays a certain function and sticks with it. If through Art, or Design, or Sheer madness, if you will, a man were to ingest a quantity of 'Fox ---' and stop his heart then that was unnatural nourishment. Eating apples is natural. Eating turd is not.




So, first of all, anyone who claims man's creations aren't 'natural,' are really just denying the fact that humans are part of the animal kingdom. Man builds dams, just like beavers do. Both dams are natural, whether built by man or beaver, since both man and beaver are part of the animal kingdom.

This is the whole point in a nutshell. Is man just a part of the animal kingdom? Could a beaver contrive to build a dam, or not build a dam. Or does it find that it can't help building dams cos that's just it's nature. You see human dams are a contrivance. Most of human culture is a contrivance, quite removed from our nature. Having sex is the nature of most all animals. Human contrivance to suppress the sexual urge in order to achieve a higher spiritual state (I dunno, I've heard that's a goal), or wait till I've got my degree and a good job, is ART not NATURE. Nature is the natural, Art is the ARTificial. culture /nurture is ART and humans are like that.





Really, if anyone tells you to take St. John's Wort for depression, you might as well just take a sugar pill instead, since they both work the same, but the sugar pill will be cheaper.

Actually St. John's Wort will work for some and not work for others because in the practice of traditional medicines we don't have a one size fits all approach. It all depends on the constitution of the patient. We find that certain people are by nature inclined to certain temperaments and humours and subsequently we prescribe medicines on the basis of that. if you are phlegmatic and you have a cold I would prescribe a different course than that from someone who was Sanguine even if they seemed to have exactly the same cold. One must not mix diverse natures.

[plumedsnake]

There are more antynoms for natural than just "unnatural" such as:
artificial (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/artificial), processed (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/processed), refined (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/refined)

I think that there is a connotation that nature is good and unnatural is bad that has run through all the threads about nature on this forum that is just misguided. It's important to understand the context in which nature is being used and therefore what is being meant by Nature and what is the antonym, because people have gone as far as to actually say that unnatural doesn't exist and everything is nature.




I don't agree that processing and refining things, or making artificial substitutes is always such a great thing.

True, but it is not always such a bad thing either.

[Lunacie]

<snipped>

Actually St. John's Wort will work for some and not work for others because in the practice of traditional medicines we don't have a one size fits all approach. It all depends on the constitution of the patient. We find that certain people are by nature inclined to certain temperaments and humours and subsequently we prescribe medicines on the basis of that. if you are phlegmatic and you have a cold I would prescribe a different course than that from someone who was Sanguine even if they seemed to have exactly the same cold. One must not mix diverse natures.

Yes, this ties in with what I was thinking when I woke up in the night to go potty. That even though pharmaceuticals have been standardized and regulated where natural supplements have not, people are still very diverse. The dosage of pharmaceuticals can vary greatly from person to person, and different drugs within a category may work for one person but not for another.

I just don't think standardization is as important as the physician (or herbalist) being good at listening to a patient and evaluating their condition ... rather than saying "Oh you're depressed, here's a prescription (or samples) of Prozac" to everyone who presents with symptoms of depression. Many who are depressed are feeling that way because they haven't dealt with issues from their past, or don't feel like they can cope with issues in their life at present, or because there is an underlying condition that hasn't been addressed yet. Too many doctors go "Here's a pill" and shoo the patient out of the office. Blah.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

which is something that is created by man's wiles.

Aren't man's wiles 'natural?'


Transcending nature in the sense that 'God' transcends nature.

Isn't man's goal to transcend nature 'natural?' The massive number of religions and philosophies would certainly suggest so.



Is man just a part of the animal kingdom?

I say yes, but then, I see ALL of man's behaviors and creations as springing from that animal nature and this includes social conditioning.



You see human dams are a contrivance.

Contrivances produced by a member of the animal kingdom, which makes such contrivances 'natural.'



Most of human culture is a contrivance, quite removed from our nature.

I see the contrivances as precisely part of our nature.



Having sex is the nature of most all animals. Human contrivance to suppress the sexual urge in order to achieve a higher spiritual state (I dunno, I've heard that's a goal), or wait till I've got my degree and a good job, is ART not NATURE.

Well I believe the suppression of the sex urge is quite natural. If we did not suppress the sex urge so that we had time to hunt down or grow food, we would still not be here. That appears quite 'natural' to me.



Nature is the natural, Art is the ARTificial. culture /nurture is ART and humans are like that.

I see no reason to draw such a line of distinction between the two.



Actually St. John's Wort will work for some and not work for others because in the practice of traditional medicines we don't have a one size fits all approach.

Actually, if you check the original article, it becomes quite clear St. John's Wort has an effect in certain instances, but not in instances of major or more severe depressions. The problem here is, if one is depresssed, one has no way of knowing whether it is a mild depression or severe, which means one has no way of knowing whether St. John's Wort will help them or not. Having been depressed at 4 times in my life, I can tell you without a doubt, I won't take the risk of wasting my time with a 'natural' plant that may or may not help me, depending on how severe my depression is. I know with Prosac, the lift of the depression begins instantly. As each day goes by and the medication builds up in the blood stream, there is a marked alteration of the mood for the better. I have NO guarantees such would be the case with St. John's Wort, because I have know way of knowing the severity of my own depressions. If someone else wants to take the chance with St. John's Wort, that's their choice. However, I certainly wouldn't recommend it if a family member of mine was depressed, because I wouldn't want them to commit suicide due to lack of correct, appropriate and effective medication, that drastically lowers the risk of suicide in the depressed.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

The dosage of pharmaceuticals can vary greatly from person to person, and different drugs within a category may work for one person but not for another.

Isn't the same true with respect to natural supplements? Or does one size fit all?



I just don't think standardization is as important as the physician (or herbalist) being good at listening to a patient and evaluating their condition ...

That's an issue with the doctor, not the medications, as has already been discussed.



rather than saying "Oh you're depressed, here's a prescription (or samples) of Prozac" to everyone who presents with symptoms of depression.

In what percentage of doctor visits does this occur? Is it .00001%, .01%, .1%, 1%, 10%, 50%, 90%. You seem so knowledgable in this area, I am really curious to know how often this happens.



Many who are depressed are feeling that way because they haven't dealt with issues from their past, or don't feel like they can cope with issues in their life at present, or because there is an underlying condition that hasn't been addressed yet.

And many suffer from depression for biological conditions, like low levels of serotonin in the brain, which require medication. Additionally, these classes of drugs are also necessary in the treatment of addictions. If an addict stops doing cocaine, their brain chemistry will be ridiculously out of whack, so to speak. In order to prevent extreme reactions from giving up the drug, the brain chemistry MUST be regulated in many, if not all, such situations. These types of situations can hardly be construed as doctors simply pusing pills on someone unnecessarily.



Too many doctors go "Here's a pill" and shoo the patient out of the office. Blah.

At what percentages does this occur?

[Lunacie]

Isn't the same true with respect to natural supplements? Or does one size fit all?

That's precisely the point I was making. Even though pharmaceuticals are standardized, that doesn't mean that they will work just the same for different people... there is no way to standardize that. So saying that having standardized pharmaceuticals is better than having un-standardized natural supplements is something I do not agree with.



That's an issue with the doctor, not the medications, as has already been discussed.


Yep, just tying it all together, eh.



In what percentage of doctor visits does this occur? Is it .00001%, .01%, .1%, 1%, 10%, 50%, 90%. You seem so knowledgable in this area, I am really curious to know how often this happens.

I have not looked up statistics on this. If it's important to you to know, you're welcome to look for yourself. My knowledge is from years of experience (my family's experience with doctors and my own).



And many suffer from depression for biological conditions, like low levels of serotonin in the brain, which require medication. Additionally, these classes of drugs are also necessary in the treatment of addictions. If an addict stops doing cocaine, their brain chemistry will be ridiculously out of whack, so to speak. In order to prevent extreme reactions from giving up the drug, the brain chemistry MUST be regulated in many, if not all, such situations. These types of situations can hardly be construed as doctors simply pusing pills on someone unnecessarily.


That point has already been made as well. I was saying that doctors don't often take the time to ask their patients whether there may be underlying issues, and recommend a therapist or psychologist to help them deal with those issues and relieve the depression so that they don't have to take medications for the rest of their lives.

Although I certainly agree that they may be life savers in the short run, it isn't healthy physically or mentally to use them to cover up issues that could be dealt with through therapy or discussion with a support group.



At what percentages does this occur?

I don't know. If you want to know feel free to search out that information.

[SweetIsTheTruth]

That point has already been made as well. I was saying that doctors don't often take the time to ask their patients whether there may be underlying issues, and recommend a therapist or psychologist to help them deal with those issues and relieve the depression so that they don't have to take medications for the rest of their lives.

If anything, I have to admit I am completely biased in the opposite direction in my views in this, but that's solely due to my experiences. I began psychotherapy at a young age, at a county mental health clinic and then following the first one into her private practice. In those early years, I was referred out to psychiatrists by psychologists when necessary. As a result, these types of medications were prescribed to me by psychiatrists, who by their training and daily work, would have to be far more educated in the use of the drugs, as well as far more knowledgable as to the effects of these drugs on live patients. (The Paxil was never prescribed to me. I was attempting to self medicate via a friend's medication.)

While this was occurring, I was busy building my first business. Somehow, I attracted a HUGE clientele, with a large percentage from the mental health fields. My exposure has therefore been entirely to professionals in the mental health fields, rather than with general practitioners treating depression.



Although I certainly agree that they may be life savers in the short run, it isn't healthy physically or mentally to use them to cover up issues that could be dealt with through therapy or discussion with a support group.

I also believe it is important that psychotherapy at least be suggested to people on these medications. In my case, it was imperative. However, insurance regulations play into this. If insurance won't cover psychotherapy, and it often doesn't or offers limited coverage, a person with limited funds won't have many options, especially if their income makes them ineligible for services at government clinics. In other words, even if a general practitioner makes the recommendation, it doesn't mean the patient will follow through if insurance coverage is limited or nonexistent. Additionally, it's like the old adage which states, ' when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.' If a patient isn't ready for psychotherapy, they won't go regardless, even with insurance coverage. (You won't seek treatment if you lack awareness that you actually have a problem outside of what the medications treat. Any psychologist will tell you this. It's the same with addictions. Until awareness dawns the addiction is a problem, treatment won't be undertaken.) We all know people like this. I would even go so far as to say this is the norm for people with issues, rather than the exception. To me, this is the basis of the problem, not doctor's pushing pills. Some do ignore the advice of doctors and we can't force a person into therapy, barring extreme circumstances.

[plumedsnake]

It seems to me that we haven't just grasped the meaning of the word Natural. This could be due to a change in the context in which it is being used. Nature doesn't mean 'Everything that exists'. Because, of course, then everything would be natural.

But you see, the thing about language and it's lexicons is that every word refers specifically to an aspect of something and serves to distinguish it from everything else. I don't know of any language in the entire world that has a word that just means everything. Even the word 'Everything' is used to make a distinction between the whole and a part, or the whole and nothing. When I say 'take everything', I am specifying that I want you to take everything and not just a couple and leave the rest. Words are specifying things.

Therefore every word implies it's antonym or antithesis. Throughout the history of the use of the word Nature, something specific is being distinguished from something else. To suggest otherwise is itself unnatural and contrary to the use of language. The word nature is used to distinguish certain processes from others. The other is called Art, or the Artificial. Now you could argue that man is incapable of contrivance and therefore the distinction between Art and Nature cannot be made. In that case you should be arguing that there is no such thing as Nature and no such thing as Art, they are a false dichotomy and an erroneous notion. But to say Nature just means everything that exists and everything is natural. That's like getting up unto a podium to declare, 'Everything is Everything'. oh gosh, really? I'd never have guessed. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. What a revelation? You should make a record with lauren Hill.


Aren't man's wiles 'natural?'

No! By defination, No!




Isn't man's goal to transcend nature 'natural?' The massive number of religions and philosophies would certainly suggest so.

Like which religions? Which philosophies?




I say yes, but then, I see ALL of man's behaviors and creations as springing from that animal nature and this includes social conditioning.

And this is where you're wrong.


Contrivances produced by a member of the animal kingdom, which makes such contrivances 'natural.'

I bet you even have an argument for why Black is in fact white, and up is down. Natural and contrived should be by defination diametrically opposed.




Well I believe the suppression of the sex urge is quite natural. If we did not suppress the sex urge so that we had time to hunt down or grow food, we would still not be here. That appears quite 'natural' to me.

Yes hunger, and the desire to satiate it, is natural. It is a matter of what urge is most pressing at any point in time. I personally have little appetite for sex when I'm starving. But then I'm a weirdo.



I see no reason to draw such a line of distinction between the two.

In other words there is no need for the word or the concept Nature.

[Anchoresque]

Some profoundly interesting points were brought up. 'Specially the bird's nest-carpenter's house analogy. I'll think about that.

Been manic-depressive-unmedicated for a good bit of time now. Strongly considering other routes, mainly because my depressed makes driving a near impossibility. The worst part of the syndrome would have to be my inability to stand by myself, the regrets, feeling like I have a different person for each mood.

I just fear loosing my manic states. They're mine! *grabs them*

shrug

Meditation and exercise can make somewhat of a dent in my moods. They feel so set in stone. I remind myself. Wait them out. Make more art.

:spinnysmi

[Tanya]

I have to weigh in here.

1. About 1/3 of the population will at some point be touched by mental illness at some point in their lives
2. Pagans tend to be pretty honest, open, and i think are a bit more willing to talk about mental illness

so... no I don't think we are more or less mentally ill than the rest of the population, but we mmight be more honest about trying to deal with it.