Wheel of the Year observances

[MonSno_LeeDra]

The thread Mixing Pantheons: What's the big problem? (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=167621) raised some interesting things that have danced around in the back of my head. Many people, both for and against the concept, presenting valid reasons for why one should or shouldn't.

Yet for all that one thing the thread really didn't touch upon was the fact that most of the Pagan wheel of the year is based upon a Celtic cultural system of observances. Holidays as defined and identifed by that cultural identity yet prasing gods / goddess who had thier own special days and cultural identy. Not only cultural identiy but in many instances specific times and places for worship of thier area of influence.

So if it is wrong or right to mix and match gods / goddess how can it be correct to place them upon the cyclic nature of the Celtic wheel amd not upon thier own? That thier is a universal "Wheel of the Year" is not in doubt. That most cultural societies had some celebratory sequence to honor it not in doubt yet it probally did not line up with the celtic cycle.

Seasonal periods drasticlly shorter in Northern Europe than the Med basin. Planting and flood periods different, harvest periods different. If one claims to honor the spirit of the gods /goddess and the cultural identy they represent then how can you honor them upon a calander built for a completely different cultural perspective?

[October]

You raise an interesting point. I think that to a certain extent you are right; the Egyptians would not necessarily celebrate Mabon, say, but some similar harvest festival. I think it also has something to do with the practitioner's geographic location. I know that in Guatemala, there are only two seasons, therefore, they would not feel the same seasonal signposts as the Celts did. I think it has to do with the practitioner's gut feeling, more than anything. I live in a place with four seasons and I can feel the wheel turning with very familiar indicators (changing colors, new grass, etc) so it's easy for me to celebrate Celtic festivals.

Quite thought-provoking!

[Tanya]

here in Australia we are flipped.... so it is REALLY complicated....
and we find ourselves saying "lets push back our Beltane celebration a week because its sooo cold right now...."

The point is it not, is to be in touch with the place where you are...

[October]

That's a good point too. I got as far as Guate, which is close to the Equator, but I never thought of Australia. Lol.

[Lemon]

That's one of the reasons why I stopped using the Wheel of the Year concept. It just doesn't fit well with my Kemetic beliefs. But, I do love the changing seasons. So, I kinda celebrate them in a non-religious way.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Lemon,

Just curious but can't you use the wheel as defined by the changes in the Nile? I know so much of the Ancient kingdom was built around the annual floods and the growing period from that. For that mater much of modern day life is still built around that to a degree.

Not saying you have to but the seasonal changes are not as extreme as Northern America but their still is a seasonal change. Wet periods to dry periods, summer heat to winter coolness. Planting to harvest, ripening of the fruit, birth of wildlife that holds with many seasonal variants.

This is sort of what I was talking about with reference to the cycles of Northern Europe versus the lesser changing climate of Northern Africa.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

October wrote:



I know that in Guatemala, there are only two seasons, therefore, they would not feel the same seasonal signposts as the Celts did.


Just out of curosity why not?

When I lived in Southern Spain we had primarly two seasons, summer heat winter cold compard to the summer. Yet even in that thier was all four seasons only not to the extremes we might notice in Northern Europe or North America.

The sign posts are thier for each area and someone who lived thier would read those signs as well as the Ancient Celts. Yet the time scale and scale of passage of change would be differnet.

But do we do a disservice to the inhabantints of an area to say they do not have the changes? That we don't recognize them in no way invalidates the fact they are known to the persons raised thier.

This is another factor in knowing the cyclic nature of the people and gods / goddess for a given mythos I think.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Tanya wrote:



The point is it not, is to be in touch with the place where you are...


I agree with being in touch with the place you are at. By the way I take my hat off to you for the inverse of everything would drive me crazy. However, I do suppose one would get use to it after a bit of living their.

Yet it also supports my question. Wouldn't it be better to use the Aboriginal wheel than one for Northern Europe? Not saying its wrong but if one goes by the land then wouldn't the aborginies have a closer connection to the changing seasons than one not living off the land?

I can understand having a celebration of a Mabon type event but would it be more logical to use local lore and names vice transplanted lore? Since I honestly don't know what terms the aborgonies use I can't even give a comparrison name.

[October]

Just out of curosity why not?
In Guatemala they have the rainy season and the dry season. So, yes, they would be able to feel when the wet season is coming on, but there isn't really a "fall" the way we see it. No colored leaves, no crisp wind, etc. Guatemala is pretty hot and humid year 'round for the most part, more or less so depending on the time of year. It's still t-shirt-and-shorts weather at Christmas. Unfortunately, so much of the true Mayan culture was destroyed that we really aren't all that clear on their seasonal festivals. All I really know about is the festivals to bring the rains, and the festivals to make it stop! :lol: But too much of the old lore has been obscured by the predominately Catholic festivals surrounding the life of Christ.

My main point in bringing up Guate, was the drastic weather differences between them and us in So. Cal. I by no means meant them any disrespect. I am myself half Guatemalan, which is where my experience comes from. :)

[MonSno_LeeDra]

October wrote:



My main point in bringing up Guate, was the drastic weather differences between them and us in So. Cal. I by no means meant them any disrespect. I am myself half Guatemalan, which is where my experience comes from. :)


From my perspective I saw no disrespect implied or given.

Was curious as I have no compatable experience that I can relate to it. I've been to the Philliphines so perhaps weather cycle is similar, they had rainy, dry and volcanic. I remember it being hot and humid for a lot of the time then the typhoon season started and it rained and rained and rained. The only cooling was the breeze coming in off the ocean but once inland it sucked.

[October]

The only cooling was the breeze coming in off the ocean but once inland it sucked.
Oh man, tell me about it! Rainy season in Guate (Summer months here) are miserable. Hot and sticky and you can't wear jeans because, if you're lucky (or stubborn) enough to get them on, you surely won't get them off!

[Tanya]

I agree with being in touch with the place you are at. By the way I take my hat off to you for the inverse of everything would drive me crazy. However, I do suppose one would get use to it after a bit of living their.

Yet it also supports my question. Wouldn't it be better to use the Aboriginal wheel than one for Northern Europe? Not saying its wrong but if one goes by the land then wouldn't the aborginies have a closer connection to the changing seasons than one not living off the land?

I can understand having a celebration of a Mabon type event but would it be more logical to use local lore and names vice transplanted lore? Since I honestly don't know what terms the aborgonies use I can't even give a comparrison name.

Well, I'm not Aboriginal, and I feel there is something inately wrong with co-opting someone else's spiritual tradition that isn't culturally yours.... cultural mining... or something like that, it seems disrespectful for me to try to take on their culture, so i don't.

I stick with my cultural background and fit it into the seasons here... so... right now we are about the celebrate Oester.

the only sucky thing is that my daughter (age 4) doesn't really understand why we don't celebrate holidays when everyone else does.. she's sad other kids have Easter while we are having Mabon, but I try to spin it as "The Easter Bunny comes JUST for you. in Septmeber". and since I'm American we make a big deal about Mabon and have an American style Thanksgiving feast.. so there are trade-offs... though the day after... eveyone else has chocolate in their lunch as a treat, and mine has pumpkin pie. :T
.. however.... finding egg dye is nearly impossible this time of year, and foil wrapped chocolate eggs, I have to get them at easter and keep them in the freezer for months...

[October]

"The Easter Bunny comes JUST for you. in Septmeber".
:lol: That's awesome!:T

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Tanya wrote:



Well, I'm not Aboriginal, and I feel there is something inately wrong with co-opting someone else's spiritual tradition that isn't culturally yours.... cultural mining... or something like that, it seems disrespectful for me to try to take on their culture, so i don't.



I can respect that. Myself I think the only reference I could say I have to anything aboriginal would be from Crocadile Dundee or Quigly Down Under. Both movies of which I'm pretty sure didn't do the aboriginal people any good.

Petty bad to think all I know of them is from a few movies.:help:



the only sucky thing is that my daughter (age 4) doesn't really understand why we don't celebrate holidays when everyone else does..


That can make it hard.



I stick with my cultural background and fit it into the seasons here


I know it makes it difficult but I can't help but wonder if you do not have a better understanding of American cultural norms than many in American who take it for granted. I find It means so much more when you have to work at it than just let it roll up on you.

[Nitefalle]

Now, throw into all that the fact that, really, only half the festivals on the Wheel of the Year are truly Celtic in origin: Samhain, Beltaine, Lughnassadh and Imbolc, which were all taken mainly from the Irish mythos. The other half are Germanic in origin, I believe....at least, the names of them are: Yule, Litha & Eostre. "Mabon" is a very recent naming for the autumnal equinox.

[EvieLee]

Well, I'm not Aboriginal, and I feel there is something inately wrong with co-opting someone else's spiritual tradition that isn't culturally yours.... cultural mining... or something like that, it seems disrespectful for me to try to take on their culture, so i don't.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Props to you.

I would also add that one doesn't have to be native aboriginal to a country to be connected to the land. I've lived here all my 20 years and consider myself quite connected.

[Zebi]

You raise an interesting point. I think that to a certain extent you are right; the Egyptians would not necessarily celebrate Mabon, say, but some similar harvest festival.

In the Kemetic (Egyptian) calendar, there are three seasons: Akhet (Inundation), Peret (Growing), and Shomu (Harvest); each consisting of four months. The Autumn Equinox falls during the season of Akhet, which was the season during which the land was flooded by the Nile river. There would have been no harvest at this time. Planting crops would have been done during the season of Peret, and the harvest would have taken place during Shomu.

As a follower of Kemetic Orthodoxy, I follow the Kemetic calendar. Living in North America, the difference in the seasons can be a bit confusing. :) I reconcile this by regarding the seasons of the Kemetic calendar as reflecting the spiritual cycles of my life.

[cheddarsox]

I am a pantheist, and to a casual observer it might look like I follow the typical "Wheel of the Year", because by observing the solar holidays and their crossquarters (they fit my climate nearly exactly!) I am having observances on the same days.

But I do not use the names, pantheons, mythologies of the Celtic wheel.

I also observe other holy days that, as far as I know, do not fall on the Celtic wheel at all.

I think many pagans may use the Wheel as a way to share community. If a pagan is a solitary, or follows an uncommon path, the only time they might get a chance to share ritual and celebration with other pagans might be on the Wheel holidays. So even if they are not significant days in their path, they are significant in the fellowship opportunity they provide.

[earthsong]

I hope this answers adequately: I celebrate the four solar festivals (equinoxes, solstices) and lunar phases. I don't use the Celtic names or even refer to them as sabbats/esbats, nor do I recognize their cross-quarter days. The way I see it, the festivals can be celebrated as either religious observances or observed independent of religion altogether; the stages of the moon, equinoxes and solstices occur whether you are Christian, Pagan or atheist.

[Lemon]

Lemon,

Just curious but can't you use the wheel as defined by the changes in the Nile? I know so much of the Ancient kingdom was built around the annual floods and the growing period from that. For that mater much of modern day life is still built around that to a degree.

Not saying you have to but the seasonal changes are not as extreme as Northern America but their still is a seasonal change. Wet periods to dry periods, summer heat to winter coolness. Planting to harvest, ripening of the fruit, birth of wildlife that holds with many seasonal variants.

This is sort of what I was talking about with reference to the cycles of Northern Europe versus the lesser changing climate of Northern Africa.

Personally, the only way I can relate to the Egyptian cycle/annual floods is by giving them spiritual meanings. Zebi said a little bit about this in her post. I can't really comprehend exactly what the annual floods are like because I'm not in Egypt, and have never been there.

But, most of the time I forget to follow any calender or cycles. (I know, bad person..lol). I believe in the gods and everything, but I'm not exactly the most religious person in the world.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Lemon wrote:



But, most of the time I forget to follow any calender or cycles. (I know, bad person..lol).


NOT from my perspective. One thing I've learnt over the years is that time is perspective driven by the events and changes about us. To this day I still find myself saying you mean its _______ already!



I can't really comprehend exactly what the annual floods are like because I'm not in Egypt, and have never been there.



I can understand that. I try to be emathetic and understading of what I read or hear but without the personal experience to connect it togethr for me it only a vague concept at best.



I believe in the gods and everything, but I'm not exactly the most religious person in the world.


I find I frequently think that people underestimate their religious commitment. If you think of your god / goddess and hold a place in you for them then I think your very religious. The dog and pony show of ritual / celebrations / and such only mean your outward representation of it but none of that shows the true depth of your heart.

Just my opinion.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

earthsong wrote:



I hope this answers adequately


I can't speak for others but personally I do not think an answer is either dequately or inadaquet. It is what you as an individual have felt compeled to put forth. As long as it be honest in my opinion I think one has nothing to regret.



The way I see it, the festivals can be celebrated as either religious observances or observed independent of religion altogether; the stages of the moon, equinoxes and solstices occur whether you are Christian, Pagan or atheist.


Good Point.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

cheddarsox wrote:



I think many pagans may use the Wheel as a way to share community. If a pagan is a solitary, or follows an uncommon path, the only time they might get a chance to share ritual and celebration with other pagans might be on the Wheel holidays. So even if they are not significant days in their path, they are significant in the fellowship opportunity they provide


Very good point. From a social condition I can see the universal standard as a plain of reference all can recognize.