Tough Love

[Vigdisdotter]

Do you use tough love in your groups? How effective do you find it? Are there times when it's a really bad idea/response?

[Sharpchick]

Is it "touch" or "tough"? And if it's tough, then I'm not sure what you are asking exactly. . . and what kind of a group where tough love wielded by one adult on another adult would be appropriate?

The group of pagans I meet with is very informal and loosely structured by intent. (In fact, we sometimes have a difficult time keeping it from becoming hierarchical - one day when I have a chance, I'll research this apparently deep-seated need for humans to organize themselves into rigidly structured groups, even while complaining how they hate rigidly structured groups. ;) )

As a result, there is no boss, HP/HPS, leader or parliamentarian of our group. If someone makes a real clunker remark, someone else usually asks for clarification. Most of us are far enough down our own personal paths that we do not feel the need to comment on each and every remark that is made in discussion, because we know that in such discussions, each one of us can take what is useful and keep the remainder as an example of a piece of knowledge that might come in handy at some point in the future. Most everyone starts her/his own remarks with words to the effect of "this is how I see it, etc."

At one point, we did have a couple of people - both men if gender could be relevant - who seemed to want to find a group for which they could be in charge. As I said before, we don't want that kind of structure in our group, so each of the two individuals came down gently on his backside - well, one pretty much thudded - but it was because of group dynamics that just worked together.

Am I on the same track as you with the question?

[Vigdisdotter]

Is it "touch" or "tough"?

Sorry. It's "tough" love. I've edited my post.

And if it's tough, then I'm not sure what you are asking exactly. . . and what kind of a group where tough love wielded by one adult on another adult would be appropriate?

Now I'm confused. It sounds like you already know what I'm asking but don't approve of it. So are you wanting me to clerify or have you already made up your own mind?

As a result, there is no boss, HP/HPS, leader or parliamentarian of our group.

What does that have to do with whether or not a "tough love" approach is used?

[Twinkle]

I utilize tough love, at times. I gauge the person I'm using it on, first...and I don't use it as my first choice.

It's only when gentle attempts have been made first, and the person is still caught up in ego and ignorance do I use it.

I use it as a kick in the butt....to jar a person into awareness.

Sometimes it's appropriate.

[Lunacie]

I'm very new at being a leader but I've already had to do some tough love. We had two friends ask to join the group with the possibility of becoming members at some point. One has always been a solitary and it took her a few classes and rituals to figure out whether she wanted to work with a group, and could fit in. She is doing fine now and is becoming a very valued and loved member of the group.

But the other one came from a much more structured and much larger group that fell apart amid much tumult a couple of years ago. She has been searching for something to replace that sense of community and came in thinking she could change us into the kind of group she wanted and was used to. Which didn't fly. At all. :lol:

It took me a while to find my footing (with a lot of support and encouragement from the rest of the group) for me to tell her that she wasn't fitting in and that we couldn't let her continue to disrupt the group. I did say that I wished her well and hoped that she could read back through my emails and could find some kind of peace, and that she would be welcome to try again in the future (once she gets her head on straight).

Now, if it wasn't enough that I had to be tough with her, and meet her bluntness with some of my own when I'm not usually blunt at all, some of the group members thought I should cut all contact with her completely. And I had to be tough with them too and tell them that I can understand a lot of what she's been through and her need to find a group that could give her the support we all give to each other, and that I think everyone deserves a second chance if it looks like they are really trying to grow and evolve.

I'm learning that it's okay for me to step out of my comfort zone and be strong and somewhat blunt, tempering that with my natural tendency towards tact - which blunt people see as weak and "pussyfooting".

[Sharpchick]

Sorry. It's "tough" love. I've edited my post.



Now I'm confused. It sounds like you already know what I'm asking but don't approve of it. So are you wanting me to clerify or have you already made up your own mind?

No, I don't know what you are asking. What I was doing was saying IF it was as in the example, then. . .



What does that have to do with whether or not a "tough love" approach is used?

Because then I'd wonder who gets to decide if and when tough love is used, and why. Tough love is a concept that tends to be used in the context of discipline. I just haven't heard of the concept of one adult who is part of a pagan group disciplining another. Now if you are talking about coven practice, then I'd have to take your word for that - I'm not a member of a coven.

[Vigdisdotter]

No, I don't know what you are asking. What I was doing was saying IF it was as in the example, then. . .

Um, sorry, I just work up. What example? you just said that you didn't like the idea of adults doing it to each other without explanation of what you perceived "it" to be.

For the record, "tough love" is being hard on/brutally honest with those you care about. It's also making sure that they know you care, but that you aren't going to clean up their messes for them, that you expect them to take responsibility for themselves and deal with the outcomes of their actions.

Because then I'd wonder who gets to decide if and when tough love is used, and why. Tough love is a concept that tends to be used in the context of discipline. I just haven't heard of the concept of one adult who is part of a pagan group disciplining another. Now if you are talking about coven practice, then I'd have to take your word for that - I'm not a member of a coven.

You haven't heard of it? Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you need to get out more. How do you think pagan groups manage themselves? It's not some happy-go-lucky rainbow and puppy love phenomena, where just because everyone is pagan, they all get alone and no one ever steps over any lines.

The same goes for pagan teacher/student relationships as well as those of pagan peers. As the old saying goes, evil happens when good people do nothing. To say nothing about obvious problems is to allow them to continue, often to the detriment not only of the individual, but the community at large.

If I may make an observation, what you seem to be hung up on is a power over issue, not tough love itself wouldn't work unless there is respect on both sides. The person doing it has to first care enough about the person/situation to get involved. The person receiving has to care enough about the person giving it to take it to heart and really hear what is being said.

Tough love isn't about being cruel, it's about presenting a problem to someone in a way that will sink in. As someone else already mentioned, I also try to use other, more tactful methods first. But when those methods don't sink in, then it's time for tough love.

[Terra Mater]

I firmly believe that "tough love" is necessary in a group if you want it to be long lived.

If the members of your group are engaging in substance abuse, if you know one of your members is being domestically abused (or is an abuser) you must act for the welfare of your group. Tough love approaches to matters like these show the person that you think they are worth giving a second chance to, but in these matters there will not be a third chance.

The tough portion (removal from the group, criminal complaints, etc.) is delivered only if the love portion (getting therapy/counseling, susbstance testing if required, etc.) is not adhered to. Group support must be offered, both to monitor the situation and to assist in the member's recovery.

Cases of domestic abuse should be reported. If you are a teacher, doctor, or other form of "mandated reporter" you have to report what you know and may have to report if you have even a reasonable suspicion. Check the laws in your area to be sure.

I saw a case of domestic abuse between two members of one group end up tearing the group apart because it was mishandled. It is because of this that no matter how tempted a leader is to handle the counselling of these matters him/herself, it should always be handed over to impartial professionals. The leader of the group thought he could counsel both sides of the abuse. He was unable to stay impartial and the entire matter was played out before the entire group, with couples fighting over which of these two were at fault.

Another group I knew of had a member die at their largest gathering ever of an overdose. He had been showing signs of dependency for months before the event, but he was so important to getting things together for the event that everyone was worried about approaching him. They had decided to talk to him after the event was over, unfortunately, that was a couple of days too late. The investigation left that group scattered to the four winds.

I hope this helps, and if I can help further, just let me know.

[Sharpchick]

Um, sorry, I just work up. What example? you just said that you didn't like the idea of adults doing it to each other without explanation of what you perceived "it" to be.

For the record, "tough love" is being hard on/brutally honest with those you care about. It's also making sure that they know you care, but that you aren't going to clean up their messes for them, that you expect them to take responsibility for themselves and deal with the outcomes of their actions.



You haven't heard of it? Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you need to get out more. How do you think pagan groups manage themselves? It's not some happy-go-lucky rainbow and puppy love phenomena, where just because everyone is pagan, they all get alone and no one ever steps over any lines.

The same goes for pagan teacher/student relationships as well as those of pagan peers. As the old saying goes, evil happens when good people do nothing. To say nothing about obvious problems is to allow them to continue, often to the detriment not only of the individual, but the community at large.

If I may make an observation, what you seem to be hung up on is a power over issue, not tough love itself wouldn't work unless there is respect on both sides. The person doing it has to first care enough about the person/situation to get involved. The person receiving has to care enough about the person giving it to take it to heart and really hear what is being said.

Tough love isn't about being cruel, it's about presenting a problem to someone in a way that will sink in. As someone else already mentioned, I also try to use other, more tactful methods first. But when those methods don't sink in, then it's time for tough love.

I'll try the getting out thing more. I only get out with the group of 100+ (and different ones come at different times) about three times a month.

And no, although we have our share of folks who seem a bit odd at times, in the almost two years we've been gathering, no one has ever used tough love on someone else. I think we must not have the same formalized type of structure as what you are discussing.

[Vigdisdotter]

I'll try the getting out thing more. I only get out with the group of 100+ (and different ones come at different times) about three times a month.

And no, although we have our share of folks who seem a bit odd at times, in the almost two years we've been gathering, no one has ever used tough love on someone else. I think we must not have the same formalized type of structure as what you are discussing.

Must be nice. I haven't been so lucky. However I'm not talking about any "formalized group" setting (you seem stuck on that idea) but rather basic human interaction in a pagan context.

You still haven't explained what you think "tough love" is beyond a vague concept of "discipline" and I suspect that your definition is very different from mine.

[Lunacie]

I think in a large group "tough love" goes on behind the scenes for the most part, while in a small group there can be more concensus among all the members about whether there is a problem and what should be done about it. So unless one is the leader of a large group they might not be aware of the need for "tough love" or see it taking place.

[Sharpchick]

Using your definition of "tough love" which was being hard on/brutally honest with those you care about. It's also making sure that they know you care, but that you aren't going to clean up their messes for them, that you expect them to take responsibility for themselves and deal with the outcomes of their actions.

I'll appply it to what Terra Mater has written for examples of times you must use tough love

If the members of your group are engaging in substance abuse, if you know one of your members is being domestically abused (or is an abuser) you must act for the welfare of your group. Tough love approaches to matters like these show the person that you think they are worth giving a second chance to, but in these matters there will not be a third chance.

The tough portion (removal from the group, criminal complaints, etc.) is delivered only if the love portion (getting therapy/counseling, susbstance testing if required, etc.) is not adhered to. Group support must be offered, both to monitor the situation and to assist in the member's recovery.

Cases of domestic abuse should be reported. If you are a teacher, doctor, or other form of "mandated reporter" you have to report what you know and may have to report if you have even a reasonable suspicion. Check the laws in your area to be sure.

I saw a case of domestic abuse between two members of one group end up tearing the group apart because it was mishandled. It is because of this that no matter how tempted a leader is to handle the counselling of these matters him/herself, it should always be handed over to impartial professionals. The leader of the group thought he could counsel both sides of the abuse. He was unable to stay impartial and the entire matter was played out before the entire group, with couples fighting over which of these two were at fault.

Another group I knew of had a member die at their largest gathering ever of an overdose. He had been showing signs of dependency for months before the event, but he was so important to getting things together for the event that everyone was worried about approaching him. They had decided to talk to him after the event was over, unfortunately, that was a couple of days too late. The investigation left that group scattered to the four winds.

If a member of our group used illegal drugs at one of our meetings, or beat the heck out of her/his SO in front of us, I can well imagine that several of us would be on cell phones, calling the police, and in the example of the domestic violence, several would likely also physically intervene to 1) protect the person being attacked, and 2) subdue and hold the aggressor till the cops got there. (I think it would also probably happen that way if one person got physically violent with any other person, domestic battery or not.)

And while I cannot speak for the others in my group, I for one would not issue any warnings to my associate, I'd just do what I just said. Period.

But that would be for conduct that occurred in my presence - not for hearing that it happened somewhere, sometime, etc. If a battered partner came to me and confided in me about domestic violence, I would listen and encourage the injured partner to take the necessary steps to stop the violence, even taking her/him anywhere they needed to go to start that train in motion.

I cannot imagine anyone who regularly attends any of our group gatherings taking anyone else off to the side to give them a tough love talk about how they handle themselves in their private (or professional, as I didn't see any indication that anyone was suggesting tough love for a group member who, for example, embezzles from the company) life. We are a group of adults (as defined by law in our state) who are pagans from many different paths and life experiences. We get together to share fellowship, study, spiritual experiences and ritual celebrations for what is known in Wicca as the eight Sabbats. Friendships have been formed (and some renewed), but none of us (to my knowledge) inserts themselves into the others' private lives as has been described here without an invitation to join that ride.

And again, my personal opinion is that the decision to undertake a "tough love" approach would be made as has been described by Terra Mater above - by a leader. Our group doesn't have a leader and the only "rule" we have is really an unwritten one. . . listen and respond with respect.

That sounds like a foreign concept in this thread, but it works for us.

[Vigdisdotter]

I think in a large group "tough love" goes on behind the scenes for the most part, while in a small group there can be more concensus among all the members about whether there is a problem and what should be done about it. So unless one is the leader of a large group they might not be aware of the need for "tough love" or see it taking place.

That makes good sense.

Another related issue that I've gone through myself is that "large" doesn't equal "healthy." Nor does "small" or any other designation. Which makes finding a group that is a safe environment for a seeker more then a little difficult.

[Vigdisdotter]

But that would be for conduct that occurred in my presence - not for hearing that it happened somewhere, sometime, etc.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to make the distinction. I haven't seen anyone relate relying on hearsay.

I cannot imagine anyone who regularly attends any of our group gatherings taking anyone else off to the side to give them a tough love talk about how they handle themselves in their private (or professional, as I didn't see any indication that anyone was suggesting tough love for a group member who, for example, embezzles from the company) life.

Why not? You just said you'd do it by calling the police. That IS "tough love." It's not nice and squishy. it's doing what needs doing to straighten out someone you care about before they hurt themselves or someone else.

And again, my personal opinion is that the decision to undertake a "tough love" approach would be made as has been described by Terra Mater above - by a leader. Our group doesn't have a leader and the only "rule" we have is really an unwritten one. . . listen and respond with respect.

Why? What if it's a situation where there is no leader? Not all groups are hierarchal in nature, as you yourself pointed out.

[Lunacie]

<snipped>

I cannot imagine anyone who regularly attends any of our group gatherings taking anyone else off to the side to give them a tough love talk about how they handle themselves in their private (or professional, as I didn't see any indication that anyone was suggesting tough love for a group member who, for example, embezzles from the company) life. We are a group of adults (as defined by law in our state) who are pagans from many different paths and life experiences. We get together to share fellowship, study, spiritual experiences and ritual celebrations for what is known in Wicca as the eight Sabbats. Friendships have been formed (and some renewed), but none of us (to my knowledge) inserts themselves into the others' private lives as has been described here without an invitation to join that ride.

And again, my personal opinion is that the decision to undertake a "tough love" approach would be made as has been described by Terra Mater above - by a leader. Our group doesn't have a leader and the only "rule" we have is really an unwritten one. . . listen and respond with respect.

That sounds like a foreign concept in this thread, but it works for us.

I agree that only behavior that impacts the group in some way is open to the application of Tough Love within the group. But when a person is participating in negative behavior, it generally impacts nearly every aspect of their lives, and a really caring group would try to help that person get straightened out.

To me, respect does not mean tolerating behavior or attitudes that cause harm to anyone, and I would try to find the best way of communicating my concern to let them know that I do care and let them know that it has become a problem for the group. At least that's how I handled it with the person who wanted to become a member of our group but her negative attitude was making her sick and was affecting the group energy.

[Vigdisdotter]

Well, since I'm picking your collective brains, I should probably answer my own question.

I think it's necessary, though one always hopes it's not. I personally find it a distasteful thing, but not a "hard" thing since I was a nanny for 12 years and come from the family background I do (where the "adults" rarely act it).

Ideally, I wouldn't e in that situation at all, because people woudl take responsibility for themselves and hold themselves accountable. But the ideal is not reality and whether I'm a leader of a group or a lay person, my first priority is the health and safety of the community. I take on that role, because it's in my nature to be such.

In my personal practise, community is very important to me and I've seen it torn to shreds because no one stood up and said something was harmful/needed changing. So, now I just try to walk my talk.

[brymble]

I am currently not involved with a group, part of the reason being the abuse of "tough love" and the imbalance of one person being able to use it over the rest of the group but not be on the recieving end of it herself. It resulted, apparently, in more members besides me leaving a situation in which this one person felt justified in meddling in others' relationships, and projecting her own issues onto others, or in dictating what someone's spiritual growth and progress should be. Myself and other members found ourselves dropping into rigid roles, with little room for the discomfort of change, which was seen as a disruption and would earn us some "tough love".

This was in a supposedly "consenus" group that had been of her founding and happened to meet on her property. While we respected her property and experience, it is simply not a true consensus if one member has more pull than the others, either overty stated or implied, or can interfere on a personal level under the guise of "tough love". Furthermore, even in a true consensus situation, there are some issues that are just personal and nobody's effing business. It just got annoying after awhile, so I lovingly cut contact with her. I honestly don't know what became of the rest of the group. I hope things improved, I really wanted to see that group thrive, and before she crossed the line into invasiveness, I did grow.

I do not think that she was an intentionally abusive, invasive, or "bad" person. But I do think that she was in need of a little "tough love" herself.

[Vigdisdotter]

I am currently not involved with a group, part of the reason being the abuse of "tough love" and the imbalance of one person being able to use it over the rest of the group but not be on the recieving end of it herself. It resulted, apparently, in more members besides me leaving a situation in which this one person felt justified in meddling in others' relationships, and projecting her own issues onto others, or in dictating what someone's spiritual growth and progress should be. Myself and other members found ourselves dropping into rigid roles, with little room for the discomfort of change, which was seen as a disruption and would earn us some "tough love".

To me, that's not "tough love" because there is nothing loving about it, though it does sound very self serving.

Such abuses are one of the reasons why I created this thread. In my town we have a spiritual predator. She loves to set herself up as the All Knowing Wise Teacher and then put the unsuspecting students through emotional wringers for her own amusement.

Any suggestions for those on the receiving end as to how to identify the real deal vs. the abuse?

[Twinkle]

Well...I don't use my feelings as a gauge as to whether I'm being abused or not. Sometimes I have felt hurt, bullied, steamrolled...but that was a defense mechanism because I didn't want to deal with the truth of the matter.

I think the best way to figure out if someone is applying tough love is if they have a bond with you, truly love you...and are able to express that love before the tough love starts. If they've tried to reach you in a more gentle way first, if they have been there for you through thick and thin...if on other occasions they have offered support.

Someone who comes in and starts in on you without truly knowing you is after their own ego stroke. It has nothing to do with love, and everything to do with power.

[brymble]

i think that it's flawed, and potentially dangerous thinking to assume it's either "tough love" or self-serving abusinveness. As I stated in my post above, I don't think it was her intent to be self-serving or abusive. I think she got caught up in the ego-drama of being an important person in the group, and was no longer conscious of the fact that she had ceased to listen and guide and had begun to manipulate and control. I think that's the greatest challenge to any kind of authority in a group, that unconscious manipulation is just that, unconscious. When the authority figure shifts their focus to other people and away from themselves, they very easily lose awareness of the real issues, and begin to project. But I don't think that's always a conscious or intentional thing. In fact, most of the time, it's not, which in a way makes it all the more insidious.

[Ivy Artemisia]

In a general Pagan context, maybe- between good friends. What other Pagans do in my social group, or whatever- its none of my business. I was brutally honest (in a caring way, of course ) while trying to help a friend with an eating dsorder- while she seemed fine with it, and happy that I cared at the time, she was angry at me for not minding my own business- she had written about it in her 'secret' blog- not so secret when you have mutual friends, eh? We mended fences, but it still was something that I've thought might have been handled in a different way.

In a group context- I'm in a small close-knit coven. My job as its leader is to do what is best for the group. And if we have a dedicant who rubs everyone the wrong way, or who intimidates people, or who is lazy or talking behind another sisters back- its my job to make sure that stops. Sometimes its explaining that their path lays elsewhere, sometimes its making sure that the problem is corrected and any misunderstanding is cleared up. Many of these instances result in a tough-love approach, and most of the time its REALLY difficult for me.

[Autumn]

It has been my understanding that "tough love" came about in the 1980's as a way of expressing to someone that, although you love and care for them very much and will support them in the hard work that's to come, "you" collectively are not going to condone support or ignore their destructive behavior any longer and they have two choices, Get help and change the behavior or hit the road. It was most commonly applied by parents of addicted teens in hopes of correcting the problem and it takes courage because there is always the risk that they will "hit the road" but usually by the time this ultimatum was issues life with this person had become so impossible that SOMETHING had to change.

I can see the need of close knit groups to occasionally employ this with folks whose behavior threatens the survival of the group in whatever way.


Cases of domestic abuse should be reported. If you are a teacher, doctor, or other form of "mandated reporter" you have to report what you know and may have to report if you have even a reasonable suspicion. Check the laws in your area to be sure.

Regarding mandated reporters, Most of the time we are not mandated to report domestic abuse between ADULTS where both parties are over the age of 18. There is an exception and that's child abuse and in some cases frail elders. that varies from state to state. As much as I abhor domestic abuse including it in mandated reporter law could endanger the victim. It might also motivate the abuser to prevent routine health care from taking place and so I'd be wary of such a law.

Additionally some legal responsibilities end when one is not at work. One may have a moral duty to report but in NY I'm not a mandated reporter unless I'm at work acting as a reasonable and prudent RN