unschooler a little TOO eager and independent

[brymble]

We've unschooled Damien since preschool. He is eager to learn and wants to do things by himself. The drawback - he's so eager to do things himself that he won't allow me to show him how to do things, even when he has asked me. Of course as unschoolers we acknowledge here are many things he can learn to do on his own, (he is teaching himself drawing perspective, and math better than we ever could) but there are other things that he needs guidance with for safety's sake, or to prevent our tiny apartment from getting covered floor to ceiling in muffin batter.

He'll grab things out of my hand and try to go on to the next step before I've told him what to do. I need him to slow down and listen to me, if he wants to learn to use valuable tools like knives or power tools or other dangerous/messy equipment. This morning's conflict (which ended in him impatiently storming out of the kitchen) had to do with muffin baking instead of anything dangerous, but I'm afraid to let him learn to use other tools he will need eventually, like craft knives and hammers, because he won't slow down and allow me to show him how to use less potentially dangerous tools properly and safely.

Does anyone else taking a hands-on learning approach with their homeschoolers have this problem? How can I find a solution that will assure him he still has the educational freedom that has been so effective in other areas and that he so values?

[Lunacie]

My grandkids go to public school, but otherwise are very much like the description of your son. They have ADD, it sounds like your son may have it also. Have you checked out any information on it?

I've tried giving the oldest one Omega 3 supplements with little benefit (but they sure do help ME). I need to add some magnesium to the Omega 3 and try to remember to get both of them to take the supplements. We are in the process of changing our diet as well.

[brymble]

I do not wish to turn this threat into a debate about learning differences. Suffice to say my entire family of origin "has" so-called "ADD", and that living with a label of a "disorder" giving me permission to not take responsibility for my own learning strategies and the standard public-school approach to "correcting" the "problem" was profoundly unhelpful, artifically raised my blood pressure, wrecked my already battered self-esteem, actually interfered with my learning process to the tune of suddenly plummeting to a B and C student where before I was excelling in most subjects except some sciences and math, cost me years and many dollars of counselling to heal, and is precisely the reason why I'm unschooling.

For the record, and this really just has to do with phrasing rather than the idea you're trying to convey, labelling a "disorder" is really only useful in a classroom setting where the parents and teacher have limited opportunities to really observe and adapt to a students learning style, and where he or she is being compared to other students and expected to conform to the group learning strategy. Furthermore, living with the belief that I "had" a "disorder" (or that it had me, or worse, that I was the disorder "ADHD") was simply not helpful, in that first of all it lead me to believe that there was something wrong with my highly visual and kinesthetic learning style, or worse wrong with me, and that I could shift blame and responsibility for my learning difficulties onto some "disorder" that I could not control, needed special accomodations for (thus marking me as "different") and that I therefore "could not help it" and needed to take no further responsibility beyond taking a pill for my learning habits and techniques.

Absolute rubbish! When I flushed the ritalin and began taking responsibility for my own learning the second time I went to college, I shot back up from the B and C grades to dean's list. I learned many learning tricks and techniques to improve my learning (some of which I am sharing with my son, and others that are probably more appropriate for high school and college-level learning, as that was where I was applying them) as well as figuring out that there was a very good reason why I thrived in my free-form studio classes and staggered in the more structured lectures. These experiences are the very things that shape my philosophy and strategy as an unschooler.

Again, that has more to do with phrasing and labelling that what you are trying to say with it. Yes, I agree with you, he is an exceptionally active learner, as is his mother before him. I do not see that as a disorder that needs to be corrected, in either of us, however, and am attempting to come up with a new communication and learning strategy for the "teachable moments" that actually require teaching, because if what we're doing now isn't working, its more likely there is something wrong with the strategy than something wrong with the child. We unschool to give us the flexibility to change, after all.

Can you share your experience with supplements, please? I am intersted in that. I'm a little hesitant to use magnesium, as I had terrible adverse reactions to magnesium supplements when he was born. Omega-3 ssupplements have been recommended, but we're vegetarian and fish oil is out. Is there a vegetarian source you can recommend? When I was in college I took ginko supplements to exceedingly wonderful results (that was the semester I was a 10th of a point away from honor society) but I'm not sure if this is a safe or appropriate herb to use with children.

Kudos on changing your diet! Getting the wheat out for us was like waving a magic wand. It was challenging at first but learning new ways to bake has brought us together. Well, except for this morning's muffin incident.

I'm beginning to wonder if the time of day we do these activities could be affecting his behavior? Perhaps I should have waited until later in the day? He always wants to do things first thing in the morning, but he usually understands waiting as long as he's given a respectful explaination why we can or can't do something. He's fussier in the morning though. So maybe baking should become an afternoon activity, now that the days are cooling off?

[TheWomanMonster]

I think that at the end of your last post something clicked for you, choose the time of day when he is already most relaxed. Or alternately, switch up the routine so he can do things that he already excells and and knows how to do in the morning. That way all that energy will go into something he KNOWS he's good at, he'll do well and be proud of his achievements.

As for getting him to slow down and learn the proper techniques and possible dangers of certain tools I'd say treat it like 'science' with the baking, before anything comes out of the cupboard, tell him about measuring the perfect amount of this or that to get the right reaction.
With tools, knives and other such things, before they come out of the tool box or drawer tell him how to cut away from himself.

I get the feeling that he's VERY bright and probably just wants the oppourtunity to prove himself as such.
I'm not sure if you do any of this already, but it's the first step I'd take myself to help explain things in a situation like yours. Maybe if it's a complicated procedure, again before anything comes out, say something like "I'll show you first and then you can try it yourself".

I think part of the issue is that once he sees it, that is where his attention is.
But if it's still hidden he's going to pay attention to YOU and your instructions instead.

If that doesn't work, I hope you can find some solution.

And I wish you luck in your unschooling adventure!

:hugz:

[TheWomanMonster]

Oh and Brymble,
Omega 3 can be found in vegetarian sources,
Flax Seed Oil for example.

:)

edit to add:
found this article (http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2001sep/2001sepomega3.htm) in the Vegetarian Journal : September 2001 issue.

[Lunacie]

I think scheduling can make a difference for sure. Some kids are more able to adapt to imposed schedules while others do better setting their own pace.

I think the way ADD is seen and treated is changing, for the better I think. I am the facilitator of an ADD support group for people who have ADD or have family members and children with ADD. I absolutely encourage them to begin with strategies for coping, with therapy and counseling, and with "natural" supplements. For some, prescription drugs are still a necessity in that they allow the child or person to focus well enough to learn those tricks and strategies, and to know themselves well enough to cope with the problems. And now the doctors understand that Ritalin is not the best choice for everyone with neurological disorders and they have several other medications to try.

Yes, you can try taking Omega 3 in the form of Flax Seed Oil. I have read a study where taking Evening Primrose Oil in conjunction with the Omega 3 provides even better benefits. I just added that to my regimen again after not taking it for a couple of years. I don't take the magnesium (and calcium and zinc combination) supplement as regularly either. I generally take it for a couple of months and then leave it out of the regimen for a month or two.

We thought eliminating at least some of the gluten was helping the youngest, but for the last week she's back to having all the issues she was having. Very frustrating. We're just learning to eat this way, and haven't really started teaching her daddy yet, he takes the girls every weekend and they nearly always stop for burgers on the way home. He also has them help him bake a cake a couple of times a month. As we learn which products are good we will clue him in.

However, the school cannot provide a gluten free diet for her unless we get her doctor to sign a form saying she does have Celiac's, and he is resistant to giving out that diagnosis. Unfortunately, www.celiac.com (http://www.celiac.com) doesn't list any doctors who specialize in the disorder here in Kansas. Arghh.

[Tullip Troll]

my friend used a camera to capture her and her sons conversations etc, and she was surprised at how she sounded vs how she thought she sounded. Her son did not know about the camera just to makesure he was himself. She said it helped her leanr to come across better.

Not sure that will help you, just letting you know how my friend inproved her unschooling . He had gotteninto a habit of dismissing her.

[brymble]

Lunacie, it doesn't have to be celiac. Celiac is only one reason why someone cannot tolerate gluten. A child could have a mild allergy to one specific kind of wheat, and it could still cause problems consuming commercial baked goods. Not all allergies are celiac (which is a difficult diagnosis to make and requires a biopsy to be sure, mainly because plain old non-celiac wheat allergies are so common.) Have an allergist - not your general practitioner or pediatrician - check for food allergies. If your doctor is hesitant to diagnose celiac (and I don't blame him - who wants to put a child through a biopsy?) he will most likely be glad to write you a referral to someone who can make a more specialized diagnosis. Gluten and wheat products are only one kind of food allergy that can cause behavior problems, and celiac is a different issue entirely. The school is required to accomidate food allergies, even if it is not celiac. The school has no legal ground to only accept certain diagnosises and reject others. If your child is tested by an allergist and is found to have an allergy, and the school refuses to accomidate, you do have grounds to take legal action.

As for getting the wheat out, in order to see any real lasting behavior change, you need to get all, not even most, but all of the gluten and other suspected food allergens completely out of the diet for a period of at least 2 weeks, sometimes longer. Then, gradually reintroduce foods, one at a time, and carefully study the reactions. Yes it is a hassle, as a matter of fact it's a royal pain in the ass if you're really set in your ways, but it is so, so, so totally worth it! And you do need the cooperation of the entire family. You need to educate Dad and have his cooperation before you attempt to make changes, if for no other reason, then because it's more fair to everyone. The trial period is not a life sentence, after all, and the information you glean from it can make everyone happier in the long run. Once you get started, it's easier than you thought it would be.

If you need more help eliminating gluten, or at least wheat, from the diet, PM me for resources. Celiac.com is a great resource (try the cornbread cobbler recipe!) but it most helpful for actual celiaces, and celiac disease is not the same as wheat allergy, although they often get lumped in together. If your child has a wheat allergy that affects her behavior, it might not be celiac. It could be just a wheat allergy, which is still an allergy and will require eliminatine the problem food from the diet (whether the control freaks at the school like it or not.)

Tulip Troll, I love the camera idea! We don't have a video camera, but maybe I could either borrow one or at least hide a cassette player! It could be just as much my communication style, especially in the morning (in truth, none of us are morning people but we all love hot muffins for breakfast) as it is his behavior. We do need to pay more attention to scheduling, not just for this. Once my business takes off and I'm teaching or seeing clients, it could very easily get crazy and spin out of control.

I've heard that flax oil is an inferior source of Omega-3's. Does the evening primrose compensate for that or something? I'll have to try it. I've just recalled that my NLP trainer is a total supplement nut with an encyclopedic knowledge of safe, natural supplements, especially brain/nervous system supplements, so I should probably ask him, too.

I've heard that hempseed oil (the legal supplement sold in health food stores) is rich in Omega-3's. Do you know anything about it? Is it a better or worse source than flax? Is flax oil available in capsules? I'm concerned he won't like the taste.

edited to add: WomanMonster, I almost missed the article at the end of your post. I've bookmarked it. It doesn't mention hemp, but people are often afraid to discuss it because of its more controversial relative. I'm dismayed, we're allergic to walnuts! Yes, he is very bright! I'm really afraid one of these nights I'm going to hear lightning crackling and cries of "It's aliiiiiiiiive!" coming from his bedroom. In fact his father and I suspect he's probably smarter than we are! He learns so quickly and hates performance-based evaluations like tests, so half of the challenge of unschooling has been figuring out what he already knows and is not letting on!

[Shanti]

Tell him who is boss. He has to learn to follow directions or someday he will find himself getting fired for not listing to his boss.
Doing all on your own is great, but there are limits and they need to be learned.
Maybe time to be a tad assertive?

[Tullip Troll]

hemp oil and hearts(seeds) are hig in omegas and very high in protein. it also tastes good.

Shanti has a point even in unschooling it would be unfair to bring up someone without them seeing some assertiveness and leadership.

if you can try the taping, so many things it could be,

[Lunacie]

Thank you for the information on wheat allergies that aren't necessarily Celiac's. That could explain why the numbers from the first blood test weren't enough to convince the doctor. Although I really think he didn't know very much about wheat allergies or Celiac's before we asked to have Nove'Mber tested. He's obviously been doing some research over the summer. I really didn't want to have to put her through a biopsy to be certain, but I'm not sure all the allergy testing is much better (if any). Poor kiddo.

I had not heard that flax seed is inferior to fish oil, although I tried it and found it didn't work nearly as well for me. I knew there was another source but couldn't remember what it was... Hemp, of course. That may only be available at the health food store though.

[Tullip Troll]

hemp heart muffins, are very very yummy

[Shanti]

hemp heart muffins, are very very yummy
For a child? Not to great of advice, IMO.
Especially too that fact that its illegal!

[Tullip Troll]

hemp hearts are sold at health food stores, and they cannot be grown and have no thc in them. It's very sweet tasting ingrediant. Solf like a grain.

[Shanti]

hemp hearts are sold at health food stores, and they cannot be grown and have no thc in them. It's very sweet tasting ingrediant. Solf like a grain.wow. Thats new to me!
I never heard of such a thing.
LOL, learn something new everyday!!
Thanks for clearing that up! :)

[brymble]

i've never heard them called hemp hearts. here they're hempnuts or just hempseed. i get them at my co-op, or almost any health food store. i used to bake them in bread. there's a granola we buy in bulk called hemp plus that is made with hemp seeds that the kids really like. but like flax, i think to get the Omega-3's it's better to take the oil as a supplement than to try to get it from the seeds because otherwise you'd have to eat an awful lot.

hempseeds are not only legal, they're very nutritious. they are sterilized before selling to make them legal, but if they're from hemp (the low THC plant) and not marijuana, it's not like anyone could plant them and smoke up anyway. more stupid laws. illegal marijuana is dumb enough, illegal hemp is just plain stupid.

i appreciate your advice, guys, but kind of resent the implication that because we are radical unschoolers i must therefore be using no discipline whatsoever and letting him run wild. his outburst put an end to his participation in the muffin-baking and sent him to his room. what i'm looking for now is strategies to support his learning in ways that will prevent the need for discipline in the first place, so that learning experiences are not interrupted as they wre this morning. the camera will allow us all to see what mistakes we're all making, and paying closer attention to scheduling and peak learning times is something that's needed anyway.

[TheWomanMonster]

I no longer eat or smoke marijunna (the THC containing plant) but I do like to supplement my diet with hemphearts, they go in almost anything.

:) hope you find a workable suplement Brymble
and of course some way to figure out what that boy of yours knows before he takes everything in the house apart. LOL.

:hugz:

[Ceres]

i appreciate your advice, guys, but kind of resent the implication that because we are radical unschoolers i must therefore be using no discipline whatsoever and letting him run wild. his outburst put an end to his participation in the muffin-baking and sent him to his room. what i'm looking for now is strategies to support his learning in ways that will prevent the need for discipline in the first place, so that learning experiences are not interrupted as they wre this morning. the camera will allow us all to see what mistakes we're all making, and paying closer attention to scheduling and peak learning times is something that's needed anyway.

Hehe, better get used to people assuming unschooling means you dont know how to parent - it goes with the territory and the only way to stop it is for your children to turn out great....which doesnt help you right now. If it makes you feel better, my kids have always been unschooled and are great kids if I do say so myself, at 13 11 and 7.

I agree with you about not turning every little behavioral quirk into a disorder. While it may help to know there is a blanket term to describe a set of behaviors, it isnt neccessarily helpful because a lot of the parenting advice for these disorders is not attachment parenting friendly anyway.

Personally, I think its better to treat the child as an individual and treat the behaviors as they arise. As far as your muffin making morning, dont read too much into it. So he wasnt in the mood to bake muffins your way....it doesnt mean he will never get how to use power tools safely. You are looking WAY to far into the future :) Have a little faith in his ability to grow and mature. It could just be he realizes that a mixer is a pretty innoccuous piece of machinery and thought your caution was over stated. Or maybe he didnt really want to bake muffins....or maybe he needed to get out and do some active play or maybe he....who knows? They are only muffins :lol:

Please dont make the mistake of thinking that having limits set on his behaviors will destroy his ability to learn through unschooling. I am not sure where that philosophy joined with unschooling philosophy, but I think its silly. There are ways to respectfully set realistic limits without destroying your relationship with your child. After all, you set limits in all your realtionships to other adults. The trick is to think about how you are setting limits will make the child feel. There is a world of difference between saying "NO, because I said so" and "Here, watch me use the mixer to start. See how I hold it uprigth so it doesnt spray batter everywhere? This way we dont have to wash the ceiling when we are done baking"

[Lyrien]

Is it possible to set him up for failure by not following directions? This way you can take a teaching moment to teach something he really wasn't expecting to learn. Perhaps allowing him to make a few mistakes with the muffins would teach him that following the directions would have made for better tasting muffins. You would need to be careful that you don't choose an activity that would be dangerous, but one that would produce something undesired as a result of not following instruction.

[brymble]

Is it possible to set him up for failure by not following directions? This way you can take a teaching moment to teach something he really wasn't expecting to learn. Perhaps allowing him to make a few mistakes with the muffins would teach him that following the directions would have made for better tasting muffins. You would need to be careful that you don't choose an activity that would be dangerous, but one that would produce something undesired as a result of not following instruction.


I think that's much of the reason why I should make him wait until later in the day before helping me with baking. I just can't handle muffin batter on the ceiling before noon!

[willa]

Just a thought but what about assigning safty part of the lesson. For example, if your building a bird house, have him research what tools & equipment he will need, what safty equipment, the proper use of each tool, what kind of injuries could result in improper use , take him to the hard ware store to talk to sales people, etc. & have him present it. Then you don't proceed until he passes that section. Another thing you could try is have him teach you, he has to make the lesson plan, gather all the equipment, shopping list, etc. - putting them in that position usually makes them slow down & think things through. Of course, it would need to be something at his level that he can do completely on his own without having to come to you other then to take him to the store for supplies.
Good luck.

[BlackLili]

I've heard that hempseed oil (the legal supplement sold in health food stores) is rich in Omega-3's. Do you know anything about it? Is it a better or worse source than flax? Is flax oil available in capsules? I'm concerned he won't like the taste.

I saw that others have confirmed that hempseed oil is fantastic for the omegas and proteins, but I thought I would humbly suggest it as an addition to salads (especially those with nuts, if you eat them,), as well as suggesting those fillable empty capsules if he doesn't like the taste. My local co-op sells them in the bulk herbs section by themselves, maybe yours has some as well? The only drawback is that closing a capsule filled with oil can be tricky. Keep a towel handy to keep fingers dry for workingness. :)

Good luck!

~BL