Offending the Elements

[Mithrea]

I read somewhere once (think it was Scott Cunningham but I can't be 100% sure) that it's offensive to the element of fire to blow out a candle. The author suggested that it's better to pinch them out instead.

Okay, huh :huh: ?

If you blow out a candle, you are using another element to put out the fire. You are using air. It seems to me if you pinch it out, you are still just using another element. Your fingers, as a part of your body, seems to me to be earth. How is that better or less "offensive."

What is everyone's thoughts on this in general?

[cherrywind]

Sounds like Scott Cunningham to me!

I agree, the idea seems a little absurd. Why is it offensive to use Air instead of Earth (I agree with your idea that the body is Earth) to extingush a flame? If you pour water on a fire, is that disrespecting Fire as well? What if you pour water upon the Earth? Are you then disrespecting the Earth?

Or, if he's worried about the act of extinguishing it as offending it, then shouldn't it not matter how you do it? I've never understood it myself.

[Mystic Wolf]

I actually heard it differently. Never read it in Scott's books but will ask around since he used to talk to people I know in the Craft today.

Anyway, the way I heard it is this:

If you must extinguish a flame on a candle used for a spell, use a snuffer or pinch it out because if you blow it out, the magic will be blown out as well and the spell could be prematurely ended.

How true that is, I am not sure. I personally use snuffers to extinguish candles if one is a available because it is simply easier for me otherwise, I will blow them out. I know others who never blow out a candle and some who blow out all their candles.

I do know you can offend the elements if you give improper offerings in circle, i.e. cinnamon for earth instead of fire. Have seen it happen.

[cherrywind]

I've never heard of it that way. In that context it makes much more sense, although I've never had that experience. Scott Cunningham (from my memory, I haven't actually read that in a few years, although I do remember him saying it) doesn't actually go into detail, I believe he just simply says that it offends the element.

Personally, I've just always used my fingers or blown to put out a candle and I've never experienced any sort of premature ending of a spell or insulting an element. Has anybody else ever experienced this?

[Mystic Wolf]

A lot of Scott's writings are overly simplified from what he actually knew and practiced. This is because he was trained in several Traditions and didn't want to violate his oaths. In order to do this he had to be vague in places and rework how things were done in others.

[Azure]

I've seen the same statement in any number of publications, including Silver RAvenwolf's (I don't think much of her). All I can really say is, I've never had trouble with a candle I blew out. Ever. Not something that's part of my belief system.

[Zaniah]

It's probably a bit strange, but due to really not knowing what to think of it, if I'm going to blow out a candle instead of snuffing it I out of habit mentally warn it first.
I once heard that snuffing allows the essence of the flame to retreat back into the candle, while blowing it out would 'kill' it. I'm still not sure how much stock to put in that.

Love and Light,
Zaniah

[golddust]

some people think

fire = power
breath= life

in blowing out a candle in an arena where there is high magical energy you are exchanging your life for the sake of power

i dont agree with that

to me

a candle is a candle and ill put it out the easierst way possible

[Mithrea]

Originally posted by Zaniah
It's probably a bit strange, but due to really not knowing what to think of it, if I'm going to blow out a candle instead of snuffing it I out of habit mentally warn it first.


This is a very interesting idea. Just as you ask a plant's permission before you harvest it . . . I'll have to think about this some more.

[Nissala]

If you must extinguish a flame on a candle used for a spell, use a snuffer or pinch it out because if you blow it out, the magic will be blown out as well and the spell could be prematurely ended.

I heard/read the same as Mystic Wolf. if you blow out the candle instead of snuffing or pinching it out it will dispell the energies in all directions and will not be as stong or long lasting or may not "take" at all....

[Ganga]

Hindu viewpoint: Blowing out a candle is offensive because spit might fly out of your mouth into the flame. Fire represent God (Agni) and is also symbolic of Vishnu. Spit is, well, dirty.

[Mithrea]

Actually spit is very clean. Researchers are now saying if you cut yourself, you should like it because your saliva has certain antibiotic and sealing properties but that is beside the point. ;)

That makes sense too Ganga. But I suppose there are also practical reasons now that I am thinking about it. At those candle parties they tell you that you shouldn't blow out candles because you might splash wax on your face.

I think I will try pinching or snuffing them for a while and see if I notice a change in my spells effectiveness.

[Flar's Freyja]

I've blown 'em out, snuffed 'em out and pinched 'em out with my fingers....and the only problem I've seen with blowing them out is that it can be a bit messy or a little dangerous - every now and then wax might spill over or a spark or two might fly.

I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever in the results of my rituals no matter which method I've used.

[*~*Chary*~*]

the only way not to offend fire ... is to let it burn out itself ... not always practical i know but really the only way uless u ask fires permission and forgivness lol

[Ganga]

Chary, I can see your point. Now I actually remember that in Hindu temples the sacred lamp (a ghee wick on a brass stand) that has been offered to the Deities is always allowed to burn out by itself. The same with the sacrificial fire (the fire in a brick-pit).

In some spells, I've left the candle burn on its own all the way to the end, but I do snuff them out when I do simple rituals - I rarely do very complicated spells, anyway. I'm looking for unencumbered simplicity.

In this, like in everything, the intention is an important factor. Whether we snuff it or blow it, or leave it to burn by itself, we should know why we do it that way. Ritual/rules/habits without understanding the meaning become soon empty, don't they?

[Flar's Freyja]

I always try to allow the candle to burn all the way to its end but with three cats and a job, this is rarely possible. I say a little phrase when I have to interrupt the burning to keep the energy going even when the candle isn't lit.

The way I put them out depends on what I'm doing. I have a special candle where Brighid's flame was passed on to me. For it to continue to hold the flame so that I may transfer it to another candle, I feel it's absolutely necessary to pinch this one out. But I often just blow out my permanent altar candle.

When you would really like to have a candle burn all the way out, you can use birthday candles or tealights. The only difficulty with birthday candles is finding something small enough to hold them. However, I found a box of about 100 Channukah candles for $2 at the grocery store that are slightly bigger, and I actually found some crystal candleholders for them in a thrift shop! There's a great assortment of colors in one box, and they burn down in about an hour.

[*~*Chary*~*]

Yes i see your point about the three cats and a job ...... usually when i have to go out i put it in the bathroom and close the door .... that way the cats arent going to get it lol ...... or even put it somewhere that the oxygen supply will deplete quickly

[Danustouch]

Here's another point to ponder...

If you've HEARD that your spell might be less effective if you blow it out, and you worry about it when you are ending your spell, than it is possible that your spell will be less effective, because your attention is devided between the action, and the spell. So...my answer would be to do that which feels comfortable with you. I blow out my candles. But when I do so, I project energy through my breath, with purpose. I imagine my breath dispersing the spell into the universe. And it seems to work ok for me:) I've done a healing ritual, for a person who had phneumonia...and I had five candles in a circle around me, besides the elemental candles. At the end of the spell, I went around the circle blowing on each of these five candles, to send "Healthy Air" into the sick individuals lungs. And..the spell worked..within hours his fever broke, and he was doing better. So I think it entirely depends on how focused you are on the act of blowing the candle out. If you are doing it carelessly, and your attention is devided, it might weaken the spell. But..if you incorporate blowing out the candle into your ritual, then your intent is focused on the spell..and it should work just fine. Does that make sense?

Incidentally, the tealight, birthday candles, and small candles are a good idea. But..what I've also heard, is that if you don't have any of these around, what you can do, is use a taper, and scratch marks into the candle. Allow the candle to burn down to the first mark, and envision your spell being activated when it reaches that point. Then..the next time you light it, you can allow it to burn down to the second mark. Of course, this type of spell is best when it is a spell you plan to do over a course of time, not when you need an immediate result. If you do need an immediate result, mark the candle, allow it to burn down to that point, and then bury the rest of the candle. Do not use the same candle for another spell. That is what i've done, at least :)

[WandererInGray]

I try not to blow out candles for the practical reason someone else mentioned....it gets wax all over the place, and often, causes the candle to smoke more than it should.

Snuffer works best, or I just let it burn out.

[Rick]

Although I never blow out a 'magic' candle (early training is hard to break :T ), personally I think it couldn't matter less, but I also think it would be good to be consistent... but I'm funny that way... 8O

[Mithrea]

I agree that you should be consistent. This is probably not what you meant Rick, but if you are consistent at least the element knows what to expect (?) :huh: If that makes sense.

[Rick]

Originally posted by Mithrea
I agree that you should be consistent. This is probably not what you meant Rick, but if you are consistent at least the element knows what to expect (?) :huh: If that makes sense.
Hehehe... close enough...

[MasterMoon]

its just that blowing out a candle is more careless than putting it out by hand...it shows respect

[cherrywind]

I don't see how it's anymore careless than me taking a snuffer or pinching it out. To me, it's not a careless act. I don't blow wildly around hoping to blow out the flame in the process, I cup the flame with my hand and gently blow. How is that careless?

[Myst]

Compare putting your hands on a friends shoulders to help them relax vs blowing in their face.

heh. I think you get the idea.

Personally it doesn't matter to me. The most important thing is to do whatever feels right to you personally. When you act in a thought out, careful way, you can't go wrong.

[cherrywind]

I don't know about you, but I like blowing in my friend's faces ;).

You're right, whatever feels right is the way to go. Now that I really think about it, I always have issued a little warning to the flame right before blowing/pinching it out regardless of what I'm doing. I guess I just never realized it before.

[dragonsword]

I seem to recall this in one of Scott Cunninghams books.
Personally.... If its an Altar candle then I use a snuffer with a word of thanks be they God/Goddess or Fire candle
If its a spell candle then, whenever possible, I let them burn down but if they have to be extinguished then I pinch them out...It seems to keep the bond between me and the energy

[Mithrea]

It's very weird: Since I posted this I have looked through ever Scott Cunningham book I own and I haven't found it . . . Oh Well! ;) I suppose it's not important anymore! :D

[dragonsword]

I agree, That old joke about swamps and alligators comes to mind in that i think we can get bogged down in the minute detail instead of concentrating on the important things like the intent of the spell or ritual and raising the energy. My personal opinion (and experience) is that provided you can keep concentration and channel the energy then you can achieve the most surprising effects without any "equipment"at all.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Mithrea
It's very weird: Since I posted this I have looked through ever Scott Cunningham book I own and I haven't found it . . . Oh Well! ;) I suppose it's not important anymore! :D

I know I've seen it too........or maybe it was Silver Ravenwolf:huh:

[dragonsword]

Don't think it was silver Ravenwolf cos I have never read any of those books, but I will wade through all the Cunningham this weekend till I find it! then see what the man really said on the subject

[cherrywind]

Originally posted by dragonsword
I agree, That old joke about swamps and alligators comes to mind in that i think we can get bogged down in the minute detail instead of concentrating on the important things like the intent of the spell or ritual and raising the energy. My personal opinion (and experience) is that provided you can keep concentration and channel the energy then you can achieve the most surprising effects without any "equipment"at all.

I whole heartedly agree Dragonsword.
I haven't read any Silver RavenWolf either, I'm pretty sure it was Scott Cunningham. Now it's going to bother me so I have to flip through my books ;).

[*~*Chary*~*]

it could well have been one of Silver Ravenwolfs cause it DOES mention it in Teen Witch .... my nephew hasd it

[cherrywind]

Found it :D


Use a snuffer, your fingers, or your white-handled knife blade (clean off the wax and soot after each use).
It's from "Wicca, A Guide For the Solitary Practitioner" by Scott Cunningham. Of course, it could just as well be from Silver RavenWolf as well. It seems to be a pretty widespread belief.

[Mithrea]

Well, I checked my history at the local library website and I had checked that book out. I just don't remember it :( Maybe I should read it again.

[cherrywind]

That's basically all he said about the issue (unless there was more elsewhere in the book, I just went to the back and looked up "candles, snuffing" and there it was). He didn't go into any more detail. It's on page 105 for anybody who wants to take a look at it :).

[dragonsword]

Ok I found it!.....Wicca Scott Cunningham page 16 "Then quench the flames (use your fingers , a candle snuffer or a knife blade.Blowing them out is an affront to the Element of Fire)" No further explanation is given here. then the same statement is repeated on page 11 of Incense Oils and Brews by Scott Cunningham, although there is a reference to Part 3 of Earth Power again by Cunningham " for more information regarding Elenental Magic"
Then just to really muddy the pond there is a reference in Bucklands Complete Book of Witchcraft page 165 "sit for a moment before extinguishing the candles (which should be be blown out not pinched out)"
Soooo....We have here two "Big Names" totally at odds with each other. My instinct here is to forget the books! in that magic comes from whoever is performing the Spell or Ritual, I say trust your instincts and do whatever feels right at that times. Provided you show ritual intent and proper respect then you can't go far wrong.

[ChelleOfShadows]

I was taught that you should pinch out your ritual candles. As I have grown older, had children, aquired pets, etc.... I have taken a new route.

I found some inexpensive clear glass candle holders (69 cents) and a glass etcher ($2.79 @ HomeDepot), with these I inscribed for many of my "basic and often repeated" rituals by etching the glass. Within the glass I use my own herbs mixed with Wax pieces and wicks which I bought at a craft shop. You can find them in multiple colors as well. I repower the holder every time I use it as I repower my talismans and home protections etc...

With these candles I am free to perform my rituals, thanksgivings, etc.... and as well allow the candles to burn out on their own as I alone decide how much wax to use based on the length of the ritual and or thanksgiving or spell.

For MAJOR events I make my own candles with my own herbs and oils and to my own proportions. All (except herbs) ingredients for candles, wax, coloring and wicks are available at your local craft store.

I was taught that to blow out your ritual candles was to open your circle to evil. You should always pinch or snuff them and thereby close you candle as you would your circle. I have discovered I practice very differently from the norm. But I was taught from birth and it is inbred in me!

My 2 cents from the peanut gallery!

[Mithrea]

Ah, as I've already told you I think this is a great idea :) I believe I may try it. Thanks :D

[dragonsword]

I like the idea of the dedicated candle holders and herbs included in the candles.Do you grind the herbs or use them in pieces? Also do you burn incense made from the same herbs as in the candles during your rituals?
I usually dress the candles with an appropriate mix of essential oils and make my own herbal incense mix according to the rite being performed. Incidently if you want to start a good argument, ask your friends in the Craft if they dress a candle from the middle outwards towards the top and bottom or do they dress from the top and bottom towards the middle or do they dress from bottom to top or top to bottom if the candle is to be used in a banishing ritual!
I have never heard of breath opening the circle and maybe allowing nasties in and i don't recall reading in any of very many books, so I'm guessing that you follow a family Tradition rather than one of the bigger mainstream Traditions.

[Mithrea]

She is Cherokee ;)

[dragonsword]

Thanks for that! I'm an English witch used to thinking in terms of European traditions.

[ChelleOfShadows]

Ok let me start at the top and work my way down. I usually grind my dried herbs, with the exceptions of flower petals. This is only when I am between plantings, living in Florida has it's advantages for growing herbs and flowers. As well as I am limited on space I do not always burn incense as I have added the proper herbs, oils etc... directly to my candles. (They frown when you cast a circle in the middle of a golf course... GO figure). So mine is usually in the living room. For major rituals I have a special place I have to drive to.

As for dressing my candles, as I said I make my own and include the oils and herbs IN the candle itself. So with the exception of a banishement or cleansing spell I start with the center engraving, and then work my way clockwise down from top to bottom. For banishement or cleansing, I follow the ritual required for each dressing and the candle and I inscribe them from the bottom up, again clockwise.

Now it is not breath allowing evil in, it is blowing your candles out, you don't leave your circle and blow the candles into your circle do you? So therefore when you blow out your candles you are blowing it out of your circle, which opens your circle. As it was not Air that took the smoke out of your circle but you.

And yes you hit the nail on the head, I am not very "mainstream" I learned as a child and combined two beliefs into my own.

[dragonsword]

Thanks for the info. iwas curious as to the way youwork and now I,m wiser. I too mostly work in my living room as the British still take a dim view of our workings. Maybe you should found a Wiccan golf club.

[Rick]

Do you know what kind of greens fees a Wiccan golf club would charge? And where would the Asatru play? :T

[dragonsword]

Compulsary attendance at all Sabats and a minimum of 7 Esbats each year
2lbs of salt
13 ritual candles (suitably dressed and inscribed)
3 gallons of water from any sacred well of your choice.
1lb of earth from Stonehenge or Glastonbury (difficult in the case of American Witches but earth from any sacred ring/site may be substituted)
! can of compressed air gathered from any sacred site
At least 16 hours of polishing God and Goddess statues on the club altar.
These green fees are subject to regular review by the club captain(High Priestess)
And the entity quoted in your message would have to play off the first tee like anybody else

[ChelleOfShadows]

:rotfl:

However, use of magick in play is strictly prohibited until your handicap is established!!!

As well, you MUST provide allowances and drops for the possibility of a fairway circle!!

Too funny made me laugh thanks!