pagan's,fam or fued?

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

hello all, and merry meet. i have adressed this issue with local yahoo pagan groups, and would like to see how you respond,.

why does it seem,that rather than working together in
harmony,(some) pagan's that claim they only wish good for their fellow
man,bring chaotic wishes? coven's/groups badmouthing other
coven's/groups, gatherings, or even authors? it seems our biggest
advisary is our fellow brother or sister.i'm not saying that there
isn't unity,you can move to a new area,and find like mided people to
get along with just fine,but when you do,you will find the same
predicament as before you moved,pagan' s verbally bashing other
pagan's,and pagan's universally agree,that there are many authors that
have no clue what they're talking about,when we are so easy to forget
the basics of magick,3 small ingredients without lighting a single
candle,.1 intent (what do you want/need and why) 2 fuition (how is it
going to happen?) and 3 manifestation, with this in mind,everyones
ideals about magick/craft work can happen,but you can't expect to move
forward,if your faith is stunted.

bottom line,..why can't we all just send the best thoughts eachothers
way all the time,and only have negative words/thoughts, if there is a
viable reason?

blessed be,
~drake
:ringaroun:ringaroun:ringaroun:ringaroun:ringaroun

[Fiamma]

bottom line,..why can't we all just send the best thoughts eachothers
way all the time,and only have negative words/thoughts, if there is a
viable reason?



1. One pagan's viable reason is another's childish tantrum.

2. We're humans. Arguments, fights, feuds etc are odds-on to happen SOMETIME anytime you get more than one person together.

I've never believed that the fact that any two or more people happen to be pagan obligates them to get along and be all nicey-nice any more than the fact that they both drive a Ford, or really love the Mets, or wear plaid shirts every Thursday.

This isn't to say that I don't wish people in general would be more reasonable and mature, but it has nothing to do with them being pagan and everything to do with the fact that I have to share breathing space with them, but that it should all come about because they're pagan is silly.

Oh, and I think that a lot of folks should stop the endless blather about "harmony" and "balance" and learn what balance is and acknowledge the fact that dissonance is harmony too.

[Theres]

no REAL Pagan would like the Mets anyway!


:smileroll

[Fiamma]

no REAL Pagan would like the Mets anyway!


:smileroll

yeah, well I guess in that case, two pagans that liked the Mets really should be friends :-P

[aluokaloo]

hello all, and merry meet. i have adressed this issue with local yahoo pagan groups, and would like to see how you respond,.

why does it seem,that rather than working together in
harmony,(some) pagan's that claim they only wish good for their fellow
man,bring chaotic wishes? coven's/groups badmouthing other
coven's/groups, gatherings, or even authors? it seems our biggest
advisary is our fellow brother or sister.i'm not saying that there
isn't unity,you can move to a new area,and find like mided people to
get along with just fine,but when you do,you will find the same
predicament as before you moved,pagan' s verbally bashing other
pagan's,and pagan's universally agree,that there are many authors that
have no clue what they're talking about,when we are so easy to forget
the basics of magick,3 small ingredients without lighting a single
candle,.1 intent (what do you want/need and why) 2 fuition (how is it
going to happen?) and 3 manifestation, with this in mind,everyones
ideals about magick/craft work can happen,but you can't expect to move
forward,if your faith is stunted.

bottom line,..why can't we all just send the best thoughts eachothers
way all the time,and only have negative words/thoughts, if there is a
viable reason?

blessed be,
~drake
:ringaroun:ringaroun:ringaroun:ringaroun:ringaroun

that's nan easy answer, were people, and like all others, pagany people aren't perfect. we have our likes, dislikes, quirks, and unique personalities, and we don't always get along, there will always be people we don't like, people that make you want to smack them over and over and over again, plus we all have negative emotions, hate, fear, sadness, disgust, intolerance, and high and mightiness, were all hypocrites, and we can also be judgemental, just like everybody else, fact of life get over it.

[Rick]

Egos.

Let's face it, how many Wiccans do you meet that aren't a HP/HPS, and a Reiki master? Or Heathens that aren't a Gothi/Gythia, and a rune master (I claim neither, BTW)?

Too many stud ducks in the farm pond.

[TheWomanMonster]

Egos.

Let's face it, how many Wiccans do you meet that aren't a HP/HPS? Or Heathens that aren't a Gothi/Gythia? Too many stud ducks in the farm pond.

Quoted for Truth!

[Rick]

Quoted for Truth!
Now, Monster darlin', ya know ya shouldn't Quote Rick for Truth till he's finished editin'... :hehehehe:

I see the humor... please don't change it... :smile:

[EvieLee]

I had this said to me once when I raised this issue and the answer is worth repeating.

Being Pagan doesn't always equate to being tolerant or accepting.

It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't.

[Lunacie]

1. One pagan's viable reason is another's childish tantrum.

2. We're humans. Arguments, fights, feuds etc are odds-on to happen SOMETIME anytime you get more than one person together.

I've never believed that the fact that any two or more people happen to be pagan obligates them to get along and be all nicey-nice any more than the fact that they both drive a Ford, or really love the Mets, or wear plaid shirts every Thursday.

This isn't to say that I don't wish people in general would be more reasonable and mature, but it has nothing to do with them being pagan and everything to do with the fact that I have to share breathing space with them, but that it should all come about because they're pagan is silly.

Oh, and I think that a lot of folks should stop the endless blather about "harmony" and "balance" and learn what balance is and acknowledge the fact that dissonance is harmony too.[/quote]

Funny, that's pretty much what I just told one of my group members yesterday. She says I've been very patient with a troublesome newbie and I don't deserve to have to deal with someone like that. I replied that I've gotten so much support and encouragement from the group since I took over as leader 5 months ago that it was time for something to change the balance, and I needed to do a little weeding instead of just smelling the roses.


[quote=Rick;3263463]Egos.

Let's face it, how many Wiccans do you meet that aren't a HP/HPS, and a Reiki master? Or Heathens that aren't a Gothi/Gythia, and a rune master (I claim neither, BTW)?

Too many stud ducks in the farm pond.

***waves hand in air***
Well, it wasn't my idea to become the HPS of our Grove.
And I'm only a lowly Reiki 1 practicioner, not a Master.

[PandoraHealer]

i think its just like animal rescue groups.
there is a group here locally that just went down big time for having some VERY unhealthy dogs- emaciated and 1/2 dead....
she had let the rescue get out of control- too many dogs- not enough money or volunteers... she was someone I knew well and many people had offered her help to get her numbers down- she refused.

when she did finally go down- the other groups jumped all over her. ripped her apart- and most of those people that had tried to help before- we in the mob too-
badmouthing her, saying horrible things about the rescue- most of which was NOT true.
she did have many sick near dead animals but the other groups made it much worse.....

i've tried myself to team up with other reptile rescues- they all seem to be territorial... i have also recently found myself to be territorial- I had a call from someone last week wanting me to help them get cages and donations and get paperwork for incorperation done..... all i could think was- "i've worked my butt off to get the things i have- why should i help someone else get by easy when it was so hard for me?"
I stopped myself and told the guy about the paperwork and he picked up some of my empty tanks- I had some 15 in the shed that were just taking up room....

I think its really a dog eat dog world out there- in all aspects of life. humans will be humans and humans are nothing but animals.....

i wish it was different- but its not- and its depressing....

BB-PH

[aluokaloo]

ahahahahahahah rick! stud ducks?? that cracks me up!!

[cheddarsox]

We may be lumped together under the term "pagan", but for many, the similarities stop there. I don't go out of my way to start trouble, but there are many teachings and practices I don't agree with or think are dangerous or stupid, and I wont put away my brain or integrity just to "play nice".

I won't pretend to be Wiccan or act Wiccan because that makes it easier for the local "all pagans welcome" group come ritual time. I won't talk Goddess talk, because that's what "pagans" do.

Some people think that not 'caving" to what they decide "pagan" is...is being stubborn and unsupportive, but it isn't, it is just being honest.

coven to coven infighting sounds more like a problem within a specific trad, not merely a pagan to pagan issue.

I won't tolerate bad behavior in someone else just because their pagan in some attempt to be supportive and force community. I only support what I believe is worthwhile, and I don't choose to be in community with those that I have no respect for.

If paganism means supporting everything any pagan chooses as personal belief and behavior...count me out.

[Tullip Troll]

buttholes exist in all forms, pagans, christians whatever.

However you would think Pagans would be a little more open minded about each others differences and show more respect, but nope were still all evangilists at heart .

[Fiamma]

buttholes exist in all forms, pagans, christians whatever.

However you would think Pagans would be a little more open minded about each others differences and show more respect, but nope were still all evangilists at heart .


The bottom line is that we're human. We're no better than anyone else. The mere fact that we're pagan doesn't make us more respectful or open-minded, and it hasd nothing to do with evangelism....I've known quite a few Evangelical Christians who were far more open-minded than some pagans I've met. In the last year that I lived in Pennsylvania, back in late 2002-early 2003, I ended up hanging out a lot with some students from Lancaster Bible College (take a look at the website, http://www.lbc.edu and get an idea of just what level of evangelical we're talking about) and never in that time did I ever have any clashes or personality conflicts with any of them, never did any of them try to tell me what I should think or do or believe. On one occasion, I came to the school and spoke for a class...all of the class members were very respectful, and again, not one ever tried to tell me I was wrong, or what I should believe....yeah, this has nothing to do with evangelism.

[ap Dafydd]

Not sure that things are quite as bad as they are made out to be though...

On the whole, I think most of us get on fairly well despite not all following the same path.

When things get stroppy, a lot of the time it's over personalities (and I do like the metaphor about the stud ducks!) and you'll never get around that in any field, be it religious, political, or whatever.

Sadly though, sometimes there are folk around who have had a surfeit of Llewellyn Wicca and find that the digestive remedy that wiser and more experienced Pagans give them can be unpalatable. In those circumstances, then it's just a matter of holding their noses, tipping it down their throats, and turning a blind ear to any tantrums!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Tullip Troll]

The bottom line is that we're human. We're no better than anyone else. The mere fact that we're pagan doesn't make us more respectful or open-minded, and it hasd nothing to do with evangelism....I've known quite a few Evangelical Christians who were far more open-minded than some pagans I've met. In the last year that I lived in Pennsylvania, back in late 2002-early 2003, I ended up hanging out a lot with some students from Lancaster Bible College (take a look at the website, http://www.lbc.edu and get an idea of just what level of evangelical we're talking about) and never in that time did I ever have any clashes or personality conflicts with any of them, never did any of them try to tell me what I should think or do or believe. On one occasion, I came to the school and spoke for a class...all of the class members were very respectful, and again, not one ever tried to tell me I was wrong, or what I should believe....yeah, this has nothing to do with evangelism.

Evangelism as in we all want to preach what we think is right, has nothing to do with evangelical christians

[Rick]

Being Pagan doesn't always equate to being tolerant or accepting.
EXACTLY! I'm neither of those. I've also recently been accused of being a geographist (I think it refers to one's ability to fold maps)...


[quote=Fiamma;3263383] ***waves hand in air***
Well, it wasn't my idea to become the HPS of our Grove.
And I'm only a lowly Reiki 1 practicioner, not a Master.
Lunie, dear, you've earned every inch of it. But many of us have met HP Lord Almighty or HPS Lady High Brow, that can name their 'lineage' back to Crowley. They are usually a coven of one or two...

Evangelism as in we all want to preach what we think is right, has nothing to do with evangelical christians
Hmm... I know (live & in person) probably a couple hundred Paganish folk. I know some that'll ramble on if asked, but I don't know any proselytizers.

[Lunacie]

EXACTLY! I'm neither of those. I've also recently been accused of being a geographist (I think it refers to one's ability to fold maps)...

I thought maybe it had something to do with a fascination with maps. **ponders** Nah, maybe that's a geoholic. ;)

"Hello, my name is Lunacie and I'm a geoholic. "




Lunie, dear, you've earned every inch of it. But many of us have met HP Lord Almighty or HPS Lady High Brow, that can name their 'lineage' back to Crowley. They are usually a coven of one or two...

Hmm... I know (live & in person) probably a couple hundred Paganish folk. I know some that'll ramble on if asked, but I don't know any proselytizers.

**blushes** Aw, thank you Ricky. I can only trace my lineage back to my first teacher, my ex husband. Either he didn't have permission to "out" his own teachers, or maybe lineage just wasn't important to him either. My group isn't a "coven" it's a "grove" but I'm proud to say that it's grown from a group of 5 to a group of 8, and there are 3 newbies who are interested in joining us. Not a pretender in the bunch!

I don't know nearly that many Pagan folks but none of the ones I know are dedicated to convincing everyone they meet that theirs is the best religion for everybody.

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

i did'nt mean, that just because we're all pagan, we should get along. i realize that one strict wiccan coven, is going to completely dissagree with a coven of a left handed path,. i'm talking about why similar coven's feel the need to back bite one another,. before i moved recently, there was an awsome group that told us that missouri has'nt had a pagan pride in years, because other pagan's were rising against it,(bindings-etc),.and i always hear so much coven vs. coven ,when they both practice the same thing. it's just rediculous to me.(then i move and hear more, and i'm constantly hearing about it from my online friends as well.

of course there's going to be asshole's and people you just can't get along with, but what about all the author bashing i've heard (someone said something earlier about llewellyn publications) that and azure green are the primary circulation for our resources, right? and the way i see it, since all magick is a simple 3 parts, without ever lighting a single candle, 1-intention (what do you want) 2-how are you going to get it & 3-manifestation,.so who's to say that so many author's are full of crap? unless of course they're trying to make a strong point, with a dull blade, and have poor/wrong information,.

be blessed,
drake

[Fiamma]

I don't know about anyone else, but that font is completely impossible to read on my screen. Could you consider maybe converting it back to the default font?



i did'nt mean, that just because we're all pagan, we should get along. i realize that one strict wiccan coven, is going to completely dissagree with a coven of a left handed path,. i'm talking about why similar coven's feel the need to back bite one another,. before i moved recently, there was an awsome group that told us that missouri has'nt had a pagan pride in years, because other pagan's were rising against it,(bindings-etc),.and i always hear so much coven vs. coven ,when they both practice the same thing. it's just rediculous to me.(then i move and hear more, and i'm constantly hearing about it from my online friends as well.

of course there's going to be asshole's and people you just can't get along with, but what about all the author bashing i've heard (someone said something earlier about llewellyn publications) that and azure green are the primary circulation for our resources, right? and the way i see it, since all magick is a simple 3 parts, without ever lighting a single candle, 1-intention (what do you want) 2-how are you going to get it & 3-manifestation,.so who's to say that so many author's are full of crap? unless of course they're trying to make a strong point, with a dull blade, and have poor/wrong information,.

be blessed,
drake

[~Elise~]

Amen--PLULEEEEZZZEE change that font.

[Lunacie]

I second... er, third the motion about the font. Otherwise I'll never know whether you have something interesting to say because I can't read your posts. Please?

[Rick]

i did'nt mean, that just because we're all pagan, we should get along. i realize that one strict wiccan coven, is going to completely dissagree with a coven of a left handed path,. i'm talking about why similar coven's feel the need to back bite one another,. before i moved recently, there was an awsome group that told us that missouri has'nt had a pagan pride in years, because other pagan's were rising against it,(bindings-etc),.and i always hear so much coven vs. coven ,when they both practice the same thing. it's just rediculous to me. (then i move and hear more, and i'm constantly hearing about it from my online friends as well.
Pfft. Anyone that wants to organize a PPD can put one on. And anyone that doesn't want to support it or attend doesn't have to. I don't support or attend the local PPD here, nor will as long as it's being put on by people that I wouldn't cross the street to piss on if they were on fire. But that's just me... I'll tell folks how I feel about the local PPD promoters & why, but I don't tell anyone "don't go"...


of course there's going to be asshole's and people you just can't get along with, but what about all the author bashing i've heard
Well... what about it? If someone's full of crap, they're full of crap. Sometimes being published just means you're a bag of crap who's work has been published.


(someone said something earlier about llewellyn publications) that and azure green are the primary circulation for our resources, right?
Hardly


and the way i see it, since all magick is a simple 3 parts, without ever lighting a single candle, 1-intention (what do you want) 2-how are you going to get it & 3-manifestation,.
Well, that's you're opinion. You might have a valid opinion, or you might be full of crap. In my opinion, those are the steps necessary to rob a bank... but ya have to add 4-getaway (but then, I might be full of crap :hehehehe: ).


so who's to say that so many author's are full of crap? unless of course they're trying to make a strong point, with a dull blade, and have poor/wrong information,.
The people plunkin' down their hard-earned change are who's to say.

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

i did'nt mean, that just because we're all pagan, we should get along. i realize that one strict wiccan coven, is going to completely dissagree with a coven of a left handed path,. i'm talking about why similar coven's feel the need to back bite one another,. before i moved recently, there was an awsome group that told us that missouri has'nt had a pagan pride in years, because other pagan's were rising against it,(bindings-etc),.and i always hear so much coven vs. coven ,when they both practice the same thing. it's just rediculous to me.(then i move and hear more, and i'm constantly hearing about it from my online friends as well.

of course there's going to be asshole's and people you just can't get along with, but what about all the author bashing i've heard (someone said something earlier about llewellyn publications) that and azure green are the primary circulation for our resources, right? and the way i see it, since all magick is a simple 3 parts, without ever lighting a single candle, 1-intention (what do you want) 2-how are you going to get it & 3-manifestation,.so who's to say that so many author's are full of crap? unless of course they're trying to make a strong point, with a dull blade, and have poor/wrong information,.

be blessed,
drake

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

so rick,.you're apparently very much so apposed to ppd (won't break bread with people you would'nt piss on to save their life) you're pagan but hate the other's that bad? (i don't get it)

instant magick is a simple 3 parts,.and of course, for greater potency, load up your alter, gather herbs, do it on the right moon phase/planetary alighnment/day of the week/ numberology etc,..

so who are the other apparently well better informed occult stores to get books from?

[Freyaschild]

I'm just addressing the original post here, because I have a theory.

I have often wondered what people think they gain by putting down other traditions or those who may (or may not) have less knowledge, or newer in their discovery of their path. And there seems to be no community that is completely free from the syndrome.

In my opinion, it's old habits that we brought with us from our less enlightened times. We've learned new religions and spirituality but not a new way of thinking, not all of us have broadened our hearts along with our minds. We're following tired old examples from how "other" religions conduct themselves.

Paganism as we know it today, is very new and as enlightened and 'smart' as we like to think we are, we're still finding our way, and we still have a long way to go. I'm hoping it's just a matter of time, an hopefully sooner than later.

[Greybird]

so rick,.you're apparently very much so apposed to ppd (won't break bread with people you would'nt piss on to save their life) you're pagan but hate the other's that bad? (i don't get it)

There is a pagan group in my area. They don't run a PPD, but they do some benevolent community functions. Great idea. The problem is, while there are some great folks involved, the group is run by some egotistical, unethical individuals who manipulate and backstab, doing the positive things mainly so they can put it on their 'pagan resume' and watch the rest of the community stroke their egos. I've seen them set up intentional conflicts so that they can come in and play hero.

Now, why would I support a group of unethical people just because they have a hat that says 'Pagan' on it?

As to books and authors. Books are a single individual's opinion. They are no more authoritative than any individual who might wander in here and post their thoughts. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Manson and OJ all wrote books. Heck, I've been published four times, and if they'll put my stuff in print, they'll put anybody's!

Anyway, all you need to be an author is a few tens of thousands of words that someone thinks will make money. You don't have to be smart, right, ethical, or even close to the truth. If Joe Author (*cough* Conway, Monroe *cough*) publishes a book that is full of it, and I talk about that book, I'm going to say that it is full of it. Doing otherwise would be dishonest. Why would I lie?

[Rick]

First, Drake, thanks for toning down your font.


so rick,.you're apparently very much so apposed to ppd (won't break bread with people you would'nt piss on to save their life) you're pagan but hate the other's that bad? (i don't get it)
Nope, not opposed to PPD at all, helped put on the first one in Tulsa (in spite of the court injunction filed to stop it). I'm four-square opposed to the people that now organize the local PPD. Supporting an event put on by my enemies (yes, enemies... people that wish me harm) would be... hell, I don't even have words to describe it... hypocritical, dishonorable... stoopid...

And I'm Heathen, not Pagan. I don't hate anyone. But I won't associate with unethical, egomaniacal, dishonest & dishonorable people of any stripe, especialy Uttgarthers.


instant magick is a simple 3 parts,.and of course, for greater potency, load up your alter, gather herbs, do it on the right moon phase/planetary alighnment/day of the week/ numberology etc,..
Instant magic is as simple as whispering a rune.


so who are the other apparently well better informed occult stores to get books from?
Of course I own books published by Llewellyn, & have purchased products from Azure Green. But neither of these are the sum total of their respective areas of merchandise. Do a little research. And I always recommend buying locally when possible (of course, there aren't occult shops on every corner). I've also found that, even here in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, the local library is an invaluable resource for occult books.


There is a pagan group in my area. They don't run a PPD, but they do some benevolent community functions. Great idea. The problem is, while there are some great folks involved, the group is run by some egotistical, unethical individuals who manipulate and backstab, doing the positive things mainly so they can put it on their 'pagan resume' and watch the rest of the community stroke their egos. I've seen them set up intentional conflicts so that they can come in and play hero.

Now, why would I support a group of unethical people just because they have a hat that says 'Pagan' on it?

As to books and authors. Books are a single individual's opinion. They are no more authoritative than any individual who might wander in here and post their thoughts. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Manson and OJ all wrote books. Heck, I've been published four times, and if they'll put my stuff in print, they'll put anybody's!

Anyway, all you need to be an author is a few tens of thousands of words that someone thinks will make money. You don't have to be smart, right, ethical, or even close to the truth. If Joe Author (*cough* Conway, Monroe *cough*) publishes a book that is full of it, and I talk about that book, I'm going to say that it is full of it. Doing otherwise would be dishonest. Why would I lie?
Amen (that's Olde School for QFT). Those folks you speak of sound exactly like the folks I spoke of.

[TheWomanMonster]

Instant magic is as simple as whispering a rune.


Or thought + intent + energy. ;)

On the original topic,
my thoughts are, people are people, pagan or not.
And just because we believe the same, similar or totally different things doesn't mean we should, can, or cannot get along.

:p

[MonSno_LeeDra]

*D*R*A*K*E*,

I think your question has too many variables to give a complete answer to for the scope is simply to large. However, I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

I think your dealing with a generational thing here on some levels. Their are still a great many that relate to or connect to what one might call an original path concept. They are the core element that brough many of the paths into the light of day. They bared their literal "soul" to the world and laid the foundation for all that follows.

In talking with many of them thier is a sense of betrayal of thier beliefs and actual religion. What they defined as "Wicca" "Strega" "Witchcraft" "Family Trad", etc are frequently far from what the "Today" defination is. I personaly get upset when I see people speaking about something that was taught to me within the confines of a Family Trad that is taken drasticaly out of content for what I was taught.

Your dealing with a sense of self that is being swept aside or away within the tidal surge of "Wicca". Everyone seems to think only of Wicca when outside the Pagan umbrella. Literaly Wicca is the assumption that a majority of people think of when you mentiojn being something other than an Abrahamic relgion.

Those that greatly differ from the "Wiccan" stamp are struggling to seperate their beliefs and morales from the "Wiccan Rede" and "Law of Three" and other Wiccan catch phrases. The blanket stamp of "And it harm none" is so stifling to many that have no adherance to it. Yet the very stamp is what is spoken of when they don't do as the NeoWiccans do.

Many "Wiccan's" are struggling within the confines of the Wiccan religion on just what is Wicca. Every popular author coming along and creating a new generation of "Wiccan" practices and dogma. Wedges driven into the very core concept of what the religion is and who actually can claim the title.

A wedge driven in and barriers rasied when the concept of "Wicca" becomes the picture painted of what a "Witch" is. More discontent as non religious "Witches" try to gain their identify from the Wiccan umbrella and its religious connection. Religious "Witches" trying ot gain thier identy from the same stamp.

Now if all this is occuring on individual levels then extrapolate the affect / effect within the Coven scenario. A few that come together and the assumption is that since they are "_______" then they must have the same goals, beliefs, orientation, etc. Not even looking at the possibility they may not be of your "Flavor" of the religion so would not support your "Flavor".

To many new age authors speaking about this belief or that belief and writing thier books about it. Yet the reader not even looking at the fact only the names where changed the supposed belief structor the same. So Celtic Recon becomes Celtic Wicca or Druidism. Runes become Ancient Wiccan artifacts. The burning times becomes some global 'Battle cry" and the criers never even realize it had nothing to do with what they cry about, only a line lifted from another book because it caught the public imagination and eye.

Nope to many angels to correct and overcome before one can even hope to gleem a "Unified" Pagan / Heathen concept. Too much outside dogma carried into the current "Identity" of what a given religious belief is actually about. Too many conflicts to be resolved before one group will recognize another.

Too many Buffy's, too many Charmed ones, to many shake and bake pagans, to many psuedo histories. Respect for another and support of them, never going to happen as long as each group believes they are being wronged or falsely grouped with the others that they don't recognize as truthful to begin with.

[~Elise~]

okay--WHY would you even want a unified Pagan/Heathen concept????

Paganism is as individual as the person... I wouldn't want a cookie cutter paganism... please refrain from trying to make paganism like a mainstream religion. If we wanted a mainstream cookie cutter religion, we'd still be there.

JMO and obviously YMMV

Elise

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Elise wrote:



okay--WHY would you even want a unified Pagan/Heathen concept????


I did not say a codified or dogmatic religion I said a unified pagan / heathen concept. ie a single unit of purpose that stands as a single front to gain a desired goal.

That will not be achieved until the difference within the community are recognized not as points of opposition but differences that can be overcome to achieve a single focale point.

Basically, united we stand devided we fall. A concept that has nothing to do with individual religious concepts but the ability to pull together as a coehesive unit to represent itself and gain the desired results the complete community wants.

At this point in time the very lack of a uniform stance is what enables the Abrahamic religions to oppose the full recognization of the various religious beliefs that fall under the Pagan / Heathen umbrella.



Paganism is as individual as the person


Historically no. It's as indiviudal as the social grouping and regional grouping that practiced it. It is only today that the self interest facet of the religion is being pushed in favor of the "one" vice the favor of the greater community that practiced it.

Where it a pracitce of "one" then nothing would have come down to tell us anything of what the ancient religions where like.

So no its a slant of indiviudalism today not as a religious practice as conceived.

[~Elise~]

Self interest is not what I meant (although that is prevalant thoughout, I agree). I don't think that someone is wrong for not believing as I do, but I also know that they have their right to believe as they want. (doesn't mean I don't laugh to myself at them though)

And I agree that we need to present a more united front (I should believe that as I"m a regional VP for Pagan Unity Campaign)--but there is never going to be ONE defintion, unfortunately.

But, I don't want to see this wonderful coat of many colors become the same as everyone else's-(dingy and stifiling) and I can see that happening.

Elise

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Elise wrote:



). I don't think that someone is wrong for not believing as I do, but I also know that they have their right to believe as they want. (doesn't mean I don't laugh to myself at them though)



I couldn't agree more. Unfornatuely I think many today find the questioning of thier beliefs to be an attack. Granted from some that is a true feeling yet from others its more a method to understand but we are faced with the common problem of inability to communicate our question without the person reading it as an attack.



And I agree that we need to present a more united front (I should believe that as I"m a regional VP for Pagan Unity Campaign)--but there is never going to be ONE defintion, unfortunately.



I agree. I think if we could get past the concept of a global defination of what we are we might actually be able to unify to a degree for our common good. To my perspective it would almost be better if we collectively fell under the "Non-Abrahamic" religions than using thier termonolgy for us.



But, I don't want to see this wonderful coat of many colors become the same as everyone else's-(dingy and stifiling) and I can see that happening


Unfortunately I have to agree. The uniqueness we have as different paths could be lost in the race for personal gain, rcognization and ritches.

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

okay--WHY would you even want a unified Pagan/Heathen concept????

Paganism is as individual as the person... I wouldn't want a cookie cutter paganism... please refrain from trying to make paganism like a mainstream religion. If we wanted a mainstream cookie cutter religion, we'd still be there.

JMO and obviously YMMV

Elise

true, each person's specific path/gods/altar/general practice etc... will vary, but back to the roots, ancient aztec,incan,mian,celtic,roman,native american, EVERY pagan has the roots, each has different dieties, but dieties nonetheless, primary god and goddess/ spirits, and of course the elements, water,earth,air,fire (spirit,metal,wood) and the celebration of the years cycle

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

Of course I own books published by Llewellyn, & have purchased products from Azure Green. But neither of these are the sum total of their respective areas of merchandise. Do a little research. And I always recommend buying locally when possible (of course, there aren't occult shops on every corner). I've also found that, even here in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, the local library is an invaluable resource for occult books.

i utilize the library, and local bookstores, but the basis of my origional question, was that (as far as i know) the primary sourse for most places, are azure green and llewellyn, (they get the wholesale cost, and make their resale profit to match their supplier.

i was just wondering if there was more reputable base sources, seeing as how so many pagan's have such a HUGE issue with 'llewellyn publications'

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

Paganism as we know it today, is very new and as enlightened and 'smart' as we like to think we are, we're still finding our way, and we still have a long way to go. I'm hoping it's just a matter of time, an hopefully sooner than later.

like i said earlier, yes since the christian destruction of most of our heritage by catholicism, <<(guess that's "what jesus would do") pretty much all we have to work with is a new spin on old ways, but the fact of the matter remains the same, no matter what the practice, or path, the basics remain the same, and i can sum it all up in 3 words, dieties and elements so we develope our 'neo' ways, fill in the gaps, and through much meditation, and invokations, we all learn how to please our gods, the way they wish to be worshiped, utilized, what sacrifices they like best, etc..

[Sethserpenthus]

why does it seem,that rather than working together in
harmony,(some) pagan's that claim they only wish good for their fellow
man,bring chaotic wishes?

Personally I don't believe I've ever claimed to wish nothing but good for my fellow man. I know you specified "some" Pagans, but I thought I'd share anyway...

[Sethserpenthus]

And I agree that we need to present a more united front (I should believe that as I"m a regional VP for Pagan Unity Campaign)--but there is never going to be ONE defintion, unfortunately.

Personally, I don't think the problem is so much that it's difficult to give one solid, accurate definition of "Paganism" or a united cause as much as there are too many people who are Pagans who are more than happy to put things into that definition and cause which are specific to them and present them as something which is stood for by Paganism as a whole, then whine about it when people say otherwise.

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

i did'nt mean, that just because we're all pagan, we should get along. i realize that one strict wiccan coven, is going to completely dissagree with a coven of a left handed path,. i'm talking about why similar coven's feel the need to back bite one another,. before i moved recently, there was an awsome group that told us that missouri has'nt had a pagan pride in years, because other pagan's were rising against it,(bindings-etc),.and i always hear so much coven vs. coven ,when they both practice the same thing. it's just rediculous to me.(then i move and hear more, and i'm constantly hearing about it from my online friends as well.
of course there's going to be asshole's and people you just can't get along with.
be blessed,
drake

apparently this bears repeating, due to the volume of issues with my initial statement.

p.s. sorry, did'nt mean to spam, but i do'nt quite have the hang of the multi quote feature yet.

[Theres]

And I agree that we need to present a more united front...
why?

[Rick]

<snip>the fact of the matter remains the same, no matter what the practice, or path, the basics remain the same, and i can sum it all up in 3 words, dieties and elements <snip>
You have SOOOOOO much research into the various Pagan & Pagani-ish religions (and world religions in general) to do before you can make blanket statements like that ('cuz if you'd already done it, you'd see the assininity of making blanket statements like that). It's mightily presumptious to speak for all followers of all practices & paths everywhere, unless you have actually practiced all paths everywhere.... sorta borders on disrespect.

I actually get what you're saying: Pagans should focus on their "alikes" rather than their "differents."

Getting many people to agree on much of anything is like herding cats; getting many people to agree on much of anything relating to a subject as emotionally charged as religion is like herding tigers. Even if you can get a bunch of 'em into the corral, they probably aren't gonna be real happy or cooperative.

People are gonna disagree. It's what makes conversations worth having. Otherwise, they'd all go somethin' like:

"I think XYZ."
"Yeah, me, too."
"OK, then."
<insert cricket sounds here>





And I agree that we need to present a more united front...why?
Oh, I dunno... getting Pagan symbols of faith on the gravestones of fallen servicemen... not losing a child custody case simply because you're a witch & therefore must be a Satanist (which in many jurisdictions in Texas & Oklahoma automatically place you not only in the 'unfit parent' category, but in the 'dangerous - supervised visits only' category)... I'm sure there are more, but it's late & I'm tired...

[Theres]

Oh, I dunno... getting Pagan symbols of faith on the gravestones of fallen servicemen... not losing a child custody case simply because you're a witch & therefore must be a Satanist (which in many jurisdictions in Texas & Oklahoma automatically place you not only in the 'unfit parent' category, but in the 'dangerous - supervised visits only' category)... I'm sure there are more, but it's late & I'm tired...
ooohhhhh... politiganism.
now i gotcha.

[~Elise~]

ooohhhhh... politiganism.
now i gotcha.

And presenting a united front to stand up for YOUR rights and those of others is bad why?????

There is a mother RIGHT NOW facing losing her child and has been arrested for nothing more than being a 'practicing witch'... why is presenting a united front to protect her right to practice the religion of HER choice a bad thing? They'll be coming for the rest of us next... IF WE DON'T SPEAK UP AND STAND TOGETHER.

and those of us who do not fall under the "Big 3" need to stand together to make sure that we have something to continue standing for because if you don't stand together, there won't be anyone to speak for you when they come for you. I don't have to believe like you do, but you have the right to believe whatever way that is...

That is why...

Elise

[Vigdisdotter]

Evangelism as in we all want to preach what we think is right

I can't agree with that. Myself and most of the people I deal with are happy to discuss what they've found useful/good in their path/practise/beliefs. But that's a far cry from "preaching."

[Greybird]

EVERY pagan has the roots, each has different dieties, but dieties nonetheless, primary god and goddess/ spirits, and of course the elements, water,earth,air,fire (spirit,metal,wood) and the celebration of the years cycle

That isn't even remotely accurate. Some pagans don't celebrate a single holiday, recognize the year as a cycle, or recognize the existence of elements. Some (notably some pantheists and animists) don't even recognize the existence of deities.

Now, if you want to say we should get along better then I agree. The common thread is that we're human, not the details of our religion.

[*D*R*A*K*E*]

well for the most part anyway, and especially back in the days of old it was that way, it wasn't until recently that people in rebellion to christianity, or society said "i'm a pagan" (yet don't practice anything, celebrate the wheel of the year, follow any path/pantheon, or believe in much)

if i'm wrong, please correct me, but tell me what nationality/time frame rather than saying "uhm, no you're wrong" simply because paganism is as various and complex as each individual's dna

thanks for the feedback it's been interesting thus far

[LadyCelt]

Just like any other system of belief, people are still people. Paganism isn't excluded from that.