Oops! Ceremonial faux pas.

[Becoming]

So, today my son (6) and I attended a Native American public ceremony to usher in the Fall and honor the equinox (among other business). I had never attended a ceremony hosted by these folks, and there was approximately 100 people attending. Well, at one point while everybody was in circle, my son had to go to the bathroom, which was located on the top of a hill overlooking everyone. While he was doing his business, I seized the oppertunity to take a picture with my cell phone since I had a great view of the proceedings. I did not know that this is a well known social blunder, as, apparently, photos are not appreciated during ceremony. I pretty much knew it would be disrespectful to take one if I was in the circle, but I did not feel atthe time that I was encroaching or breaking any rules by taking one from the top of the hill. Anyway, after shouts of "No photos" rang through the air, I saw my mistake, and ended up not taking any, afterall. I realise now that I should have asked, my fault. Ugh. How embarassing. But what I was wondering was this. I have taken pictures (unobtrusively, of course) at pagan festivals and circles, and no one ever minded. Most people ask to see them when I get them developed, or when ever I have them downloaded onto my computer. So, is this something confined to Native American ceremonies, or have I been photographically blundersome all along? What are your prefrences???

[~Elise~]

there are lots of people who are not OUT of the broom closet and don't want to be photographed at events. Random pic taking is a bad thing if you don't have everyone's permission. And it is esp. bad if you end up posting them on a website. You could end up making someone lose their job or cause family divisions.

NEVER during ceremony would be MY rule (and is). But we take pics before and after, like at Samhain. But, our pics are never public -- the ones I posted here on MW are of the Altars themselves and none of my people-unless I know it's okay.

MY humble opinion that it is an insult to the organizers and to the Gods to do something like that without express permission, no matter how far away you are.

YMMV

Elise

[Becoming]

In todays case, I just wanted a cell phone pic to show my friend who could not make it. I totally understand about (not) being out of the broom closet, and would NEVER post things publicly. The last few times I took pics at ceremony, I gave the pics to the event organizer, and everyone knew that pictures of the event had been taken. I totally see my mistake today, since I didn't know most of the folks. I should have had more foresight. Ack.

[Merrilyn]

I have also been told that some Native Americans feel a bit of their spirit is taken away when a photo is taken of them. I don't know how much water that holds, but it could have been a factor.

Hmm..not sure.

[Becoming]

Merrilyn, I thought of that, actually. I remember thinking at the time that since the picture was from so far away, you couldn't possibly make out any facial features, so folks must have been worried about the spiritual aspect. Maybe that was it, I think I will ask the next time I speak with the people hosting.

[Sabriel MoonStar]

I think it typically depends on what you are taking pictures of. I was at Toronto PPD and took pictures of the sign, the Discordian hopscotch set up and DH (had someone take a picture of DH and I for me). Nobody seemed to have a problem with it.

The rule of thumb seems to be pictures of stuff and people who give permission is fine. Pictures of random people aren't. Then again that's the rule of thumb I follow almost everywhere. My Ideas and Images teacher in college learned that lesson the hard way. I really don't feel the need to have to test it out myself. ;)

I figure, just 'cause I'm scrap booking the photos doesn't mean everyone with a camera is. You never know what people with cameras might do with the photos once they walk away. Besides, if the pages turn out good I want to be able to post them. I don't post layouts with pictures of other people (like DH's family)

[Freyaschild]

It's just my personal opinion that taking pictures makes a serious ceremony feel like a spectator sport. I don't mind it so much after or before a circle.

[Lunacie]

Native Americans cast a Circle? :huh:

[Becoming]

Well, not 'casting' exactly. Everyone was honoring the four directions, Mother Earth, and Spirit in a circle formation. Everything was performed in a clockwise direction, with respect to elders first, mothers w/ children, women, and then men. It was not exactly like the circle cast ritually; everyone was free to come and go if they needed to without the fear of breaking the circle of energy, but energy being raised as part of a community was mentioned and honored.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

They don't cast a circle , per se , but the pipe ceremony ,
is a four directional , plus earth and sky , thus six ,
honoring , which defines a hoop and sphere of ritual
and sacred space...very respectfully said...or any method ,
depending on the tribe , or tribes , present...

Merrilyn is correct...old tradition...

A person , taking a person's image , steals a person's
soul...a thief...

However , there are certain positions of certain poles ,
and objects , held sacred for ritual reasons , they do
not want photographed...there are other reasons...

[Lunacie]

Well, not 'casting' exactly. Everyone was honoring the four directions, Mother Earth, and Spirit in a circle formation. Everything was performed in a clockwise direction, with respect to elders first, mothers w/ children, women, and then men. It was not exactly like the circle cast ritually; everyone was free to come and go if they needed to without the fear of breaking the circle of energy, but energy being raised as part of a community was mentioned and honored.

Maybe that's what they call the Medicine Wheel?
Energy raising... New Age comes to the Native Americans too I suppose.

[David19]

So, today my son (6) and I attended a Native American public ceremony to usher in the Fall and honor the equinox (among other business). I had never attended a ceremony hosted by these folks, and there was approximately 100 people attending. Well, at one point while everybody was in circle, my son had to go to the bathroom, which was located on the top of a hill overlooking everyone. While he was doing his business, I seized the oppertunity to take a picture with my cell phone since I had a great view of the proceedings. I did not know that this is a well known social blunder, as, apparently, photos are not appreciated during ceremony. I pretty much knew it would be disrespectful to take one if I was in the circle, but I did not feel atthe time that I was encroaching or breaking any rules by taking one from the top of the hill. Anyway, after shouts of "No photos" rang through the air, I saw my mistake, and ended up not taking any, afterall. I realise now that I should have asked, my fault. Ugh. How embarassing. But what I was wondering was this. I have taken pictures (unobtrusively, of course) at pagan festivals and circles, and no one ever minded. Most people ask to see them when I get them developed, or when ever I have them downloaded onto my computer. So, is this something confined to Native American ceremonies, or have I been photographically blundersome all along? What are your prefrences???

I think some (or all) Native Americans have a belief that a photo of a person can contain a piece of the soul, and can be used against them by an evil sorcerer (if anyone knows any different, please feel free to correct me).

It probably wouldn't bother Pagans, but you could always ask them if they mind (sometimes, a person might not want a photo taken 'cause they don't want people knowing they're Pagan).

[Windsmith]

In our group, the rule is no photos during the ritual. Before or after, you can take all the pictures you want of the space, the altars, and any people who give you permission. But while the circle is up and the ritual is going on, it's N-O no. My wife and I like that approach so much we made it the rule for our handfasting, which is why there are no pictures of the ceremony itself. Drove our photographer friends nuts, but like Freyaschild said, we wanted everyone who was there to be there, fully present, not separating themselves from the experience by snapping pictures.

[Jenett]

So, is this something confined to Native American ceremonies, or have I been photographically blundersome all along? What are your prefrences???

It varies, but in general, don't take photos unless it's made clear it's okay.

Other people have brought up some reasons, but here's a few others besides the 'people may not be out':

1) It can be distracting - the fact that people called out to you "No Photos" definitely indicates that people noticed, and that the ceremony got disrupted (however briefly) as a result.

2) Some people are very uncomfortable having their photo taken, just in general: it's not an 'out or not out' thing - but they have some reason (ranging from personal preference to a particular belief) that means they don't want to be photographed.

3) Some people are flash sensitive: I know someone who is very strobe/flashing light sensitive due to some neurological issues: a flash near her can spoil the entire rest of the event for her in some cases.

Someone mentioned Pagan Pride - the Pagan Prides are a sort of different situation, in that they're explicitly a public event. Even so, many of them have a photo policy, and some way to a) indicate people who don't want to be photographed (a ribbon is common) and b) some common policies (a common one is that you don't photograph mid-ritual, or mid-presentation, for example, but might ask if you could photograph an altar, a booth, etc. or a public space like an ancestor altar.)

[Becoming]

Wow. There are so many good reasons why people would not want pictures taken at these such events. Sigh. How embarrasing.

I guess the lesson(s) here are

a. Ask before taking pictures (duh) :excuseme:
b. Opportunities to learn don't always present themselves at the most convienient times, BUT, the point is, learning is taking place, and for that, I am always grateful.

I am hoping my mistake was viewed as a smallish blunder made by someone who was not entirely familiar with this groups tradition and rules. Being that it was an open ceremony, I really hope others understand that my mistake was an honest one.

[Sharpchick]

Native Americans cast a Circle? :huh:

The Medicine Wheel is round, after all. . .

[aluokaloo]

Merrilyn, I thought of that, actually. I remember thinking at the time that since the picture was from so far away, you couldn't possibly make out any facial features, so folks must have been worried about the spiritual aspect. Maybe that was it, I think I will ask the next time I speak with the people hosting.

actually it's kind of a common sense rule like if you went on vaca to disneyland, you wouldn't take a pic of someone else's kids, just for example. it's kinda the same thing.

[omar]

The Medicine wheel is a circle & they dance in a circle. Native Americans and some Christians believe taking a picture captures your soul.

[Lunacie]

The Medicine wheel is a circle & they dance in a circle. Native Americans and some Christians believe taking a picture captures your soul.

I doubt that they call it "a circle" as it seemed the OP was using the term, I simply wanted clarification.

[Greybird]

A few points:

~Saying "Native Americans do this" or "Native Americans don't do this" is generally wrong - there are thousands of tribes, each with different cultures. Any rule you can cite about what 'the Native Americans do' will have exceptions. Think of it as saying, "The Europeans do this" - lumping the Irish in with the French in with the Czechs.

~Native Americans don't generally believe that getting their photo taken takes their soul. That was a long, long time ago, and most are well aware of how photons work. They do, however, think it is rude and an invasion of privacy during certain religious observations. The same man that may get all bent out of shape getting his photo taken during a ceremony wouldn't bat an eyelash over getting it taken some other time. Attend a pow-wow sometime - there are very specific dances during which photos are acceptable, and some during which they are not.

~Native Americans (remember point #1, above) don't cast a circle, but they do sanctify and bless an area in which a ceremony is going to be held, generally by smudging and saying prayers/asking the blessings of the directions (not the same as, say, Wiccan quarters.) They do generally do things in a circle, and do generally move clockwise.